BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 09:14 AM

This becomes ridiculous
You scoop the net for a few minutes and disprove all the photographic evidence, all the eye-witness accounts accounts and everything that has appeared on our screens over the last few months.
The indiscriminate destruction is both obvious and well confirmed in Irish history and largely unchallenged.
I asked where you get your information (having already made your claims) so you hastily scurry around and come up with - well nothing really.
You've seen the damage that was not done by rifle fire, you know the weapons that can not be used in any way other than indiscriminately.
There is no reason to think the army did not act in any other way than described that is the way the responded to opposition to British rule.
You have been diven the details of the razing of Cork City and to the behaviour of the troops in Clare. - you choose not to comment.
You have attempted to denigrate the centenary we are celebrating here in Ireland with smoke and mirrors and the usual jingoism.
Where are you getting your information on for any of this apart from your lightning visits to the net?
Regarding the Home Rule Treaty, which you claim to have been signed sealed and delivered, I was re-reading Robert Kee's impressive, 'Ourselves Alone', volume three of his trilogy, 'The Green Flag'.
The agreement was that six counties would be partitioned till the end of the war, when a period of one year would be given to arrange for complete unification.
The new agreement, which Redmond and his fellow Parliamentarians rejected was for permanent partition.   
This is how Kee described the state of the Treaty in July, following the Uprising.
The Treaty was nothing like agreed to at the time of The Risisng.   
I have no doubt you will ignore this as you have everything else that has been put up.
Robert Kee is a British Historian who is an acknowledged expert on Irish political history.
Jim Carroll
"Though Carson stuck loyally to his new position, a massive opposition to the whole scheme for putting Home Rule into operation at all was now mounted by the English Conservative Party and many of its leaders inside the coalition cabinet. 'They are all in it, ' Lloyd George wrote disarmingly to Dillon, 'except Balfour, Bonar Law and F. E. Smith. Long has behaved in a specially treacherous manner. He has actually been engaged clandestinely in trying to undermine the influence of Carson in Ulster.... He told them there was no war urgency, no prospect of trouble in America I could not think it possible that any man, least of all one with such pretensions of being an English gentleman, could have acted in such a way. '48
But Lloyd George, without any such pretensions, was hardly acting better and both doubtless were doing what they thought best. Long had many other English gentlemen to support him. Lord Selborne at least resigned from the cabinet at the prospect of having to be a party to the immediate implementation of Home Rule. Bonar Law had to bow before the Conservatives of the Carlton Club, who were unable to give him their support for the proposals. On 11 July Lord Lansdowne, another member of the cabinet, finally forced Lloyd George's hand when he stated in the House of Lords that in his view any proposed alteration to the Act of 1914 would be 'permanent and enduring'. 49"

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 09:06 AM

the indiscriminate use of 'area fire' weapons like artillery and heavy machine guns.

Artillery and machine guns were fired directly at rebel positions.
They were not used as area weapons. (Why no link Jim?)

I asked you where you got your "facts' - reply, came there none.

Do you not use the links I provide?

The rebels had no choice in where they fought -

Rubbish. No-one told them which buildings to occupy and defend.
It was entirely their choice, and they mostly chose residential areas.
They did not change their positions during the rising.

Why have you switched to the "Tans?" We are discussing the Rising. I have made no comment on anything else.

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 07:42 AM

No Rag.
The rebels fortified buildings, and the British shelled them.
Buildings fell and burned.
If you have any evidence of indiscriminate British fire, produce it.

If you look at and read my links you will find that there was none.
Why not do that?

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 07:37 AM

I suppose the Irish did all this with their rifles.


Dublin Damage 1916

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 07:30 AM

The dozens of statements of eye witness evidence - the massive damage that was done, the weapons used - even the Gunboat Helga firing shells from the Liffey - these can only be used 'indiscriminately' in the hope they might hit their target.

Not true Jim. There is no evidence of indiscriminate fire that I can find. You clearly know of none either.

" Subsequently the Helga II gained an undeserved reputation for playing an essential part in the Rising. (Most of the damage to Dublin's city centre was caused by fire, particularly at premises like the Irish Times warehouse and Hoyte's Druggists and Oil Works, rather than by shelling.)"

"On 25 April 1916 the Helga sailed from Dún Laoghaire to shell Boland's mill, and on the following day fired over the loop line railway bridge at Liberty Hall. In total the Helga fired only 40 rounds during the Rising, "
http://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/tss-helga-ii/

"The log of the 'Helga' is rather succinct: "26 April. Proceeded up River. Stopped near Custom House. Opened fire on 'Liberty Hall' in conjunction with Military. Fired 24 rounds (8.00 am)."

"At the same time, British Army gunners had moved an 18-pounder field gun from Trinity College. They set up by the south quays by Butt Bridge at Tara Street, and proceeded to shell Liberty Hall as well. They had only shrapnel shells. These did not contain high explosive and would have the effect of a glorified but high-velocity cannon-ball."
http://www.theirishstory.com/2016/03/24/the-helga-and-the-shelling-of-liberty-hall/#.VxdkofkrKt8

No suggestion of indiscriminate shelling here either.http://www.rte.ie/centuryireland/index.php/articles/the-easter-rising-and-destruction-of-dublin

"Homes and businesses across the city were damaged by shelling of key rebel garrisons and widespread looting."
http://www.thejournal.ie/british-pathe-footage-dublin-1916-easter-rising-2683266-Mar2016/

Nothing to suggest indiscriminate British fire.

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 05:14 AM

"how are they unconventional and slightly strange,"
Have you ever watched them Dick - lovely eccentric birds - always remind me of John Gielgud, can't think why
Sorry - I posted this on the bird thread then inadvertently here.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 04:25 AM

how are the wagtails eccentric, jim
how are they unconventional and slightly strange, do your wagtails sing like cuckoos?

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 04:21 AM

Whoops sorry - went to the wrong thread.
"Artillery was used but was it indiscriminate? Any evidence"
The dozens of statements of eye witness evidence - the massive damage that was done, the weapons used - even the Gunboat Helga firing shells from the Liffey - these can only be used 'indiscriminately' in the hope they might hit their target.
This quote from the 'Irish History on Line'
"Fearghal makes the point that it was the British who were responsible for the atrocities that we know about, such as the killing of 15 civilians on North King Street and the shooting of civilians in Portobello Barracks as well as the indiscriminate use of 'area fire' weapons like artillery and heavy machine guns. But both he and Padraig also make the point that the clumsiness of the British military was as much a product of their shock and disorientation at the Rising as any malice."   
I asked you where you got your "facts' - reply, came there none.
I do not "defend" the use of children - I merely point out that it is a consequence of this type of warfare and was used in wartime France both by French resistance Fighters and Britons parachuted in to support them - and every other conflict involving irregular and guerrilla tactics.
The rebels had no choice in where they fought - it was a desperately unequal battle and they did what they could.
What should they have done - rolled up their sleeves and challenged the army to a head to head in Phoenix Park
The rape, torture murder and mass destruction that took place by British troops in the Black and Tan period is carved into Irish history - that was within five years of the Easter Week Uprising
This town was one of three on this coast that was set fire to and pillaged in revenge for the Rineen Ambush, Lahinch and Ennistimon being the other two - you question this, go look it up.
Virtually the first act carried out by the Tans when they landed was the burning of heavily populated Cork City.
More than 40 business premises, 300 residential properties, City Hall and the Carnegie Library were destroyed by fire. Over £3 million worth of damage (1920 value; €172 millon in today's money) was done, 2,000 were left jobless and many were left homeless.
Now - where did your "facts" come from?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 04:09 AM

How do hedgehogs mate?









Very carefully!

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 03:43 AM

"Saw a sikin for the first time yesterday in our back garden.
Collared doves, usually four (with the most boring though evocative calls) are regular visitor.
Robin's and wrens nest in the few bushed around the garden.
You can set your clock to the herons heading home each night.
Blue, great and goldfinches abound along with the extremely eccentric wagtails.
Look forward to the swallows (they've been sighted in our neighbouring counties of Galway and Kerry, but not made it to Clare yet).
Was delighted to see a sparrowhawk once perched on a fence about six feet from our window, but it didn't stop me shooing it off (unfortunately, not before it snatched a sparrow)
Autumn will bring the spectacular displays of starlings filling our sky and stopping the traffic.
Not too bad for a part of Ireland with no trees!
We're dealing with a bereavement at present - a hedgehog has crawled onto our pile of cut grass and died (think it's dead - will give it a few days in case it's still hibernating)
Saw (or rather, heard) two of them having it off at the back of the house one night - no shame!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 03:20 AM

"I would submit that most of us tend to romanticize the causes we support "
I agree entirely Joe - but it doesn't alter the fact that, when we do we tend to deal in our own personal emotions rather than facts.
I'm a sucker for historical novels - have read all the Sansom novels on English history and await the next anxiously, loved the Walter Macken trilogy on the Irish struggle, Liam O'Flaherty's 'Famine' still makes me seethe with anger.... but these are for emotional stimulation, not quotable facts.
That is what I feel about the Uris novels I have read (not just his Irish ones).
I remember presenting some facts about Irish Traveller origins on this forum and being accused of getting them from 'Ireland's Own' - not helpful in a discussion, and certainly not in an argument.
I would have no hesitation in recommending Peter De Rosa's 'Rebels' to anybody who wishes to dip their toe into 'Easter Week' - good history 'factionally' presented with flaws and not grounds for detailed argument.
As enjoyable and generally informative as these books are, they are not history proper; I would no more rely on them for detail than I would rely on Howard Fast's 'Last Frontier' or 'Freedom Road' for your history, though both are among my favourite books.
It's not the job of the novelist to present a 'balanced' picture, but on the other hand, historians can be just as unbalanced in their approach in what the choose to present or ignore, though not quite as unbalanced as some who quote them, (that's not a comment on anybody here, just a general observation on how history is constantly misused to feed agendas).
As I said earlier, there are very few books dealing specifically with Easter Week, not to the depth the subject requires - it's usually included as part of something else.
Hopefully, this anniversary will change that.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 03:04 AM

history is generally written by the victors,or in the case of opposing countries those that consider them selves victors
often the same incident is interpreted differently in different countries here is an example, my nephew started school in england and learned that the english won certain battles against the french, he continued his education in france and learned that according to french historians the french won those same battles.

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 02:40 AM

Fergie, I do know that England has been involved in Ireland for centuries.
Nothing in your piece challenges or contradicts anything said by me.

Jim, Artillery was used but was it indiscriminate? Any evidence?
I am shocked that you defend the use of children.
Are you denying that the rebels fought from crowded residential areas like North King's Street?

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 09:23 PM

HiLo, I'm tempted to say that if you cannot contribute information to a thread, then you have no business posting or criticizing those who have posted. Arguments about the right or wrong conduct of posters, make no contribution to the discussion.
I said above that I learned most of what I know from the 1976 Leon Uris novel Trinity, and its 1995 sequel Redemption. These novels follow Fergie's outline very closely. Come to think of it, I've read quite a bit more about Irish history, mostly fiction. I suppose I've learned most of the history I know from novels, and I think that's not a bad thing. Keith asks why I thought the Uris novels gave a balanced view, and I'm not sure I would say they are balanced. I'd say they present a valid perspective, but there are many valid perspectives of this issue. The Uris novels presented what some people thought and felt during these momentous events, and they presented these thoughts and feelings very effectively.
The participants in this thread have presented a variety of perspectives. Most of them are valid, although some may not be popular.

Jim says that the Uris novels are romanticized, but I would submit that most of us tend to romanticize the causes we support - and I'm not sure that's a bad thing. It's a matter of believing in our causes so we can bring about improvement, balanced with an understanding of other perspectives so we can learn to work together to accomplish something by peaceful consensus instead of by bitter conflict.

I've read lots and lots of novels by Uris, Michener, Ken Follett, Wouk, and by many others who write in a historical context. I tend to stay awake better reading novels, than I do reading history texts. And I think that novels do a better job of presenting what's in the minds and hearts of participants in historical events.

But no, learning history through novels will never make me a scholar. Greg and I, being Americans, are better off being in a learning mode in a thread like this one.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 04:25 PM

"However, you have challenged information presented by others."
What information?
Ask them where they get their information?
How about responding to what Fergie has just put up?
"Jim, I have not made any disparaging comments on facts presented by others"
'Fraid you have - and put nothing up yourself other than a blanket blessing for the only two people on this thread who have taken their line.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Fergie
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 03:29 PM

Keith,

You state

"Nothing in that challenges a single thing that I have said.", so I take it that you agree with the statement in my synopsis
"In 1171 Henry II King of England declared himself Lord of Ireland. From that time until the Good Friday agreement was ratified by referenda in 1998 the claims of England/Britain to rule any part of Ireland was never freely conceded by the Irish."
It was Britain's illegal and immoral occupation of Ireland and the aggressive and oppressive subjugation of the Irish people that was the root of the troubles in Ireland and the Irish people had every right to oppose that occupation. They did so in arms in 1916 and their right to do so does not have to be justified to historical revisionists.

Fergus

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 02:53 PM

"Jim, why do you say that the British fire was indiscriminate?
Because it was by all reports - including eye witnesses,. do you have any information that it wasn't?
"The heavy civilian casualties resulted from the rebels choosing to fight from heavily populated and overcrowded residential areas like North King Street."
Where does that come from?
You'll have to drop Joe Duffy a line and let him know
Have you not seen the photographs and film showing the devastation caused by the artillery fire in the centre of Dublin - hardly from rifle fire.
"1916 RISING 19 images Created 18 Nov 2015

The Easter Rising was a rebellion carried out by separatist republican groups demanding Irish independence in April 1916, in the midst of the First World War. Most of the fighting took place in Dublin, where the insurgents seized a number of buildings. The British authorities, fearing the prospect of German involvement in the rebellion, bombarded central Dublin and the rebellion was crushed after six days. Much of Dublin's central commercial districts were destroyed by a combination of artillery, and fires caused by both the British bombardment and looters. These images form a record of the devastation in the immediate aftermath of the rebellion."

Independent Archives
"They also put children in harms way by using them as couriers."
As did the resistance during World War II and every other resistance movement throughout history trying to chagne society.
While Easter week was going on millions of young men were dying in the bloodbath of Europe - not to mention the civilians being slaughtered
Where are you getting all this from Keith?
"Well, Greg, you have not been there and done that."
Have you - you tell us where we can go for information
"You have presented no facts"
Have you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 02:43 PM

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 01:48 PM

Canal system?? What century do you think we are living in ?

Canals are a relic of a bygone age, great for taking a holiday on, I've enjoyed cruising on them myself, as a means to transport goods and services ....................... !?!?
you really are displaying you ignorance, canals are one of the most efficient forms of transportation, slow, but efficient as regarding the amount that can be transported in relation to fuel cost.
but let us put that aside for one moment, here are two other arguments why canal infra structure should be maintained for the tourist industry, and as a means of alleviating flooding and diverting water after very heavy rainfall.
however European money has not been used for that nor for railways or any other infra structure, with the exception of a few ill
advised road projects.

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 02:35 PM

Thanks Fergie.
Nothing in that challenges a single thing that I have said.

Neither Fergie, Greg, Rag or Jim have identified any error in anything I have posted, resorting to personal attack instead.

Jim, why do you say that the British fire was indiscriminate?
The heavy civilian casualties resulted from the rebels choosing to fight from heavily populated and overcrowded residential areas like North King Street.
They also put children in harms way by using them as couriers.

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Fergie
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 02:10 PM

I am offering this synopsis of the lead up to the Easter Rising in Dublin in 1916 at Joe Offer's request.
In 1171 Henry II King of England declared himself Lord of Ireland. From that time until the Good Friday agreement was ratified by referenda in 1998 the claims of England/Britain to rule any part of Ireland was never freely conceded by the Irish.
Many, many times during those eight centuries the Irish took up arms to assert their right to self determination. Each insurrection was brutally surpressed and aggressive laws were enacted by the Crown to coerce the Irish into submission. With the failure of the 1798 Rebellion, the Irish parliament was abolished and Ireland was ruled directly from London
With the supression of the Fenian Rising in 1867 some of the leaders began to focus on political agitation rather than armed revolt, and one of the key demands was for Ireland's parliament to be re-established and for Ireland to return to Home Rule.
HOME RULE BILL
After the 1910 British General Election the Irish Parliamentary Party led by John Redmond, held the balance of power in the House of Commons and their price for supporting the Liberals in government was a Home Rule Bill. The Liberals conceded and Home Rule for Ireland was to become law in 1914.
RELIGIOUS DIVIDE
The 1911 census of population for Ireland records that 73% were Catholic and 24% were Protestant and while it would be simplistic and wrong to suggest that all Catholics were for Home Rule and all Protestants against. it would be fair to say. in general. that support for the Home Rule was very high amongst Catholics, but was opposed by the majority of Protestants (especially so in Ulster).
ULSTER VOLUNTEER FORCE
For many Ulster unionists Home Rule was regarded as being tantamount to Rome Rule. Carson and Craig, leaders of the unionists, organised a campaign in opposition to the Bill and called for a volunteer militia force of Orangemen and Unionists pledged to resist Home Rule in arms if necessary. In early 1912 the Ulster Volunteers Force was formed and in short time grew to 100,000 men. It was the avowed aim of this force to resist by every means including armed revolt any attempt by their government to enact Home Rule for Ireland.
CURRAGH MUTINY
In early 1914 intelligence services reported that the UVF were plotting to seize arms and ammunition from the arsenal in Carrickfergus. In March when it became apparent that the government was about to order the army to intervene sixty British Officers at the Curragh Camp (the main base for the British Army in Ireland) threatened to resign their commissions if they were ordered to take action against the UVF. This threat forced the Secretary of State for War, Col Seely, to guarantee that the army would not be used in Ulster. The position that the officers involved were not guilty of mutiny is an argument based on semantics in that it contends that they threatened to resign BEFORE they had received a direct order to act against the UVF.
LARNE GUN-RUNNING
In late April 1914 the UVF smuggled 25,000 rifles and 4 million rounds that they had procurred from the German Empire into Larne. The military and civic authoritys were aware of the landing, but took no action against the gun-runners.

The failure on the parts of the British establishment including; the cabinet, the military high-command, the civil authorities and the police to take any steps to curtail the illegal actions of the UVF was what brought nationalists to the realization that Home Rule would not be won without a fight.

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 01:48 PM

Canal system?? What century do you think we are living in ?

Canals are a relic of a bygone age, great for taking a holiday on, I've enjoyed cruising on them myself, as a means to transport goods and services ....................... !?!?

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 01:27 PM

As was the case with The Famine up to the 150th anniversary, there have been in fact very few books specifically about the reasons for the Easter Rising - (plenty of eye-witness accounts and personal experiences), for various reasons, though there is not a history of the 20th century that does not give it pride of place as a great event in the creation of an independent Ireland.
This anniversary is proving the turning point.
Incidentally, as pointed out by Joe Duffy and other, the majority of children who died during Easter week, did so because of indiscriminate British bombardment and crossfire.
It is interesting to note that the youngest soldier to be killed in W.W.1. was aged 14 - he enlisted at 13 - he was from County Waterford, it's apparently OK to die for the Empire, but not for Ireland.
Had the uprising not taken place it would be quite likely that many of the children who died during the fighting might well have reached the age where they could have been conscripted.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 01:24 PM

Yes Hilo I can.

Try "Irish Histories for Dummies" and no I am not being sarcastic.

As an introduction to Irish History it is really not a bad starting point. It will give you much more of an insight than any of the cut and pastes from contributors here.

The book catalogue number is ISBN 0-7645-7040-4

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 10:50 AM

stop repeating things that have been proven wrong over and over again.

If that is true Jim, state one!

displays a profound ignorance of history.

By the historians Greg?

Heather Jones, an associate professor in international history at the London School of Economics and Political Science.

"The third clear problem involved in commemorating the Rising is the rather thorny fact that the militants who seized Dublin in 1916 had no democratic mandate. The last election before the Rising saw the vast majority of nationalist constituencies elect Home Rule candidates, in support of the campaign of the Irish Parliamentary Party at Westminster for devolved government for Ireland within the United Kingdom. The majority of the nationalist population was satisfied with the passing of the home rule bill in 1912; it was due for implementation pending the end of the first world war. Even within the ranks of republicanism, the Rising was carried out by a small minority. "

"Ultimately, it is the fact that the 1916 Rising represents an endorsement of violence that is deeply problematic for modern Irish sensibilities, and which has been the subject of a great deal of debate in the press. Despite intelligence monitoring, the rebels' separatist violence came out of the blue. It was also extreme: they shot unarmed Catholic Irish policemen without warning. The public discourse around the centenary has increasingly emphasised the fact that the Rising caused considerable civilian casualties: 40 children died in the Easter Rising, a statistic long forgotten until the recent publication of a history by the broadcaster Joe Duffy.[2] In fact, civilians, many of them caught in the crossfire, made up the majority of the 450 rebellion dead, along with 132 soldiers and police and 62 rebels."
http://www.ippr.org/juncture/commemorating-the-rising-history-democracy-and-violence-in-ireland

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 10:33 AM

Raggytash, none of which backs up your completely inaccurate and incorrect statement about the infra structure in Ireland. the vast majority of the infra structure in ireland was built by the british , this includes the rail network and the canal system,and most of the road system.
the irish pulled up sections of the rail system at the same time as BEECHING ,INCLUDING THE RAIL SYSTEM IN WEST CORK.The EU HAS DONE NOTHING TO REPLACE THE BUTCHERED RAIL SYSTEM.
they have spent a small amount of money on the road system regardless of destroying a national heritage site, often ill advised and badly spent too, for example straightening out roads and destroying bends immediately before 30 mph limits][ example entrance to Ballydehob], encouraging motorists to go faster and yet putting up signs for them to go slower, the result of this is revenue for the garda in speeding fines.
Europe is now collecting our motor tax, and using that money to pay back a debt, no european money is being spent on maintaining our victorian british water mains, or sewer sytem, or repairing massive pot holes on minor and major roads.
Raggy tash your commmnnts are illinformed and inaccurate, europe has done little for an infra structure that was built by the British prior to 1914, NOTHING FOR THE RAILWAYS THE WATER SYSTEM SEWAGE SYSTEM , VERY LITTLE FOR THE CANAL SYSTEM AND NOT MUCH FOR THE ROADS.

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 10:21 AM

"im, the only warning was to keep the discussion polite, "
We've finished here - we probably did in 2014 - you failed to make your case then, you are still doing so now.
There really is no point.
If you have a point to make, make it and stop repeating things that have been proven wrong over and over again.
You have just been given exatly what happening in July 1916 and you coose to ignore it
"There was no foot dragging."
We are no cluttering up a decent discussion.
Please stop.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 10:15 AM

Rag, I have not relied on any cut and paste.
I provided a link to a complete and recent article on the rising by an eminent Irish historian, with an extract in my post.

What is wrong with that Rag?

Jim, the only warning was to keep the discussion polite, which we have, and not to attack the poster as Rag has just done, but only to challenge what is posted, which Rag has failed to do.

Have a word with him, not me.

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 08:57 AM

Dick,I email my mate about the excavation you referred to. Below is his reply which to my mind answers the concerns put by Christa Spannbauer quiet succinctly:

Hello, Hope all goes well with you.

You are right that I worked on the M3 project in Ireland and very interesting it was too. As regards Lismullen, I did some work on this but the director was Aidan O'Connell who now works at Archer Heritage.ie. The site was published as Harvesting the Stars: An Iron Age Temple at Lismullen (Wordswell) and the book got very good reviews. The whole M3 road project was controversial because of its proximity to The Hill of Tara and there was considerable protest at the time. However the route of the road is not that close and did not impact on the hill itself but only on the wider landscape (I'm not even sure whether you can see the road from the hill). Google earth it and see for yourself. There was European money involved in the project. All of the archaeological work was done to the highest of standards and was closely scrutinised by central government. The standards followed were very high including 100% resolution of all sites (i.e. everything was excavated) whereas in England a sampling strategy is adopted where anything as low as 10% is accepted. I'm not going to outline the full methodology of road archaeology here, but you will find lots of additional information on the NRA.ie website under archaeology. All the final reports used to be on this site but they seem to have gone now. Check out the contents of Seanda for general articles on the M3 and Lismullen in particular. Also Google Stuart Rathbone and see what you get as he entered into the public on-line debate with some energy.

At the end of it a great deal of misinformation was spread by those against the route - most of it wrong.

Hope this helps and a Merry New Year to you and yours

Steve

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 08:40 AM

Give it a rest Keith; we've already had our warning and you have had your evidence
Finished
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 08:28 AM

Keith, could I suggest you actually read a few books on Irish history instead of relying a cut and pastes which do not allow anyone to make the kind of statements you are coming out with.

Start with Strongbow in 1169/70 then read about the following 747 years. When you have done so you MAY have an insight into the 1916 Rising.

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 08:10 AM

- it was an essential act to stop the foot-dragging that had taken place over Home Rule.
Even a few months after the uprising, no agreement had been reached on ratifying the Bill.

There was no foot dragging.
The bill had been passed, and enactment only postponed because of the world war that was raging and going badly.

The Rising achieved nothing. Pointless bloodshed. Home rule was going to happen anyway.

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 08:06 AM

Why the rising was so unpopular, by John Gibney, currently Glasnevin Trust Professor of Public History and Cultural Heritage at Trinity College Dublin..

" some (home rule nationalists) went so far as to view the Rising as an attack on Home Rule as much as the British.
Then there were the views of those who were literally on the ground. Many of the insurgents who fought in 1916 recorded the hostility of the families of serving soldiers across the city (some went so far as to say that their British captors had saved them from angry mobs).
There was a widespread perception (shared by Redmond) that the Volunteers were in cahoots with the Germans; from that point of view, those who fought in the Rising were stabbing other Irishmen – sons, husbands, brothers – in the back, and doing so in relatively safe circumstances at home; as one irate lady on Bridgefoot Street shouted at the young Volunteer Sean McLoughlin, 'it's out in Flanders you should be, you bastards'.
Alongside this was the fact that the Rising had caused massive death and destruction, and disrupted everyday life in the city; Oscar Traynor recalled how he and his fellow Volunteers were accused by one irate Dubliner of being 'starvers of the people'. Hostility to the Rising on these various grounds was inevitable, and surely understandable.
It can't just be blamed on 'jackeens' either, for (some) Dubliners were not the only ones hostile to the Rising. Local authorities and the provincial press across the country condemned it and, as Conor McNamara of NUIG has discovered, in Galway a committee of concerned citizens pledged themselves to supporting the British authorities; the Redmondite Nationalist Volunteers even patrolled Galway City with weapons provided by the British army.
Condemnation of the Rising spread far beyond the city in which the vast bulk of the fighting took place. But such attitudes changed utterly in subsequent weeks and months."
http://www.independent.ie/incoming/just-why-was-the-easter-rising-so-unpopular-34563527.html

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 07:37 AM

"Of course they are not, and they did not."
They attempted to by threatening to refuse to accept the decision of the Government - leading members of the Army tried to force the Government to change their policy - they interfered with the running of the country - that is wrong, it is illegal and it could have set a horrendous precedent - a armed force with the power to defy or change government policy.
Look Keith - you have opposed the subject o this thread on every step - why not stop tip-toeing around that fact as state your position instead of constantly raising thes bling alleys.
As far as I am concerned, Easter Week was not just a courageous act to free Ireland from British rule - it was an essential act to stop the foot-dragging that had taken place over Home Rule.
Even a few months after the uprising, no agreement had been reached on ratifying the Bill.

"The Act had two amendments enforced by Unionists on 19 July – permanent exclusion and a reduction of Ireland's representation in the Commons. When informed by Lloyd George on 22 July 1916, Redmond accused the government of treachery. This was decisive in sealing the future fortunes of the Home Rule movement. Asquith made a second attempt to implement Home Rule in 1917, with the calling of the Irish Convention chaired by Horace Plunkett. This consisted of Nationalist and Unionist representatives who, by April 1918, only succeeded in agreeing a report with an 'understanding' on recommendations for the establishment of self-government.
The end of the war, in November 1918, was followed in Ireland by the December 1918 general election, the majority of seats being won by the republican separatist Sinn Féin party, then in January 1919 by the Irish War of Independence, so that the Act was never implemented. The future of Home Rule was determined by the Government of Ireland Act 1920. It established Northern Ireland, with a functional government, and Southern Ireland, whose governmental institutions never fully functioned. Southern Ireland, following the Anglo-Irish Treaty, became the Irish Free State."

Easter Week was significant beyond Ireland in that it was a major step in bringing the predatory British Empire crashing in ruins.
It preceded the Russian Revolution by over a year and it inspired many other national liberation movements to stand up and be counted.
I doubt if there are many who would oppose the right of countries to govern themselves nowadays - it was a much-needed revolutionary step.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 07:25 AM

No nothing wrong with that, better to resign than refuse an order.

It's a pity the boys in the trenches didn't have that option.

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 07:14 AM

- of course they are not allowed to intervene in Government policy

Of course they are not, and they did not.

They merely considered exercising their perfect right to quit.
Nothing wrong with that.

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 05:34 AM

"s anyone prepared to quit their job because they disapprove of the work a criminal?"
The Army and the police hold a position of privilege in our society - they rely on the consent that those privileges give them and both are restricted in the actions they are allowed to take - the alternatives are a police or a military state - of course they are not allowed to intervene in Government policy
"But should the government go further and allow troops to enlist in a trade union ... and the right to strike?
It is illegal for a non-civilian member of the armed forces to do either. Britain is not breaching the European convention on human rights which allows for legal exemptions. And the relevant law in the UK is the Queen's Regulations, by which every serviceman and woman is bound."
GUARDIAN
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 05:25 AM

You really are claiming that none of this happened and high ranking members of the armed forces did not attempt to force Government policy on Ulster and "The Curragh Mutiny" was a figment of the imagination - aren't you?

Not imagination.
Is anyone prepared to quit their job because they disapprove of the work a criminal?
Of course not.
That is all that was being considered.
No crime. No mutiny.

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 05:23 AM

Going back to your mention of creating a rail network there are various issues that do not lend themselves to one.

For the most part the population outside the major cities (Dublin, Cork, Galway etc) live in fairly small, even isolated, communities that a rail network could not viably service. In order to commute a decent road network is essential.

Now I know down in West Cork where you reside such a network is long overdue but in other areas of the country numerous by-passes have been built to reduce travelling times. (although the N71 has been upgraded in some parts)

Going to the capital (and major port) has been made easier with the creation a system of motorways that facilitate transport. It is now possible to drive to Galway for instance in about 2 hours. Twenty years ago take would have taken 4 to 5 hours all subsidised by the EU.

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 04:48 AM

a very self explanatory post where was that school,Borstal?

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 04:34 AM

Typo alert M3 not N3

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 04:32 AM

Dick, Funny you should mention the N3 motorway. An old friend of mine (Steve Linnane) was Director of Archaeology for the Baronstown excavation prior to the motorway being constructed. If you want to look up his papers on the dig they can be found at:

DIG

Just for the record Steve and I were in the same class at school and drank together for some year after.

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 04:02 AM

"What evidence do you have that there was any CRIMINAL conspiracy? "
You really are claiming that none of this happened and high ranking members of the armed forces did not attempt to force Government policy on Ulster and "The Curragh Mutiny" was a figment of the imagination - aren't you?
Ah well - it takes all sorts!!
It was military aggression though no violence occurred - which nobody, not I, claimed it did.
That you appear to see such behaviour as the role of Her Majesty's Forces says what needs to be says what needs to be said. I think - We'll have our keep our eyes on an armed force capable of influencing Government policy - such things are military dictatorships made of.
"Where did they openly oppose the Government of the day?"
They gave notice that they would refuse to take part in action against Ulster if orders were given.
"The Curragh Mutiny" is part of British/Irish History as is'Bloody Sunday' - despite what the deniers say - go and look it up.
Joe.
Trinity, and its follow up are excellent and enjoyable novels which helped paint a somewhat romaniticised (i.m.o.) picture of life at the time, though they are works of fiction and cannot be relied on as history, nor did they pretend to be - the same with Exodus, of course.
The bit that always sticks in my mind is the effect that the priest's castigating the enjoyment of sex has on the family life of the two main characters - but that's me!
Have never read his follow up, Redemption.
Leon and Jill Uris produced an interesting modern photographic survey of modern Ireland entitled 'Ireland - a Terrible Beauty (1976) - worth looking up if you haven't read it.
For a novelised account of Easter Week, , I thoroughly enjoyed Peter De Rosa's 'Rebels.
One of the best eye-witness-account books on the Uprising is Agony at Easter by Scots/American, Thomas Coffey - a minute-by-minute account made up of interviews with people who were around at the time.
It carries a lovely story of a bunch of Liverpudlians who came across on the boat to join the fight, get off at the North Wall, board a tram-car and ask for "six tickets to the revolution please".
Keith - we've been over all this interminably and got nowhere - we are not going to change each others' minds so let's not **** up another thread - please!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 03:31 AM

Joe, I have not read Uris.
Why do you think the book gives a balanced view?

I found this review which questions the objectivity.

"Social commentary, perhaps outright propaganda, is an integral element of this historical presentation. Each of the three factions in the political war is examined, but the native Irishmen obviously have thé sympathy of the author. Uris does manage to a great degree to avoid the depiction of the Irish as the quaint folk of the popular stereotype, but he cannot resist the image of an innocent and poetical people provoked to acts of violence by their greedy and unfeeling neighbors. "
http://www.enotes.com/topics/trinity

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 01:21 AM

"Mutiny is a criminal conspiracy among a group of people (typically members of the military; or the crew of any ship, even if they are civilians) to openly oppose, change, or overthrow a lawful authority to which they are subject. The term is commonly used for a rebellion among members of the military against their superior officer(s), but can also occasionally refer to any type of rebellion against an authority figure."

What evidence do you have that there was any CRIMINAL conspiracy? Taking into account that it is perfectly legal for any officer to tender his resignation at any time. Nothing to do with this instance at all but it is also perfectly within the rights of any serving member of the armed forces to disobey any order that they believe to be unlawful.

Where did they openly oppose the Government of the day? Nowhere - the choice they were given was obey or face dismissal from the Army, 57 officers each personally elected to submit their resignations - face saving opportunity for the Army and Government of the day, as neither had to dismiss anybody.

As no actions were ordered and no changes demanded by those who submitted their resignations, the change bit doesn't hold water either.

Who exactly was overthrown by the officers who submitted their resignations? The men who were forced to resign their posts in the aftermath of the incident were forced to resign by their superiors, not by those who submitted their resignation at the Curragh.

So Mr Carroll:
No Military aggression - as you originally claimed
No Mutiny - as both Thompson, numerous articles including the one you posted and myself have stated
No overt action against Home Rule (I also believe that the Irish Home Rule Bill was given Royal Assent on the 18th September 1914).

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Apr 16 - 10:21 PM

Refresh. Keep it civil, folks. If you disagree, provide evidence to the contrary. If all you can say is that you're right and somebody else is wrong, why should anyone believe you, and what does anybody learn from your post?
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Apr 16 - 03:18 PM

Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought the Leon Uris novel Trinity did a good job of telling the history of the troubles in Ireland. And although "Zionism" is not popular today, I think that the Uris book Exodus presented a valid perspective. There are two sides to the discussion in the question of Israel (let's not go there in this thread). Neither side is completely right, nor completely wrong. The same goes for Ireland.

But what's wrong with the novel Trinity and its description of Ireland?

Joe

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Apr 16 - 02:41 PM

Jim, your first BBC link supports my case not yours!

"Irishmen enlisted for the war effort for a variety of reasons. Some, just like their fellows in other warring states, joined up for the perceived justice of the cause. But in Ireland, which in 1914 was deeply divided between nationalist and unionist political groups, more local considerations played an important part for many individuals.

Nationalists, for whom the establishment of an Irish 'home rule' parliament in Dublin had been the principal political aim for most of the 19th century, were committed to the war effort by their leader, John Redmond, in September 1914.

This was on the grounds that the necessary legislation had been passed (though in fact it was suspended for the duration of the war), and that the 'freedom of small nations' (such as Belgium or Serbia) was that of Ireland as well. The plight of gallant, Catholic little Belgium, invaded by a militaristic aggressor, was disadvantageously compared with Ireland, achieving freedom (so Redmond argued) within the British Empire, rather like Canada or Australia."

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Apr 16 - 02:37 PM

Nope - they went out because they were offered jobs, an easy war and meals every day, which many of them did not have at home.

There was plenty of well paid civilian war work available.
Most joined during and after the retreat when there was no hope of an easy or quick victory, and defeat much more likely.

Expalin the sudden U-turn - from support for Britain to a War of Independence that drove Britain out of Ireland in a matter of months.

The British misjudged the situation and Ireland sympathised with their martyrs.
Britain was not driven out of Ireland in months. Home rule had to wait for the end of the war when it would have happened anyway.
All the bloodshed of the Rising was irrelevant.

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: keberoxu
Date: 18 Apr 16 - 02:36 PM

Leon Uris? Really? The author of the pro-Zionist "Exodus"? Surely someone somewhere has done better.

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 16 - 02:31 PM

Definition of Mutiny
"Mutiny is a criminal conspiracy among a group of people (typically members of the military; or the crew of any ship, even if they are civilians) to openly oppose, change, or overthrow a lawful authority to which they are subject. The term is commonly used for a rebellion among members of the military against their superior officer(s), but can also occasionally refer to any type of rebellion against an authority figure."
Which bit of that did they not do?
Jim Carroll