Subject: RE: Gringo Pistolero From: Bob Bolton Date: 24 Mar 00 - 05:44 AM G'day relay(?), Bert &c, A bit of thread creep from the antipodes: Does anyone have any evidence / refutation of the story I heard some years back that the Mexican expression Gringo arises from a (!folk)song, popular among the American troops in the earlier Mexican wars Green Grow the Rushes, O'? ... corrupted into ... "greengo"? Regards, Bob Bolton |
Subject: RE: Gringo Pistolero From: Bert Date: 24 Mar 00 - 10:30 AM The way I heard it, it was "Green Grow the Lilacs". I suspect it may be a folk legend though. Bert. |
Subject: RE: Gringo Pistolero From: Bob Bolton Date: 24 Mar 00 - 09:43 PM G'day Bert, I guess that the old principle that any explanation that depends on a story is suspect applies here, but a folksong myth is not amiss on Mudcat. At least the thread set me looking back at my copies of The Merry Muses of Caledonia and I note that the longer version of Green Grow the Rashes O (Burns' own words and something like the song I would have presumed sung by soldiers) seems not to be in the DT. There are two versions quoted and the one posted in the DT is the first (A) and probably collected by Burns.
This is the second version (B): Regards, Bob Bolton |
Subject: Q on Green Grow the Rashes From: Susan-Marie Date: 22 Mar 02 - 10:45 AM One of the verses of one of the versions of Green Grow the Rashes O says "the wisest man the world e're saw dearly loved the lassies o" To whom does that line refer? |
Subject: RE: Q on Green Grow the Rashes From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca Date: 22 Mar 02 - 10:49 AM Could we see the rest of the verse? There might be a clue there, or in the previous verse. |
Subject: RE: Q on Green Grow the Rashes From: GUEST,JTT Date: 22 Mar 02 - 10:54 AM Green grow the *rushes*, unless you're in an STD clinic. Jesus or Solomon, I'd guess - probably Solomon, with his 10,000 wives. |
Subject: Lyr Add: GREEN GROW THE RASHES, O (Robert Burns) From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy Date: 22 Mar 02 - 11:16 AM No, it's rashes, by Robbie Burns & in the DigiTrad 3rd version, I'd say it is Solomon he is referring to, who did reportedly have many wives, and was said to be wise for his judgement. Here are a couple of versions that might be added to the database.
GREEN GROW THE RASHES, O
CHORUS: Green grow the rashes, O;
There's nought but care on ev'ry han',
The warly race may riches chase,
But gie me a canny hour at e'en,
For you sae douse, ye sneer at this,
Auld Nature swears, the lovely Dears
Check out this site for English translation: And here is a version that substitutes rushes for rashes:
CHORUS: Green grow the rushes-O,
In sober hours I am a priest,
We're all dry with drinking o't,
The down bed, the feather bed,
Green grow the rushes-O, |
Subject: RE: Q on Green Grow the Rashes From: Scabby Douglas Date: 22 Mar 02 - 11:25 AM I'd agree on the reference being to Solomon. In another Burns song - "The Bonniest Lass that Ye Meet Neist" He refers to Solomon having mistresses and concubines "in hundreds". Cheers Steven |
Subject: RE: Q on Green Grow the Rashes From: Susan-Marie Date: 22 Mar 02 - 11:26 AM No, it's not the "rushes", that's a different song. And I doubt it's a skin disease because if it's green it would be a fungus, not a rash. But you're probably right about Solomon - thanks JTT. Here is the verse - the entire song is in the DT (but you have to search for it; if you click on the title, you get a different song).
Give me a cannie hour at e'en The last verse is really cute:
Old nature swears the lovely dears Altan does a good version on Another Sky. |
Subject: RE: Q on Green Grow the Rashes From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy Date: 22 Mar 02 - 11:35 AM Yes, Susan-Marie, This IS a different song than the counting version, sung at Christmas, called 'Green Grow the Rushes O' & also in DT, but Burns' song is often referred to by the same title, though incorrectly perhaps. If enough people know it that way, sing it that way, it isn't wrong, it's the Folk Trad thing! Some would say that the phrase in the number song is 'borrowed' directly from Burns with this same 'mistake', singing English 'rushes' for Scots 'rashes', lovely song, though |
Subject: RE: Q on Green Grow the Rashes From: Paddy Plastique Date: 22 Mar 02 - 12:01 PM Burns is wrong for once ! Sure the wisest man the world e'er saw was yer man Socrates - and he wasn't interested in the lassies atall atall.... and I don't mean the 1982 Brazilian World Cup tormentor of Scotland who couldn't get his game for UCD. :-> |
Subject: RE: Q on Green Grow the Rashes From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Mar 02 - 04:29 PM Since he was a man with a fair opinion of himelf, (eg this autobiographical song) Burns might well have been referring to himself as well. But in the first place I imagine he'd have been meaning Solomon.
Compare The Limerick Rake with the verse
There's some say I'm foolish, there's more say I'm wise, |
Subject: RE: Q on Green Grow the Rashes From: ciarili Date: 22 Mar 02 - 05:49 PM Guys, I think that line is rhetorical, and doesn't refer to any specific man! ciarili |
Subject: RE: Q on Green Grow the Rashes From: GUEST Date: 22 Mar 02 - 05:56 PM The less polite version of "Green grow the rashes, O" is here: |
Subject: RE: Q on Green Grow the Rashes From: greg stephens Date: 22 Mar 02 - 05:56 PM Solomon and David/ led very naughty lives/ Canoodling every other night/ with other people's wives/ Sometimes in the evening/ their conscience gave them qualms/ So Solomon wrote the Proverbs/ And David wrote the Psalms |
Subject: RE: Q on Green Grow the Rashes From: Joe_F Date: 22 Mar 02 - 06:44 PM I think Burns was alluding to Solomon's preeminent wisdom as a tradition, not necessarily a historical fact. One should also recall that, in addition to all his wives & concubines, tradition (tho not modern scholarship) regards him as the author of the Song of Songs (shir hashirim asher liShlomo), which Burns, in another song, refers to as "the smuttiest sang that e'er was sung". |
Subject: RE: Q on Green Grow the Rashes From: Joe Offer Date: 03 Jan 05 - 05:12 PM Thread #77044 Message #1370332 Posted By: lynngryphon 03-Jan-05 - 04:47 PM Thread Name: Green Grow The Rushes Oh, discrepency Subject: Green Grow The Rushes Oh, discrepency
I hope I didn't overlook an existing thread on this topic but the search didn't find any that seemed to fit. The above was posted in another thread. I couldn't find the lyrics Lynn is talking about here. Can anybody give full lyrics for Lynn's version? It seems to be and update of the Robert Burns Rushes (click) that's in the Digital Tradition. |
Subject: RE: Q on Green Grow the Rashes From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 03 Jan 05 - 05:36 PM It's just a mis-hearing: see 3rd verse in Bill Kennedy's post above. |
Subject: RE: Q on Green Grow the Rashes From: Jeri Date: 03 Jan 05 - 06:20 PM Or simply an anglicization. "May a' gae tapsalteerie" - "tapsalteerie" is a word I may never have come across if not for this song. |
Subject: RE: Q on Green Grow the Rashes From: Pauline L Date: 04 Jan 05 - 01:38 PM I agree with Ciarili. The reference is rhetorical. |
Subject: RE: Q on Green Grow the Rashes From: woodsie Date: 05 Jan 05 - 01:01 PM Gringo ? |
Subject: RE: Q on Green Grow the Rashes From: GUEST,JTT Date: 21 Feb 07 - 09:12 PM Robbie Burns lived a full life. He'd have known as much about rashes as rushes, I suspect. |
Subject: RE: Q on Green Grow the Rashes From: GUEST,meself Date: 21 Feb 07 - 09:54 PM "The wisest man" is undoubtedly Solomon. Anyone raised with a good dose of Judeo-Christian lore would make that identification immediately, without thinking twice - or once, for that matter - and any half-educated person of Burns' day WAS raised with a good dose of Judeo-Christian lore - Bible stories, in other words. That's why Burns does not need to be more specific. It's as if he had written, "The babe born in a manger" - and a couple of hundred years later, people were arguing about who he possibly could have meant by that ... |
Subject: RE: Question on Green Grow the Rashes From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 04 Oct 10 - 05:09 PM "Green Grow the Rashes, O!" as collected by Burns, appears in an H. De Marsan NY song sheet, undated (1850s?), but with the title "Green Grow the Rushes, O!" This is the earliest, even though questionably dated, version of the lyrics that I have found in American print. The statement, never supported by dated citation that is was sung by troops in the Mexican War, seems dubious. The note in the Traditional Ballad Index on "Green Grow the Rushes-O" has been revised from that reproduced in one of these threads. A form of it appeared in Sandys (Carols), 1823, not 1833. The English versions seemingly had European antecedents. |
Subject: RE: Question on Green Grow the Rashes From: Steve Gardham Date: 04 Oct 10 - 06:23 PM I always thought that little anecdote referred to 'Green grow the Laurels', not 'Green grow the Rushes'. Gringo. |
Subject: RE: Question on Green Grow the Rashes From: Gutcher Date: 04 Oct 10 - 06:56 PM The second version of the song given by Bill 22.3.02. was aye sung in Ayrshire using "rashes" and in the second last line of the chorus "saftest" not "sweetest". I have not seen this version in print before today. Joe. |
Subject: RE: Question on Green Grow the Rashes From: GUEST Date: 24 Oct 12 - 10:17 PM Who is the speaker? What is he like? What is his highest value? How seriously do you take his pronouncements? |
Subject: RE: Question on Green Grow the Rashes From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 25 Oct 12 - 11:09 AM "tapsalteerie" According to my unabridged dictionary, this is a variant of topsy-turvy. Accented syllables are in the same place. rash is a variant of rush, as we assumed |
Subject: RE: Question on Green Grow the Rashes From: GUEST,Esraa Date: 21 May 19 - 12:53 AM what is the symbolism of the title (green grow the rashes) |
Subject: RE: Question on Green Grow the Rashes From: GUEST,Jack Campin Date: 21 May 19 - 07:37 AM "gringo" dates from before Burns was born |
Subject: RE: Question on Green Grow the Rashes From: Steve Gardham Date: 21 May 19 - 11:51 AM Well we can delete the rest of the thread then! Nice one, Jack. It's all Greek to me! |
Subject: RE: Question on Green Grow the Rashes From: Lighter Date: 21 May 19 - 08:05 PM Well, not exactly. Burns was still around in 1787, when "gringo" was recorded in that Spanish dictionary. The older Snopes references are not to the *word* "gringo." |
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