Origin: Star of the County Down

Subject: Star of County Down..... Author ?
From: GUEST,Bawn
Date: 13 Jun 01 - 11:04 AM

Does anybdy kmow of the Author of "The Star of the County Down"

ta

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Star of County Down..... Author ?
From: IanC
Date: 13 Jun 01 - 11:10 AM

The tune's very old. There are already quite a few threads on this, so why not try the Lyrics & Forum Search?

Cheers!
Ian

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Star of County Down..... Author ?
From: MMario
Date: 13 Jun 01 - 11:14 AM

but the basic answer does appear to be "no"

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Star of County Down..... Author ?
From: Sorcha
Date: 13 Jun 01 - 11:16 AM

I thought his name was Trad Anon. (grin)

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Star of County Down..... Author ?
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 13 Jun 01 - 11:31 AM

The original tune is (with a different time sig) called 'Dives and Lazarus'. I've seen Cotswold Morris done to it, but whether it's from yer actual Morris corpus is unbeknownst to me.

Any hankie-wavers who know better?

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Star of County Down..... Author ?
From: pavane
Date: 13 Jun 01 - 11:45 AM

From a hankey waver (Ex Dubai-Sharjah Morris, ex Men of Sweyn's Ey, retired due to injury). Don't know about origins, but it is also used for a traditional song called Gilderoy (Scottish?).

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Star of County Down..... Author ?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 13 Jun 01 - 12:40 PM

According to Colm O'Lochlainn (referred to by John Moulden a few months ago on the Ballad-L list), the Star of the County Down lyric was written by Cathal McGarvey (who also wrote the words of The devil and bailiff McGlynn) some time in the early 20th century.  The tune, of course, is much older, and first appeared in Scotland; but you can easily search the Forum for more information about it, as people ask the same questions about it on a fairly regular basis.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Star of County Down..... Author ?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 03:13 AM

I've done a search for it and have been unable to establish an author. We are thinking of recording it and want to ensure there are no copyright issues

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Star of County Down..... Author ?
From: IanC
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 04:53 AM

Guest

I don't want to shout but it's very old. AT LEAST 500 YEARS. and THERE ARE NO COPYRIGHT ISSUES. Please see previous threads.

Cheers!
Ian

Subject: RE: Origin: Star of the County Down
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 11 Mar 12 - 06:55 PM

I just read somewhere that Cathal McGarvey wrote it...I shall go with that theory...mg

Subject: RE: Origin: Star of the County Down
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 11 Mar 12 - 07:00 PM

Well, his family says he wrote it. mg

http://ramelton.myfreeforum.org/archive/cathal-mcgarvey-writer-of-star-of-the-county-down__o_t__t_41.html

can't make a click on this computer...mg

Subject: RE: Origin: Star of the County Down
From: GUEST,Donal
Date: 11 Mar 12 - 08:24 PM

From the web address above 'did my great-grandfather have any children?'
Is he serious??

Subject: RE: Origin: Star of the County Down
From: KHNic
Date: 11 Mar 12 - 08:34 PM

Occasional extra verses have been added to this classic song.

Subject: RE: Origin: Star of the County Down
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 11 Mar 12 - 11:02 PM

This thread was started almost eleven years ago. No doubt the recording has been made and sold. Or not, as the case may be.

Subject: RE: Origin: Star of the County Down
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Mar 12 - 11:27 PM

What recording is it that may or may not have been recorded?

Subject: RE: Origin: Star of the County Down
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Mar 12 - 11:35 PM

GUEST,Donal, if something you read doesn't make sense to you, consider the possibility you simply didn't understand it. "I'm looking for some information on my great-grandfather (William McGarvey)'s brother, Cathal McGarvey.

Subject: RE: Origin: Star of the County Down
From: GUEST,Donal
Date: 12 Mar 12 - 07:58 AM

Too right Jeri, I hang my head in shame.
                                                          Donal

Subject: RE: Origin: Star of the County Down
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 12 Mar 12 - 10:13 AM

No, Jeri, the mistake was mine. I posted to the wrong thread.

Subject: RE: Origin: Star of the County Down
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 12 Mar 12 - 11:58 AM

I asked elsewhere if anyone knows when the song was wrottem.

One website says 1920, but that does seem rather late.

Subject: RE: Origin: Star of the County Down
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Mar 12 - 12:09 PM

There is also a church hymn that uses the same tune. It probably predates the popular version of the song.

Subject: RE: Origin: Star of the County Down
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 12 Mar 12 - 01:41 PM

"Written," not "rotten."

Subject: RE: Origin: Star of the County Down
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Jan 13 - 06:37 PM

For anyone who might like to experience this tune as played in Kuala Lumpur on moon lute, bawu, violin and electric organ with added angel wings:

Shanghai Angels

Subject: RE: Origin: Star of the County Down
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 09 Jan 13 - 07:01 PM

What fun, Jack! Plus "The Musical Priest"!

Subject: RE: Origin: Star of the County Down
From: ripov
Date: 09 Jan 13 - 08:54 PM

There is a cornish tune in the same family, "the Marigold", in "RACCA - cornish tunes for cornish sessions". Which says 'collected in 1830'.

Subject: RE: Origin: Star of the County Down
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 10 Jan 13 - 09:21 AM

"The Marigold" is certainly a close relative, with a similar shape and tonality, but it isn't quite "The Star."

An early melody virtually identical to "The Star" may exist somewhere under another title, but there are so many relatives around that it seems pointless to search for a precise match. It could easily have evolved without notice.

We don't even know if McGarvey set the tune himself: someone else may have turned McGarvey's verses into a song.

Subject: RE: Origin: Star of the County Down
From: Leadfingers
Date: 10 Jan 13 - 11:07 AM

I heard (Cant give a source) that The Star of the County Down was a Beauty Contest . Anyone know this ?

Subject: RE: Origin: Star of the County Down
From: Snuffy
Date: 10 Jan 13 - 12:27 PM

Well the Rose of Tralee started as a song, but is now also a beauty contest, so they could easily have done the same in County Down

Subject: RE: Origin: Star of the County Down
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Jan 13 - 12:39 PM

The Star of the County Down is, in one version of the song, a dog.

Subject: RE: Origin: Star of the County Down
From: GUEST,John Moulden
Date: 13 Jan 13 - 09:06 AM

Jack, I'd be interested if you could cite a source or quote the song where the Star of the County Down is a dog.

The song has been much parodied - as in the Belfast based "Star of the Eglantine"

In a snug retreat down in Garfield Street one evening last July,
Down the steps of a tram came a leg like a ham, And she smiled as she passed me by
She looked so fat from the crown of her hat, To her shoes that were size seventeen,
With a musquash coat from a long dead goat And a face like a new wide screen"

There's a chorus which is even less funny.

Subject: RE: Origin: Star of the County Down
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Jan 13 - 04:44 PM

Somebody in Edinburgh sings it. I'll try to record it next time. If I remember the storyline right, the dog is a greyhound that never wins anything, gets used as a guard dog, and in that capacity gets stolen by a burglar, to its owner's relief.

Subject: RE: Origin: Star of the County Down
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 13 Jan 13 - 06:35 PM

Other songs to same tune (and other threads about them!)
Van Diemen's Land
Crooked Jack

Subject: RE: Origin: Star of the County Down
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 02:11 AM

Wikipedia says! Wikipedia can be wrong but hey it's always worth a look eh?

Subject: RE: Origin: Star of the County Down
From: GUEST,Gealt
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 08:44 AM

< Date: 13 Jun 01 - 11:45 AM

From a hankey waver (Ex Dubai-Sharjah Morris, ex Men of Sweyn's Ey, retired due to injury).>>

Fell out of a tree, I should imagine. Familial location risk.

Subject: RE: Origin: Star of the County Down
From: GUEST,crazy little woman
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 10:57 AM

My copy of the Catholic song book 'Breaking Bread says that the tune used for 'Star of the County Down' is:

called 'Kingsfold'
is traditional English
was adapted by Ralph Vaughan Williams
appeared in 'English Country Songs', 1893

My Lutheran hymnal says the same but doesn't mention 1893.   

=========
People new to folk music may not realize that the tune of a song and its lyrics can live entirely separate lives. The lyrics seem to have been written by an Irishman, so that makes the 'Star of the County Down' Irish, in a sense.

However, if you want to record the tune, the fact that it was collected sometime in the 19th C. and then published in 1893 makes it a really safe bet.

Subject: RE: Origin: Star of the County Down
From: GUEST,John Moulden
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 04:22 PM

It was Irish before that: Colm O'Lochlainn knew it to a 19th century ballad sheet song called 'My Love Nell'. Also about 8 of the songs in the Sam Henry collection use the tune or a variant.

Subject: RE: Origin: Star of the County Down
From: GUEST,crazy little woman
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 05:20 PM

Okay. If it's even older than 1893, it's even more sure to be public domain.