Fly the FLAG!!!

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,Canadian flag
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 04:27 PM

I think that the story about the Canadian flag pretty much represents the difference between Americans and others in regards to attitudes about freedom. If the situation was reversed, the Americans would have told their neighbors to got to hell and would have kept their flag flying rather than obediantly lowering it and then whining about it for the next forty years. Or, if the Canadians had told other neighbors about the episode, their choice to fly a Canadian flag would have been defended. Thats why Americans are so vocal about freedom, because they are willing to talk the talk and walk the walk.

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 05:15 PM

GUEST - You're quite right...we should've told 'em to go to hell, but it has more to do with my Mother than my nationality...she's the kind of person who will cut off her own nose and ears to please her neighbours (and hate them inside forever while doing it!). As for my Dad, he never thinks about anything except his business, and I doubt he gave it more than 30 seconds thought, if he gave it any thought at all. He may even have been away at the time, I don't quite remember.

He is definitely tough enough to tell the other guy to "go to hell" and defend his own rights, but it wasn't the kind of situation he gives any thought to. Now had it been a situation involving business, money, or real property, he would have gone out happily to fight the whole town. He never backs down.

As for me, I was ten years old.

Nevertheless, your point is not completely without relevance as a general observation. Americans are more vocal than Canadians on the whole, when it comes to their "rights".

Now Mexicans...try trampling on a Mexican's honor and he will as likely as not stick a knife in your guts right then and there. Life is cheap in Mexico.

I'm not exactly sure who is on the best track here, but it's good to know what to expect in one place or another, isn't it?

- LH

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,Canadian Flag
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 05:23 PM

I think that your discussion of your Father's attitude toward the situation provides some more insight into American vs. Canadian attitudes regarding the value of freedom (as opposed to "business, money, or real property"). But, enough said. On a different note, you might want to rethink the blanket statement that "Life is cheap in Mexico." That type of stereotyping is at the root of a lot of Arab-bashing this week. However, even if that were true, an important point is that Americans (like your composite Mexican) will fight like hell for their own honor and freedom, but will generally stick theit neck out for others as well.

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 06:01 PM

Hmmmm...well, my Dad is originally from Czechoslovakia, but I wouldn't say he's a typical Czech, whatever that is. He's just himself, period.

I love the Mexicans as a people. They are very passionate. I would not recommend behaving foolishly down there. There is terrible poverty, and there are lots of heavily armed police who are IMO little more than criminal bully-boys in uniform (with, I'm sure, some notable exceptions to that). To say life is cheap there...well, it is compared to North America, but that doesn't in any way denigrate Mexicans in my eyes. They are a noble people.

Canadians are a moderate lot. It may have to do with the immense geography and sparse population, or it may have to do with a very peaceful domestic history in which there has been almost no civil conflict, and no "wild west" or "outlaw" period...the rule of law preceded settlement in the Canadian West and was very well maintained by the RCMP (Mounties), who went in ahead of the settlers.

We do, however, seem to make excellent soldiers, given the experience of both world wars, when Canadian troops distinguished themselves again and again, and were among the very best.

Darned if I know how it all adds up at the end of the day.

- LH

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 10:29 PM

Little Hawk, it is NOT illegal to fly foreign flags in the US. The people who told you that are idiots. Now, there are rules of etiquette pertaining to the US flag, for instance, that if you fly the US flag along with any flag, the other flag isn't supposed to be higher, etc. But anyway, as I understand, those rules were invented and promoted by organizations like the American Legion and do not have the force of law.

It USED TO BE illegal to burn the US flag publicly, but the Supreme Court wisely overturned that law in, I think, 1993. (I remember I was in England when I got the news.)

On many occasions I have seen people display other flags right here in St. Paul. For example, an Irish pub I know displays the Irish flag, and a pub with a British theme flies a British flag. I've never heard of anyone objecting. I've seen private homes fly various flags, too.

At Holden Village, Washington, a Lutheran retreat center, every building flies the flag of a different country. I don't think any of them is American. It's helpful for visitors to identify which building is which, because many of them otherwise look alike. I'm sure they wouldn't do it if it were illegal or if many people were offended by it.

In fact, I think any law against flying a foreign flag would probably be unconstitutional. If you have a constitutional right to burn the American flag, I can't see why you wouldn't equally well have the constitutional right to display a foreign one. Even aliens living in the US have rights under the constitution.

Come to think of it, during the Elian Gonzalez affair, I remember seeing Cuban-Americans flying HUNDREDS of Cuban flags.

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Uncle Jaque
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 10:32 PM

Peg - if you're still in here; It seems that "Pseudolus" and I are pretty much on the same page, here, and I think he just articulated it about as well as I could. My comments about those who use their taking "offence" in order to manipulate others were in no way intended to introduce any salt into wounds so greivously and recently inflicted such as yours.

Despite any differences we might otherwise have, you have my condolances... as well, it seems, as the thoughts, prayers, positive energy, comforting mantras etc. of most of the Civilized World. As unspeakably devistating as your pain surely is tonight, we can be sure that you - as well as the legions of your fellow victims of this treacherous act - are in the hearts and minds of people of all Nationalities, religions, colors, creed and language.

The candles my Wife and I carried out to the street at 7 PM tonight were as much for you and your lost Beloved as for anyone.

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Troll
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 10:52 PM

Actually, a flag that is being "retired" should be burned; reverently and with dignity.

troll

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 11:06 PM

Tonight, my community came together with candles and flags.

Neighbors who had never met before were united across streets and blocks.

We talked, we shared our pain and prayers and hopes. Tomorrow, the neighborhood will be covered with flags.

The original posting by "GUEST" was me....I did not want my "reputation" to taint this thread.....there are some "pretty creepy folks within this thread" and THEY think they are RIGHT. Yellow is not my favorite color!

Sincerely, GARGOYLE

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 11:15 PM

On the cover of this morning's St.Paul pioneer Press, there was a large photo of a US soldier, crouched on the ground, apparently sobbing, with a flag pulled over his shoulders like a cape and dragging on the ground. Now, I'm no patriot and it didn't really bother me, but it seemed pretty odd and disrespectful for a soldier to do that.

Oh, nad since it looks like you're around, Troll, and you seem to know about flag rituals, I'll ask you: I thought once a flag touches the ground, it has to be burned... Is that true? Just curious. :)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 11:26 PM

Here's the soldier-draped-in-a-flag picture... For no real reason. Just because I CAN link to it.

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Troll
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 11:26 PM

Yes.

troll

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Uncle Jaque
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 11:53 PM

According to the American Legion pamphlet on "Flag Etiquette", which contains the "United States Flag Code", Title 36, Chapter 10, US Code, Paragraphs 170-178, and commentary by the American Legion National Americanisim Commission. Actually now that I mention it, I think I'm supposed to be our Post's "Americanisim Officer", and to this day I'm not quite sure exactly what "Americanisim" is supposed to be all about, or what I'm supposed to be doing to advance it. But here goes a lame attempt, eh?:

The 1976 Congressional Revision of the Code stipulates that it is "simply a guideline" and that "no penalties are provided for violation..." The booklet goes on, however, to warn that "Misuse and improper display (like upside down on the arse of your jeans, I would imagine) will, however, most likely incur ridicule and harassment from those more familiar with these provisions." So there. (Sheesh!)

During the '60s and '70's, some Veteran's groups seemed to get a little anal-retentive about the "flag code" and arguably might have, shall we say, "gone overboard" with it on occasion, creating perhaps some lingering, popular misconceptions.

As to "touching the ground" (or anything beneath it), Ch. 176 (b) suggests that it should be avoided, but apparantly is no great sacralidge if it accidentilly happens. I think that some Military regulations impose consequences similar to what you describe, especially the Marine Corps - but I'm not sure about that. And yes, the proper way to dispose of a retired flag is by burning "in a dignified way"(k). We encourage people to turn them in when buying a new one at selected stores participating in the program (some offer discounts on a new flag for turn-in of a comparable old one), or to local Veteran's organizations. I have the fellows at the "recycling Center" (formerly the "Dump") look out for flags that might get pitched out in the trash, and they collect them for us. Once a year, the Sons of Union Veterans or the Legion conducts a fitting disposal ceremony, as I have described.

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Troll
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 12:08 AM

I learned what I know about the treatment of the Flag from my Dad, a carer army officer so the "never touch the ground" thing may stem from that.
Thanks for the info.

troll

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Peg
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 12:20 AM

Just to clarify; no my "true love" did not burn to death on Tuesday. (I was quoting the title of a traditional song) But there are are THOUSANDS of people whose loved ones DID burn to death. And I do feel that crowing about patriotism in loud voices that overshadow expressions of grief is in poor taste.

I do not mean to criticize anyone who is coping in the ways that work best for them. My objection is to those who at this time are much more interested in "kicking butt" and blathering about how great America is, instead of acknowledging the very human, direct efects of this tragedy. If wearing the colors of the flag helps you, as you are also giving blood and lighting candles and praying and hugging your children, it is certainly not my place to criticize that.

I have heard from a number of my loved ones who live and work in the city. But not all of them. I pray I am one of the bedraggled survivors who does not lose someone I treasure as a friend. But I do not know yet.

"Each man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind...therefore, never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."

John Donne

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Troll
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 12:45 AM

From: Peg Date: 14-Sep-01 - 11:03 AM Fuck the red, white and blue. Black is the colour of my true love's hair; especially since she got burned to death on Tuesday morning.

(sorry but all this bigdick patriotism amid the stench of rotting corpses seems inapropriate. Date: 15-Sep-01 - 12:20 AM

Just to clarify; no my "true love" did not burn to death on Tuesday. (I was quoting the title of a traditional song).

Right. Now which traditional song were you quoting that has as part of it's title; "especially since she got burned to death on Tuesday morning"?
I'm 60 years old and I've been around traditional music all my life. I cannot recall a song with that title.
To my way of thinking, I have seldom seen a more tasteless ploy to elicit sympathy and support for a position.
If you don't like "bigdick patrioism" and people flying the flag, say so. Everyone here would respect your right to your opinion.
I won't suggest that you apologize because I suspect that you wouldn't really understand why it was necessary.

troll

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Peg
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 12:53 AM

Troll, stop being such an asshole.

"Black is the Colour of My True Love's Hair" is a traditional song known by many (perhaps not by you; aparently your advanced age and vast experience are not so superior as you think). Perhaps the semi-colon should have tipped you off as to which words comprised the title.

I did NOT try to elicit sympathy or "support" nor was it a PLOY; you sick, arrogant dickhead.

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Troll
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 12:56 AM

I rest my case.

troll

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Peg
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 12:59 AM

Yeah, and I rest MY case. Asshole.

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 01:14 AM

Here's the Flag Code according to the American Legion. And here are the Legion's Flag FAQ's, one of which addresses the question asked earlier, whether a flag that touches the ground should be destroyed.

Note that the Legion officially supports the idea of a constitutional amendment to restore criminal penalties for "desecrating" the flag, which I do not support. While I can go along with most of the Legion's ideas about the flag, I strongly disagree with this position. You can't "desecrate" what was never sacred to begin with. Treating the flag as sacred seems dangerously close to idolatry to me.

The flag is a symbol, no more, no less. Flying it is a symbolic act, and burning it is a symbolic act. Symbolic acts are not in the same class with other kinds of acts. They are forms of communication, ways of communicating an idea. The only proper way to fight a bad idea is by promoting a better idea. Putting someone in jail for performing a symbolic act ought to be universally condemned as tyranny.

Lepus, I agree that the picture of the soldier wrapped in the flag was in bad taste.

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 01:26 AM

I dunno. When I read it, I didn't think Peg was being literal with the "black is the colour of my true love's hair" reference. She cleared up the confusion. Nothing to get bent out of shape about...

Jim, yeah, it was pretty bizarre. Can't wait to read the letters in tomorrows paper, eh?

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 08:58 AM

I've displayed my American flag on my house on a busy highway since I moved into this house over 13 years ago. I would display my flag if I lived in California, Texas, Wyoming, Arkansas, Virginia, New York, etc. I would not diplay my American flag if I lived in Canada, Argentina, the UK, Germany, India, Japan, etc.

I love the flag and all it represents. I try to follow etiquette and always bring it inside at night or during rain. Every time I diplay it I say a prayer for ________, ___________, and ___________, and a general prayer for every person who has lost his/her life for my country and for those presently serving. There are many.

I'm deeply offended by some of the comments above!

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 09:25 AM

Peg, I think your 'initial' post was EXCEEDINGLY badly done...

Best let it drop, eh?

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Peg
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 09:27 AM

Thank you, Lepus.

I regret that anyone was confused or misled by that post. But to be accused of doing so deliberately by a war-mongering moron makes me want to puke.

I also want to say that I have been greatly moved by the prominent display of the American flag by OTHER nations yesterday. I saw this on the news and these displays all seemed borne of deep respect and solidarity.

I am still finding the rather militant display of the flag in the U.S. a bit disturbing however; I am not referring to those quietly carrying or erecting them; but those waving them madly as they march through the streets chanting, screaming "USA! USA!" as I saw happened in Boston's North End yesterday. Surely a more solemn ceremony on a day of mourning was what was called for. Carrying the flags in silence, for example.

Young people are enlisting in droves. I respect their courage. I fear for our future.

God help America.

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 09:42 AM

Admirably done, IMO

(& I hope that you & 'troll' can make your peace with each other)

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 09:44 AM

Jim - Yeah, I know it's not illegal to fly a foreign flag in the USA. It was an attitude we ran into back in 1958, not a legal situation. If we'd been in a different town with more pleasant neighbours, it probably would not have happened. The 2 guys who objected were most of the time so busy feuding with each other (across our backyard) that they didn't have energy left to fight with us. Thankfully. They were weird.

Best wishes,

Little Hawk

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 09:54 AM

In my town we're twinned with towns in the Czech Republic and in France, so those flags are flown in the shopping centre all the time, along with the Union Jack. The European flag gets flown outside the Town Hall a lot of the time, and the flag of the UN, and I'm sure we'd fly the World Flag as well if we had it. And sometimes it's the Harlow Flag. All at half-mast this week.

Over in Tipperary last week there'd have been flags outside pretty well every house, and they'd have been the Tipperary Flag, because it was the All Ireland Hurling Final against Galway - and they'll still be there now, because Tipp won, and this weekend it's the Camogie final, which is the women's version of the game, and Tipp is in that too. But noone flies that flag because they hate any other county, and if anyone from Galway had been living in Tipp and chose to fly the Galway flag noone would have worried about that either.

Flags are a symbol that you love your country (for example) and if anyone ever flies a flag as a symbol that they hate some other country, or hate some other people, that is the only real way of desecrating it. And sadly, as katlaughing reminded us, there are people who do that sometimes, and in places where that happens to fly that flag would seem like sharing in that desecration.

I see they've got a World Flag T-shirt. I might get one of those, since I haven't got a flagpole.

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Peg
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 09:59 AM

Paul from Hull;

Like I said, I had NO INTENTION whatsoever of misleading anyone, and I am hurt anyone would even think me capable of such a thing, let alone accuse me of doing it.

I do not feel a need to apologize for my initial post; as I said, I regret anyone's confusion as a result of it because adding to another's stress at this terrible time pains me. But I did not think it was something that was obviously meant in a literal way; especially among people familiar with traditional music...

My post above was not a reply to yours, Paul. But thanks, anyway.

I do not appreciate being told to let something DROP when there are clearly still people who harbor bad feelings about it. That makes it seem like I must slink away in shame because someone is still offended. And maybe some wil remain offended by my take on this (not my probem). But if they are offended because I have not been clear about where I stand, it is up to me to correct that.

I DID feel a need to clarify and detail my thoughts on the different sorts of flag waving and patriotism happening around me; because, in my opinion, some of it is appropriate, and some of it is not. But I am not opposed to the flag in general. I am happy for anything, symbolic or otherwise, that gives people comfort right now.

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 10:14 AM

Peg, I knew you were not being literal in your intitial post, but I think, as soon as the messages of sympathy started, you should have come in and clarified. It went on too long without that, with people genuinely believng you'd had a personal loss. I think that is what might have offended and it could have been cleared up more quickly, had you posted immediately after the expresions of sympathy started.

kat

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Peg
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 10:17 AM

kat;

excuse me for HAVING A LIFE, but I did not SEE those messages of sympathy until I posted last night. I cleared it up as soon as I knew about the confusion.

If that is not good enough, I guess I deserve to be bitch-slapped some more for it.

Not everyone is at their computer for 16 hours a day...

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 10:21 AM

Sorry if I have made you feel uncomfortable Peg...

I just suggested that you drop it, but to my mind you have clarified you position & original intent very well, & I retract what I said about 'dropping' the matter.

Best wishes,

Paul

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 10:26 AM

Peg, can one express their opinion without you going off on them? I know we have all been on edge this week, but we don't need to get so nasty with one another. Whether you are on the computer or not, that was a provocative post and it would have been much better had you checked it earlier. That is all I am saying.

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 10:57 AM

PMs ?

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Peg
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 11:20 AM

PMs? or PMS???

;)

Paul from Hull, thanks, I just want to make sure I can communicate as well as possible right now. Not sure I can, but..

Kat, you implied I "let this go on too long" when I did not KNOW about it! Like I did so intentionally. I see that as an inappropriate accusation. Not an "opinion." And I see such an accusation as "nasty," too, thank you very much.

I have made it clear what I did and did not intend with that post; if people misinterpreted it, that is too bad and I have done what I can about it.

Expecting me to live at my computer JUST IN CASE someone gets their knickers in a knot about something I posted to a goddamned message board is ridiculous. Gee, I wish I could travel back in time and RESPOND MORE QUICKLY to posts that occurred while I was out having a life.

Shall I stop seeing friends and loved ones in this time of tragedy so I can monitor the Mudact 24-7? Would that make you happy?

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Peg
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 11:33 AM

I am sorry if I sound so cranky. I just cannot get over being accused of lying about losing someone in this tragedy. That would be such a horrible thing for someone to do, no matter what their motivation. So forgive me if this stuff I am typing is overreaction (to anyone but Troll).

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Gervase
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 12:19 PM

Peg, et al,
Over-reacting? Maybe - but what precedent is there for our reactions?
On this side of the Atlantic we have had our share of rubble, violent death and destruction, with the inevitable stark images of shattered buildings and broken lives; Guildford, Birmingham, Warrington, Bishopsgate, Enniskillen, Omagh and dozens more.
All of them have made an impact on our national consciousness, and all of them have led to cries for vengeance and retribution that inflamed rather than salved an age-old wound.
Those attrocities - and attrocities they were - cannot singly or together compare in enormity to what happened on Tuesday.
So there really is no yardstick for reaction - which for me is very worrying, as the rhetoric and bullshit flies and both the fond and the foolish reach for a flag in which to wrap themselves.
Time, maybe, to remember the wise words of someone else to whom both our countries have reason to give thanks - Tom Paine.
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good."
So don't apologise m'dear. Not to me, at least!

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: SINSULL
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 01:20 PM

Little Hawk:"Now Mexicans...try trampling on a Mexican's honor and he will as likely as not stick a knife in your guts right then and there. Life is cheap in Mexico."

This is a sick, racist obscenity. Please think before you post.
Mary

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 01:32 PM

My guess is that a World Flag would have little appeal in Afghanistan. The fact is, the American Flag does represent a shared culture and shared values, and one that has little in common with other parts of the world. Until the World can be brought together in a shared vision, a World Flag is meaningless.

Today I fly the flag that was given to me at my Father's funeral, in honor of his service in the Second World War. I shall fly it in remembrance of him, and in sorrow for the loss of so many innocent victims in the recent tragedy, and in hope that we shall be wise and strong in the coming days.

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: DougR
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 01:54 PM

I didn't view the many pictures of people on TV waving flags and chanting U.S.A as encouraging military action myself. I viewed it as a symbol of solidarity, and that is what is going to be required in the days ahead. That's just my view, of course, and I am not criticizing anyone else for viewing it differently.

DougR

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Troll
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 03:16 PM

Peg, I apologize for my misinterpretation of the motives behind your initial post. Since you say my interpretation was wrong, I apologize.
However, the statement about your "true love" burning to death was not true and, although you say it was not meant literally I -and others- did not know that.
In your clarification post you expressed no regret that anyone might have been misled. That didn't come until later.
So I apologize again for my misinterpretation, and I accept your expression of regret that I and others were misled.
But YOU made a false statement (however pure your motives) and I see no reason why I should have to apologize for pointing it out.

troll

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 03:24 PM

Do whatever you want, Peg. It doesn't matter if it makes me happy or not. I do not look to you for my happiness. I know when I have suffered a great loss, such as when my mother died, I did check back here, often, to get what comfort I could from those who posted the condolences.

Oh yeah, I sit on my ass at the computer 16 hours a day and have no friends, no life, right? Your implications that some, who may spend more time on the computer than you, don't "have a life" are judgemental and prejudicial.

Now, I apologise for going off, too. but I will not apologise for my opinion. I agree with troll.

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 03:35 PM

PMs = Personal Messages, in this case. Head to head conflicts are maybe better not on the threads, because it gets catching.

One problem with Mudcat time is that it sometime runs very fast. If you don't check the times, it can look like a long time has passed between two successive posts by the same person.

In this case it just over 24 hours between Peg's misleading post, and the one from her clarifying the situation. Only the posts are going so fast at this time, and what would normally be recognised as figurative language was in fact only too horribly plausible as a statement of literal fact. Emotions are very raw at present.

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Troll
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 03:40 PM

Thanks Kevin. My last post was public because I was asked to make it so. Your analysis of the situation is quite probably correct.

troll

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 03:53 PM

SINSULL - Maybe you're right. ("You're right from your side, I'm right from mine" - Dylan)

I did see more fights in Mexico (and really violent ones, sometimes with knives) in one short period of 3 months than I am used to seeing around here over the course of five or ten years, but...maybe I've just been lucky (around here, I mean).

I qualified it by saying that I have a great admiration for the Mexican people, which I do. No country is perfect, and every society has its flaws.

Life was cheap in Dodge City in the 1800's. Is that a racist statement? (Guess not. Ain't no one still alive from there to contest it! Whew!)

Middle-class North Americans have a strong tendency to be shopaholics and to eat junk food. Is that a racist statement?

Some places are more dangerous than others. Downtown Washington D.C. is far more dangerous than downtown Toronto, Canada. Is that a racist statement?

Is the stating of a plainly observable situation necessarily racist? I said "as likely as not"...meaning one Mexican might, while another might not...I have seen people pull knives in Mexico. I've also known plenty of those who I am quite sure would not do that.

Check the crime statistics for Mexico City. Check 'em for Washington D.C.

I don't expect to necessarily convince you of anthing, Mary, but I have noticed that we seem destined to butt heads for some reason, and that's unfortunate.

I know I am living in a world now where there are numerous constituencies of people around about whom you can make no public statement that might be deemed critical in any way by anyone else, even if you didn't intend it to be critical in the first place, and even if it's TRUE, without being accused of "racism" or "sexism" or some other "ism", and I am intimidated enough about that already to have no intention of even suggesting who those constituencies might be...

I call that a form of fascism. It is to silence people through fear, so that they dare not speak on certain subjects except to blandly parrot the officially accepted line...said line being promulgated by various groups with a chip on their shoulder, and an agenda that is self-serving and based on a cult of victimhood and innate moral superiority, not on a perception of human equality.

In the 60's and 70's I spoke out many times in defence of some of those groups, and tried to be one of those who helped them achieve equality. I now see many of their spokesmen and members caught up in a viciously reactive psychology that is based not on equality whatsoever, but on zenophobic hatred and thoughts of superiority. It's naked fascism in action, but it is not acknowledged as such.

No one dares to call it what it is, especially no one in the public arena, and this is a public forum. If you listen to the private conversations of ordinary people all over the place you will hear plenty that they will not dare to say publicly...and I am speaking of good and kindly inclined people who are not racists, indeed who have fought quietly for racial equality all their lives.

That's why I laugh at the notion that we are living in a "free" society. It's freer than some, all right, but it's got a long way to go.

As for Mexicans...I have always liked Mexicans and I regard them as fully equal in human value to me or you or anyone else in every sense. Not identical, but equal.

If any of this is still offensive, well, I will have to live with being thought of as "racist" by someone, I guess...

To succeed in never offending anyone can become a full time job, and a thankless one, but what is the reward for such a course of action, and what happens to one's own identity in the process?

"Oh, Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood" (not a Dylan quote)

Now, excuse me, I've got to move some furniture and stuff...

- LH

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: SharonA
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 03:57 PM

Ladies, gentlemen, please let's not make a terrible situation worse by bickering. I'd like to see us all direct our thoughts toward those in need of our collective support right now.

I agree with DougR: I see the various demonstrations of patriotism as a means of achieving solidarity, as well as strengthening our resolve to end the nightmare of terrorism. If I could FIND an American flag for sale, I would buy it and display it, but every store is sold out and ordering more. So, until those orders come into the stores, I'm displaying the red-white-and-blue decorative flags I usually have out for Independence Day. Since I live in an apartment and can't display them in the yard or attach a flagpole to an outside wall, I am using tension bars to display them in my windows (and making sure my apartment is well-lit in the evenings!).

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 05:06 PM

Just because somethings wrong doesn't mean it's accurate to desribe it as Fascist, Little Hawk. Fascist means something else than that. Triumph of the will and all that stuff for example. It isn't just synonynmous with intolerance.

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: SINSULL
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 05:35 PM

Let me guess, LH. Some of your best friends are Mexicans...of course, you are very careful around them. Wouldn't want to get stuck with a knife.

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,Timbrel
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 05:38 PM

Right now I am flying flags on my house and car. I am flying it because this is a country in which i am free to disagree with my government when my moral responsibilities tell me to. Because so many have died to protect us. Because without the systems of government which I so casually dismissed as silly before have probably saved thousands more innocent lives. Because of the rescue workers, the volunteers, the people who have raided their grocery stores and medicine cabinets to gather the thousands of blankets, towels, toothbrushes, bars of soap and the like that I helped to sort at the local Red Cross last night I am flying it because I LOVE the people of this country, our optimism, willingness to help, strength in the face of fear. I love my family and my home, which are both in America. So many of my heroes -- Martin Luther King, Woody guthrie, Maya Angelou, Pete Seeger -- are Americans and have worked tirelessly to improve this country. Finally, there has come a call to display the flag which I cannot ignore.

I will fly the flag until (and I hhope this does not occur) I am ashamed to fly it, because of acts of hatred, bigotry, and small-mindedness, or because our government loses my support. That happened to a lot of us in the Gulf War. I plead, everyone, STAY sane, SPREAD sanity, and let us all display our flag with pride and hope. Don't defile it with shameful acts. The time for that has come to an end.

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Peg
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 06:12 PM

kat: I was not implying you (or anyone else) does NOT have a life or that I have more of one; only that not everyone can be expected to monitor to and respond to posts as quickly as others seem to think they should. But it was a statement made in anger and I apologize if you thought I was judging you; I was not. But no one should assume that because a post is not responded to quickly enough to suit someone who checks in constantly, that the person being expected to respond is letting something go on too long; they may simply be away from their computers. Ya know? Out doing something else...as I was.

Troll; I made no false statement. I cleared it up. I can't help it if you still don't get it.

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Pseudolus
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 06:14 PM

Folks,
I would venture to guess that no two of us are mourning in quite the same way. Some are flying flags, others lighting candles, still others are just simply silent. There are those whose anger has them waving a flag while chanting U.S.A! These people are hurting too. I don't follow in their footsteps and chant because my mourning is exactly that.....my mourning. But I respect their right to do so. Some of us have lashed out in here. Again, not my way, but I respect that as well. Let this thread be the place to lash out, let's get the anger out, and at some point let's let the anger lay. If it will help anyone to vent, lash out, etc., PM me, I'd be glad to hear it, to help in any way I can.

Take care and Peace....
Frank

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 06:18 PM

Thanks Frank, PM on the way!