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FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet?
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Subject: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: maire-aine Date: 21 Jul 02 - 12:38 PM I'm debating the question with myself. Has anybody gone off the HRT since the study results came out? Any effects? And folks, don't complain about the thread. You were warned in the title. |
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: Sorcha Date: 21 Jul 02 - 12:52 PM What study? I haven't heard....... |
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: maire-aine Date: 21 Jul 02 - 01:06 PM I can't do blue clickies yet, but here's a report from one of the local tv stations. http://www.clickondetroit.com/sh/health/stories/health-154920220020709-080753.html |
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: Sorcha Date: 21 Jul 02 - 01:10 PM hmmm, I'll have to ask about this. I've been on Prem/Pro for at least 5 years. Thanks for the site. |
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: GUEST,Grrrl Date: 21 Jul 02 - 01:15 PM I never went on it, and never will. The risk factors associated with HRT have been suspected and well documented for many years, despite the lack of an official government study to back up the anecdotal evidence. I see this as being another of the many hysterical AMA approaches to women's reproductive health gone badly wrong, and now even the government is declaring it official. I never take the word of doctors or the government at anything beyond face value with these things. They told us we should feed our babies formula, banned us from public places for nursing infants and toddlers (especially the toddlers!), told us the pill and HRT were perfectly safe, that PMS was just another example of hysterical female syndrome, and on and on ad nauseum. Do I need a male medical and political establishment to tell me what's good for me? Well honey, all I got to say to that is--look at their track record, and tell me what you think women should do. LIVE WITH THE HOT FLASHES!!! Women have for milleniums, so what makes you think we are so special we should treat perfectly normal female functions as a disease state to be "managed" by clueless men? |
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: JohnInKansas Date: 21 Jul 02 - 01:28 PM A recent article is at Should you stop?. A couple of recent reports have been "sensationalized" by news media. The new reports provide some additional information - that should be considered, but certainly don't merit any "panic" reaction by anyone. The studies deal with long term effects on "low incidence" results. The report is that if 30 of 10,000 women (0.30%) might eventually suffer something (blood clot, heart attack, etc) without HRT, the particular treatment studied might increase the incidence to 35 of 10,000 (0.35%) - which the news reports as a "16 percent increase." The 5 additional people at risk can probably be identified - there is little reason for the 9,995 others to suffer because of these reports. John |
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: Ebbie Date: 21 Jul 02 - 01:35 PM JohnInKansas, no offense- but that is a typically male response. You are trying to reassure us on the basis of rate of incidence- but ignoring the relevance of intervention. Menopause is NOT a disease. |
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: NicoleC Date: 21 Jul 02 - 01:52 PM I'm not that that point yet, but I will NEVER take HRT. I have too many friends that stopped taking it and realized that as a *whole person* they felt much better without, despite the hot flashes.
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: GUEST,mg Date: 21 Jul 02 - 01:54 PM I never considered it for one minute...although I would if I had been in the "suffering" category...I suspect that the epidemic of tribulations around this natural time of a woman's life is at least partially due to the low fat nonsense (avoid trans fats but check into health benefits of good fats..) that people have been brainwashed into...and with low fat usually comes a diet too high in processed carbs.....not enough fat means not a healthy endocrine system... mg |
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: Giac Date: 21 Jul 02 - 02:02 PM You go, Grrrl!! I feel the same way about it. Mary |
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: katlaughing Date: 21 Jul 02 - 03:01 PM If one does want to lessen the natural effects, motherwort, dandelion root, and hawthorn berry tinctures are all good for you and do help. I took them, daily for a couple of years and felt very good. I feel the same way, Grrrrlll! Esp. after researching and writing an article on premarin, literally named after the pregnant mares' urine from which it is made. Those aren't hot flashes! |
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: Nigel Parsons Date: 21 Jul 02 - 03:39 PM John in Kansas: isn't it great, a newspaper has finally worked out that an increase from 30 occurences in 10,000, to 35 in 10,000 IS a 16% increase (actually 16.66.) There really is no other way to describe it, if you consider that from 0.3% to 0.35% is only a 0.05% increase, then you have no way of understanding if the incidence goes to 0.7%. Mathematicians, accountants, and many others will tell you this is a 100% increase (the incidence has doubled), but it is still taking too long for this standard system of describing percentages to permeate to the media! And yes, men do suffer from PMT. The women get it, we suffer. There again, I don't suffer from sleepless nights. I snore, my wife suffers! Nigel |
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: The Pooka Date: 21 Jul 02 - 04:03 PM Since a couple other people of the male persuasion have already threadcrept in on little tom'Cat feet, I hereby compound said intrusion but only to report: my wife has taken Prempro for several years, has not panicked, is still taking it, and will discuss it with her (female)gynocologist when she sees her for regular appointment next month. (On NPR I heard an expert say that women on HRT should *not* stop on their own without consulting, since each individual case is different.) |
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: Amos Date: 21 Jul 02 - 05:09 PM Ya know, it is just possible that mellerdrammer is a mutually destructive activity, not really qualified as a mature adult mode of dialog or progress, eh? Its been my experience that oblivious cluelessness is a species-wide shortcoming, not a gender-specific one, and that there aren't many of us out here in the woild who don't need all the help we can get! :>) A |
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: CarolC Date: 21 Jul 02 - 05:25 PM There's a third alternative, with no side effects, and it is risk free. I've been using it for a few years with very good results. And by using these natural hormones, I decrease the chances that I will experience osteoporosis... |
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: CarolC Date: 21 Jul 02 - 05:26 PM http://www.life-flo.com/estrocare.html |
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: JohnInKansas Date: 22 Jul 02 - 03:14 AM Ebbie - No, that is not a "typical male response." And yes, I do take offense (a little) - although I think I understand where you are coming from. I have been associated with a "person of the female persuasion" who has had a great deal of difficulty with "this situation." (3 hospitalizations and multiple transfusions, among other things.) I believe that I have been supportive, and understanding in her case; and I recognize the difficulty that many women have in making decisions in this matter. Each person must make their own decisions, hopefully with as much knowledge of their personal situation as they can gather. It is a very difficult thing for many to handle, and I must agree with the many here that many doctors do "have the typical male attitude." (My own doctor is female for similar reasons.) The point I intended was that this "new research" adds something to what can be understood about the risks and options, but that it does NOT constitute, by itself, a reason to forget all of the other things that should be considered. Anyone now in HRT presumedly made the decision to do so based on some assessment of the risks and benefits associated with that course of management. The additional information from these recent reports may call for a reassessment of your personal situation, but those results alone aren't enough for a sound decision. And someone else's experience is not really "good enough" for you. It's your body. You must take care of it - but please treat it kindly, and carefully. John |
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: Mark Cohen Date: 22 Jul 02 - 03:27 AM Carol, on what basis do you make the claim that these product are "risk free"? There certainly are benefits from using plant-derived medicines as opposed to synthetic ones, in specific situations. But any biologically active chemical compound can have adverse effects, no matter what its source. Aloha, Mark |
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: Dragonmom Date: 22 Jul 02 - 03:28 AM Well as for my meno moment. I must say that with out hrt I am one psycho bitch! Never mind the hot flashes, those I can live with. Its the threat of bodely harm to those I love, plus the out of control bleeding. I have tried soy(what a friggen joke!)And herbal teas ,rubs, tinctures, and blind hope. My Doctor is a very careful Man, and I trust him. He watches and test me all the time. So far I am 100% better. This just proves that everyone reacts differently. Plus, I am royally sick of healthcare studies going one way and then another!! Anyway I am not going to stop taking HRT till my Doctor says I should stop. Dragonmom, on a rip. |
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: Murray MacLeod Date: 22 Jul 02 - 03:52 AM Serious question here. Having seen a "Hot Flash" referred to twice on this thread, I feel compelled to ask if this is a typo, or yet another of our beloved Anglo/ US variations. It's just that in Britain, what menopausal women get is a "Hot Flush". A "Hot Flash" over here would be something much more likely to be experienced by a younger woman, usually when out jogging in a secluded spot, or while walking her dog in the park .... Murray |
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: GUEST,cris Date: 22 Jul 02 - 04:10 AM if you don't make insulin you are diabetic and don't think twice about using insulin. HRT is a hormone and if you don't make enough then you should't think twice about using it. The pros outway the cons. |
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: Nigel Parsons Date: 22 Jul 02 - 05:31 AM This subject is currently (See message time) being discussed on BBC Radio 4, which is available 'live' on line. The programme concerned is Monday's "Womans Hour", and will probably be archived for later listening. A Gooogle search on "BBC Radio 4" will find the home site. Mention has been made of both the UK & the US research. Nigel |
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: GUEST,Philippa Date: 22 Jul 02 - 07:24 AM Carol- you provided a link for a progesterone supplement. Note that so far the HRT trial that has been halted because of the increased incidence of heart problems and breast cancer is the one which includes progesterone (admittedly in a synthetic form which is not chemically identical to human progesterone), while the trial of oestrogen only goes ahead. Progesterone is necessary with HRT to prevent build up of the uterine endometrium, but is not usually prescribed to women who have had hysterectomy. Dr Lee writes that progesterone is needed more than oestrogen. Women's bodies continue to produce oestrogen in smaller quantities but progesterone production ceases. I believe there is a clinical trial on-going in England to assess the effectiveness of 'natural' progesterone [derived from plants but formulated in the laboratory to match the chemical composition of human progesterone] in treating menopausal symptoms. But so far I don't think much study has been done and the companies marketing progesterone creams are putting out a lot of hype. This has come to my attention because Dr Lee has made claims for progesterone as a treatment for uterine fibroids (benign tumours) in premenopausal / peri-menopausal women, claims for which he has no clinical evidence. I have been sceptical on that matter because fibroids thrive during pregnancy, when high levels of progesterone are present, and shrink when women are treated with low doses of an anti-progesterone drug, mifepristone. Perhaps the problems with HRT are partly because the prescription is not tailored well enough to a woman's needs - the formulations are not identical to human hormones and oestrogen is administered in constant amounts rather than fluctuating as it naturally would during a woman's cycle. Can someone compose a song on the subject? |
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: Bat Goddess Date: 22 Jul 02 - 07:37 AM Never started and never intended to -- the cons by far outweighed the benefits. And I do think that for any purpose other than the temporary (a couple years at most) relief of menopausal symptoms, it was a clear case of the medicalization of normal aging. But I've never had hot flashes, wild mood swings or any other really annoying symptoms of menopause. Maybe soy worked for me, maybe I just don't have a lot of negative symptoms. HRT is STILL fine for temporary relief of menopausal symptoms -- it's just not indicated for long term use for prevention of potential heart problems, etc. It's ALWAYS had higher incidence of certain cancers, etc. depending on personal history, etc. But the drug companies make a lot more money if they can market it as a blanket panacea. I've also always had major objections to the method of production, especially for Premarin -- treatment of the pregnant mares, etc. Linn |
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: Genie Date: 22 Jul 02 - 10:27 AM Grrrrl, it's not the hot flashes that concern me nearly as much as the osteoporosis does. I have known many a reasonably healthy 80-something-year-old woman to break a hip in a minor fall and then die within days because of the pneumonia that often sets in after a hip fracture. Not to mention women so crippled from osteoporosis that they can't begin to stand up straight. When you weigh the increased risk of cancer, heart attack, stroke, etc. from HRT it's important to consider the risks associated with loss of bone density that is part of "normal post-menopausal aging," too. Personally, I want more information on other factors that may indicate who should and should not use HRT. BTW, re turning to plant estrogens and other "natural" substitutes for HRT. We don't have the same kind of long-term large scale studies on their effects. Do we know that plant estrogens will NOT have the same risks that animal estrogens do? As Dr. Mark C. pointed out, they're still biologically active chemical compounds. Genie |
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: Deda Date: 22 Jul 02 - 11:23 AM I went into menopause very early, at age 40, possibly because I spent about a decade depressed and very underweight during my first marriage. As soon as I went onto HRT, I experienced emotional stability for the first time in my life. I've actually had about thirteen depression-free (i.e., stable, happy, emotionally independent, generally feeling able to tackle life and the world) years largely because of HRT. I love HRT. I did switch from the generic, horse-urine stuff to a (more expensive) human-identical form some years ago at the urging of my acupuncturist. My acupuncturist would like to see me off HRT but every time I try I can feel myself starting to slip emotionally and I'm not willing to go there. Since the study came out I have cut myself down to every other day, and so far it's working fine. I'd love to be able to live without depending on pills but short of going onto a raw-food diet and making my entire life revolve around my diet, my choices are HRT or living with raging emotional ups & downs, which seriously curtail my ability to live. I have a generally healthy diet and take a bunch of vitamins and supplements, loosely based on Andrew Weil's website advice (www.drweil.com, I think). |
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: Mudlark Date: 22 Jul 02 - 12:08 PM I personally dont take HRT, and am trying to avoid the possible side effects of that by eating healthy to avoid heart attacks, and taking calcium/magnesium in a highly assimulable form coupled with as much exercise as I can push this carcass to endure. I experimented cautiously with HRT years ago and decided that for me the benefits (negligible, at least symptomatically)did not outweigh my concerns about side effects. A note of caution for those dosing heavily with soy products instead...not a good idea if you've a thyroid problem. Info. re this interaction on About.com's thyroid site. |
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: GUEST,Philippa Date: 22 Jul 02 - 12:32 PM Genie - they say HRT only protects while you are using it and that once you stop calcium loss quickly catches up, so you would need to be on it very long term indeed. Maybe justified if you have more than average tendency to osteoporosis, but there are other medications beside HRT that help maintain bone mass. We can't escape aging; but laying up strong bones while we are young, a healthy diet and weight-bearing exercise will all help to lessen the degree of osteoporosis we suffer. You ask "Do we know that plant estrogens will NOT have the same risks that animal estrogens do?" We don't know much about the effects of high-dose supplementation, though there is evidence against too high dosages of soya. But people have been eating beans and pulses, yams, and other vegetables in as dietary staples for centuries and generally the evidence is that a diet high in phytoestrogens in their unrefined form is healthy. It is also known from laboratory testing that these plant oestrogens are weaker in action than the oestradiol, the strongest of the human oestrogens. And there is statistical evidence that diets high in soya products are protective against breast cancer rather than the reverse. |
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: CarolC Date: 22 Jul 02 - 12:50 PM Mark and Phillipa,
The way I understand it (and I could be wrong) is that the risks are largely associated with imbalances in the two hormones (progesterone and estrogen) and with the chemically altered forms of these hormones that are usually given to women in prescription form.
My own experience has been that my uterine fibroids, ovarian cysts, and endometriosis, which can be quite severe and excedingly painful and debilitating, go away almost completely when I use a natural, pharmaceutical grade progesterone cream. And if I don't use the progesterone, I have extremely severe PMS all month long (bloating, pain everywhere, feeling like acid is flowing in my veins, insomnia, uncontrolable jerking in my legs, headaches, and feeling like I'm going crazy and wanting to die), and I lose a hell of a lot of blood, resulting in severe and chronic anemia.
I can't take the prescription form of progesterone because it gives me severe and debilitating side effects. The natural form gives me no side effects.
Using the natural estrogen cream prevents and/or alleviates hot flashes, and hair loss that I experience without it. The prescription form of estrogen gives me such severe side effects, it makes me want to die.
My understanding is that both the estrogen and the progesterone are necessary for the prevention of osteoporosis. |
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: GUEST,Grrrl Date: 22 Jul 02 - 01:13 PM Anyone who is on HRT as a "prevention" medication for osteoporosis, heart disease, and breast cancer has been duped (unwittingly or not) by of the pharmaceutical industry, IMO. As to the claim that one isn't a bitch if one is on HRT, I beg to differ with that one as well. If one's angry behavior is that out of control, the problem likely as little to do with hormones, and plenty to do with one's life circumstances. There are other much more effective means of dealing with those sorts of behaviors than using HRT as a preventive medication. I'd love to see a placebo test of this theory that HRT treatment reduces anger in rage in women who have many good, rational reasons for being angry with their "loved ones" (ahem). People need to be really careful of what they take today as "preventive" medicine for the major life threatening diseases, IMO. The studies aren't being done well, for long enough, on adequately sampled populations, etc. to claim much in the way of "conclusively proven to be effective." Let us remember that pharmaceutical companies make obscenely huge profits advertising these medications so you will run to your doctor and demand the medication, whether it has been well tested or not. And approval for use by the FDA does not constitute "well tested" in my book. |
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: Ebbie Date: 22 Jul 02 - 01:31 PM I agree almost totally with Grrl. Treat the symptoms, for pity sake, but don't do preventive stuff on a natural phenomenon unless you have to. Have any studies been done on remote populations that don't have access to HRT? In the old documentaries I don't remember seeing one single old person bent in half from osteoporosis. (Although, assuming the cameramen were male, maybe they were just repulsed by the sight and didn't film it?) As for what CarolC describes as PMS, I have doubts. I chose not to do HRT although I was treated with a month's dosage in 5 days of birth control pills to stop uncontrollable bleeding when I went with a bang into menopause. After that, I did have the occasional hot flash/flush and once in awhile I felt weepy. But I went through a heck of a lot more than that when I went into puberty! |
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: GUEST,Grrrl Date: 22 Jul 02 - 02:13 PM I did begin using soy milk & also tried a "natural" progesterone cream. The former did nothing to alleviate symptoms, the latter made me much worse. What has worked: recognition of the natural ebbs and flows of my time constraints, energy, and emotions. Acceptance of my aging--this is HUGE when it comes to women's acceptance of the so-called "symptoms" of menopause! The patience of a saint. The passage of time (all the symptoms subside, return, subside, return). Regular exercise, and being very conscious of my diet and what foods trigger physical responses in my particular body. Regular time to myself, that I surrender for no one, built into my daily schedule. I've also learned to set healthy boundaries between myself and my "loving family" (haha). Competent women especially have to battle the natural tendency of their family and friends taking advantage of them by making incessant demands that we do for them what they can and should be doing for themselves. It also helps to have a very healthy "fuck this shit, life is too short" attitude, particularly towards "loves ones" demands. Especially the "loved ones" who don't even mean well! And every woman of menopausal age knows which loved ones THEY are, don't we ladies? ;-) |
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: Genie Date: 22 Jul 02 - 02:17 PM Philippa, that's something I didn't know about HRT (rapid calcium loss once you stop). Maybe it's a good idea to taper off gradually at some point rather than go "cold turkey." My mom is 86 and still taking HRT (under the supervision of my two sisters, who are family practice MDs). She seems to be thriving on it, coupled with a good deal of daily exercise (gardening, housework, walking, stair climbing, some arm exercise with small weights, and a Health Rider) and a diet restricted in simple carbohydrates. (She has mild late-onset diabetes.) She does not have her uterus any more, though, so she takes only estrogen (Estradiol). She also eats a good deal of soy and takes soy supplements (among other nutritional supplements.) Her mother, by the time she died at ca. age 87, had bones so thin that they hardly showed up in x-rays and was very bent over at the waist (though she had been a very hardworking farmer's wife up to at least age 55 or 60--i.e., her bones got a lot of weight bearing exercise in younger years). She had had several strokes, though, so that does seem to be a family risk factor, as well as osteoporosis. These are all things to weigh in making the decision re HRT. I tried Fosamax for a while and stopped it because of pronounced side effects. It was either persistent diarrhea, ankle edema, irregular heartbeat or some combination of those. (I can't recall exactly, because there was another medicine I took that caused one of those symptoms, too.) At any rate the side effects were severe enough to be disruptive to my daily life and work. I do eat a lot of edamame, soy "ice cream," soy nutrition bars, etc. But if I eat very much, I'm not an asset to most group activities, if you catch my...er...drift. (If Beano weren't so expensive, I guess one could just take a couple of those before every soy meal...) Carol C, are you saying you use only a cream (topical) form of both progesterone and estrogen and that both are human-derived? Can you tell me what the brand names are or who makes/markets them? I'd like to ask my doctors about them. My sister has suggested I ask my doctor about a combination of estrogen, progesterone and (a very low dose of) testosterone. It's got to be the right balance, and she says I might have to try different doses and monitor my reaction for a while to tweak the balance to get it right. I haven't run this by my Kaiser doc yet (because procrastination is one of my hobbies), but I'm wondering if any of you have any knowledge of this kind of combined HRT. Or is there a good website for information on such? Genie
Ebbie, re the documentaries and not seeing bent-over old people, it could be any of several explanations. |
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: CarolC Date: 22 Jul 02 - 02:21 PM I can understand how you might have doubst, Ebbie, if you've never experienced severe PMS.
My understanding, and my experience bears this out well enough for me to believe it, is that PMS is caused by estrogen dominence. When I ingest estrogens and estrogen like substances in dairy products and eggs (which are given to the farm animals in their feed or as injections), I get severe PMS. If I don't take the progesterone (an estrogen antagonist), I get severe PMS. If I use too much of the estrogen cream, I get severe PMS. When I apply the progesterone cream, most, if not all of the PMS symptoms go away. Some of them go away within minutes.
Anyone who has the symptoms I mentioned, including the endometriosis, uterine fibroids, ovarian cysts, and heavy menstrual flow, can try using a natural, pharmaceutical grade progesterone cream and see if it works for them. My guess is that it will work for them. (BTW, I don't use the brand in the links I posted. I just posted those because they seemed as good as any other brands of these products.) |
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: CarolC Date: 22 Jul 02 - 02:29 PM Hi Genie, the natural forms of estrogen and progesterone that I use are plant derived, but they are supposed to be essentially the same as the ones we produce in our bodies, unlike the prescription forms, which have been chemically altered for the purpose of patenting them. I'll get the names of the brands I use for you. I've had excellent success with them, and I've used them for several years, in the case of the progesterone cream, and about a year, in the case of the estrogen cream. |
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: CarolC Date: 22 Jul 02 - 02:44 PM Ok, Genie. Here you go...
I use KAL brand natural progesterone cream:
http://www.nutraceutical.com/about/kal.cfm
And Emerita brand phytoestrogen cream:
http://www.emerita.com/content/index.jsp I use the KAL brand progesterone because I like it better and I think it is less expensive (and my local health food store carries it). I use the Emerita estrogen because it's what they've got in my local health food store. |
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: Bat Goddess Date: 22 Jul 02 - 05:29 PM Best prevention of osteoporosis is to continue to do weight-bearing exercise. Note that is CONTINUE . . . Linn |
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: maire-aine Date: 22 Jul 02 - 07:05 PM Thanks for all the information. There's a lot here to consider. |
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: NicoleC Date: 22 Jul 02 - 10:21 PM Some very interesting viewpoints here. I had such a miserable time with puberty, I am kinda braced for a bad menopause :) Then again, I "cured" raging PMS with a diet and lifestyle change, so I really think modern western women set themselves up for a worse time than we'd necessarily have in a fast-food free world. I have thyroid disease, and have to take my thyroid hormone everyday. I know that even slight variations in hormone levels have big effects, and so my doc and I keep a very careful watch on my levels. Yet every woman I've talked to that was prescribed HRT was pretty much given a "standard" dose and let loose. While I don't think I'd ever choose HRT for myself, I have to wonder if so much of the controversy and conflicting studies is caused by inadequately tailoring the treatment to individuals. Given the nature of thyroid hormone, incorrect dosages have obvious side effects! (Like falling asleep in the middle of the day!) Perhaps HRT is more subtle when it comes to mis-dosages? |
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: Gypsy Date: 22 Jul 02 - 10:35 PM Bat Goddess, ye beat me to it. Weight bearing excercise is where i am at. Also, checking out family history, we don't have a tendancy towards osteo. I eat a low fat diet, little meat, and few vices (no cigs, restrained coffee, no alcohol or drugs) In my experience i have known 5 women on HRT. One is dead (ovarian cancer) and four have cancer. Unfortunately, that is far too high a percentage for me. There is NO WAY i will do HRT. Am in peri now, and doin' fine. Mom jetted thru in a year. And she is fine. so will follow her good example. |
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 23 Jul 02 - 12:50 AM Over the years I've found the male-dominated medical profession to be manipulative and self-centered in a lot of women's prescriptions. Often times drugs weren't even tested on women! One of the women who lectures on PBS said it best, in a talk that pointed out that giving women estrogen after surgery or at menopause may keep tissues in good shape for sexual activity for the man, but without testosterone, for many women, who cares? Those of you who haven't made up your minds about HRT might want to consult Christiane Northrup's Women's Bodies, Women's Wisdom (link to Amazon) or her The Wisdom of Menopause. I found the first book very helpful, particularly the tables in the back. I haven't read the second. I lost my uterus and ovaries to cancer surgery; my doctor and I both agreed that I wasn't menopausal yet and that HRT was appropriate. We have osteoporosis in my family (Scandinavian women are very succeptible). My male oncologist obviously didn't read his own survey I filled out (mom died of breast cancer) and damned if he didn't put me on full-dose premarin when I was in the hospital after surgery. I stopped after about three days and worked my way through samples from my OB/GYN, and she was very supportive of my desire to get away from the synthetic horse hormones. If you look at the study that started this discussion, all of those women were taking that synthetic horse stuff, no one mentions bioidentical. I figured out what amounts of estrogen and testosterone felt right (just enough--I'm just barely into the zone of "enough" of these) by taking the Estratest half-strength (I broke tablets and would take the same approximate dose for a couple of weeks before deciding if it was enough or not). One and a third worked for me. Once I had an idea of how much, and at the same time could feel that something wasn't "right" with the synthetics, I switched to bioidentical hormones (E2 and E3, not E1 most commonly linked with breast cancer). The methyltestosterone is still synthetic (but not horse-like) because your body can turn the bioidentical testosterone into estrogen if it needs it, and it tends to turn it into the E1 that is more risky for breast cancer risk and/or survivors. It has been my experience that the formlated prescription is much less $$ than the name brand. I paid $40 for a three month supply on my by-mail plan; for the compound that is made specifically for me, I pay $10.23 for three months. Why? Because they're generic bioidenticals (they're made from Mexican yam). I feel like my old self, and I'm in no rush to get off of the HRT. I personally don't believe the doctors conducting that survey were doing women a favor by nobly "stopping the study" to prevent what they perceived as a considerable amount of die-off due to a few increased statistics. They don't discuss the types of hormones available, or the sources of them. I think the omissions in that statement about ceasing the study is misleading and disingenuous. Someone is covering their backside in one way while leaving a lot of women hanging. SRS |
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: Genie Date: 23 Jul 02 - 04:40 PM Gypsy, you do realize that your personal experience does not reflect the incidence of cancer, stroke, heart attack, etc. among HRT users in the population at large, I hope. Not trying to alter your decision, but if there were a really high incidence of such side effects, no doctor would be prescribing HRT for fear of the lawsuits, even if their medical ethics would allow it. The absolute risk is still low. If women are substantially overweight, smoke, drink, eat too much simple carbohydrate or trans-fat or cholesterol, have a high-stress lifestyle, drive too fast, and/or don't exercise, the risks from HRT may be the least of their worries. Genie |
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: MMario Date: 23 Jul 02 - 04:55 PM gypsy - your Mom got through peri-menopause in a YEAR????? My grandmother was in peri-menopause for several decades; (over thirty years for sure) my Mom for between 18 and 24 years (depending on the definition of onset)(they both ended up opting for hysterectomies). Onset for the women in my family tends to be in the mid thirties - and we're not sure of duration - because we don't have records on any of them EVER being post menapausal without surgery and hormonal treatment. Of my 21 female relatives on my mother's side only one did NOT have some form of HRT - and she died in the '50s.
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: GUEST,Just Amy Date: 23 Jul 02 - 06:00 PM Wow, this went from an informative thread to a male bashing thread really quickly. I agree with whoever said that Menopause is not a disease. I have night sweats like a champ, but I find that blue ice in a towel on my chest helps a lot. Perhaps we should start a thread on Menopause symptoms and how to control them. |
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: Bobert Date: 23 Jul 02 - 09:23 PM Danged, so this is what it's like to be the woman's room. Purdy scarey. Ahhhhhhh, hi. Ummmmmm, ahhhhhhhh, like my wife, the P-Vine, hooked up with on e of the best woman docs in the wealthy Northern Virginia area and well, there was some bone density issues and a history of breast cancer on her mother's side. Well, this doc perscribed "Triest" which is a natural HRT cream which she puts on either her wrists ot thighs once a day. Since using the cream, the hot flashes have vanished and I'z here to say that, well, ummmmmm, hmmmmmmm, all the other stuff works just fine. (Oh, that is the most emabaressin' thing I even posted over her the Catland...) Well, that's the end of my male post. Think I'll just back out of this ladies room while I can.... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: CarolC Date: 23 Jul 02 - 09:34 PM Could you please pass me a roll of TP while you're in here Bobert?
;-) Thanks. |
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: Bobert Date: 23 Jul 02 - 09:51 PM I told you it wasn't a good idea to come in here, Bobert. Now, you're tryin to sneak out and well, like some scarey movie, you've been surrounded bu the women people and they gonna work your sorry Wes Ginny butt over fir coming in here.... Please, CarolC, if I pass the TP, can I leave. Please say, "Yes". An' you won't be seeing my sorry self in the ladies room no more. I promise... The quite trapped in the ladies room with a room full of menapausal womenfole and dreadin it bobert... |
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: Gypsy Date: 23 Jul 02 - 11:09 PM Nnoooooooooooooo i am in peri. Should've been more clear.....mom got thru MENO in about a year. With the symptoms, anyway. She told me peri was about 5 years, and wasn't a big deal for her. Genie, i appreciate your insight. However, i have to go with what i see. And the incidence of cancer in general, has risen sharply in the past 20 years. Just don't want to do anything to exacerbate the situation. The women who i know on HRT with cancer, all lead healthy lifestyles.....the HRT is the only suspect thing that they all have in common. Fortunately, it is an easier decision for me. No osteo, heart, or anything ugly like that in my genes. |
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: GUEST,mg Date: 24 Jul 02 - 12:11 AM well shoot..now I have something to brag about..I got through it in a week. mg |
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: Mark Cohen Date: 24 Jul 02 - 03:22 AM Nicole, I think you've probably hit it square on. And I doubt it's only male doctors who prescribe in a one-dose-fits-all fashion. I know a number of female physicians who are just as arrogant and insensitive as some of their male counterparts. And Carol, I'm sure that the treatments you're using are effective for you, but that's a long way from saying it has "no side effects, and it is risk free" -- which is what your original post said. As I see it, this discussion is a sort of "blind people and the elephant" situation, where everybody focuses on their own bit of experience and point of view, and most everyone is at least partly correct. If you want to bash the medical and pharmaceutical industries, this is certainly a good opportunity to do so. But remember that they're not all bad, nor are "natural" medicines all good. My view is that if a woman spends her adolescence and early adulthood taking in very little calcium, eating poorly in general, ingesting the excessive synthetic estrogens that are present in most meats and dairy products, and getting very little exercise (which is true of most Americans), she's going to be behind the 8-ball when she reaches "our" age, with respect to osteoporosis, increased risk of cancer, and possibly menopausal symptoms as well. Fortunately, moderate exercise and a good diet can make most people healthier at any age. For those who are experiencing clear benefits from HRT, I wouldn't get all panicked because of what is essentially a sensationalized repackaging of information that has been known for a while. On the other hand, it's always best to be cautious and well-informed. You pays your money and you takes your chances. Aloha, Mark |
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: GUEST,mg Date: 24 Jul 02 - 11:28 AM read up on Vitamin K and Vitamin D (in the form of sunlight) and osteoporosis...Krispin Sullivan I think her name is has some good info.. mg |
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: Gypsy Date: 24 Jul 02 - 11:30 AM Me hat's off to ye, Mark. Well said! Now, just to drift a bit.........with the upswing of osteo in MEN, are you guys gonna start taking HRT? mmmmmmmmmmhhhhhhhhhh? LOL |
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: CarolC Date: 24 Jul 02 - 01:18 PM I stand corrected, Mark. |
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: GUEST,Philippa Date: 24 Jul 02 - 06:33 PM If you register at www.medscape.com (free, but you need to answer questions like name and profession), you can read the article "Why Individualizing Hormone Therapy Is Crucial: Putting the Results of the WHI Trial Into Perspective" by Morris Notelovitz, MD, PhD. and by the way, although I've participated in this thread, there are lots of women's health discussion forums (look up the various Yahoo groups, for instance), including menopause discussion groups. I think these are more suitable sites on which to discuss this topic. Unless, of course, someone is going to come up with lyrics! |
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: Genie Date: 24 Jul 02 - 07:44 PM Thanks for the link, Philippa. Mark C. and others, re diet and exercise and osteoporosis, I heard a day or so ago, on NPR, I think, that Kaiser Permanente had done a large study on that topic, comparing HRT in combination with calcium, exercise, etd. to the exercise and dietary treatment along. It was said that they found for women with a strong family hx of osteoporosis, taking calcium and doing weight bearing exercise was not sufficient protection against osteoporosis if they were not on HRT. Do you know anything about this study? Genie
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 25 Jul 02 - 12:00 AM Mark is correct--I've run into insensitive female ob/gyns, and very good male ob/gyns. I'm fortunate now to have a female ob/gyn who is very good. I wasn't intending to bash males in particular, but the history of western medicine doesn't bear a close examination when looking for equity in care for women and men in studies and practice. To reflect on the hints that this discussion isn't musical and should be conducted elsewhere, I'd be willing to bet that there are songs that reflect this period in women's lives, though possibly through indirect reference or double-entendre if not exactly by name. Anyone know of any? SRS |
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: GUEST,mg Date: 25 Jul 02 - 12:06 AM oh yes..Susan Lewis of Rebel Voices has a great version of "this might be the last time.." mg |
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: Genie Date: 25 Jul 02 - 01:02 AM SRS, ("To reflect on the hints that this discussion isn't musical and should be conducted elsewhere, I'd be willing to bet that there are songs that reflect this period in women's lives, though possibly through indirect reference or double-entendre...")
"We're Having A Heat Wave, (Irving Berlin)
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 25 Jul 02 - 02:48 AM How about "It's Too Darn Hot" (remember Ann Miller singing it in Kiss Me Kate? SRS |
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: GUEST Date: 25 Jul 02 - 08:56 AM Just Amy, can you explain how this thread is male bashing please, because I don't see evidence of any such thing. For women to discuss medical issues related to the ways their particular health needs have been addressed and/or ignored historically: by the historically male dominated medical profession; the historically male dominated pharmaceutical industry; the historically male dominated medical research industry, and; the historically male dominated political system which makes funding decisions which directly effects all of the above, isn't male bashing. It is self preservation. There is a lot of talk surrounding this issue right now because of two factors, neither of which has anything to do with "the most recent study says...": 1) Huge numbers of baby boomer women have entered their menopause years, and we tend to be very vocal about our medical needs in ways no previous generation of women ever has, and; 2) The medical establishment continues to treat the normal aging process in women as a disease state, which makes it a much more lucrative a business for them. The medical establishment continues to push pharaceuticals and surgery as a "normal course of treatment" for women having ANY reproductive health problems after age 25, despite a paucity of good research to back up their claims. Let's not forget, this is the same medical establishment that though thalidomide was a good treatment for morning sickness. But perhaps Just Amy, you are too young to know anything about things like that? I'm curious to know what studies have shown that Scandinavians have a tendency for osteoporosis? I've never heard that, am Scandinavian, and we have no family history of it. We do, however, have a history B vit deficiency, which one of my mother's doctors claims is a so-called tendency among Scandinavians too. |
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: GUEST Date: 25 Jul 02 - 09:10 AM And BTW, the worst doctor I ever had was a woman internist, who tried to force me to have surgery to have benign cysts surgically removed "because whatever they are, they belong in a jar, not your breast." The only option she told me about was surgery, and sent me to a surgeon for the "second opinion" I said I wanted. Amazingly enough, the surgeon, who was not a specialist in breast cancer treatment, but a general surgeon, recommended surgery to remove the cysts. When I refused to follow her orders (because I did research on it for a mother-in-law who has had breast cancer twice), my doctor sent me threatening letters, saying if I didn't do what she said, she would drop me as a patient. Instead, I did what was allowed under my health insurance, which was to seek a legitimate second opinion from one of the breast cancer clinics (I am fortunate to live in a major metro area which has several very good ones). They backed me up, and said not only was surgery NOT the way to go (it causes scar tissues which can be read as false positives on future mammograms), but that my doctor had treated me wrong. She should have immediately ordered ultrasound scans of the breast (she didn't, I had to demand them) first, then a follow up mammogram in 6 months. They didn't even suggest needle aspiration of the cysts, saying they don't often do that anymore because the cysts will usually reduce in size themselves (they are aggravated by fluctuating hormonal levels). Of course, I already knew all that because I've lived with the cysts most of my adult life. I have, needless to say, changed doctors. |
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: GUEST,Stilly River Sage sans a cookie Date: 25 Jul 02 - 01:40 PM GUEST, I'm sure men did the study, so I suppose it must pass muster before you accept the findings, but it is well documented that women from Northern European countries, Scandinavia in particular, are more likely to develop osteoparosis. That doesn't mean that every Scandinavian will develop it. My mother and her oldest sister did, but the middle sister doesn't appear to have. She's also the sister, about age 82 now, who swims and works out regularly. SRS |
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: GUEST,mg Date: 25 Jul 02 - 03:32 PM have Scandinavian women always been prone to it or is this recent with changes in diet, exposure to sun without sunscreen etc....if so, this bad trend could be reversed maybe. mg |
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 25 Jul 02 - 06:51 PM I'd guess diet. Look at the studies in Japan, where when the fish is reduced in the diet heart disease increases. Fish in the diet also adds a lot of calcium. Not all Scandinavians are near water, just as not all Japanese are near water, but the general proximity may account for fish bones building human calcium. SRS |
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: MAG Date: 25 Jul 02 - 10:21 PM I'll kick in a vote for doing your own continuous research and doing what works best for you. Osteoporosis runs in my family, but my heart is strong enough to do marathons.(but I can't ...) I was very active as a younger person, with tennis, basketball, bicycling, and could bench press 100 pounds. (may be why my knees are shot now ...) I'm on estrace, which is synthetic estrogen; I wouldn't take premarin because of the torturing pregnant mares thing. It works to even out severe mood swings which were causing me a lot of trouble. You have to take calcium, AND do weight bearing exercise, AND have a supply of estrogen to be laying down bone. For those of us whose joints are going this can be difficult. I am VERY glad I have great bones from my youth. As far as lyrics go, this one says it all:
How do I know my youth is all spent? As a dear friend for whom the tide is going out said last weekend: If you have lived, you needn't fear death.
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: Gypsy Date: 27 Jul 02 - 08:55 PM "As a dear friend for whom the tide is going out said last weekend: If you have lived, you needn't fear death." I LIKE that one. ALOT! Like the lyrics immediate preceding it, too. |
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Subject: RE: FEMALE BS: quit HRT yet? From: MAG Date: 28 Jul 02 - 01:25 AM The lyrics date, I think, from the Weaver's Reunion. Only Pete Seeger would take bathroom graffiti, craft it into a song (maybe adding a verse or three), and give credit to the People. We've all (well, half of us) seen our share of goofy female MDs. They went to the same med schools, after all (but had to be be twice as good...) Ten years ago one was determined to whack out my uterus, which I did not want to happen for good and sufficient reason. I had several fibroids, one the size of a large baking potato. I did my research, found a good fertility specialist (they are the only ones with lots of experience on fibroids) and two weeks later I had them out. Just the lumps, thank you. The biggie was the easiest to remove as it was on a little stalk, growing into my abdomen. (The first one refused to even check where and what type it was.) rant, rant, rant. We could do horror stories all night, all day. It's late and I think I need to go to bed ... |