BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 02:08 AM

That is grossly unfair Jeri
As far as I'm concerned this subject is important, it cetainly interests me.
At the present time, the whole of Ireland is celebrating what it regards to be one of the most important events in its history; the equivalent of, say, the 200th anniversary of U.S. Independence, which I can remember being celebrated in London way back, with traditional musicians and singers I was then involved with.
Whether you are interested or not, others find that subject interesting, I certainly do as those who have participated in this thread and who are also celebrating it in Ireland.
Two people have decided to use this thread to attack the Irish as a race and have gone to great lengths to do this.
There is still much to be said on the subject.
Exactly the same has happened with the same two people not too long ago when the subject was The Irish Famine.
Sure - we could walk away and leave them to it - we could do that whenever any two bully boys decide to take over any subject and drive it into the ground.
That's not the way free speech works.
I have treated this subject as responsibly as I am able - I have sought out masses of information which I believe to be relevant and put it up because I believe it to be interesting.
I have not been unreasonably rude, I don't think; I am fully aware I have been in the past, but I agreed with Joe's requests and have done my best to clean up my act.
I have no idea what your interest is in this topic or if you have any at all.
You, or anybody, is perfectly free to join in this discussion - I desperately wish somebody else would - or you are entitled to ignore it.
You are not entitled to tell me how I should or should not make my contributions unless I have overstepped the mark - I don't believe I have here.
You are certainly not entitled to suggest that I be thrown off this forum unless you believe I have broken its rules, and certainly not in the ill-mannered and hostile way you have.
You may choose to judge the merits of these arguments for yourself - other comments I have read of yours elsewhere suggest you are perfectly capable of doing so - but I will not be lumped in with a pair of trolls without comment.
This argument, as far as I am concerned, has now taken the form of crude and obvious racism against an entire people
It may not worry you, it certainly does me.
I apologies if I have expressed myself too bluntly - I now find myself far angrier than I can ever remember being on this forum, or anywhere for that matter.
I sincerely hope that the administrators of this thread do not close this thread and allow the culprits to get away with their behavour - that would be, in my opinion, the death of free speech on Mudcat.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jeri
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 04:03 PM

It never stops.

Neither one of you ever shuts up, and I'd be happy if Max could kick the both of you the fuck off Mudcat. It ain't gonna happen though.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 03:22 PM

This has begone beyond an irritating joke to something far more sinister.
IF THE IRISH HAVE BEEN BRAINWASHED TO HATE THE ENGLISH, WHERE IS THAT HATRED? Are you seriously suggesting that we are living in an 'Invasion of the Bodysnatchers' world where everybody is not really what they seem and they have really all been conditioned to hate us?
Do the people I grew up with really hate me because I am English?
You are now totally insane - your obsessive hatred has probably made you so
Has it ever occurred to you that it's not the English the Irish hate, just people like you to who drench them in racist abuse - I've often wondered why the Irish don't hate the English considering the centuries of abuse they have been put through - and you are displaying a form of that abuse now.
There are Irish people who contribute to this thread, I know several of them personally and I am aware that they share my interest in Irish history.
Have we all been brainwashed to think alike and hate the English like ***** zombies?
One of the things we had to get used to when we became regular visitors to Ireland was the fact that we were surrounded by practicing Christians - while I didn't share their beliefs, I always admired those who reflected the "love thy fellow man" teachings of their religion - especially the older ones - you appear to be totally devoid of such an attitude.
You claim to be a Christian - have you been brainwashed to behave in the way that no other Christian I have ever met does?
You want to understand what those writers really say, then I suggest you overcome your "disinterest" and read their books.
You want to prove that the Irish have been bnrainwashed to hate, then tell us how that hatred manifests itself.
I watched with a degree of grim amusement when you told Fergie; "
Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
-21 Apr 16 - 12-12 PM Sorry Fergie, but the fact is that none of your points stand up.
I "dismissed" them only by showing them to be false.
You have been taken in by propaganda in place of hard history"
He had not long completed his CD at the time and I know he had put a fair time researching the songs on it, yet you, who have stated quite clearly that you have never read a book on Ireland and have no interest in doing so, could make such a crassly arrogant statement.
You are now abusing me in exactly the same way, and my family, friends and neighbours.
I suggest you stop this NOW - this abusive racism has gone far enough.
If you don't, I will be tempted to ask Joe to have you removed - this forum doesn't need people who dish up this sort of hateful garbage.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 01:50 PM

how dare you claim they are all brainwashed on the basis of a few out of context comments by people

They were not out of context.
I provided links to the sources of the comments so that they could be seen in their original, intended context.
Your accusation is shown to be false.

You haven't read Kineally's book yet you continue to claim something that she does not believe - I have read her book - you call me a liar.

You make a liar of yourself Jim.
Here is the History Ireland article where she plainly states exactly what I said she did.
http://www.historyireland.com/18th-19th-century-history/beyond-revisionism-reassessing-the-great-irish-famine/

How can you claim it has or if that it happened if you can give no example of it.

I did give examples.

Prove me wrong and tell my how that "hate" manifests itself.

I did.

To say the Irish have been "branwashed" is aa squalid a racist attack as they come,

Then all those historians are guilty of it.
I just quoted them.

Produce your evidence of hate or stop this distasteful nonsense

I have quoted three historians who state that Irish schoolchildren have been "indoctrinated" with "anti-British propaganda."

One of them stated that her own indoctrination made her want to join IRA.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 11:45 AM

Not sure where you are Raggy and how long you're around, but there's a nice singing session in Kinvarra - 'tother side of Galway City, on Tuesday Night - Greene's Bar - at least one Mudcatter is a regular.
Starts late (10ish) and goes on til' the landlady gets fed up.
Worth the effort if you're in the mood.
Not much hatred down there either.
Did you know the late maker of folk films, Philip Donnellan, used to own Mason's Island, off the coast from Carna?
Not a lot of people know that!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 11:43 AM

Now let us see what history according to Jim Carroll tells us:

1: That the Irish Volunteers who largely supported the Home Rule Bill that they were formed to defend did not split with the advent of the First World War to become the National Volunteers (Redmond Faction which comprised 92.5% of the movement) and the Irish Volunteers ( the IRB Faction which comprised only 7.5% of the movement)

2: That some 210,000 Irishmen volunteered to serve in the British Army during the First World War did not represent any significant political faction while the 1,500 people who Pearse and Connolly lied to and completely hoodwinked into joining their "Blood Sacrifice" somehow do represent the political views of the people of Ireland at that time. Jim absolutely deplores the blood sacrifice made to preserve freedom, justice, and liberty in France, but totally supports the betrayal of the men who foolishly followed Connelly and Pearse in Easter 1916.

3: That the Irish Volunteers of 1916 did not become the IRA of 19th January 1919

4: That the IRA who fought the war of independence were also the IRA that fought the Civil War - Nationalist against Nationalist - might is right, fortunately for all they lost.

Jim wants us all to believe that the IRA only became the IRA to fight the Unionists and unite Ireland - utter bloody hogwash and I do not need a single quote, a single link or any vast log boring and pointless screed to back that up - all you have to do is look at where we are today.

History consists of events that actually happened, it does not consist of events that you only think happened. Of all the people who took up the gun in Ireland in 1913 the Republican Nationalists were the only ones to actually through their own choice use them and to what result? A united independent Ireland is further away today than it was 102 years ago - FACT - haven't they done well.

Hope that you have had fun "celebrating" all that bloodshed Jim - it after all got them nowhere as far as a united independent Ireland goes.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 11:16 AM

Very pleased to hear that you are enjoying yourself Raggy - long may you continue to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 10:52 AM

Now having a day off from decorating and took a walk on a local island which can be reached at low tide across a causeway. Didn,t leave the pub till 2.30 this morning when the music was still going strong.

As usual I have nothing but kindness and hospitality from a wonderful nation of people.

More music tonight and then back up a ladder tomorrow with a brush and roller !!

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 07:55 AM

British Empire - failed.
British attempt to subdue Ireland - failed
Attempts of a pair of hate driven clown to make a case - failed miserably
Attepts to denigrate the Irish people with their racist attacks - failed
Get some facts to back your claims - done with your uncorroborated, hate-driven theories.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 07:52 AM

Get some facts to back your claims - done with your uncorroborated, hate-driven theories.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 07:15 AM

The IRA wasw a product of the British partitioning of Ireland

Nope the IRA was the product of Sinn Fein's declaration of war in January 1919 and the product of Eamon de Valera's Civil War - Irishmen fighting Irishmen, one group attempting to coerce the other to "their" way.

The track record of the IRA so far has been:

Easter Rising - Failed

Irish War of Independence - Stalemate that resulted in a Peace Treaty that brought about the creation of a 26 county Republic of Ireland and a six county Northern Ireland that wanted to be part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Irish Civil War - Failed

1939-1940 Bombing Campaign - Failed

1956-1962 Border Campaign - Failed

1969-1998 "Troubles" - Failed

Because of the path taken by the Republican Nationalists since 1914 a united Ireland is further away today than it was 102 years ago.

The teaching of myths lays the ground work, proof that it works? Just read your own posts Jim Carroll, neither Keith A or myself have referred to any section of the population as "Blow-In Newcomers" who have no rights - you on the other hand have.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 05:24 AM

Incidentally Keith - I don't rely on historians for my knowledge of Irish education or whether the Irish hate Britain - especially ones I haven't read, like you.
Many of my family are Irish and have undergone an Irish education; I've lived among Irish people all of my life, relatives, friends close associates at work and with my music.
I have now lived in Ireland for nearly twenty years
I have had a lifelong interest in Irish history (you have confessed you have none) - I've quoted chunks from our books (which you have chosen to ignore - that's how much respect you have for historians)
How dare you attempt to counteract that with your handful of cut-'n-pastes?
Produce your evidence of hate or stop this distasteful nonsense
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 05:16 AM

"Jim, I have no experience of Irish schools."
Then how dare you claim they are all brainwashed on the basis of a few out of context comments by people who have failed to perovide a qualification for what you claim they said?
You haven't read Kineally's book yet you continue to claim something that she does not believe - I have read her book - you call me a liar.
"How can you claim that has had no effect?"
How can you claim it has or if that it happened if you can give no example of it.
That ought to be enough to convince you you are wrong.
You are more interested in your hate-driven agenda - yours is the hate - not the Irish
Prove me wrong and tell my how that "hate" manifests itself.
The IRA wasw a product of the British partitioning of Ireland - not the Irish education system - todays IRA are mainly made up of British citizens living and having been educated in The North.
You can only substantiate historians if you have read them and have understood fully what they are saying - Kineally and Diarmuid Ferriter's baptism of fire proved that.
To say the Irish have been "branwashed" is aa squalid a racist attack as they come, aimed at adults and children, to deny you said what you said and accuse me of making it up is blatantly dishonest and now to come back and say the same thing is stupid beyond words.
You are beyond a joke.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 04:24 AM

Jim, I have no experience of Irish schools.
I learned from the work of historians that it has "indoctrinated" generations of children with "anti-British propaganda."
How can you claim that has had no effect?
Of course it has.
We have Professor Richardson own testimony of how it made her want to join IRA.

It is easy to find other examples of hatred.
The random machine-gunning of diners in a London restaurant by an IRA unit.
The recent murder of an Irish prison officer because he was employed by UK state.

I have substantiated the "indoctrination" by quoting three historians.
How many have you found Jim?
Is it none?

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 03:47 AM

"As I said, some Irish must inevitably hate Britain if they believe all the lies fed to them as children."
Only some Keith, after, how did you put it "generations of school children have been brainwashed to believe Britain should be blamed, keeping hate alive." ?
That's not much of a result for generations of brainwashing, is it.
Do you know any of these people or can you describe what form this hatred takes?
No you *******can't, because it doesn't exist; it is a figment of your twisted imagination - an invention on your part.
Yes - there is inter-religious on the island of Ireland - we'll be getting a display of it in couple of weeks time - in Derry and Belfast and Drumcree...... in British Ireland.
The Irish as a group, are the most friendly, hospitable and welcoming people I have ever met - to Britons and to all visitors - the are noted for it - 'cead mile failte' means exactly what it says - one hundred thousand welcomes.
You have been unable to give one general example of Irish hatred towards the British - one speck of evidence of your claims - so once again you lied, you made it all up for some reason, I suggest because of your hatred of the Irish rather than the other way around - sure - we know 'some of your best friends are Irish' - of course they are.
The Irish I know are gregarious, friendly and outward looking - welcoming to strangers from anywhere in the world - a far cry from my experiences in London (you have been given the figures of admitted racism in Britain)
Doesn't mean racism doesn't exist here, of course it does, but it does not impinge on our daily lives as it did in Britain, where, to my shame, I often avoided expressing my views on racism for fear of causing an argument.
Irish kids are bilingual from schooldays and many will take on other languages when they leave school - off the top of my head I can think of youngsters who are conversant in German, Greek, Japanese, Arabic, French, Russian, Czech..... mainly working kids from a farming background - beats the little Englander attitude that appears to ooze from every pore of you pair of bigots.
They will use those skills to travel the globe to seek work and fresh experiences while back home, you are erecting walls to keep foreigners out and voting on whether Britain wishes to be part of Europe.
Your schizophrenic invention of generations of brainwashed kids was bizarre in every sense.
First you made your hate-filled statement, then you denied making it and accused me of inventing it, now you are back in full-swing, hating away.
You claim a hate-filled Irish people, yet you refuse to give examples - so, as I said, you made it all up.
I don't think I have ever come across two more arrogant, detesting, national-self-important, anachronistic bigots in my life, still fighting the battles of the Empire and waving the flag for a Britain that no longer has any industry to speak of and is totally dependent on buying abroad, and politically has become the tail of the U.S. dog, to be wagged to order.
British people are, in general wonderful to live among, talented, humane (if somewhat reserved in places) and generous and by and large, tolerant of most things (you pair seem to be misfits), but boy, are they being given the shitty end of the stick by our politicians!
This has been one of the most distastefully racist-generated arguments I have ever experienced (slightly in front of those on The Famine) - you have openly lied and distorted, you have dismissed documented facts and have refused to give any of your own, you personally have admitted having neither knowledge of or interest in Irish history, yet you have kept up your spray of vitriol against the Irish - you are both microcosms of Imperial Britain at its very worst.
I would ask you again to provide examples of the hate-filled Irish towards the British people, but I know I would be wasting my time.
I'll have a quick shufti to see if I can find any worthwhile information for you to ignore, then I'm gone - another nice day here and some nice people to meet to get rid the foul taste you pair have left in my mouth.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 01:55 AM

I take it then Jim that you didn't watch that documentary on the IRA's border campaign of 1956 to 1962. But of course you wouldn't because in the nice cosy world of Jim Carroll it never happened - and you've got the brass neck to accuse people of denying fact.

Unfortunately the documentary does exist, as do the interviews:

"Was it worth it? No in the final analysis I'd have to say it wasn't" - Tony Meade

In relation to the activities of the PIRA later in "The Troubles" - "What was done was unconscionable"

The inspiring example that led to all this according to the volunteers interviewed? The seven men who signed the 1916 Proclamation.

History is the study of what actually happened, not the study of things that you personally think happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 04:04 PM

Do you believe the Irish hate Britons?
If they do, how does that manifest itself?

As I said, some Irish must inevitably hate Britain if they believe all the lies fed to them as children.
Professor Richardson did. In her case it was manifested as a desire to join IRA.
There is a wide spectrum of ways in which hate can be manifested, and I am not getting in to it.

I said, " generations of school children have been brainwashed to believe Britain should be blamed, keeping hate alive."

That is substantiated by the historians.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 03:41 PM

More denials - no evidence - your meglomania appears to know no bounds.
And nothing from Keith - now you are both lying - offcial
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 02:38 PM

Their researches cover from the 1600s to the mid-1970s - can't get any more comprehensive than that.

Utter bullshit "their" researches particularly his as a novelist and writer of fiction is superficial and barely scratches the surface compared to any historian who specialises in a particular period who will devote his entire life to the study of that period. "Their researches" covers what they saw as being necessary to cover what work of fiction was going to be written for commercial gain - as the primary market for this epic on Oirland would be the good ol' US of A - you would not even have to read it to predict what slant would be put on the story in order for it to sell - one thing for certain objectivity would not enter into either the research or writing of the story.

"Kinealy states that children were fed "nationalist myths" as history." - (Factual quote of what Kinealy said)

During the "Fee State" period - I've read her book

And as per usual with you, you obviously haven't understood a single bloody word of it.

Now tell us all about the "Obscene" profit made on all those Poppies. (Relevance: Something else that you read and completely misunderstood). Made for £9 a piece and sold for £25 each with all the proceeds going to Charity - £15 million in fact so what "obscene" profit? Who made it? where did it go?

Tell us the date Kitchener was forced to resign - another thing you completely misunderstood.

Tell us how with no British troops present and no British artillery in Dublin at the time the British were responsible for starting the fires in Sackville Street.

Tell us how driving at least 150,000 people from their homes in the Irish Free State causing them to flee, often with only what they wore and what they could carry, between 1922 and 1926 could not be considered "ethnic cleansing".

"we got a very biased view of Irish history which we took as gospel. A very Republican view of Irish history, and that was the view I held" - Richardson. She said that she would have joined the IRA in a heartbeat - that the same IRA who believed that the only way to unite Ireland was by force? By coercing fellow Irishmen into their union? Keith A is perfectly correct that is an expression of hatred and it is patently obvious that you have swallowed every anti-British "myth" going hook-line-and-sinker.

Another Irish historian, Ruth Dudley Edwards (Whose long-time crusade has been against the IRA, which has destroyed tens of thousands of lives and made everything worse - I couldn't agree more), draws her students and readers attention to the fact that while in school in Ireland Irish history as taught seemed to stop in 1921 and then mysteriously start up again in 1937. Any explanation for that Jim - the Civil War just didn't happen, the economic policies pushed by de Valera ruined the country and caused thousands to flee abroad and emigrate just to make a living not examined. But there again Dev hated dissenting voices didn't he. So do you to the extent that you have to make stuff up and put words in people's mouths in order for you introduce crap to support your highly biased, bigoted and Anglophobic views.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 02:11 PM

"No I did not.
I stand by it."
Now you're lying about lying
"Not surprising when generations of school children have been brainwashed to believe Britain should be blamed, keeping hate alive."
"You put it in quotes, but I never said it."
How stupid an you get?
The solution is simple.
Do you believe the Irish hate Britons?
If they do, how does that manifest itself?
A failure to answer either of these is proof that you are lying again - you are telling nasty lies about an entire nation and about schoolchildren - that is despicable - even for you (perhaps that last bit wads overstated)
Now answer please
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 01:45 PM

You denied saying it - you lied, now your back defending it.

No I did not.
I stand by it.
I denied the previous, faked quotes you posted.

"Kinealy states that children were fed "nationalist myths" as history."
During the "Fee State" period - I've read her book - you haven't.

It came from this essay, and she makes clear it continued to recent if not present times.
http://www.historyireland.com/18th-19th-century-history/beyond-revisionism-reassessing-the-great-irish-famine/
Richardson wrote of her experience as a child in the seventies, and O'Callaghan also says it contued to recent if not present times.

If the Irish hate the British, how did that manifest itself.

Some Irish must inevitably hate Britain if they believe all the lies fed to them as children.
Professor Richardson did. In her case it was manifested as a desire to join IRA.
There is a wide spectrum of ways in which hate can be manifested, and I am not getting in to it.

I said, " generations of school children have been brainwashed to believe Britain should be blamed, keeping hate alive."

That is substantiated by the historians.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 12:47 PM

"Jim, the brainwashing of Irish schoolkids to keep hate alive is attested to by these Irish historians."
You denied saying it - you lied, now your back defending it.
"Kinealy states that children were fed "nationalist myths" as history."
During the "Fee State" period - I've read her book - you haven't.
I will ask you this every time you make up this nonsense
If the Irish hate the British, how did that manifest itself.
The IRA urrent IRA activity was by Northern Irish under British rule and were the result of Partition and ending British rule, not a hatred of Britain
It is appallingly stupid and dishonest to claim the Irish hated the British if you are unable to describe how that "hatred" shows itself, in fact it is hate-mongering
So go on - describe how the Irish hate Britain.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 11:22 AM

Jim, the brainwashing of Irish schoolkids to keep hate alive is attested to by these Irish historians.

Richardson said, "So we got a very biased view of Irish history which we took as gospel. A very Republican view of Irish history, and that was the view I held."

She said she would have joined IRA in a heartbeat.
That is an expression of hatred.

"I tried to think in the context of other kids, and who didn't have the advantage I had in getting a (university) education and questioning everything I'd been taught. How they hold on to these ideas and end up joining terrorist groups."

Kinealy states that children were fed "nationalist myths" as history.

O'Callaghan states that the children were "indoctrinated" with "anti-British" propaganda. "Indoctrinated" is another word for "brainwashing" Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 11:07 AM

"I have quoted three Irish historians who substantiate my statement"
You said you didn't say it - you lied.
You have cited none who said any such thing - whoever said it would ab a racist.
If you7 believe it, yo must be able to produce examples of manifestations of that hatred - you refuse to do so - you make my point perfectly.
""irrelevant twaddle"."
Yeh - sure it is - sorry you find it "boring" - Keith isn't interested in Irish history either, so there you go.
"industrialised city during the same period in Britain, France, Germany or the USA"
Their researches cover from the 1600s to the mid-1970s - can't get any more comprehensive than that.
Now you really are blowing for tugs - but at least its entertaining.
Don't forget that evidence of hatred Keith - missing it already!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 10:43 AM

As far as the subject of the thread goes your "information" does rather fall into the category of "irrelevant twaddle". Long, rambling, boring and poorly presented script containing very little of importance. History is made up of events that actually happened, not events that you think happened.

By the bye Jim had Jill and Leon Uris turned their gaze on the establishment and growth of any industrialised city during the same period in Britain, France, Germany or the USA it would all have revealed a similar picture.

Now how is the work related to all"those German spies" coming along. Mind you having made up so much shit it must be rather difficult for you to keep track of all the stuff you've invented and who is supposed to have said it.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 10:02 AM

Jim, I said,
"Not surprising when generations of school children have been brainwashed to believe Britain should be blamed, keeping hate alive."

I have quoted three Irish historians who substantiate my statement that Irish schoolchildren have been brainwashed to wrongly blame Britain.

I stand by that quote.

The previous quotes that you attributed to me, and put in quotes, were made up by you, and I reject them.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 09:57 AM

"Good heavens Jim, it would appear that both Keith A and I seem to have been waiting for you to substantiate a hell of a lot more."
Where - you've had plenty of information with links - you have provided none - only unsubstantiated declarations.
See how you get on with that last lot of "irrelevant" information.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 08:41 AM

Waiting for you to substantiate

Good heavens Jim, it would appear that both Keith A and I seem to have been waiting for you to substantiate a hell of a lot more.

Having trouble with that crap of yours about German spies? Not that surprising really is it Jim - you made it up, so you had best substantiate it.

On the persecution of Protestants in Eire just look at the links you have posted.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 08:27 AM

A pretty fair summing-up of the history of Protestant Ulster in text and photographs - for those interested in such things!
Jim Carroll

From 'Ireland, a Terrible Beauty, Jill and Leon Uris, 1976
The Celtic word "Belfast" means "approach to the sand spit." Until 1600 there wasn't much there but a wide spot in the river. An early member of the Chichester family staked claim to it after the "Flight of the Earls" and received a charter for a family borough. Belfast and surrounding Counties Down and Antrim are the true heartland of the Presbyterian settlement.
For the first hundred years the community toddled along, establishing a middling trading and commercial town. In addition to the Presbyterian qualities of piety and hard work, the originals from Scotland were liberal and enlightened. They, too, had come under persecution from many of the Penal Laws, and a great number emigrated to America in the eighteenth-century Scotch-Irish exodus.
Theobald Wolfe Tone found the atmosphere so rich that the United Irishmen was born in Belfast. When the first Catholic church was established at the end of the eighteenth century, an openhearted Presbyterian community greeted it with brotherly love.
Her situation at the geographical center of Presbyterian Down and Antrim, on a natural body of navigable water, caused Belfast to extend her boundaries continually in monotonous red brick clusters.
Nearly all of the early population came in from surrounding farm lands, where communal living and work sharing were traditional. The togetherness of the agrarian society was continued in Belfast. People banded together in sub-communities, giving the town more an appearance of little linked-up villages than that of an urban center.
The open-minded character of the people faded during the Wolfe Tone Uprising of 1798. Belfast itself was reasonably placid, but out on the land the division between Catholic and Protestant had opened and then split into a permanent scar with the formation of the Orange Order.
By 1800, Belfast had entered the Industrial Revolution, a half century late. An enormous textile complex brought with it the vilest slums in the British Isles. Agricultural landlordism found its urban counterpart in the creation of a raw, ugly monstrosity. The Marquess of Donegal became one of the largest rent collectors in the realm, squandering his fortune into bankruptcy through gambling, and letting the ill-conceived housing fall further into squalor.
The stink of Belfast's poor districts flowed in open sewers and erupted from piles of uncollected dunghills; it was inter-mixed with the odors of home breweries, tanneries, and ammoniated urine on walls and gutters. The defilement was locked inside tight little courtyarded dwellings, and air and light were locked out. Families numbering a dozen or more huddled in single-room hovels without water or sanitation. The few public bathhouses could not cope with the crush of filth. Open sores, matted hair, warped growth, and sunken-eyed madness were the dress of the people.
The looms boomed on relentlessly, first cotton, then linen. The more delicate linen work required women and children. The latter were supplied by overcrowded orphanages. Belfast, like Derry, became a city of female labor toiling in unspeakably dingy, unsafe factories.
For Belfast's first two hundred years, there was no significant Catholic population. They drifted in, in the wake of evictions and perennial unemployment, and the trickle became a flood during and after the famine. Like the Presbyterians, they set¬tled in their own small communities around the heartbeat of a church. Neither welcome nor wanted, they came into an established order in which they shared no involvement. Job competition was already fierce, and the massive Catholic influx terrified the Protestant workers like nothing else. Catholic villages linked up in the western part of the city. In other areas Catholics lived in surrounded enclaves such as Ardoyne, New Lodge, and Short Strand. What were once communal settlements became tribal areas of two hostile clans.
Industry exploded for fair with the arrival of the power loom. About the girth of Lough Belfast and in towns to the south, hundreds of looms sprang up along avenues of running water. With the collapse of cotton during the American Civil War, Bel¬fast became the linen capital of the world.
In 1859 the Harland and Wolff shipyard opened to become the very power base of Belfast's industrial might. For the first time thousands of males were put to work . . . but nearly to a man they were Protestant. The Belfast complex multiplied into heavy machinery, armaments, ropemaking, distilling, tobacco, flour, graving docks, and a major port.
Nothing would ever again keep the pall of smoke from inundating Belfast. By 1870, commissions of inquiry expressed deep concern over air and water pollution. This was causing debilitation of workers, particularly in jobs like hackling linen, and a fair part of the work force kept going on alcohol and dope.
Protestant slums and the waterfront were desperate with crime and inhumanity. Catholic slums were the worst cesspools in the British Isles, and neither law nor even clergy cared to visit. They were frequent hosts to onslaughts of cholera and typhoid, with an incidence of TB double that of the rest of Britain. Beggars, fever carts, workhouses, prostitution, killings, all in a haze of alcohol, were workaday. When there was no dog- or cockfight to wager on, mothers threw their sons into the pit to battle themselves bloody for a penny or two.
Outside the ghettos, great blocklike, uninspired Victorian edifices created a contrast of elegance with putridity, grandeur of empire with swill. As buildings for commerce, industry, and government rose in the center, a necklace of manor houses hugged the sea in the world's newest Gold Coast.
The "Golden Age of Riots" entered to the sound of the damnations of fire-breathing evangelists who kept the Protestant poor on knife's edge. Mammoth open-air meetings by the Rev. Messrs. Drew, Cooke, Hanna, and their ilk burst into savage sectarian rioting in 1813, 1832, 1835, 1852, 1864, 1872, 1880, 1884, 1886, and 1898. Commissions of inquiry just couldn't figure out what was the matter. Post-World War I riots against Catholics raged in the early 1920s and into the depression years. This "Lord's work" has been valiantly carried on by the Ian Paisleys with unrelenting fury, directly up to the recent holocaust.
It has always been the poor harangued to fight the poor, the tribal units of Protestants in Sandy Row, Shankill, and East Belfast pitted against Catholic tribes in the Falls and Andersontown.
When Belfast was granted city status in 1888 the structure of rule was firmly implanted. The gentry had gained control of the Unionist Party with the interlocked power of the Orange Order and a segment of rabble-rousing clergy. Police and government apparatus were solidly in their hands. Belfast was divided into fifteen wards, two of them going to the Catholics with twenty- five per cent of the population.
By the twentieth century Belfast was a major spoke in the British scheme of things, a manufacturing giant with a windfall for the elite and prosperity for many. For the poor, Protestant loyalty was rewarded by jobs. It was Ulsterism at its grossest level, a society existing by committing economic homicide on the native. The good life here and all things from it were tied to the benefits of being a British city, and any talk of Irish rule or a split from the Motherland brought a reaction of frenzy.
This skillful separation of the working classes has always been the principal canon of Ulsterism. The deplorable housing continues on. Outdoor privies abound. Progress for the workingman is replaced by threats of unemployment. Liberal thought is ** drenched under Orange nonsense and holy-rolling muckraking.
In the end the Protestant worker has been bilked. He, too, has been kept on the edge of squalor, and his diet of medieval meanderings is all he has to hang on to. He continues to live a breath away from a riot.
Belfast was put into business for a certain purpose, and she operated in a certain manner. She is the mongoloid child born out of British imperialism, the water and oil that would never mix, and a blight on the human spirit.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 07:47 AM

"Just struggling to get Keith to admit his.
Waiting for you to substantiate your Anti- Protestantism terrorism, or "German Spies" claim " or you persistent denials of documented facts, or your accusations of "bigotry" or your saying something one minute and denying you said it the next..... or...... should I go on?
I love the way both of you deny holding opinions then go on to prove that you still do "Irish Independence" being a case in point.
You have proved nothing, you have substantiated nothing, you have arrogantly only ever provided your own opinions dressed up as fackts totally without backup
"Carroll"
Whoops your 'insecurity slip is showing again miss' Jim's the name and bigoted troll-slaying is the game
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 06:35 AM

This whole thread has been filled with lies from you and from Teribus

Now the only problem with that statement Carroll is that so far you have been unable to provide one single example of any such lies have you?

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 06:15 AM

"You stated as quotes things I never said and never would say."
I've just put it up with a link twice - are you really claiming it is a fake?
I ask again, where is there any evidence that the Irish have ever hated the Britsih - as per the "faked" quote I put up
Full posting (plus my typo):
"Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 07:13 AM
"YOU HAVE HAD NOT ONE IOTO OF SUPPORT"
Not surprising when generations of school children have been brainwashed to believe Britain should be blamed, keeping hate alive.
Irish schools at least since 1922 and NY State schools since 1996 by decree.

Massachusetts?"
"Again you reveal yourself as a sectarian bigot."
You have had masses of information as to exactly sectarian and violent and unpatriotic and armed the Unionists are and of their behaviour when they took power in the six counties - you have challenged none of that
What is "bigoted" about hating that sort of behaviour?
"You've lost me where exactly have I ever used such a phrase? -
It wasn't in quotes - you both have claimed that the (armed and potentially invasive) Unionists were intimidated by the Eater Rising - as I said 'delicate little flowers'
"Therefore guilty under the provisions of the Treason Act "
He was charged and hanged for murder - that was altered to "treason by Asquith in parliament - not by a court.
"Try this -
Protestant Decline in the Republic of Ireland"
I did – it shows volunrtary population decline, not terrorist persecution.
The rest continues to be unlinked and long dealt-with claims you have made and failed to substantiate.
Think we're finished here - don't you - you've humiliated yourself enough as far as I'm concerned.
"In case you feel you need it - too late, too late"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 06:07 AM

"You stated as quotes things I never said and never would say."
I've just put it up with a link twice - are you really claiming it is a fake?
I ask again, where is there any evidence that the Irish have ever hated the Britsih - as per the "faked" quote I put up
Full posting (plus my typo):
"Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 07:13 AM
"YOU HAVE HAD NOT ONE IOTO OF SUPPORT"
Not surprising when generations of school children have been brainwashed to believe Britain should be blamed, keeping hate alive.
Irish schools at least since 1922 and NY State schools since 1996 by decree.

Massachusetts?"
"Again you reveal yourself as a sectarian bigot."
You have had masses of information as to exactly sectarian and violent and unpatriotic and armed the Unionists are and of their behaviour when they took power in the six counties - you have challenged none of that
What is "bigoted" about hating that sort of behaviour?
"You've lost me where exactly have I ever used such a phrase? - "More Jim Carroll "Made-Up-Shit" - if not please cut-n-paste the post of mine where I state that."
"Amazing how I forgot that classic example of Jim Carroll "Made-Up-Shit","
"his cock-eyed Made-Up-Shit version of history "
"Want a couple of examples of this Jim Carroll "made-up-shit"?"
"yet another baseless accusation - more Jim Carroll "made-up-shit")"
" written and attributed to me by Jim Carroll - invented comment - Made-up-shit"
More where that came from.
"Try this -
Protestant Decline in the Republic of Ireland"
I did – it shows population decline, not terrorist persecution.
The rest continues to be unlinked and long dealt-with claims you have made and failed to substantiate.
Think we're finished here - don't you - you've humiliated yourself enough as far as I'm concerned.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 05:23 AM

You stated as quotes things I never said and never would say.
That is lying, and you should expect to be called out for it.
I stand by what I actually said, and have substantiated it with statements from three Irish historians.

What else are the Unionists

Again you reveal yourself as a sectarian bigot.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 05:12 AM

You obviously aren't going to substantiate your "cross-border raids" or your "oppression of Catholics in the Republic, or your "the rebels were all German spies" or "no artillery" - it wos the looters wot started all the fires" or "the poor, offended little flowers of Loyalists" or "the Home Rule Bill was a done deal", or "Tom Kent was guilty of murder, or was it treason".... or anything else you have claimed during this epic.

1: So no cross border raids took place? Try googling 1956 to 1962 IRA Border Campaign and see what you get. Try YouTube "1956 to 1962 IRA Border Campaign Documentary" and see what you get. A great deal of coverage, a 47 minute long Documentary, with many interviews almost all but one from IRA men who participated. Compare their first interviews with what those same men say at the end, particularly their opinions of what the PIRA did during the "Troubles" - very revealing.

If you count the War of Independence there have been five IRA campaigns against the North - not one single one has succeeded or moved the Republicans any nearer their goal.

From that documentary the IRA's stated position there is no alternative to armed struggle and that Ireland must be united by force. If that is what you believe Carroll then come straight out and say that. I on the other hand believe in the right of self-determination for all.

2: Oppression of Catholics in the Republic?? I think I claimed "Oppression of Protestants" Jim.

Try this -
Protestant Decline in the Republic of Ireland

3: "your "the rebels were all German spies"

Care to cut-n-paste the post of mine where I state that? I can confidently predict for anyone else reading this post that he won't, basically because he can't - no such post exists - more Jim Carroll "Made-Up-Shit".

4: The researchers from RTE and Boston College in the Chronology of the Easter Rising found evidence of looting starting in Sackville Street around 15:00hrs on the afternoon of the 24th April 1916, with looting ongoing fires started around 20:30hrs on the evening of the 24th April 1916. Present in Sackville Street during this time were the Irish Volunteers and civilian looters, during the day the Irish Volunteers had fired on and driven away the Dublin Metropolitan Police Force and scouting patrols of British Cavalry. So out of the four groups identified above - Irish Volunteers; Civilian Looters; DMP; British Army - which two groups had the opportunity to start those fires on the evening of the 24th April 1916 - you don't actually have to be Sherlock Holmes to work it out.

British troops and Artillery did not start arriving in any significant numbers until the next day. There was no artillery in Dublin on the 24th April 1916 so it could hardly have been responsible for starting the fires. It arrived from Athlone sometime during the morning of the 25th April and opened fire on barricades in direct line of sight at 15:00hrs on the afternoon of the 25th April 1916.

Their first recording of any artillery fire being directed at Sackville Street occurs almost 40 hours after the fires were started. 40 hours in which no-one made any attempt to put those fires out.

Now I can see no reason why RTE of Boston College researchers should lie about any of this and their accounts check out with those of others.

5: ""the poor, offended little flowers of Loyalists"

You've lost me where exactly have I ever used such a phrase? - More Jim Carroll "Made-Up-Shit" - if not please cut-n-paste the post of mine where I state that.

6: Home Rule was a done deal in 1914. Pity your Republicans, or more correctly your magnificent seven in secret managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory (If an independent united Ireland was the objective)

7: Under Martial Law at the time Thomas Kent was charged with firing upon Police Officers and Soldiers and killing one of them William Rowe. Therefore guilty under the provisions of the Treason Act 1351. Under Martial Law and under Military Law you are automatically charged with what is seen to be the more serious offence, as in military law you can reduce charges once made but you cannot increase them.

Now then Jim do you want to make up and fabricate any other comments that you want to take me to task over?

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 04:57 AM

"I made no statement about hating the British."
What the **** is this then - a "fake"
"Not surprising when generations of school children have been brainwashed to believe Britain should be blamed, keeping hate alive."
"You put it in quotes, but I never said it."
I've just pasted it directly and exactly from the the "Potato Bligh thread and given you a ling to it - stop lying.
This whole thread has been filled with lies from you and from Teribus and now you are lying about yor own words put in front of you.
"What about "the bowler-hatted, besashed thugs"
What else are the Unionists who have been running Ireland for nearly a century - traffic wardens?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 04:38 AM

I made no statement about hating the British.

"Irish kids wre brainwashed to hate us British"

You put it in quotes, but I never said it.
A faked quote.

"hate the British" is not a phrase I have ever used.
You put it in quotes, but I never said it.
A faked quote.

The only people I have ever hated are the politicians

What about "the bowler-ghatted, besashed thugs fwose main role has been to incite hatred."

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 02:36 AM

"Another faked quote then Jim. I never said anything like that.
Will you please stop telling lies - this is exactly wat you said.
Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM Date: 12 Mar 14 - 07:13 AM
"Not surprising when generations of school children have been brainwashed to believe Britain should be blamed, keeping hate alive."
I don't excpect you to acknowledge your dishonesty, let alone apologies for accusing me of faking it - you don't do that sort of thing.
Your whole argument here has been based on dishonesty such as this and on total ignorance and hatred - that goes for both of you.

"Seems as though you, Jim Carroll are the only person slinging allegations about regarding hatred."
Now you're just reduced to stupid name-calling.
You obviously aren't going to substantiate your "cross-border raids" or your "oppression of Catholics in the Republic, or your "the rebels were all German spies" or "no artillery" - it wos the looters wot started all the fires" or "the poor, offended little flowers of Loyalists" or "the Home Rule Bill was a done deal", or "Tom Kent was guilty of murder, or was it treason".... or anything else you have claimed during this epic.
I don't think I have ever seen an argument end so conclusively - your case is a shambles and your denials turned out to be a pack of lies.
If you had any self-respect you would apologise - to the people on this forum who have taken a genuine interest in this subject and to the Irish people who you have smeared and attacked with your dishonest and innuendo.
The only people I have ever hated are the politicians who have caused situations such as those guilty of what has happened to Ireland.
I'll happily apologise when you qualify your accusations with a modicum of proof - as you so aptly put it, "chance would be a fine thing".
Jusr waiting to come up with his examples of the Irish hating the British - but I won't hold my breath.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 03:46 PM

Another faked quote then Jim.
I never said anything like that.

You do it because you have no answer to what we really say.

Richardson is entitled to her opinion,

She was not expressing an opinion.
She was relating her own experience.
Her school fed her a corrupted, false version of Irish history that made her want to join the IRA.
Joining the IRA is an expression of hatred towards Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 09:34 AM

Seems as though you, Jim Carroll are the only person slinging allegations about regarding hatred.

Ooooh substantiate and provide back-up or else apologise for your accusations - well I never, that would be a first on this forum and if I get the "pecking order" thing right plus what you lot on the left automatically get a free pass on due to the fact that you never substantiate any baseless accusation you throw out. Then chance would be a fine thing.

When it comes to making baseless accusations you Carroll are the worst offender on this forum.

As for myth and propaganda keeping hatred alive - it has worked with you hasn't it Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 08:46 AM

Your exact words.
"Date: 12 Mar 14 - 07:13 AM
Not surprising when generations of school children have been brainwashed to believe Britain should be blamed, keeping hate alive."
One more time - how has that hatred manifested itself?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 08:37 AM

""hate the British" is not a phrase I have used in this discussion.
"Your opening statement from the Irish famine threads was that "Irish kids wre brainwashed to hate us British"
How has that hate manifested itself?
Richardson is entitled to her opinion, just as she is about allowing extremists to strut their stuff in British education.
If you are going to agree with what you said about Irish education, you need to exlain what you mean not what how interpret what she said.
Now once again How has the Irish hatred of the British, which is exactly what you said, manifested itself.
Qualify it or withdraw it and apologise.
My family were educated under the Irish education system - how dare people like you smear them with your racism
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 07:46 AM

"hate the British" is not a phrase I have used in this discussion.

There is no suggestion in Prof Richardson's article that she was taught to "hate the British" - if so, where is it?

She said, "So we got a very biased view of Irish history which we took as gospel. A very Republican view of Irish history, and that was the view I held."

She said she would have joined IRA in a heartbeat.

"I tried to think in the context of other kids, and who didn't have the advantage I had in getting a (university) education and questioning everything I'd been taught. How they hold on to these ideas and end up joining terrorist groups."

If Kineally ever claimed Irish children were brought up to "hate the British" - where did she say so?

Kinealy states that children were fed "nationalist myths" as history.


O'Callaghan states that the children were "indoctrinated" with "anti-British" propaganda. "Indoctrinated" is another word for "brainwashing" Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 07:43 AM

Your " half-arsed assaults from South of the border" are simple made-up lies with no documented evidence - unless, of course, like the rest of your simple made-up lies, you would like to provide evidence for them - no - thought not?
I'll just add them to the pile for future reference
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 07:16 AM

"It is not my suggestion Jim."
Yest it is - entirely
There is no suggestion in Prof Richardson's article that she was taught to "hate the British" - if so, where is it?
If Kineally ever claimed Irish children were brought up to "hate the British" - where did she say so?
Simple question
If the Irish "hate the British" because of their education, how did that hatred manifest itself.
Was there a lifelong propaganda campaign in the Irish press against Britain - if there was, can you give us examples of it?
Were the Irish communities in Britain no-go areas for British people - if not, why not?
Was the Irish press in Britain constantly attacking British people - if it was, can you produce examples of it.
The only unrest, violence, protest regarding Ireland over the last century has been that of FROM BRITISH CITIZENS LIVING IN THE BRITISH RULED SIX COUNTIES WHO HAVE BEEN EDUCATED UNDER A BRITISH EDUCATION SYSTEM - how do you work that one out?
If the Irish hate Britain, how does that hatred manifest itself - letter bombs, suicide bombers, hate mail, stones through British windows, anti-British demonstrations, Irish children terrorising British kids, British holidaymakers being treated with hostility - what form does that hatred take?
ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS OR APOLOGISE FOR YOUR ACCUSATIONS
I can give you hundreds of examples of the British being brainwashed to hate the Irish, from Punch Magazine, Sir Charles Trevelyan, Charles Kingsley and their like, through to Jim Davidson, Bernard Manning - and not least of all - you pair.
Having failed miserably to denigrate Easter Week and Ireland's fight for independence, you have no
w directed your spray of vitriol on the Irish people as a whole.
I think you've made all my points in the last half hour far better than I could have ever done in years.
You have my eternal gratitude.
And thanks to your friend for confirming that with his latest offering (unlinked as usual)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 06:50 AM

Did you not suggest that Ireland's history suggested that they had no grounds for claiming to be one nation?

Nope I clearly stated what Ireland's history was - they were never a nation and had no concept of what nationhood meant until after the Normans arrived. In 1914 to 1922 one political faction in Ireland (the smallest and least representative of them all in 1914) had no more right to coerce any other group than the British had. In 1921 Ireland as a united country was given its independence, one rather significant minority entirely off their own volition decided to remain within the UK - Self-determination, where and when have I argued against it? Or is this just more Jim Carroll "Made-Up-Shit"?

Did you not suggest that the only reason they did claim independence in the first place was because they were conned into doing so by the French and Spanish?

Nope. What I stated was that in the past dissident elements in Ireland were prompted into action, normally in the form of armed rebellion by promises of support from nations at war with either England or Great Britain. Those dissident elements were conned into believing those promises which never seemed to amount to much. Examples given were:

The Spanish during the Anglo-Spanish War during the reign of Elizabeth the First and James the First.

The French during the French Revolutionary Wars and the Napoleonic War

The Germans during the First World War, who to give them their due although asked to supply troops they declined (Primarily as they could not break the British Naval Blockade in sufficient force).

Have you not argued for a partitioned Ireland from the beginning of this debate?

Nope. I have attempted to point out to you that best efforts were made to stave off permanent partition, you have steadfastly insisted that permanent partition was offered to the Unionists by the British Government, yet you cannot come up with one single government document that supports that contention. You cannot produce one such document as none exists - in any discussion or document only temporary partition for a time limited period is mentioned. The only reason permanent partition came into being was because of the 1916 Rising and the 1919-1921 War of Independence.

Have you not argued that it is OK that six counties of (IRELAND - THAT IS WHAT IT IS - ONE IDENTIFIABLE COUNTRY) should remain under British rule under a regime that even divided those six counties into two warring groups, giving one group rights and privileges by law and depriving the other group of those rights and privileges, leading to permanent division, conflict and bloodshed?

I believe that it was OK for the duly constituted Parliament of Northern Ireland to exercise its right of self-determination under the terms of the Anglo-Irish Treaty and secede from The Irish Free State in 1922. For your information the Parliament of Northern Ireland did not vote to remain UNDER British rule - They opted to remain as an autonomous self-governing part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

As to the division, conflict and bloodshed - If you look back down through the decades and remove the instances where the source of the trouble came from half-arsed assaults from South of the border how much division, conflict and bloodshed would there have been?

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 06:25 AM

It is not my suggestion Jim.
It is the view of Irish historians Kineally, O'Callaghan and Richardson, all of whom I have quoted stating just that.

I suppose you agree with Prof Richardson's views on teaching extremism too - or not?

She has never advocated "teaching extremism" Jim.
You just made that up.

"Asked if that meant groups like Cage should be welcomed on campus, she said: "Provided that they can be countered, I think that we should let them be heard. In that way we model to our students how you counter ideas you find objectionable."

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 06:25 AM

It is not my suggestion Jim.
It is the view of Irish historians Kineally, O'Callaghan and Richardson, all of whom I have quoted stating just that.

I suppose you agree with Prof Richardson's views on teaching extremism too - or not?

She has never advocated "teaching extremism" Jim.
You just made that up.

"Asked if that meant groups like Cage should be welcomed on campus, she said: "Provided that they can be countered, I think that we should let them be heard. In that way we model to our students how you counter ideas you find objectionable."

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 06:11 AM

"More evidence of the recent indoctrination of children in the Irish school system."
Go away with your racist suggestion that Irish children were brainwashed Keith - it only confirms your hatred of the Irish people and it certainly has no place on a thread on The Easter Rising
We really do get your message "I Hate Ireland", we've got it from the beginning.
I suppose you agree with Prof Richardson's views on teaching extremism too - or not?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/12102509/Extremist-groups-must-be-allowed-to-preach-on-British-campuses-new-Oxford-head-says.html
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 05:50 AM

More evidence of the recent indoctrination of children in the Irish school system.
Professor Louise Ricrdson on BBC R4 Desert Island Discs.
Fifteen minutes and 40 seconds in,

"I would say at school we assembled every day and said our prayers beneath a crucifix and then a photograph of the seven men who had been executed for signing the Proclamation of Independence in 1916.

So we got a very biased view of Irish history which we took as gospel. A very Republican view of Irish history, and that was the view I held."

She said she would have joined IRA in a heartbeat.

"I tried to think in the context of other kids, and who didn't have the advantage I had in getting a (university) education and questioning everything I'd been taught. How they hold on to these ideas and end up joining terrorist groups."

She was born in Ireland, is one of seven children and has gone on to have an international career as an academic with a particular expertise in terrorism. She has been consulted by many politicians for her knowledge and insight. After many years as a Harvard Professor, she came to Britain to be the first female Vice-Chancellor of St. Andrews University.
Since January 2016, she has been the Vice-Chancellor of Oxford University and is the first woman to hold the post.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07cmmk8#play