AMERICAN ATTACKS---PART THREE

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS---PART THREE
From: Kernow John
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 04:16 PM

I have been trying all day to find the words and I still can't.
To all you 'catters out there and your families and friends my thoughts and prayers are with you.
God bless and keep you safe.
KJ

Subject: Poem from London's Blitz
From: Deda
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 04:19 PM

Here's a poem by the poet HD, written during ww2's London blitz, a time that was worse (because it went on and on and on) but not so bad (because the walls did NOT fall).

Still the walls do not fall,
I do not know why;

there is zrr-hiss,
lightning in a not-known,

unregistered dimension;
we are powerless

dust and power fill our lungs
our bodies blunder

through doors twisted on hinges,
and the lintels slant

cross-wise;
we walk continually

on thin air
that thickens to a blind fog,

then step swiftly aside,
for even the air

is independable,
thick where it should be fine

and tenuous
where wings separate and open,

and the ether
is heavier than the floor,

and the floor sags
like a ship floundering;

we know no rule
of procedure,

we are voyagers, discoverers
of the not-known

the unrecorded;
we have no map;

possibly we will reach haven,
heaven.
____ H.D. The Walls do not Fall (1942)

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS---PART THREE
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 04:20 PM

Amos, I heard part of that, too, and it sounded just like descriptions of why chidlren in the US join gangs.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS---PART THREE
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 04:20 PM

Amos, you would really enjoy and be frightened by the book I mentioned......"The Lion's Game" by Nelson DeMille........Like I said, I began to understand if not comprehend the mideast terrorist mindset.....

Spaw

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS---PART THREE
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 04:22 PM

Midchuck, today is my 69th birthday. I will never celebrate another without being reminded of the horrors of today. A few weeks before my thirteenth birthday I was among millions of Americans who rejoiced at the news that a hundred thousand Japanese died in Hiroshima and was disappointed when later death counts were more conservative (not yet taking in the many thousands who were yet to die). Nagasaki gave us another excuse to rejoice (no one told us of the fact that Nagasaki was the center of Christianity in Japan). I have since come to believe that the bombings were not necessary, that they were motivated more by our desire to intimidate the Russians than out of a belief that they were necessary to save American lives.

But I fully understand that in the heat of war, decisions are made in the heat of emotion, and can accept that with our feelings about Pearl Harbor and with the fact that the war was still going on, the decision to use the bomb was reasonable--at least for Hiroshima.

I have since come to believe that to rejoice at any killing is wrong: "Each man's death diminishes me, for I am involved in Mankind,"John Donne wrote. I would fight to defend my country, and would even fight to defend Israel and think it's right that the US do so, but I think that because we do so we have the right and duty to insist that Israel observe international law and recognize the human rights of the Palestinians, that Israel not become their former Nazi enemy and claim lebensraum.

I don't think Americans should have been bombed into extinction because of their elation over the destruction of a couple of Japanese cities, and I don't think the Palestinians should be bombed into destruction because of their joy at seeing whom they reasonably regard as their enemy suffer.

--seed(Charles Kratz--a long time Mudcatter who's been taking a sabbatical)

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS---PART THREE
From: Chicken Charlie
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 04:23 PM

This sad day emphasizes in a horrible way the shift from East-West to North-South polarization of the world.

While it is true, as a very few are saying, that the inhuman tactics of the terrorists should not blind us to the fact that the Palestinians have some things they are entitled to resent, what counts more to me is that the randomly chosen victims in the WTC and on board those planes had absolutely nothing to do with any of this. First priority is to look after survivors and help those with loved ones as yet unaccounted for.

After that, can we do anything to prevent equally unjustified attacks on Muslims in our local communities? Hope so.

Have to either get over a feeling of deep disatisfaction with the triviality of most of what I do for a living, or else harness that and go do something better.

Thanks, Catters from Europe and elsewhere, for your kind thoughts.

CC

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS---PART THREE
From: Drumshanty
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 04:30 PM

I have tried but cannot find the words to express my grief and shock at the enormity of this. My thoughts are with you all.

Tracy

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS---PART THREE
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 04:34 PM

Man, seed, what a lousy birthday.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS---PART THREE
From: nutty
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 04:40 PM

One question that has been in my mind concerns the structure which collapsed so easily.

It appears that the 110 storey building could not withstand what was the equivalent of a relatively small bomb .......WHY and why then was such a buiding allowed to be built??

Even if this was a terrorist attack ... they (the terrorists) had no way of knowing that such carnage would ensue. Perhaps vanity has a part to play as well.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS---PART THREE
From: Hoolet
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 04:40 PM

Our thoughts are with you all from one who lived at Lockerbie during Pan Am 103

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS---PART THREE
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 04:43 PM

Every thought I have is with you. This is horror beyond words. Evil came and visited New York and Washington today. Keep safe I am thinking of you all.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS---PART THREE
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 04:44 PM

McGrath, I hope that any response will be a reasoned one, and I believe it will be. Revenge against the actual perpretators is impossible because they are dead. Their organization, when identified, must be targeted and rendered impotent. But more important, areas of severe tension must be stabilized. There is so much frustration in the World that extremism and more attacks are inevitable unless something is done to alleviate it. Without the frustration, people like bin Ladin (sp.) would not be able to build terrorist groups. At present all we can do is wait to hear if friends and relatives are OK, and try to help those who have suffered loss.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS---PART THREE
From: MMario
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 04:44 PM

Nutty - a plane crashing into a building is a bit different from a "small bomb" - look at the damage that can occur at walking speed with an automobile - then make the vehicle much much bigger and going a lot faster.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS---PART THREE
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 04:46 PM

What an Inpossable day... THe local news stations around New York have shown many horoic people doing good in a horific situatoin. THe activity of doing something good and possative is the only sane responce open to "Men of God Will". "Peace to men of good will" is an activity in such a situation. Pease ( nonviolence is dangerous). My thanks to old freinds here for being here. THis is a good place to talk.. All the best , GUy<><><><><><><>>><><><><><>>>,.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS---PART THREE
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 04:46 PM

nutty, I am pretty sure, watching the video re runs that that there were secondary bombs set at critical sites in the buildings. Just a guess.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS---PART THREE
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 04:47 PM

What an Inpossable day... THe local news stations around New York have shown many horoic people doing good in a horific situatoin. THe activity of doing something good and possative is the only sane responce open to "Men of God Will". "Peace to men of good will" is an activity in such a situation. Pease ( nonviolence is dangerous). My thanks to old freinds here for being here. THis is a good place to talk.. All the best , GUy<><><><><><><>>><><><><><>>>,.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS---PART THREE
From: Amos
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 04:47 PM

They were sophisticated enought to synchronize the theft of four airlines, time their collisions with targets (except one) and fly them into buildings. They were quite sophisticated enough to assess the structural weaknesses of the WTC towers. I would hazard a guess that bomb-proofing was not part of the original specification for those towers, nor the budget. They were strong enough to stand comfortably for years in all kinds of whether. Maybe noone thought they would be military targets.

A

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS---PART THREE
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 04:48 PM

I was just sent an office number for Larry's (InOBU) wife. I rec'd it because of the similarity of his band name/my name. I tried to call it, and rec'd no answer......

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS---PART THREE
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 04:48 PM

What an Inpossable day... THe local news stations around New York have shown many horoic people doing good in a horific situatoin. THe activity of doing something good and possative is the only sane responce open to "Men of Good Will". "Peace to men of good will" is an activity in such a situation. Pease ( nonviolence is dangerous). My thanks to old freinds here for being here. THis is a good place to talk.. All the best , GUy<><><><><><><>>><><><><><>>>,.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS---PART THREE
From: Deda
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 04:48 PM

Seed, my sympathies for having your b'day ruined. My own son's b'day is April 20th. On his 21st b'day 15 kids died at Columbine high school -- and we live in Colorado. I would say that your birth, like his, is nevertheless something worthy of celebration, albeit, today at least, with a little solemnity.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS---PART THREE
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 04:53 PM

Not to mention that the amount of FUEL on a coast-to-coast flight, as all of these planes were intended to be, makes this a HUGE mo'fo' bomb.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS---PART THREE
From: GUEST,AliUk
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 04:54 PM

'spaw. I read that book and know exactly what you are talking about. Also...for those who live in the UK, my hometown has a very large population of muslims and they are hard to comprehend. Their intepretations of the koran are even more subjective than many christian interpretation of the bible and they seem to take and twist God's words how they wish them to be. They have a fanaticism that I personally have always believed would be the cause of world war more than the soviet threat ever was. Now this does not mean that I believe that allo muslims are fundamentalist fanantics, buit they sure do breed more of them than most. the war in th Palestine is between Israel and the Palestinians, why the hell do we need to get involved? See what happens!

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS---PART THREE
From: Mr Red
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 04:56 PM

Sorry but I ain't go no jokes in me tonight.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS---PART THREE
From: John Hardly
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 04:56 PM

Well, this is rich.

I've been listening to NBC all day and it is there implicit editorial position that we had it coming to us.

More specifically, it is the new administration's fault for re-affirming our commitment to alliance with Israel.

Why it would not instead occur to them (NBC) to take this as affirmation that we have chosen our allies more correctly and that, by action, the Arabs have proven themselves to be no friend of ours is beyond me.

I have no problem with an Arabs as a race, as individuals, ethnically. I think racism is highly immoral. But if I had to fly somewhere tomorrow, and American or United Airlines offered a choice between non-smoking or Arab-free, I'd fly Arab free airlines.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS---PART THREE
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 04:59 PM

I think I have found a home number for InOBU---should I try it? Does someone who knows him better than I do want to try? PM me, and I'll give you the number.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS---PART THREE
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 04:59 PM

I have Larry's number, but the circuits are understandably all busy. Same thing with Dan's.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS---PART THREE
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 05:00 PM

I hope that any response will be a reasoned one, and I believe it will be. I hope you are right Dicho. But the precedents on this kind of thing aren't too enouraging.

As for the WTC collapse - I'd suspect gas explosions and electrtrical explosions and so forth would be more likely than carefully coordinated secondary bombs planted. If whoever did it had the people and orgaisation in place for that, I'd have thought they'd have been more likely to target additional buildings.

The reason I say that is not because the technical ins-and-outs of it are what matter at this time. They are not. But there is a danger of exaggerating the powewr and ability to stroke of an invisible enemy, and that is a dangerous thing to do. It feeds into the kind of panic in which bad mistakes are made. I'm thinking of things like the internment camps for Japanese Americans in the wake of Pearl Harbour.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS---PART THREE
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 05:00 PM

Should we keep trying, kat, or back off a while????

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS---PART THREE
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 05:03 PM

Sorcha - call, definitely.

"They" are at war with "us" whether "we" are at war with "them" or not.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS---PART THREE
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 05:05 PM

Whoever did it also chose commercial airliners on their way to the west coast with large amounts of fuel in their tanks, which, I'm sure, contributed to the damage. Amazingly, they also chose planes with many less passengers than capacity.

Even spending all day here at Mudcat and on several news sites and listening to the radio and seeing photographs, it's still totally unreal. That this many innocent people could be killed to, what? Make a point? God help us ALL.

Bat Goddess

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS---PART THREE
From: mkebenn
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 05:06 PM

So much pain, so much loss, so much danger, and yet, to me , the citizens of NYC are shining as millions of individual heros.. I am afraid of the future.. Mike

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS---PART THREE
From: Jack The Lad
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 05:08 PM

Our thoughts and prayers are with you all. with the victims and with the bereaved. with the shocked and with the numbed with the torn and with the mamed with the blind and with the mislead violence and terror will not conquer

Jack The Lad- in Israel

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS---PART THREE
From: Amos
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 05:10 PM

We all are. The question is whether to retreat from it, or step up to it with the intent to better it.

Either choice has scary sides, but one has rewards.

A.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS---PART THREE
From: Penny S.
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 05:20 PM

My thoughts and prayers are with all the victims - which probably means all of you in and from the United States. I am finding it almost impossible to grasp. Only by comparing the tragedy with natural disasters can I make sense of the scale. Making sense of people who would take innocent travellers and use them as a bomb to destroy even more people is not possible.

Again, my inadequate sympathy is with you.

penny

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS---PART THREE
From: jeffp
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 05:23 PM

My 18-year-old stepdaughter wrote this in response to today's events and asked me to share it with you.

911
by Emily Pennington, 2001

Words nor sayings ain't nothin'...
The world will continue frontin'
Sh*t, we livin' in our last days -
It don't matter what nobody says or will say.
Our destinies are chosen
Still we need to stay strong and keep focus
Regardless, life can be hard... Don't dare let that tear us apart.
Even though, every day we strive
Keep hope alive.
I beg of you - don't give up yet.
For one day, justice we shall get...
Faith may be the only true investment.
Motha' f*ckers ain't truly ready for this testin'...
But realize life is precious -
As much as lust bein' lucious...
Give up,
Then we're all stuck.
God's in control
So let life go on and roll.
Remember, play every dat
And never let a moment slip away....

*911*
God bless all of us...

Just one young person's view on things. For your consideration.

jeffp
God help us all.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS---PART THREE
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 05:24 PM

Black bands on my rowan and "who knows" trees, also on my car antenna..........

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS---PART THREE
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 05:27 PM

GOOD poem, Emily P.....spot on!!

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS---PART THREE
From:
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 05:29 PM

This is the first chance I've had of getting to the 'Cat since hearing the news.

Like everyone else I can only offer my heartfelt sympathy.

I also pray that the response from the US follows the Lockerbie model not that following the bombing of the US Embassies. Quite apart from the questionable morality of a military response I would suggest it would be unlikely to be of any paractical use. One would expect that any group with the sophistication to organise this attack will also have anticipated such a response and dispersed, probably prior to the attack.

Once again sympathy to all US 'catters.

Pete M

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS---PART THREE
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 05:30 PM

E mail sent to Larry----surely they will check that when they can.........fingers crossed, toes too.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS---PART THREE
From: flattop
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 05:31 PM

Amos, you might also want to look at Eric Hoffer's book 'The True Believer.'

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS---PART THREE
From: GUEST,X-Ed
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 05:35 PM

GIVE BLOOD! I gave today and the wait was not bad at all. Treatment was top notch. I was informed on a "normal" day the blood banks need 800 donors a day. 11 Sept. 2001 is far from normal. Please do what you can for our fellow Americans. I was so intrusive I went up to strangers and suggested they follow suit. I wish the responses were more positive.

Time for payback. Maybe we should get additional blood donations from the nations that support terrorism.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS---PART THREE
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 05:37 PM

I wish I could give blood. Even for those of us who can out here, there is no place to do it. Local hosp not set up, local blood bank too small to have the personell, etc. I will send $$$ to ARC instead.........that is about all I can do.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS---PART THREE
From: GUEST,X-Ed
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 05:40 PM

Encourage others too!

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS---PART THREE
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 05:41 PM

I am, I am....

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS---PART THREE
From: jeffp
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 05:49 PM

I live in the Baltimore-Washington area. Local blood donation centers are reporting 4 to 6 hour waits. They are staying open and processing donations 24 hours a day.

jeffp

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS---PART THREE
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 05:53 PM

Blood will be transferred to affected areas from all over the country, making blood supplies low for some period of time everywhere until they are made up. You can make a big impact by giving now, but if you cannot give now, it will still mean a lot of you can give later.

Please, if you are going to give blood, eat something first!

~Susan

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS---PART THREE
From: Whistleworks
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 05:54 PM

We will all get through this, as we have in the past. We are a tough bunch. And, as Robert Schuller once said, "Tough times never last, but tough people do".

My thoughts are with the families of those who we lost today.

Bob Pegritz

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS---PART THREE
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 05:55 PM

Phone lines into NYC still overloaded........my cousin is in San Diego and can't get home......

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS---PART THREE
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 06:00 PM

Apparently Afghanistan is being bombed

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS---PART THREE
From: Cobble
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 06:01 PM

Our thoughts are with you all in US, we lit a candle in the window...

Brian and Margaret