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Help: DT/Forum search problems
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Help: DT/Forum search problems |
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Subject: DT/Forum search problems From: Genie Date: 07 May 02 - 04:39 PM Sometimes--like today--I know the title of an old thread or song and try to find it via a DT and/or forum search, to no avail. Some of you will point out that spelling variations, etc., can cause problems, but that doesn't explain it all. First, I usually try a single word, or a short phrase [if the single word is too common], and I still can't find the thread, even though I know that word or phrase is in the thread title. A couple of times in recent months, I've even finally located the thread through other means and found that the exact thread title was just as I had typed it into the forum search box to begin with--when I had been told that no matches were found! Anyone know what gives? Genie BTW, the thread I''m looking for right now was titled something like "Lyr Req: New WTO verses to This Land Is Your Land." I tried typing "WTO" into the forum search, and could not find the thread. I also unsuccessfully tried "This Land." and "verses" and and "new verses." I know the thread was there last September, but I sure can't find it now. |
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Subject: RE: Help: DT/Forum search problems From: artbrooks Date: 07 May 02 - 04:51 PM Don't know what to tell you. I typed "WTO" in the FORUM search and went right to it. I assume that you weren't looking in the Digitrad search instead? WTO The other option is that the computer gremlins are out to get you! |
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Subject: RE: Help: DT/Forum search problems From: GUEST,Ken Date: 07 May 02 - 04:58 PM Agree with art. WTO came right up using the 'Digitrad and Forum Search' the 'Filter' and the other 'forum search' from the drop down list, for me Ken |
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Subject: RE: Help: DT/Forum search problems From: Genie Date: 07 May 02 - 05:08 PM Art and Ken, I tried both a forum search [covering 365 days] and then a DT/forum search. Both times, when I just typed in WTO or "WTO" I got a "no match found" message. Same result when I tried "This Land"as a forum search. When I tried "verses" I got a very long list of threads but not the thread I was looking for. I don't know why. I'm not saying it never works. It usually does for me. I'm just saying occasionally it doesn't. [This reminds me of the times your car makes funny noises or has some mechanical problem and you take it into the shop, where, of course, the mechanical problem or the noise is miraculously gone!] Genie |
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Subject: RE: Help: DT/Forum search problems From: Sorcha Date: 07 May 02 - 05:17 PM Genie, I always use the straigh Forum Search in the Quick Links drop down first, partly because it's on every page and the DT/Forum Search is only on the main page. Also, the DT/Forum Search (big white box) will not pick up "recent" stuff--recent being a very relative term. I don't know what the cut off date for it is. |
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Subject: RE: Help: DT/Forum search problems From: Genie Date: 07 May 02 - 05:17 PM To illustrate why I am baffled, I just now repeated exactly what I did an hour ago--i.e. I typed "WTO" into the forum search [filter] box and selected 1 year and hit "search, and, voila!, there was the thread I was looking for. Why did it work just now but not an hour ago? Genie P.S., My efforts an hour ago consisted or re-trying the same thing several times, trying a lot of different combinations of words, etc., just to make sure there wasn't some small variation in phrasing or spelling that was responsible. Nothing worked at that time. |
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Subject: RE: Help: DT/Forum search problems From: Jeri Date: 07 May 02 - 05:18 PM The filter works. The search (SuperSearch) hasn't been indexed since about last Aug, so if the thread came along later than that, the search won't find it. |
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Subject: RE: Help: DT/Forum search problems From: Genie Date: 07 May 02 - 05:23 PM Sorcha, I always try a straight forum search first if it is a thread I'm looking for. As I recall, these problems almost always occur when seeking an old thread, not so much with a song lyric per se. One other one I can recall not too long ago was seeking a lyric request thread about a song called "She's Your Mum." I typed "She's Your Mum" into the filter for a forum search thread, specified 3 years, just to be safe, and hit "search." I was told there were no matches. Finally, I found the thread some other way, maybe by typing "mum" into a DT/forum search. The title "She's Your Mum" was in the thread title, exactly as I had typed it, all along! Genie |
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Subject: RE: Help: DT/Forum search problems From: GUEST Date: 07 May 02 - 05:25 PM I was under the impression that the 'Super Search' got indexed every day? Perhaps that was before Max's move. Have things changed since then? |
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Subject: RE: Help: DT/Forum search problems From: Sorcha Date: 07 May 02 - 05:26 PM I know, Genie. Sometimes I have problems with it too. I think Max forgets to feed the gremlins. Guest, there was an announcement that SS would auto-update every night, but I don't think it is happening. |
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Subject: RE: Help: DT/Forum search problems From: Jeri Date: 07 May 02 - 05:34 PM I'm just guessing that when he moved, he went to fewer and slower machines. (I think I remember him saying on the radio that he was selling some equipment.) It might be that he'd have to take Mudcat down to index the search. All I know for sure is that I've never seen a thread newer than Aug 01 when I've looked for things. There are enough ways to search for threads that this doesn't bother me all that much. I miss it, but it's not that big a deal. Can do a user search on myself if I can't remember the name of the thread (I save a somewhat current one on my hard drive because it takes a loooong time) or use the filter. |
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Subject: RE: Help: DT/Forum search problems From: Jim Dixon Date: 07 May 02 - 06:47 PM I've just done a few test searches. I used terms that were guaranteed to produce lots of hits, like "line break" "Joe Clone" "new thread" "song challenge" (It helps to use terms that show up in threads a lot, but don't often appear in songs.) I used the Mudcat SuperSearch found here.
I was not able to turn up anything more recent than 15-May-2000!It would appear that the index hasn't been rebuilt since then. Or maybe the index-builder program started with year zero and crashed when it got to 15-May-2000. (I believe indexes have to be rebuilt periodically in order for the SuperSearch to work properly. The Forum Search (found here) doesn't require an index, but it only looks at the subject line of messages.) That would explain why you can find "She's Your Mum" with a Forum Search but not with a SuperSearch. That thread was started 08-Sep-01! |
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Subject: DT/Forum search hints From: Joe Offer Date: 07 May 02 - 07:21 PM It was my impression that the index for the DigiTrad and Forum SuperSearch was last updated about September, 2001; but maybe I'm wrong on that. We haven't been able to develop an automated process for indexing, and it's a chore that gets forgotten. Spaw posted a pretty good list of search pointers just the other day, and I put a copy of his post toward the bottom of the FAQ thread. I see there is some confusion about which search engine to use for what, so I added some clarification to the search instructions in the first message of the FAQ. Here's a summary:
-Joe Offer- *Occasionally, people cry "censorship" when we change thread titles or consolidate threads. Sorry, but that's the breaks. We generally leave the content of messages alone (threats, SPAM, and personal attacks are not allowed), but we feel an obligation to have a Forum Menu with clearly-named threads. People should not have to open a thread to know what's inside. We also can't allow multiple threads on the same suject to be running at the same time. |
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Subject: RE: Help: DT/Forum search problems From: Jeri Date: 07 May 02 - 07:59 PM I managed to find threads from Mar and Apr 01, but not from Jul or Aug, and I KNOW I found them before. Maybe the webweasels ate the more up-to-date index. |
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Subject: RE: Help: DT/Forum search problems From: Genie Date: 08 May 02 - 01:29 AM Jim D. Joe O., and others, Looks like I didn't make the scenario completely clear. What's happened to me a couple of times is that I do EXACTLY THE SAME PROCEDURE at different times in a day and sometimes it doesn't work the first few times but it does later. That was the case with the forum search [i.e., using the filter] for "She's Your Mum" (a thread from last year) and the one for "WTO," as well. I wonder if it has something to do with how busy the site is at the time. You know, like when you try to access a website or open a long thread at Mudcat and get a message saying "the attempt...failed, and then you try the same thing 5 minutes later and it works. Could the volume of hits on the 'cat at the time affect whether a forum search will work or not? Genie |
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Subject: RE: Help: DT/Forum search problems From: MMario Date: 08 May 02 - 08:43 AM Genie - it could be the general busyness/state of health of the internet and or the site itself ; I get the same inconsistant results with several other sites; but since it ispart of my job I usually do know when the health index of the internet is down - so it doesn't come as a surprise |
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Subject: RE: Help: DT/Forum search problems From: IanC Date: 08 May 02 - 12:34 PM If anybody's listening, I for one would be ultra grateful if the supersearch index could be updated. It is getting so that it's difficult to find something in the "I know this was discussed in a thread fairly recently" category. This means that we are crossreferencing threads much less and also that the forum's usefulness for serious research (I use it as a starting point for quite a few small projects) is getting less.
Thanks!!! |
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Subject: RE: Help: DT/Forum search problems From: Jim Dixon Date: 08 May 02 - 01:52 PM We seem to have a problem with apostrophes. When I type "She's your mum" DIRECTLY into the search box for the Forum search (found here), I get results. When I type "She's your mum" into my word processor (Microsoft Word 97) and then copy and paste the whole phrase into the search box, I get NO results. The reason is that Word converts my straight-up-and-down apostrophe to a curved apostrophe, which is a different character. Apparently the search engine does not treat them as equivalents and does not find a match. Genie, do you ever use a word processor this way? If so, would you repeat my experiment and see if you get the same results? Do you think that could explain your previous inconsistent results? |
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Subject: RE: Help: DT/Forum search problems From: Joe Offer Date: 08 May 02 - 03:02 PM Hi, Genie- I've always found the Filter to be quite consistent, as long as you use the same search terms and time length. The Filter searches only the thread titles, so it doesn't have to work very hard. We have some 47,000 threads for the filter to search. Like Jim says, the Filter does trip up on punctuation (and special characters)in thread titles, which is why we encourage people to generally use standard English letters and numbers in thread titles. If there's an apostrophe, you have to use it in a thread title to make sense - but it does cause search problems. The Forum Search (click) is a different beast. It searches our 700,000 messages under message title and user name. I think it's almost as reliable as the Filter. The Digitrad and Forum Search (SuperSearch) is our most powerful search engine. It searches the entire text of all our messages, although I'm not sure if it also searches thread and message titles. While it's our most powerful searcher, it's also our most problematic one. Max has experimented with a number of different processes for this search engine, and we haven't yet come up with one that is completely satisfactory. The Filter and Forum Search are proven, solid engines. They work darn well - within the scope of their function. The SuperSearch is still what I would call "experimental" - it has always had problems. Hope that helps. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Help: DT/Forum search problems From: Jim Dixon Date: 08 May 02 - 03:26 PM I just repeated my experiment using the Filter instead of the SuperSearch. Results are similar. "She's" with straight apostrophe finds matches. "She's" with curved apostrophe finds no matches. Same thing with "it's" and "there's". Can you see the difference in the characters on your screen? I suppose browsers might vary.
it's – it’s |
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Subject: RE: Help: DT/Forum search problems From: GUEST Date: 08 May 02 - 03:32 PM How do you get different apostrophes, Jim? My keyboard only has one apostrophe key that I can find. |
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Subject: RE: Help: DT/Forum search problems From: Sorcha Date: 08 May 02 - 03:37 PM Ampersand codes. |
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Subject: RE: Help: DT/Forum search problems From: MMario Date: 08 May 02 - 03:42 PM I don't have that problem, Jim, but then again I turned the feature off in word, so it doesn't substitute. |
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Subject: RE: Help: DT/Forum search problems From: Joe Offer Date: 08 May 02 - 03:47 PM Jim used HTML ampersand codes to display the different apostrophes, but they also exist on your computer. Microsoft WORD and many other word-processing programs automatically change the apostrophe and quotation mark keystroke to the appropriate form (or what Microsoft thinks is appropriate). If you copy-paste from a Word or HTML or text document, you'll sometimes get one apostrophe and sometimes the other. If you're over 50, like I am, your eyes are usually too weak to see the difference, and stuff like that can give a guy fits. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Help: DT/Forum search problems From: Sorcha Date: 08 May 02 - 03:50 PM Girls, too, Joe, LOL! I guess we need BillD in here with his fonts.......... It ain't perfect, but it's pretty damn good most of the time. |
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Subject: RE: Help: DT/Forum search problems From: Genie Date: 09 May 02 - 02:37 AM Jim D., I sometimes type in Word and then cut and paste when I'm posting to a thread, but I've never done this when searching for a thread, so that's not been the problem for me in finding threads. Again, Joe, I'm positive that I typed the thread title EXACTLY the same way when I got a "no match" reply as when I was led straight to the thread. Also, I tried single words [e.g., "Mum, " or "WTO"] and was told there were no matches, even though those words were part of the actual thread titles.
Please let me assure you that I did not start this thread in haste. I checked, re-checked, re-re-checked, re-re-re-checked, etc., first, to make sure I wasn't making some of the mistakes you folks have suggested. I started the thread only after determining that sometimes: I almost always try a search in various ways (filter, DT/forum search,etc.; key word search, key phrase search, etc.) before saying the attempt "didn't work." Yes it does work the vast majority of the time--but not always. I'm not complaining, Joe. You Mudcat folks do a phenomenal job! I'm just giving you information on a problem that occurs sometimes. Genie |
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Subject: RE: Help: DT/Forum search problems From: artbrooks Date: 09 May 02 - 10:21 AM Like I said before, PC gremlins, or what used to be commonly referred to as "the inate perversity of inanimate objects". My personal solution to the problem of something not being where I think it should be is to go and get another cup of coffee and try again later. That almost always works. |
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Subject: RE: Help: DT/Forum search problems From: Jim Dixon Date: 09 May 02 - 01:29 PM I decided to follow Mmario's example, and I turned off the feature called Smart Quotes. Here's how you do it, in Microsoft Word 97: Click "Tools" then "AutoCorrect..." then "AutoFormat As You Type", then uncheck the box that says "Replace as you type ... 'Straight quotes' with 'smart quotes.'" I actually liked the Smart Quote feature. I thought it looked nice, especially things destined for publication. (I have occasionally designed brochures, etc.) But I suppose it cause more trouble than it's worth sometimes. For instance, I used to use an e-mail program with a spell-checker that would bounce every word that contained a curvy apostrophe. (It's, that's, aren't, etc.) I can always turn it back on when I need it. |
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Subject: RE: Help: DT/Forum search problems From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 09 May 02 - 02:10 PM A number of times I have got the no match message, but found the match on trying again later, as noted above. I sometimes get a match in DT but not in Forum search or vice versa. I have taken to making a list of thread numbers and titles that I think I will be revisiting. The search under Links of my postings always works, but for older postings, my eyes rebel and I have to go back a couple of times before my brain comprehends the entry. Some people mis-spell their thread titles. I wish they would check their spelling before starting one. "La Camparsita" for La Cumparsita is one running now. Some of these are never corrected. |
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Subject: RE: Help: DT/Forum search problems From: Joe Offer Date: 09 May 02 - 02:49 PM Dicho brings up an interesting point. I guess I'm the one who usually changes titles - JoeClones are very limited in what they're allowed to do. Generally, I don't change thread titles because I think that the person who starts a thread should be able to find it. Sometimes, I will add to a thread title so people will more readily know what's inside a thread; and I often change the thread prefix if it's wrong - but I don't change the basic title very often. I'm much more active in changing message titles. If lyrics are posted that aren't in the Digital Tradition, I try to ensure that the message has ADD and the song title (with correct spelling). I miss some, but I think I have a pretty good batting average on that. You can get some false hit on ADD threads because every message will have the word ADD in it, but you can be pretty sure that there will be lyrics in at least one message in the thread. If there are alternate spellings or alternate song titles, I try to put the alternates in at least one message in the thread (note that there is one message in the "Camparsita" thread with the "Cumparsita" spelling). When we have a number of threads on the same song, I had been posting cross-links in the first message of each thread, so people can easily refer to the other threads on the song. Recently, Pene gave me the ability to transfer messages from one thread to another, so I've been moving messages from shorter threads into the related thread that has more messages. This can be a bit confusing when you see a thread that starts with the posting of lyrics and ends with a request for the same song - I'm working on a way to clarify that, but haven't come up with something yet. So, I guess I'd suggest that if you're looking for music information, your best bet might be to use the Forum Search, at least until we can figure out a way to automate the SuperSearch index. Note, however, that the latest SuperSearch index is newer than the latest edition of the Digital Tradition, so the SuperSearch works quite well for searching the DT. As for non-music threads, I have to say that I stay away from them most of the time. I make sure they have a "BS:" designation, and then leave them alone. I really don't like to be bothered with making corrections in "BS:" threads. -Joe Offer-
Here's a message from one of the JoeClones: (JoeClones are traditionally anonymous, which is why I'm adding my remarks to Joe's instead of adding a new message under my own name.) Lately I've made it my business to check every thread that starts with "Lyr Req:" and be sure that every message that contains lyrics has an appropriate title (a.k.a. subject). Some examples of good subject lines are:
Lyr Add: IN PRAISE OF ALCOHOL (Robert W. Service)
Here are my rules: (1) I always use the prefix "Lyr Add:" except when it would be more appropriate to use "Lyr/Chords Add:" or "Lyr/Tune Add:" or some other combination. (2) I always follow this with the song title in all caps. I believe the song title should be spelled exactly the way it was on the recording or other published source, if the source is known. (3) If space permits, and if the information is readily available, I also try to include the name of the songwriter, performer, or ethnic origin (in parentheses, in upper/lower case). If you do these things yourself when you post lyrics, you will save me some work.
But I don't like to spend a lot of time checking spelling and verifying sources. If the person who posted the lyrics got the title or author wrong, I will probably get it wrong, too.
My goal is to make the Forum Search a reliable way to find songs. I have already accomplished a lot toward that goal. I usually look at new or refreshed "Lyr Req:" threads within 2 days after people quit posting to them. I have also looked back at old "Lyr Req:" threads as far back as nearly a year. I will continue going back further as time permits. |
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