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BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part II
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part II From: GUEST,leveller Date: 03 May 02 - 07:04 PM BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part II From: Little Hawk Date: 03 May 02 - 04:56 PM LOL! A better response than I had anticipated, troll. There actually are 2 budgies here. Their primary sins are spilling seeds all over the place, and bombing indiscriminately whenever they are out of the cage, but they are still mere amateurs at spreading real terror. My mother's dog Arnot (...pronounced Arr-no) is no amateur. He sneers in everyone's general direction, as he lifts his leg indiscreetly against another piece of furniture. (Arf! Arf!) (Shut up! You moronic little creature!) (Grrrrr... Arf! Arf!) - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part II From: Troll Date: 03 May 02 - 03:58 PM AH HA!!!!Gottcha! You are biased against animals with legs that are shorter than the "norm." I notice that you said NOTHING about that most treacherous of "PETS", the Budgie. NO!! You save your smug putdowns for the innocent Wiener Dog, the animated sausage that is the butt of so much so-called "humor". Well, NOW the world knows you for what you really are; defamers of the oddly-shaped, the long, the lowly. Anti-Dachshundists. I sneer in your general direction. troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part II From: CarolC Date: 03 May 02 - 12:19 PM Never trust a dachshund. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part II From: Little Hawk Date: 03 May 02 - 12:00 PM Look, people, before you wear yourselves out totally (not to mention wearing out the subject matter)...and before you ruin some formerly good friendships in the process... Let me suggest to you that we could all unite on this terrorism issue by focusing on the worst terrorist of all... My mother's miniature dachshund. I quote from my own previous post on the "bigotry" thread: "I try to love everyone, but my mother's dog makes it quite difficult. He is a seditious, treacherous, greedy, and arrogant little monster. He destroys property and steals food. He struts around like Mussolini. He sucks up to you when the food is in your hand, and then treats you with hostility and contempt the moment it's in his mouth. He pees on fur hats and other valuable personal items. He is vile, smelly, lascivious, and totally untrustworthy." Further to this, my mother's dachshund is clearly neither a muslim nor a jew, but either an atheistic or an autotheistic gentile! "Autotheistic" meaning...he thinks he IS God. This is a common threat that could serve to unite us all, so let's give it serious consideration. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part II From: CarolC Date: 03 May 02 - 10:12 AM YES! thank you, thank you very much |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part II From: GUEST,Stats-R-Us Date: 03 May 02 - 10:08 AM This thread is way too long, and it's settled down into a style of discussion that doesn't do much good. I think that it might be better to follow the approach attempted in the PEACE in the Middle East thread. So I feel uneasy at posting to this and refreshing it again in the process. Since making that statement yesterday, McGrath of Harlow has refreshed this thread three more times. Of course, he holds no candle to CarolC who is personally responsible for 32 of the 118 previous posts to this thread, including several sets of up to six multiple posts in a row. Troll, CarolC's debating opponent clocks in at a much more modest 10 posts. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part II From: CarolC Date: 03 May 02 - 09:44 AM Here are some sites that offer death statistics on both Israelis and Palestinians for different time periods and locations. This is a piece on how the numbers get slanted in the US media Media watch |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part II From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 03 May 02 - 08:24 AM I'd have thought that the purpose of the quote about the trees is a way of pointing out that, in this respect, the Israeli forces have done something that even Deuteronomy didn't advocate. I'd assume that anyone familiar with the history/mythology of the conquest of the Holy Land would have been aware of the genocide described in this part of Deuteronomy. I'd also assume that the website is directed primarily at people who could be expected to be familiar with such things.
The quote is surely an expression of a kind of bitter humour, rather than a distortion. It reminds readers of that aspect of history, but without pushing it to the centre of the stage. Using the full quote in that context would merely have been inviting people to argue about what happened thousands of years ago rather than what is happening today. (And it's having that effect here.)
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part II From: CarolC Date: 03 May 02 - 07:43 AM I stand corrected Wolfgang, and I apologise. Prior to seeing that post in your link, I have only seen posts from you that support one side of the issue, and that challenge only the other side.
I would suggest that you not dismiss the numbers in the Jews for Peace in Palestine and Israel site too quickly, though. I have seen the same numbers in several different places. And the sources for the numbers are credible ones. They list the sources in the site. I think the inclusion of that bible passage was really more for the poetic effect, in order to touch people's hearts, than it was to prove any sort of point. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part II From: Wolfgang Date: 03 May 02 - 07:23 AM it would be nice if you used the same sort of critical eye when you read the propaganda coming out of the pro-Sharon camp Carol, click here and you'll see that the implication of your offensive statement is factually wrong. I hate one-sided propaganda and I see too much of it cited or linked to in these threads. I have neither time nor (in some cases) the ability to check all of the background of the sources. So I have to rely on other means to make up my mind how much I trust a source. (1) I look at how selective they are, (2) whether easily checkable details are correct and (3) whether their information is internally consistent. The site I have singled out for critique in my last post has failed on all three counts. The information is completely one-sided (that's a bias from me, I am more prone to trust sites that do not only paint black or paint white), an easily checkable statement of fact (the Bible citation) turns out to be a gross falsification, and their numbers lack internal consistency (easy to spot, I'll leave that as an exercise for the readers). That's why I don't trust the rest of their information too much. I could be wrong, but they have failed to convince me by their way of presentation that I should take them serious. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part II From: CarolC Date: 03 May 02 - 12:10 AM Wolfgang, if you are using one bible passage that they used, not even as evidence of anything, as an indication of whether or not their numbers are correct, I think it is you who is showning bias. Did you not even check to see where they got their numbers from?
And it would be nice if you used the same sort of critical eye when you read the propaganda coming out of the pro-Sharon camp. Their inconsistencies are just as glaring. More so, in my opinion.
You live in a country that has culpability for what happened to the Jews in WWII. How you choose to live with that culpability is up to you. However, I live in a country that has culpability for whatever happens to the Palestinians. I choose to make sure that I don't help my country in its gravest errors. If history shows that the things the people in any of the links I've provided is true, you will have to live with the fact that you didn't do anything at all to try to prevent or stop it. And you might even have to live with the possibility that you helped them do it with your silence and unwillingness to believe it could happen. Isn't that what the people in your country did when terrible things were happening to the Jews?
Cast your mind back just a little. How did the Nazis manage to get people to be willing to let those atrocities happen? The way they did it was to dehumanize and demonize the Jews. Take a look at the language people are using about the Palestinians. These kinds of things could just as easily have been said about Jews in Nazi Germany. Denying someone's humanity is the thing that makes it possible to kill and commit other terrible things without feeling guilt. And scapegoating and making the victims responsible for the crimes being committed against them is also a method used by the Nazis. I would suggest, as you read and listen and watch, that you be on the lookout for any words or practices that would serve the purpose of dehumanizing and demonizing the Palestinians. That should give you a better idea of what's going on.
This is the quote from that site that I prefer to focus on...
Let us not be the ones to say, "We saw and we did nothing" Would that more people in your country had done the same during WWII. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part II From: Troll Date: 02 May 02 - 09:52 PM Kevin, thanks for checking. I've tried to find the place, site or whatever where I saw that and I have had no luck either. I'll keep looking but it will probably be stale by the time I find it. I'll PM you when, and if, I do find it. The article by Eduardo Cohen was interesting. Now if we could get a similar article from the Arab world detailing their excesses, we might be able to cut through the fog and make some progress. troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part II From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 02 May 02 - 08:51 PM Here's the Time Magazine archive search site - I put "Mohammed al-Durrah" in the archive search with as many different spellings as I could imagine, and nothing turned up. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part II From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 02 May 02 - 03:46 PM From the drawings I saw in the press it didn't seem in any way unlikely that the bullets that killed Mohammed and the ambulance driver trying to get to him and his wounded father could have come from Israeli soldiers.
I had a hunt around, looking for that Time article - I put Mohammed al-Durrah in a search engine together with Time Magazine, but it didn't cme up.(That doesn't mean I'm denying its existence or anything, for what it's worth.)
Still that combination came up with some interesting stuff, including this article by an American journalist called Eduardo Cohen. Worth reading. Here is a quote: "Because of the major role that the United States plays in life and death issues in the Middle East, American editors and reporters have a special responsibility to constantly examine the fairness of their reporting and how critically they examine information they present to the American people. And they need to examine the possibility of their own racism and begin treating Palestinians and other Arabs as equal citizens whose lives carry just as much value as Jewish Israeli lives." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part II From: Troll Date: 02 May 02 - 02:44 PM Kevin, I Think that it was in Time magazine but I'm not sure. That is why I added the disclaimer. I hoped that someone else would remember the article too. Looking at the pictures and at the drawing, I find it hard to understand how Mohammed could have been shot in the stomach, huddled against the wall as he was behind a concrete barrel that appears to be 2 1/2 to 3 feet in diameter. I'm sure that better minds than mine have studied this but it still puzzles me. BTW, I couldn't remember Mohammad al-Durrahs' name. That's why I didn't give it. "And you think that THAT is an accusation of Anti-Semitism? Sheeesh!!
Two or three other people seemed to think so too." troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part II From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 02 May 02 - 01:46 PM This thread is way too long, and it's settled down into a style of discussion that doesn't do much good. I think that it might be better to follow the approach attempted in the PEACE in the Middle East thread.
So I feel uneasy at posting to this and refreshing it again in the process. HOWEVER there was a post by Troll that I felt uneasy with, about the shooting of 12 year old Mohammed al-Durrah (he did have a name):
"There was an article in one of the news mags and also on line showing an after-the-fact mock-up of the positions of the child and his father, the IDF and whoever else was shooting. The fields of fire and the angles were wrong for the child to have been killed by the IDF. I also read - but can't recall where because it's been a while- that a ballistic test on the bullet that killed the child was from an AK47, a weapon that is not used by the IDF. Since I cannot provide documentation, I don't expect you to believe it but..."
It'd be great to believe that things that look liked atrocities were something else. But it needs more than rumours. After all, if you look around you can find websites and book that deny that the Holocaust took place. And saying there wasn't any moon landing. Here is a report from the Guardian on the killing of little Mohammed in his father's arms. And from the same website, here is what Suzanne Goldenberg had to write about it.
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part II From: GUEST,Wolfgang Date: 02 May 02 - 12:27 PM "Even if you are at war with a city… you must not destroy its trees." (Deut 20: 19-20) This citation from the 'Jews for Peace in Palestine and Israel' website makes me grin. That's a perfect example for selective citation. The context is this:
Deut 20: 13-18 And then comes the advice not to cut down the trees that may be useful for the attacker by supplying food but only the others for the bulwarks. If this citation is any indication for their care I wouldn't trust their numbers too much. I'd love to find in this conflict a website as useful and unbiased as CAIN is for the Northern Ireland conflict. The above website is not even internally consistent. Wolfgang
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part II From: CarolC Date: 02 May 02 - 11:52 AM Here's some more on Barak's generous offer and the Camp David and Taba talks... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part II From: CarolC Date: 02 May 02 - 05:44 AM The contents of that last link are entirely consistent with what my ex-marine aquaintance told me about how the Israeli military operates. He worked with the Israeli military and police forces as a consultant during the Gulf War. As I mentioned in another post somewhere, my aquaintance admired these methods (I believe he's the reincarnation of General Patton). But you should note that they do involve specifically targeting civilians, which is what all the hubub is all about with Janine and elsewhere anyway. Specifically targeting civilians is a war crime. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part II From: CarolC Date: 02 May 02 - 05:34 AM Here's another perspective on your question from the Gush-Shalom site... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part II From: CarolC Date: 02 May 02 - 05:30 AM I messed up the link. If you click the words Gush-Shalom separately from "and here's the", you'll get to the second link I was trying to post. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part II From: CarolC Date: 02 May 02 - 05:27 AM And you think that THATis an accusation of Anti-Semitism? Sheeesh!!
Two or three other people seemed to think so too.
You need to check the "Baraks Generous Offer" clicky. It simply goes to a map with no document.
The Camp David link seems to leave the "generous offer" idea up in the air. It would seem that there is plenty of blame to go around since no one trusted the other enough to look at things at face value. The finale seems to be that Barak didn't make an offer and Arafat turned it down and vice versa, and that Clinton didn't acquit himself too well either.
And that was my point. No one person or nation was responsible for the failure of the Camp David accords. Not even Arafat. It was what an ex-marine aquaintance of mine would call a "cluster-f*ck".
The Gush-Shalom site has some perspectives on this. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part II From: CarolC Date: 02 May 02 - 04:58 AM This is what I found in your link. I'm not sure what it has to do with how the Palestinians feel about their children...
Apr. 30, 2002
Two Israeli Jews arrested for planning anti-Arab attack
Jerusalem police have arrested two Israeli Jews on suspicion that they were planning to attack Arabs in east Jerusalem.
The two suspects, who were apprehended late Sunday night, were remanded yesterday afternoon in the Jerusalem District Court during a closed door session.
The court accepted the position of the Shin Bet, Israel's security services, preventing the two suspects from meeting with a lawyer for the time being.
No further information may be published at present regarding the case, pending court order. This looks more like Jews hating Arabs to me.
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part II From: Troll Date: 02 May 02 - 12:55 AM And you think that THATis an accusation of Anti-Semitism? Sheeesh!! Welcome to the world of the True Believer. You need to check the "Baraks Generous Offer" clicky. It simply goes to a map with no document. The Camp David link seems to leave the "generous offer" idea up in the air. It would seem that there is plenty of blame to go around since no one trusted the other enough to look at things at face value. The finale seems to be that Barak didn't make an offer and Arafat turned it down and vice versa, and that Clinton didn't acquit himself too well either. Harkening back to the statement that there will be no peace until the Palestinians love their children more that they hate the Jews, This is sick. You ask,"Israel agreed to the Oslo agreement, and it was Israel who reneged on it. Why won't Israel live up to it's agreements?" I don't know. Do you? troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part II From: CarolC Date: 02 May 02 - 12:12 AM I wasn't accusing ANYONE of Anti-Semitism and I'll DEFY you to show me the sentence where I did
It sure looks like that's what you were suggesting with this post...
You were already acting as a PR agent for the Palestinians when you started quoting some of the people you mentioned, Yossi Bielin in particular. In fact, I seem to recall a post wherein you said that you saw him on TV and that, "he's a cutie." Although, in all fairness, I know that you wouldn't support Arafat because of his good looks. It is also indicative of prior bias to note that the "extraordinary Israelis" that you are attracted to are all from one end of the political spectrum. You don't seem to have any affinity for those who think that Sharon hasn't gone far enough and that all the Arabs should be expelled from "the river to the sea." Most Israelis do not agree with that stance but neither are they in favor of appeasment. What a shame that you seem to feel that the ideas of ordinary Israelis are unworthy of your consideration: that only those ideas that parallel your own are valid. I'm quite sure that Bielin and Co. didn't have to do much shaping to solidify your stance.
Israel agreed to the Oslo agreement, and it was Israel who reneged on it. Why won't Israel live up to it's agreements?
We have a skeleton, we didn't complete the house. The Oslo agreement has had a rather short occasion to implement itself, and that was between 1993 and 1996. The Oslo agreement was stopped in 1996 when the government in Israel was changed and Mr. Netanyahu became the Prime Minister. I think that the foundations and the structure of Oslo are still the best ones available. And once we shall have an opportunity, we shall complete the building that may withstand the winds of the outside world, and the skepticism of the people.
--Shimon Peres
This site should help you understand why the "generous offer" by Barak was not so generous...
And according to some of the people who were a part of the Camp David peace process, the failure of that process was not the fault of any one person or nation...
And according to Yitzhak Rabin, Arafat and the PLO were willing to work with him in stopping terrorism. (This was during the time when the Palestinians still had hope because they thought the Oslo agreement would be implemented)...
"In the last two years, not one Israeli has been killed by PLO terrorism," Rabin said. The real threat, he said, does not come from Israel's old adversaries - he pointedly included Syrian President Hafez al-Assad in the faded threat category - but from "the ugly wave of" Iranian-supported Islamic fundamentalism.
And this from the Washington Post...
Though Arafat in the weeks before the summit had been looking for the Israelis to carry out their interim agreements before taking up a permanent settlement, he had agreed to go to Camp David on several conditions. One was that he would not be blamed for the possible failure of what he believed was a premature summit. Malley and Agha say Clinton volunteered that the United States would remain neutral in the case of a failure.
Yet when the talks collapsed, Clinton put top priority on helping Barak, whose considerable concessions had undercut his political standing at home. BTW If your sons father was Jewish and you are not, he is not considered Jewish. Only the child of a Jewish mother is considered Jewish. Unless, of course, he converts. My son's father isn't Jewish, but we're pretty sure he has some Jewish ancestry (my ex-husband's father's father). Did the Nazis abide by the mother rule when they were rounding up Jews? And how much Jewish ancestry was enough to get people killed? I'm not too worried about it, but the thought has crossed my mind more than once. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part II From: Troll Date: 01 May 02 - 10:44 PM I wasn't accusing ANYONE of Anti-Semitism and I'll DEFY you to show me the sentence where I did. As far as the numbers of this and the percentages of that are concerned, there is a war going on. Wars are not fair. There are no umpires standing by saying "OK. Now this side has to have 500 casulties to even things up." Yes, the death ratio is 3 to 1. Do you know why? Because the Palestinians are fighting a modern army using hand weapons and their leaders encourage it. To my mind, this doesn't say a whole lot for the Palestinian leaders, who seem prepared to let their people live in camps and die for no gain rather than accept any compromise. They were offered 70% of the country in 1937 and over 50% in 1948 and the Oslo agreement was axed and the Intifada began. But you know all this. Why do you think the Palestinian leaders have refused to accept any compromise? troll BTW If your sons father was Jewish and you are not, he is not considered Jewish. Only the child of a Jewish mother is considered Jewish. Unless, of course, he converts. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part II From: CarolC Date: 01 May 02 - 10:20 PM It would please me if there were not hundreds of dead bodies under the rubble in Jenin. However, that wouldn't erase the deaths of hundreds, if not thousands of Palestinian civilians who have been killed by the IDF in past years. During the peroid between September 28th, 2000 and April 18th, 2001, the percentage of Palestinians killed who were civilians was 89%. And it wouldn't change the fact that there have been more that three Palestinians killed for every Israeli killed. Check out the numbers posted on the subject above. And I'll try to find some more for you if those aren't enough. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part II From: CarolC Date: 01 May 02 - 09:58 PM If they came for your wife and son, they might come for my son as well. I think you're too free with your accusations of anti-semitism. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part II From: Troll Date: 01 May 02 - 09:53 PM GUEST 8:01, the photo is a clumsy fake. If you will look at the soldiers in the three upper photos, and the people in the lower photos, you will see that they are not the eame people; different clothing and weapons. Nice try but no cigar. GUEST9:06, there was an article in one of the news mags and also on line showing an after-the-fact mock-up of the positions of the child and his father, the IDF and whoever else was shooting. The fields of fire and the angles were wrong for the child to have been killed by the IDF. I also read -but can't recall where because it's been a while- that a ballistic test on the bullet that killed the child was from an AK47, a weapon that is not used by the IDF. Since I cannot provide documentation, I don't expect you to believe it but... Carol, I meant that I can't win. I thought that you would be pleased to learn that there were not hundreds of Palestinian bodies lying in the rubble. But apparently not. Anyhow, here's more on the subject. click here Why would you consider me an embarassment, Carol? Because I refuse to see things YOUR way? You are right about one thing, I am not a Jew. Why don't you read a little history and find out what happened to those Gentiles in WWII who were married to Jews? If they come for my wife and son, they'll come for me too. So I'll continue to be an "embarrasment" to those whose positions I disagree with by trying to point out the OTHER side. BTW, I have no idea who you are accusing of "emotional blackmail". Far be it from me to try to shut you up. You have a perfect right to express your opinion in any way you see fit. troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part II From: GUEST Date: 01 May 02 - 09:06 AM Thanks for that link, guest 8:01. I guess that pretty much explains why the Israelis refuse to cooperate with the UN delegation investigating the war crimes claims. There are likely more photos like this, damning the actions of the Israeli occupation force they don't want to see on American television. It is, IMO, a human rights violation on the part of the mainstream media not to show these pictures, despite misgivings about sources and all that. Of course, there wasn't all that much outrage when the little Palestinian boy crouching alongside a wall beside his father, was shot by the IDF in the early days of the intifada, either. Palestinian lives don't seem to be worth as much as Israeli lives to the world at large, do they? It is just so terribly sad. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part II From: GUEST Date: 01 May 02 - 08:01 AM IDF making an arrest |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part II From: CarolC Date: 01 May 02 - 04:56 AM I like the motto that the group, Jews for Peace in Palestine and Israel uses... Let us not be the ones to say, "We saw, and we kept silent".
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part II From: CarolC Date: 01 May 02 - 03:29 AM Ah, what the hell. I'm not going to let a little bit of emotional blackmail shut me up.
This is a small sampling of what I found when I did a Google search with the key words: "ratio" + "killed" + "Israel" + "Palestinian"
Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting
This, by the Israeli human rights group B'Tselem (a small excerpt from the article in contained in the above link).
The devastating human toll of such "retaliations" makes these imbalances all the more striking. According to the latest estimates from the Israeli human rights group B'Tselem, 897 of the Palestinians killed from September 29, 2000 though March 30, 2002 have been civilians. Israeli security forces killed 823 of those 897 people, including 192 children. B'Tselem records that 253 Israeli civilians were killed by Palestinians in the same period, including 48 children. At least 16 of those 253 people were killed by Palestinian National Authority security forces or persons reportedly linked to them. B'Tselem notes that these figures include neither suicide bombers nor Palestinians who "died after medical treatment was delayed" by Israeli forces.
some more of the same or similar
And this one from Jews for Peace in Palestine and Israel
"Even if you are at war with a city… you must not destroy its trees." (Deut 20: 19-20)
Since September 28th, 2000 and as of April 18th, 2001:
Number of olive trees and fruit trees uprooted by the Israeli army: 25,000
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part II From: CarolC Date: 01 May 02 - 01:52 AM ...forgot this part: But you're not Jewish, and neither am I. And although I think I would still find you an embarassment even if I was Jewish, I'm not, so I'm not really in a position to say. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part II From: CarolC Date: 01 May 02 - 01:25 AM It's true. Some days you can't. But I think if you were acting as a spokesperson for my ethnic or religious group, I would probably want to tell you to stop. I think my people would consider what you're doing an embarassment, whether or not you were doing it on our behalf. But everybody's different. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part II From: Troll Date: 01 May 02 - 01:17 AM Some days ya just can't win. troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part II From: CarolC Date: 01 May 02 - 01:10 AM That post (01-May-02 - 12:56 AM) looks like an attempt to build Israel up by tearing the Palestinians down.
But I know that if I post something giving a different side of the issue in that link to "level the playing field", I'm going to be accused of all kinds of nasty things. Because only people posting bad things about Palestinians and good things about Israel are allowed to post. On the other hand, I could post something positive about an Israeli, and be accused of anti-semitism for that, too, as I was recently on another thread. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part II From: Troll Date: 01 May 02 - 12:56 AM Lets try again.click here troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part II From: Troll Date: 01 May 02 - 12:53 AM click here troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part II From: CarolC Date: 30 Apr 02 - 06:20 PM I guess that means that a Palestinian is only one-third of a human being. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part II From: CarolC Date: 30 Apr 02 - 06:19 PM The numbers speak for themselves. More than three Palestinians killed for every Israeli killed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part II From: GUEST,Ard Mhacha Date: 30 Apr 02 - 02:41 PM Guest at the top of the thread, the Dublin-Monaghan bombings were the worst atrocities carried out in the troubles. On another thread you will read that the British are trying their best to supress all of the evidence of their role in the bombings . Ard Mhacha.
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part II From: GUEST,Bakunin Date: 30 Apr 02 - 02:36 PM Well said Prof. Berger....
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part II From: Little Hawk Date: 30 Apr 02 - 02:27 PM Professor, he who has a powerful army and air force, and total military superiority on the battlefield needs no suicide bombers in order to massacre and terrorize his opponents, nor does he need to hijack airplanes. Instead, he sends his military jets and bombs the hell of someone. The USA and its Allies lost more people (a handful) to "friendly fire" during the Gulf War than they did to Iraqui fire, while causing the immediate death of at least 200,000 Iraquis with consummate ease, plus the slow death of hundreds of thousands more in the years following. In such a situation, who needs to go after buses or Olympic athletes? Why send people to kill swat a few mosquitoes when you can safely and without personal loss obliterate the entire modern infrastructure of a country from 20,000 feet up? If you chaps had no effective army or air force, if your people were economically devastated, and huddling powerlessly in refugee camps, then you too would do sneaky things like blowing up buses...I guarantee it. Your courageous fighters in the Warsaw Ghetto in 1944 had to resort to sneak attacks on the Nazis, didn't they? They did not have the luxury of maneuvering in the open with panzer divisions and fleets of bombers. The Germans considered them to be "terrorists", of course...lawless people to be exterminated on sight. The powerful always call the powerless some nasty name like "terrorist". It is your own unwillingness to admit to Israel's having greatly contributed to the Middle Eastern cycle of violence that you should be ashamed of. Both Israelis and Palestinians are to blame for that. The fact that they both point their fingers eternally at the other party, while excusing their own violent acts, is typical human hypocrisy, no worse in their case than in yours but equally comparable. You shouldn't be arguing with Carol. You should be arguing with some militant Muslim fanatic whose mind is as closed as yours, and then see whose litany of past grievances is more horrendous and lasts longer. I predict that neither one of you would ever reach the end of it...nor would you reach any degree of understanding regarding the other's point of view or his humanity. And that is why you see fit to kill each other...by whatever means is in your grasp. By the way, I think your media is biased...just a little. It tells you what it wants you to hear, and no more than that. It's just like that on the Palestinian side of the line too... If you had been born a Palestinian, you would BE on the other side of that line. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part II From: GUEST Date: 30 Apr 02 - 01:18 PM Mea culpa Following the latest atrocity in Jerusalem, Secretary Powell pleaded with the Palestinians to issue some form of denunciation. Arafat complained that only the Palestinian side is ever required to denounce terror. Predictably, the Palestinian denunciation later mumbles that they, "deplore the murder of civilians on both sides." Perhaps the Palestinians have a point, and so to set the record straight, I do hereby denounce the following in the name of the Jewish People: 1. All Jewish suicide bombers who have ever acted against Arabs. 2. All Arab buses blown up by Jews. 3. All Arab pizza parlors, malls, discotheques and restaurants destroyed by Jewish terrorists. 4. All airplanes hijacked by Jews since 1903. 5. All Ramadan feasts targeted by Jewish bombs. 6. All Arabs lynched in Israeli cities; all Arab Olympic athletes murdered by Jews; all Arab embassies bombed by Jews. 7. All mosques, cemeteries and religious schools fire bombed or desecrated by Jews in North Africa, France, Belgium, Germany, England or any other country. 8. The destruction of American military, governmental and civilian institutions in Kenya, Pakistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia and Yemen - along with the murder of U.S. Marines and diplomatic personnel. 9. All Jewish school books which claim that Arabs poison wells, use Christian blood to bake pita, control world finance, and murdered Jesus; or that Arab elders meet secretly to plot a world takeover. 10. And I am particularly ashamed at the way my fellow Jews attacked the World Trade Center, Pentagon and civilian aircraft on September 11, and danced in the streets to celebrate the act. Prof. Stephen Berger Tel Aviv Medical Center |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part II From: CarolC Date: 13 Apr 02 - 05:56 PM I assume that's a reference to me. Well, the truth of the matter is, he didn't dump me, and I am not bitter toward all Jewish people.
I am however, pretty upset with the current Israeli government. And I think that's a pretty appropriate thing for me to be. And you, too. Anyway, the suggestion that if a person strongly disagrees with the current government of Israel, they are bitter toward Jewish people in general is not only specious, it's also insideous, and does not help the Jewish cause any more than it helps the Palestinian cause. If I pretended to agree when I don't, I would be coddling all Jewish people. I, personally, don't know any Jews who like being coddled. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part II From: GUEST Date: 13 Apr 02 - 05:48 PM From the Jewish Man's official dating manual: Never dump a cute little shiksa. Otherwise, you run the risk of creating deep bitterness toward all Jewish people and the State of Israel. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part II From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 13 Apr 02 - 05:04 PM One reason why the allegations about houses being flattened with families inside them are being treated as credible is because that is exactly what happened in the first serious war crime alleged against Sharon, back in 1953 in the village of Qibya.
The strenuous efforts made by the attacking forces in Jenin to keep away any outside observers have also fed suspicions. And have made it a lot harder to disprove the suspicions, if they are ungrounded. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part II From: CarolC Date: 13 Apr 02 - 04:49 PM "They always have in the past" And in the past, Israel has always reneged on its agreements with the Palestinians. If they had been honoring their agreements, the suicide bombings would not have been happening. |
