BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Apr 16 - 04:42 AM

The incident which was described in the link you provided and which you were so happy about is:

1: Not verified

2: For a number of logical and physical reasons totally unbelievable

If you wish to believe fairy stories - fill your boots - only please do not expect others to be so gullible and don't react so childishly when your dearly held myths are challenged.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Apr 16 - 03:14 PM

"Better get onto Jim Carroll for going on about the Black & Tans terrorising Ireland for two years - in actual fact is was less than 15 months - What a crime eh?"

Well that's about as bad as your sixteen months turning into two years when it came to the timing of Keith's Big Fib! A statement that, like all the others, you never failed to "check-out!" And you think I'm hilarious. Hey, do you think we could do a Morecambe and Wise double act?

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Apr 16 - 02:10 PM

Ah! One more thing. If I was a young man I could probably clear that distance in about 3 minutes (or less)

Not that I'd want to with British troops using sophisticated techniques of aim, target, correct or whatever it was you stated.

No way I might get hit !!!

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Apr 16 - 02:05 PM

Hmmmmmmm I don't think I've mentioned a VOLUNTEER witnessing anything. That's a figment of YOUR imagination.

Just as a point of information Bolands Mill is about 700 metres from the river. I could possibly stroll that, even with my aged impediments, in less than 15 minutes.

If as is stated in the article the "engagement" took over an hour I could have been there and back twice.


I do hope you're not going to go follow the inane path of the professor and attempt to prove the unprovable. We know where that dead end stops.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Apr 16 - 01:57 PM

Well, Keith, I didn't know you were a moderator now! Inflammatory, no. I have stated only facts. False, never. Anyone can view that thread and see exactly what you did. You made a grossly inaccurate characterisation of what your source said (yes, yes, you quoted it in full, then you later went on to put words into his mouth that he neither said nor meant - when are you actually going to come clean, Keith? Do you actually want people to trust what you say or not?) and you refused to back down. It's important, Keith, in any context at all in which you're being taken to task because it shows that you are unreliable in the extreme. Perhaps you were once a Sun reporter. It's what they do all the time. As for the rising, I've already said that those events informed Irish history from then right to this day, a point disputed here by some whose agenda is firmly anti-Irish republican. And I'm certainly not getting into squabbles about who fired what at whom and from where. I've been to Dublin, seen the bullet holes and sated my fired-up curiosity. That's as much as I care to share with you two ill-tempered fellows, but it's on-topic, no?

If you want to make a "blindingly obvious" point, Teribus, it's best to make it blindingly accurately, not blindly inaccurately. You KNOW that Keith misquoted but wouldn't correct himself, don't you? Yes, of course you do. Unfortunately, you define yourself by those who you choose to close ranks with. I wouldn't mind betting you get road rage too.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Apr 16 - 01:26 PM

Any observations on the Rising Steve?
Nothing from you so far.

If you only come here to foment off topic arguments by making inflammatory and false accusations against anyone who disagrees with your fellow lefties, you are just trolling.

Please post about the rising and not about contributors.
(Likewise Greg and DTG)

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Apr 16 - 12:26 PM

Hilarious Shaw - Is that really the best you can come up with?? The instance that caused you to start dancing on the head of a pin was one where - if you had read the previous posts - it was blindingly obvious the pint that Keith A was making.

Better get onto Jim Carroll for going on about the Black & Tans terrorising Ireland for two years - in actual fact is was less than 15 months - What a crime eh? As stated previously you want go get a life.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Apr 16 - 11:46 AM

Hmm. Your "checking" can get a little sloppy at times, as I demonstrated at 04.50 am yesterday.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Apr 16 - 11:36 AM

Pray tell Raggy what proof? The statement you quote proves nothing. I stand by what I said. I was responding to your idiotic:

"Not just for one shot apiece but for numerous shots apiece and neither managed to hit a static target a matter of a few hundreds yards away."

Hardly a few hundreds (sic) yards away, and I was explaining to you why under the circumstances fancifully imagined by your "volunteer" that neither gun crew could possibly hit the other - no firing solution. There was no indiscriminate fire Rags if there had been then a damn sight more than 260 civilians would have been killed. No heavy artillery Jom because if there had been then a damn sight more than 485 people would have been killed. No incendiary rounds as none existed in the whole of Ireland in April 1916. No blue-on-blue friendly fire incident as described by Raggy's volunteer.

Now then Rags tell us how it would be possible for a man under fire to witness what he said he witnessed? If you cannot do that then that puts his whole story into question doesn't it?

Jom's gone awfully quiet of the poppies and the obscene profits hasn't he? Mind you he is not alone. Fergie has remained silent since he was asked to tell us when and where Joe Offer asked him to pen his tuppence worth and Thompson doesn't seem to be able to tell us where he got his wildly exaggerated figures from (30,000 British troops whereas the actual number deployed to Ireland was 15,000 + 1,000 policemen of the RIC in Dublin at the time. At the height of the fighting the 1250 volunteers were engaged by 4,000 British troops) and where the 1.2 million Arabs came from who fought for the British Army in the First World War - 500,000 of them getting killed would you credit it - I certainly don't but then I don't just spout about being sceptical - I actually check-out statements made by others.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Apr 16 - 06:01 AM

I think the proof of the pudding is YOUR statement:

"Neither the Sherwood Foresters or the crew of the Helga knew where this perceived rebel artillery fire was coming from ............"

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Apr 16 - 05:45 AM

Nice bit of selective cut-n-paste there Raggy - Now look at all of it:

never mind Raggy another own goal based on ignorance. As far as gunnery goes you know nothing, and even when you supply the link you completely fail to understand what it very clearly stated. Just for you I will take you through it. It is no surprise to me at all that no-one was killed and that HMY Helga even although tied up alongside the wall was not hit.

Go back and read what I said was required to obtain a "Firing Solution". Then piece together how many elements the gunners firing did not have.

Both the Soldiers of the Sherwood Foresters and the crew of the Helga thought that they were under fire from rebel artillery. Neither the Sherwood Foresters or the crew of the Helga knew where this perceived rebel artillery fire was coming from and guess what Raggy? If you don't know where your target is you stand no chance of hitting it."

Now where in any of that do I state that I believe that it actually happened?

Also please refrain from sidestepping MY questions - Tell us how it would be possible for your volunteer to see what he said he had seen.

As to fires being started by British Artillery fire Raggy. Looting started on Sackville Street at 15:30 on Monday 24th April 1916, the fires were started by looters in Sackville Street around 20:30 that night - OK then Raggy when did the British bring up their first piece of artillery? About a day later wasn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Apr 16 - 05:36 AM

"Both the Soldiers of the Sherwood Foresters and the crew of the Helga thought that they were under fire from rebel artillery. Neither the Sherwood Foresters or the crew of the Helga knew where this perceived rebel artillery fire was coming from and guess what Raggy? If you don't know where your target is you stand no chance of hitting it."

Your quote Terribombast, it would seem that you too believe the report.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Apr 16 - 05:17 AM

Thanks for that link Keith very interesting.

Raggy please indicate where I state that I believed the tale about the Sherwood Foresters and the crew of the Helga exchanging fire? You crowed about it and gleefully wittered on about how they couldn't hit a stationary target - I merely offered you an explanation as to why under such circumstances they wouldn't hit each other.

Toddle off to a nice quiet place and sit down and read your "Volunteers" story one more time and this time read it with a healthy dose of scepticism, ask yourself how he while under fire in a city centre that was under fire and under siege manage to:

1: Observe what the Sherwood Foresters were doing from their position whilst simultaneously being able to observe what the gunners on the Helga were doing.

2: How was he capable of witnessing respective fall of shot simultaneously.

You see Raggy it simply does not add up to any sentient human being, but makes a great story for the gullible.

According to RTE's chronological account of the Easter Rising:

Tuesday 25th April 1916 HMY Helga opened fire at Bolands Mill at 20:15 hitting the upper floors and damaging them

Wednesday 26th April 1916 between 08:30 and 12:00 HMY Helga fired on Liberty Hall. The building was destroyed and the guns of HMY Helga were turned on targets in Sackville Street. I have no reason to believe that RTE or their researchers lied in formulating their summary of events.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Apr 16 - 04:22 AM

When you can produce the log of the Helga and not some snippets from another cut and paste maybe someone will take notice professor.

By the way Teriblossom seems to think they did shell Sackville Street I'm sure you said they didn't.

Quote from Cherryblossom "Without any shadow of a doubt fire from Helga's 12 pounder hit Liberty Hall, Bolands Mill and Sackville Street"

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Apr 16 - 04:14 AM

A definition of indiscriminate fire by Mr Teribus from a day or two back "By the way indiscriminate fire is when you just blaze away in a general direction for an indeterminate time with no attempt made to identify or hit a specific target"

Hmmmmmmmm

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Apr 16 - 04:11 AM

Rag,

I have a bit of a problem when one part of the British forces are raining shells down on another part of the British forces

Eye witnesses sometimes lie, and myths are created.
He claims that the gunners, suddenly provided with a game changing weapon, use it to blaze away at a flagpole instead of the rebels.
Why?

He says that the shells landed near the Helga which is ridiculous. They would have landed two miles further on.

He says the spray soaked the crew. Such puny rounds could not even splash the deck.

The log of the Helga would report coming under fire if it really happened.
It does not. The whole thing is a fantasy. A lie on which a myth has grown.

Log of Helga
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=XxV4CwAAQBAJ&pg=PT52&lpg=PT52&dq=log+of+the++helga+dublin&source=bl&ots=DXOF7sGF7f&sig=-Y1GA

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Apr 16 - 03:56 AM

"Both the Soldiers of the Sherwood Foresters and the crew of the Helga thought that they were under fire from rebel artillery. Neither the Sherwood Foresters or the crew of the Helga knew where this perceived rebel artillery fire was coming from and guess what Raggy? IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHERE YOUR TARGET IS YOU STAND NO CHANCE OF HITTING IT"
(Terribus quote, my capital)

So, they were just firing at something they thought might be vaguely over there somewhere.

Now MOST people would describe that as indiscriminate.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 07:41 PM

The views of the resident population counted for naught whether they supported the rising or not. I doubt if a consensus of opinion was taken ............... unless you of course, with your wonderful insight into military intelligence, know different.

Certainly the views of the population meant nothing to the rebels.

As to a consensus Rags who was it the citizens of Dublin were cheering as they hauled that gun through the streets? When food supplies started to run low throughout the city who was it that opened the warehouses and distributed food to where it was needed? Give you a hint it certainly was not Pearse, Connolly & Co.

When they abandoned the GPO and moved into Moore Street they again deliberately put civilians at risk as when they moved in the civilians tried to flee, unfortunately nobody on the rebel side cared enough to let the soldiers know that, finally to prevent further loss of civilian life and in an impossible situation Pearse and Connolly decided to surrender - after six days the rebel Irish Government made a decision with the best interests of the people in mind - six effin days too late.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 07:30 PM

The British troops with a gun apiece were firing at each other
.............. wonderful military joined up thinking and co-ordination there.

Not just for one shot apiece but for numerous shots apiece and neither managed to hit a static target a matter of a few hundreds yards away.

(That is each other, not the flag which, bless 'em, they did manage to hit once, three cheers for the Royal Navy hip, hip ..... OK don't bother)

Oh dear, how sad, never mind Raggy another own goal based on ignorance. As far as gunnery goes you know nothing, and even when you supply the link you completely fail to understand what it very clearly stated. Just for you I will take you through it. It is no surprise to me at all that no-one was killed and that HMY Helga even although tied up alongside the wall was not hit.

Go back and read what I said was required to obtain a "Firing Solution". Then piece together how many elements the gunners firing did not have.

Both the Soldiers of the Sherwood Foresters and the crew of the Helga thought that they were under fire from rebel artillery. Neither the Sherwood Foresters or the crew of the Helga knew where this perceived rebel artillery fire was coming from and guess what Raggy? If you don't know where your target is you stand no chance of hitting it.

Without any shadow of a doubt fire from Helga's 12 pounder hit Liberty Hall, Bolands Mill and Sackville Street. The fire on Liberty Hall (Helga's longest engagement) lasted only three and a half hours.

The fires in Sackville Street were initially started not by artillery fire but by looters, in the following days both sides started fires to cover their movements and to hinder attacks. The fire in the Irish Times was started when rolls of print paper caught fire after the building was hit by a HE shell, the Druggists when oil caught fire, there is no evidence at all regarding incendiary shells being used. The majority of soldiers deployed from England were straight out of training and had been waiting at Watford to be deployed in France.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 03:57 PM

" Yet another own goal Raggy: in full view of the population of the city they were trying to subdue."

Exactly that Cherrycola. The British forces were trying to subdue the city.

The views of the resident population counted for naught whether they supported the rising or not. I doubt if a consensus of opinion was taken ............... unless you of course, with your wonderful insight into military intelligence, know different.

PS Do not know what an oxymoron is?

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 03:40 PM

Not answering the questions yet Cheeriblossom. Trying to fudge and deflect as per normal.

The British troops with a gun apiece were firing at each other
.............. wonderful military joined up thinking and co-ordination there.

Not just for one shot apiece but for numerous shots apiece and neither managed to hit a static target a matter of a few hundreds yards away.

(That is each other, not the flag which, bless 'em, they did manage to hit once, three cheers for the Royal Navy hip, hip ..... OK don't bother)

Yet another example of the might of the British Empire in all it's glory.

What the hell HMS Belfast has to do with this particular discussion I don't know .......... except for it is another feeble attempt to deflect criticism away from your beloved, but inept armed forces.

Go back to your toy soldiers.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 02:50 PM

Yet another own goal Raggy:

"in full view of the population of the city they were trying to subdue."

Would that be the population that was cheering the British troops on Raggy? The population that DeValera purposely put at risk, while at the same time claiming to represent - I'd have told him to f**k-off and represent somebody else, in 1916 preferably German?

Ranging for NGFS? Two possibly three shots to direct the guns onto target then once the order "Fire for effect" is given there can be anything up to 60 shells on their way to the target before the next shell lands. Even HMS Belfast tied up in the Pool of London when in commission could manage 120 6" shells - I believe that she was once used to stop an attack by a Panzer Division that was threatening one of the landings in Italy.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 02:44 PM

Hey Cherryblossom you still haven't responded to my earlier questions.

Can you tell us the percentage of your practise artillery firing was accurate:

1. From the first shot.

2. Overall.

3. Would your figures have been achievable in 1916.

Don't bother with the last one I think everyone knows the answer to that already.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 02:36 PM

Just remind me cherriblossom about how good the accuracy and precision of shelling a known target is. .What was it you said, something like aim, amend,correct and then hit the target. Precision I think came into it somewhere

I have a bit of a problem when one part of the British forces are raining shells down on another part of the British forces. Especially when you consider that one part of the British forces where in fact tethered on a stretch of quite a narrow river in full view of the population of the city they were trying to subdue.

Exactium my arseium. Couldn't hit a barn door at five paces. Hope you could do better when you were doing the firing, although I somehow doubt it.

Go back to playing at being soldiers, you seem to be slightly better at that.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 02:29 PM

I'd give up if I were you, Steve. If you tell a lie enough times some people will believe it. You and I and many others know the truth and all that matters is that you know really.

I can't recall how often I have used this quote. Just once for ake, twice for someone else and the rest for Keith. Are you sure your in-laws speak the same language? :-D

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone. "It means just what I choose it to mean - neither more or less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master - that's all."
   
Lewis Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 02:18 PM

"The obscene profit in ceramic poppies was presented as a linked fact."

Come on then Jom provide us with a link that supports your preposterous claim with regard to the Ceramic Poppies.

Here are some actual facts 888,246 poppies made, cost of manufacture, packing and transport ~£8 million (Cost per poppy £9). All poppies sold for £25 each generating £22,206,150 leaving ~£14 million to be split between six nominated charities by the Royal British Legion.

"Charities benefiting from the Tower of London poppies are set for a £1 million boost after George Osborne announced he will waive the VAT from the sale of the ceramic flowers."

The British public did not lose out as this £1.1 million would be made up with resulting fines levied on Banks caught up in the Libor Scandal. So Jom Charities benefited to the tune of over £15 million. Now what obscene profits are you wittering on about

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 01:51 PM

Steve, I had already quoted the separate words of dismissal he used to rubbish them.
I did not change the meaning.
He rubbished and dismissed them both, as I did, and endorsed the findings of current historians, as I do.

His whole article endorsed the case I was making.
I had no need to misrepresent him, and I did not.

And that was in 2014, and its all you can put up against me.
My reputation is intact Steve.
Your accusation, "we often find we can't believe a word you say." can not be substantiated, like so many assertions you make.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 01:44 PM

Some other bits from Raggy's link:

Dubliners cheered the British troops dragging the 1 pounder gun landed from the Helga into position to fire on the rebels.

Who was it that hoisted the flag on a top to deliberately mislead and misdirect fire thereby potentially putting civilian lives at risk - Eamon DeValera wasn't it Raggy? But as your link states - No lives were lost in the Artillery dual your link describes.

The link showing Liberty Hall shows that the gun-fire from the Helga wasn't too shoddy judging by the entry holes that can be seen.

Jom, as Keith A states Firemen probably had no idea what Heavy Artillery was, remember in 1914 the British didn't have any and unless the Firemen of Dublin kept themselves abreast of the changes being wrought in the army of Great Britain then there was no reason why they would know the difference - Sort of like you and Raggy they'd be clueless.

Now tell us all what Heavy Artillery Units of the British Army were deployed in Dublin on the 24th April 1916.

You have still to demonstrate where and when you have shot me down.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 01:20 PM

Congratulations, Keith, for changing the English language in order to make "rather vulgar" mean the same thing as "fraudulent." While you're at it, would you also like to make "lie" mean the same thing as "truth?"

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 12:22 PM

Jim,
Keith has not responded to one single point I have just put up - confirmation of his on-going claim of 'honesty'

That is because I am not aware of any unanswered points.
I KEEP asking you put them to me.
Why don't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 12:18 PM

Jim, a fireman may not understand the difference between heavy and field artillery.
There was nothing bigger than an 18 pounder in Dublin, and that is a field gun.

Steve, having given the full quote, I later conflated the two different disparaging words he used to dismiss each author into one.
No deceit. No change of meaning.
He rubbished both, and supported the findings of present day historians which was my case.

Rag, so I was right and the idiocy was yours.
An apology is in order.

The story teller said that the one pounder fired at the flag atop Bolands Mill tower from 400 yards.
Those shells would go far beyond the Liffey.

The story teller also says,
"the one pounder's return shot coming so close to hitting the Helga that the resultant explosion soaked their crew!"

There is less explosive in such a shell than a handgrenade.
The spray would not reach the deck, never mind soak the crew.
The whole yarn is fantasy.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 11:52 AM

"This is heavy Artillery and the link below shows where it was deployed please use the link provided to show where Heavy Artillery was deployed in Dublin in 1916:"
Not again - you've had the statement based on the Firemen's logs.
I responded to all your points - as this seems to be the only one you want to challenge - I assume we have agreement on the rest.
"A name he gave himself Raggy By the way "
Another example of your small-mindedness - don't you find it a little pathetic to substitute typos for argument - which we are all prone to - you use my typo because your imagination doesn't extend to creating your own, Terrybyte - .
"I rather liked it and retained the use of it"
"Jom" - utterly earth-shattering -
Keith has not responded to one single point I have just put up - confirmation of his on-going claim of 'honesty'
Try again:
"26 Apr 16 - 07:14 AM"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 11:21 AM

Dear Jom (A name he gave himself Raggy By the way - I rather liked it and retained the use of it)

This is heavy Artillery and the link below shows where it was deployed please use the link provided to show where Heavy Artillery was deployed in Dublin in 1916:

British Heavy Artillery 1914 to 1918

Now here is what was used in Dublin in 1916, they are Field Artillery pieces + a 12 pounder Naval QF Gun + a Naval 1 pounder Gun:


Naval 12 pounder


18 pounder Field Gun

Naval 1 pounder Gun - note shoulder rest



See the difference Jom?

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 10:51 AM

Yes Professor the 1lb shells were fired by British troops and landed in the Liffey just where the Helga was lying and she fired back with 12 pounders. Shells going all over the place but as teriblossom would tell us all very disciplined and fired with precision following exacting procedures.

My arse.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 10:36 AM

"Steve, I was repeating a truth not a lie."

Did you or did you not say that AJP Taylor's book was fraudulent, according to Wheatcroft? YES.

Did Wheatcroft say that AJP Taylor's book was fraudulent? NO.

Conclusion??

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 10:33 AM

No Rag. You need to read it again.
According to the story, it was shells from the one pounder, fired up at the flag, that landed in the Liffey.
That gun has a range of 4 500 yards, over 2 miles, and fired at a high angle that is how far they would go.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 10:18 AM

Idiot. The shells that fell into the Liffey came from their own troops returning fire.

Are you capable of reading anything without getting it wrong.


Don't bother to respond to that I already know the answer.


Now just ask yourself where the shells that missed the flagpole exploded?

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 10:17 AM

Jim, an 18 pounder is heavy in that you would not want it to run over your foot, but it is not "heavy artillery."
It is a field gun.
http://www.dennisstinton.co.uk/artillery-ww1

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 10:14 AM

I find the concept of winning or losing a debate with people you do not know or care for, on an internet forum that does not matter, quite absurd. While most people like to discuss things in a lively way and are prepared to give and take a little, there are others just want to win at any cost. Therein lies insanity and the root of most of these arguments. There are also those who like to fan the flames but when they get their fingers burned they run off crying to Mummy. It takes all sorts I suppose...

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 09:48 AM

Steve, I was repeating a truth not a lie.
Wheatcroft believes what I believe, his whole article supported my case, and I quoted the whole of the passage in question.
My reputation stands. No-one has ever found a lie of mine. I would much rather lose a debate than sink to that.

Do you have anything else on me?
You said "often."
Not true is it Steve.
A lie.

Rag,

According to the last link I put on the gunner TRIED about a dozen times and only actually hit the target once.

The writer asks us to believe that instead of engaging the rebels, those gunners blazed away at a flag pole!

Also that the shells somehow braked and fell into the Liffey!

Also that the Helga returned fire at the gun, invisible as it was among the buildings, which would be impossible.

He reports many other things he would have no way of knowing.

It is a good story, but much of it is fantasy.
A soldier's yarn, or a composite of many such yarns.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 09:09 AM

☺

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 08:15 AM

I note your recent sense of humour bypass surgery, Michael.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 08:03 AM

I have often heard that people become child-like as they get on in life, especially in their later years. Is this why they sometimes revert to child-like speech and behaviour. I have to say it is rather tedious and doesn't say very much for their intelligence really.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 07:24 AM

Just an ickle hint, dear ole Steve -- Check on distinction between metaphysics and metaphors... Or it'll be a Marvell if you don't get Donne...

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 07:14 AM

"No heavy artillery in Dublin"
You've been given s link that says there was and the firemen's log books put the damage they were dealing with down to heavy artillery - you wwere given evidence of all this.
You may, of course, know more than they did, but, in your inimitable fashion, still omit to supply a link to any of your claims, so we have to take you at your word - I don't.
"Wealthy pre-word War One Liverpool"
Again - no link.
The period was one of mass poverty and deprivation - don't need Government supplied figures for this one My parents were born in the early 1900s and my grandparents on both sides, spoke of their situation regularly.
Both Liverpool and Dublin were massively poor citied - the link I provided from Queens Uni. in Belfast specified as a reason fo volunteering for WW1 was the poverty and mass unemployment (alonng with other reasons).
But again, you appear to know more and again, you provide no linkd.
I provided a link to a University study of pre-war conditions in Liverpool - ignored and contradicted without proof of your own.
"Democratic Britain in the early 1800s"
The period of "reform " you mention saw the most controversial land enclosures in history, The Poaching Wars, the transportation of The Tolpuddle Martyrs for attempting to set up a Trade Union, the Highland Clearances were in full swing in Scotland, evictions of tenants forced many of them to emigrate to Canada in their hundreds of thousands, pretty much the same as with Ireland and the mine and mill owners were taking advantage of the mass emigrations to drive down wages and to stop the rise of the new Trades Unions.
Half the adult population of Britain had no vote and attempts by women to change that situation gave rise to police violence, imprisonment, forced feeding and humiliation - women only got the vote by agreeing to join the British campaign to decimate Britain's youth on the killing fields of Europe in WW1.
A democratic heaven, you might say!
"The Redmondites were not in power and as that is plainly true then they could not enact or repeal anything"
I didn't say they were capable of either - I said the described the Treaty they had previously supported as a "betrayal" because it had been altered to make partition permanent.
Stop distorting what I say.
The obscene profit in ceramic poppies was presented as a linked fact.
"No it is not, because I believe that I have answered, as I asked you before, please say what you think I missed."
You have now had it put up and you still haven't answered any of them
Britain attempted to introduce compulsory conscription in Ireland in 1918 - what part of that fact do you have a problem with?
Had Ireland not opposed British rule, there would have been no reason whatever that it should have been left out of the bloodbath - why should they have been left out while the rest of British youth was being slaughtered?
"The British parliament passed the act before the rising,"
And altered it in July 1916 to make the partition of the six counties permanent - it was originally intended that these counties (originally the whole of Ulster, but altered when it was realised that this would give the Catholics a majority in the North) would be partitioned until a year after the war ended.
Even the Parliamentary Irish rejected the re-written treaty - Redmond described it as "a betrayal"
The Republicans who took part in the Rising did so because they realised that Britain had no intention of ratifying any treaty that did not meet its own interests.
You have been given all this before, what part of this do you have problems with; if none, why are you raising it again and again and again.....?
Britain was finally forced to concede a form of Independence, at the threat of an alternative of "a signature or war", which lead to immediate Civil War in the 26 Counties, built in financial, political and land-owning injustice, inequality and hardship for the Catholic third of the six counties, and a near-century of unrest and bloodshed.
What problems do you have with any of this?
The Rising did not have the support of those in the immediately vicinity, (I told you this years ago), but there is no indication whatever of how the rest of Ireland felt - they were never asked.
It doesn't matter anyway - within a matter of months the Rebels had the complete support of the Irish people, a support which led to a full-scale war of independence which ended overall rule in Ireland by the wealthiest and most powerful Empire the world has known being kicked out ignominiously by poorly armed irregular fighters.
The Rising has since been considered the turning-point in Irish history by the Irish people as a whole.
You, who have stated you know nothing of Irish history and have never read a book on the subject, have taken onto yourself to describe the Irish people as a whole as gullible and misled in their beliefs and written-off that fully accepted Irish turning point with contempt - what does that make you Keith?
You said earlier that "we can finish this."
Your stated contempt for the Irish people and their knowledge of their own history wil never be "finished" until you withdraw your appalling statement or qualify it - it verges on racism to suggest that an entire nation is gullible enough to have been misled by propaganda on its own history and that you, with your declared ignorance and disinterest, know more than they do.
If anything, your stated contempt has been written into the history of this forum in your own words."
You have to provided answers to these question, you just keep repeating the same denials, as you still are - you claim you have answered them - this is simply untrue.
I have specifically asked if you have any problems with the facts I provided - are they true, did I make them up - If you have answered any of these and provided proof - where are your answers - not here?
I have asked you over and over again if you believe the Irish people to be stupid and ignorant to have been so fooled into supporting the Rising and in your own words "murder in cold blood" - if you have answered, where have you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 07:13 AM

Call the apostrophe police!

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 07:12 AM

Yikes! Ill try again.

I was speaking metaphysically when I referred to your dentures, in order to draw more attention to that great age you endure which seems to have the unfortunate effect of making you flog dead horses. End of, yet again.

And Keith, you can repeat a lie a thousand times but you will never make it true. Your reputation is in tatters. Who do you think you're kidding?

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 07:10 AM

I was speaking metaphysically when I referred to your dentures, in order to draw more attention to that great age you endure which seems to have the unfortunate effect of making you flog dead h End of again End of again

And Keith, you can repeat a lie a thousand times but you will never make it true. Your reputation is in tatters. Who do you think you're kidding?

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 06:28 AM

Ah I get it! Deliberately targeted fire is when you try to hit a target and miss. Sod the consequences of that action, we TRIED to hit the target. We failed miserably but at least we knew what we were trying to do when we missed the target.

According to the last link I put on the gunner TRIED about a dozen times and only actually hit the target once.

Brilliant that, gives me faith in everything you bullshit about. Back to the drawing board Terribombast, go and play with your toy soldiers again.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 06:24 AM

& I'll decide for myself when it's "end of", tanx v much justa same, without any unsolicited arrogation from so impertinently pre-emptive an organism as your·goodself, my good man...