BS: Northern Ireland Mess

Subject: BS: Northern Ireland Bloody Mess
From: The Pooka
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 02:20 PM

"The fools, the fools, the fools." - Padraig Pearse

Fundamentally, the Orange rejectionists have brought this to pass; but Sinn Fein/IRA, with their double-gaming bets-hedging, are immorally complicit --and STUPIDLY so, to put the tin hat on it. The GFA is in THEIR political interests, not in the Unionists'.

A plague upon Paisley & Adams both. *All* their paramilitaries need to be disbanded, God damn it. "Gradh mo chroi, I long to see, the Boys of the Old Brigade" -- TOUGH SHIT! Farewell and adieu to 'em. Enough with the George Mitchell stuff already. Disarm the bastards.
Bah.

OK, there, I've said it. I now await McGrath of Harlow's rational balanced perspective & calming wisdom. And others' too of course. Article below. Aplolgies for its length, & my rant.

--Pooka, steamed

Britain to Run Northern Ireland
7:54 AM EDT,October 14, 2002
By SHAWN POGATCHNIK, Associated Press Writer

BELFAST, Northern Ireland -- Britain will strip power from local Catholic and Protestant politicians on Monday night and resume sole responsibility for running Northern Ireland, the British governor announced.

Northern Ireland Secretary John Reid said the order to suspend the authority of Northern Ireland's power-sharing administration and legislature would take effect at midnight (7 p.m. EDT) and last indefinitely.

The prime ministers of Britain and Ireland, Tony Blair and Bertie Ahern, said they were "deeply saddened" by the move. But in a joint statement the premiers said it would prevent the outright collapse of the coalition, which has taken years of negotiations to forge and sustain.

"It is our sincere wish that the Northern Ireland institutions be restored as soon as possible," said Blair and Ahern, whose close cooperation paved the way for the province's Good Friday peace pact of 1998.

Britain has successfully shut down and revived the Catholic-Protestant administration before. But analysts predict this crisis will be the toughest yet to resolve because of rising Protestant hostility to sharing power with Sinn Fein, the Irish Republican Army-linked party that has grown increasingly popular among Catholics, thanks to the peace process.

However, many people on both sides of this still-divided community remain confident that the political crisis won't trigger widespread bloodshed by Northern Ireland's myriad armed groups.

Reid's announcement followed a threat by the major Protestant party, the Ulster Unionists, to withdraw from power-sharing because of alleged IRA spying. First Minister David Trimble, leader of the Ulster Unionists and the local administration, had set Tuesday as a deadline for Britain to intervene.

Trimble wanted Reid to expel Sinn Fein rather than to take power from all four parties in the coalition. Trimble said he accepted Reid's move as "a poor second best," and offered to resume cooperation with Sinn Fein if the IRA disbanded.

Four people, including Sinn Fein's top legislative aide, are behind bars awaiting trial for espionage-related charges following police raids Oct. 4. The suspects are accused of stealing documents from Reid's office that allegedly include details of potential IRA targets and records of talks between Britain and other key parties.

Reid said the accusations against Sinn Fein had damaged Protestant confidence, but kicking out any party now would be premature. He expressed hope that negotiations in coming months would rebuild trust, and allow Britain to restore power to locals before elections to Northern Ireland's legislature in May.

In their joint statement, Blair and Ahern signaled that restoring Ulster Unionist-Sinn Fein relations would require a clear-cut end to IRA activity.

The premiers said Sinn Fein's connections to an illegal underground organization must be "brought to an unambiguous and definitive conclusion."

"It is now essential that the concerns around the commitment to exclusively democratic and nonviolent means are removed. The time has come for people to clearly choose one track or the other," Blair and Ahern said.

The British move meant the Monday afternoon debate inside Northern Ireland's 108-member legislature would be its last for the foreseeable future.

Reid, a Scotsman appointed by Prime Minister Tony Blair in 2000, will oversee Northern Ireland's 12 government departments with help from a beefed-up contingent of four lawmakers from London.

Reid said he planned to consult regularly, starting next week, with the powerless administration's top two figures -- Trimble and the Catholic deputy leader, Social Democratic and Labor Party chief Mark Durkan -- to promote continuity and minimize government disruption.

Monday's suspension of powers was the fourth ordered by Britain since Trimble's coalition took office in December 1999, following a U.S.-brokered compromise. Under that plan, Sinn Fein received two administration posts on condition that the IRA began to disarm. Britain resumed sole control in February 2000, after disarmament officials confirmed that the IRA had yet to get rid of any weapons. Three months later, Britain switched power back to local hands after the IRA pledged to put its stockpiled weaponry "beyond use."

When no disarmament followed, however, Trimble resigned as government leader in July 2001, and vowed not to return until the IRA moved.

Britain used two short suspensions of power to extend the deadline for Trimble's re-election until the IRA secretly scrapped a few arms dumps in October 2001. But the belated IRA move did little to ease opposition to Trimble in the legislature, where Protestant hard-liners came within a few votes of blocking his return to power.

Protestant hostility to Sinn Fein has swelled this year alongside mounting police allegations against the IRA, which is largely observing a 1997 cease-fire but remains active in the most hard-line Catholic areas.

Among the accusations -- all denied by the IRA -- are that the outlawed group stole police documents detailing its informer network; keeps gathering intelligence and training for a potential end to its 1997 cease-fire; kills drug dealers and wounds criminal rivals in its Catholic power bases; and directs mob attacks on police.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Leadfingers
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 02:34 PM

As far as I can see,Ireland in general has been a mess since Cromwell.
And neither side seems to have made any real effort to anything but try to be King of the Castle,as though it was a childs game and not a slightly more serious matter.As someone who was raised a Catholic,
and a Socialist my inclination was toward the Republican viewpoint
until the extremists hijacked the Civil Rights Movement.then I realised that ALL the extremists are just as bad as each other.As
you say ITS A MESS!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 03:05 PM

Two steps forward and one step back, when you're lucky. Sometimes it's the other way round. But in any case, the only thing to do is pick up the cards and start building the cardhouse once again.

I suspect that Gerry Adams has been pushing as hard as possible on the more intractable elements in the IRA to ease up on the peripheral stuff. The main ceasefire has been held, at any rate. The worry now must be that things might happen that make it break down, and no doubt there are people who want that to happen, and can be expected to do things to try and provoke that. (Including "black propaganda" - it's often forgotten that the first use of bombings in Northern Ireland in the Troubles that started in the Sixties was ascribed to the IRA at the time, which had significant consequences, but much later turned out to have definitely been a Loyalist operation.)

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: The Pooka
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 03:20 PM

Thank you Kevin. Knew you'd come through. I feel better already. Really, I do. (Well. Somewhat.)

Yes, and there's even been speculation that "the more intractable elements" might see their way clear to "pushing as hard as possible" back on Gerry, in ways such as to constitute rather a health hazard. Collins y'know. "The 'Staters came to Dublin town equipped with British guns..." and all that shite. Hmmph. / O so it's "the peripheral stuff" izzit!! Collateral damage, begob. / YEAHyeah I know I know...grumblegrumble...I'm gettin' there McG., gimme time...

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Big Tim
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 03:22 PM

Much interesting background in a new book "A secret history of the IRA" by Ed Moloney. Allen Lane, 2002. ISBN 0 71399 665 X. The title should have added "since 1969".

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: The Pooka
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 04:29 PM

Hm. Thanks Tim. Looked it up online; looks excellent. Blurb says Adams a very complex figure. (Rrmmph. Complex *this*. Still simmering down, here...)

Somwhere in the rubble I have an old one, "The Secret Army: A History of the I.R.A., 1916-1970", by J. Bowyer Bell; London: Sphere Books, 1972 -- I had to lookit up too, canna find my copy. Apparently there was an update making it 1916-1979, published 1989 by Poolbeg Press, Dublin. / But as I *recall* (?), the 1916-1970 study was difficult to slog through; dry, not-very-well-written, & biased (pro), not neutral. Folks correct me if I'm wrong on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST,PookaSon
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 02:48 AM

The Pooka's son here, with a new spin on an old tune... a little something I thought up while riding the bus this afternoon in Los Angeles, thinking about the latest depressing turn of events over in the six counties...

Just when peace was in motion
And hopes filled to the brim
Old enmities spoiled everything
And turned the outlook grim
Now Tony's hoisted the Union Jack
For the boys have gone too far
Let's say, "To hell with I.R.A.!
Give Johnson back his car."

Not too uplifting, I know. Let's just hope it's not the last verse!

(Don't get me wrong; I'm no Orangeman. But to the extent that I can claim any sort of opinion on a matter which, frankly, I haven't been following recently as closely as I should, I'm with Dad... uhh, I mean, Pooka... the Republicans are being DUMB!)

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 02:57 AM

blar, blar, blar, why do people like to posting to threads like thid, soon there will be a big argument and every body will fall out and get fed up, always war etc, israel , afganistan , ire land, there is big problums in all them places, and i wish they woulsd sort it out, but there is nothing any of of us here can do anything about it anyway , people will just start arguing. this id my opimiom.john

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: The Pooka
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 09:38 AM

Thank you, Brendan uh I mean PookaSon. Excellent. That's an entirely objective review of course. As a journalism major in the pre-graduation Crunch (O so it's the Senior Slide izzit!! nonono), you are hereby forgiven for not following Norn Iron events 'as closely as you should'. There are other ongoing stories a wee bit more world-shaking. Y'know, 1 or 2 anyway. :) /// Now then: THERE'LL BE NO UPSTAGIN' YER FADDUH AN' INFRINGIN' HIS COPYRIGHT ON TH' RIPPING-OFF & MANGLING OF OULD IRA SONGS FOR TO ADVANCE TH' CAUSE OF PEACE! Yer bigfat GIT!! I'll SUE!!! :) O btw have you decided about Law School yet? Rmmph. Outmaneuvered again.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Big Tim
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 10:10 AM

Go for it Pooka and Son!

Here's another verse for "Ould Ireland's Lament", now officially retitled "Whataboutery".

It's now nine thousand and ninety, the Ould Ozone Layer is no more,
We're all being fried to a frazzle, with skin cancer like never before,
And the message that's sent to the nation, as the last drop of water runs out?
Ould Ieland's Ould Incantation, What About! What About! What About!

(Tune, Men of the West, etc)

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 12:23 PM

Fairly early on in the peace process, there was a bit of stir over Sinn Fein finding the listening devices planted by the British guvmint in their cars, offices, etc.

I don't recall the institutions being suspended over that spying incident "at the highest levels".

This latest slap in the face to the republican community has nothing whatsoever to do with spying. It has very much to do with the British and British leaning politicians being bloody eejits. They don't have the support of the electorate, because they do things like suspending the government, and replacing it with so-called "home rule" (which is nothing more than a euphemism for returning to the pre-GFA British police state).

Sure, this will hurt Sinn Fein in the run up to the spring elections, won't it now?

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: NicoleC
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 01:27 PM

Question for those in Ireland or England -- can we reasonably expect the parties involved to resolve the issue themselves? From this end, it seems like the parities involved are just too close to the issue. Maybe an outside mediator is really needed here?

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 02:41 PM

Who were the crowd running about N.Ireland shooting and blowing the place up? Those republican rascals or just plain murdering terrorists.

If the American government or any government had the ability to bug Bin Ladens car/home whatever and that lead to the prevention of another 911 that would be a good thing. What is any different in bugging one terrorist over another terrorists if it leads to saving lives?

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 03:58 PM

It will not be solved by those outside, but it will not be resolved by one side taking the other for fools.

SF seems to be taking the moral high ground, and not accepting any responsibility,some do not want to say the war is over, which makes the recent intelligence gathering more ominous,if the war is not over then the taking of the political route is another tactic in the armalite bomb and ballot box strategy.

Forget the Paisley crowd they are just bigots who wreck every thing that the big man is not in charge of. Trimble is trying and I think deep down he realises there will be an united Ireland but at what cost.

There lies the problem, many unionist feel they will find a united Ireland a cold place, SF/IRA inability to follow the democratic process goes a long way in making that point. How are people going to make a future in a country governed by those who have tried to blast them off the face of the earth? SF supporters can make the same argument.

For those dedicated to a political solution the answer may be straight forward that is rely on the democratic process. But to those who are fighting their neighbours every night the solution lies in eliminating your opponents.

For the loyalist that means preserving the union as they know that a united Ireland would make them a small entity with regards to an all Ireland. And add to that SF as they boast becomes the largest political party in Ireland, it is not too hard to see why some are worried, pay back time so to speak.

In my opinion SF let us down badly, how is anyone going to sell an united Ireland for all when such activities are going on and that many SF members will not say the war is over. The IRA are not disbanded people would be daft to put their faith in these people in the present climate.

The whole lot relies on mutual trust which is few and far between and when it starts to be built some fool comes along and sets us back to square one. By that I mean fools on both sides who have nothing to offer other than more misery.

I see the suspension of the GFA as a disappointment to many unionist MLA's who saw the process for what it is a chance for politics to talk instead of bombs and bullets. It is a coup to others so no wonder there is confusion, perhaps we need people to bang a few heads together.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Big Tim
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 04:29 PM

Re the suspension of the Assembly: the view I got from a middle class unionist recently in Bangor was that "the Protestants" only accepted the GFA very reluctantly and as time passed came to believe that they had been conned, that "all the concessions went to SF", that every time there is a big negotiation SF MUST get something out of it, that a United Ireland is therefore creeping in by degrees. Another thing that really angered him was Protestant applicants to the PSNI being turned down automatically because they were, I can't remember the precise phrase, but it was something like "unfortunately not a member of the correct religious group". While equalisation, or near equalisation, in the police had to come, many Protestants nevertheless still find such bluntness hard to accept. (SF MLAs speaking Irish in the Assembly was a more minor, but nevertheless real, niggle). What do you think, Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: NicoleC
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 04:46 PM

The reason I ask is because it seemed like real progress was being made while Clinton was so involved in the process -- not necessarily because Clinton was an expert on the subject, but because outside pressure and encouragement were being brought to bear to get both sides talking. When the Bush administration came into office, they disengaged and now it seems like the peace process is falling apart -- the job wasn't quite finished and it was bad to leave it where it was.

Us Yanks are pretty much fond of both sides, and there are so many families with ties to Great Britain it seems like one of the places where we could be sticking our nose in and doing some genuine good.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 05:34 PM

Tim, I understand the anger some people feel considering the police was mainly composed of people from the wider protestant community. This was due to the short sightedness of the RC church,and nat/rep political leaders who advised people not to join the police force.

Also the most important factor the IRA who threatened the families of those who joined the police, they had to move out of their neighbourhood, seen as supporting the British occupation.

But in fairness I have witnessed some very bitter police men who think the only good fienian is a dead fienian, we all have a long way to go and scars to heal.

The daydream of the Patton report has clearly made a mockery of what is trying to be done here with regards to policing. The person on the street did follow their political leaders a bit blindly but in the hope of ending the killing and mayhem, bit like clutching at straws anything to end it.

You have raised a valid point though there is a lot that goes on behind the scenes and when people complain they are labelled GFA wreckers. The people from all sides did agree to giving the GFA a go and as it has been seen that SF came out on the better side of the deal,who can blame them for taking what concessions they could get. I blame them for letting us down and blame the unionists for letting themselves be fooled.

If Paisley and his cronies had taken the positions they were offered, education and health posts then SF would not have had such as big an influence. Paisley took his toys home and huffed, stood back and watched as those who tried to bring lasting peace struggled, mark of a great statesman. Why do that if your serious about ending the troubles?

As for speaking in Irish it is only SF showing their Irishness, do they do it in the Dail, too busy getting on with the running of their country rather than scoring cheap points. But that does not worry me, their private army does though.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 05:56 PM

NicoleC, the influence of American leaders is limited to their usefulness and what concessions one side or the other could get from their support. In other words they were being used.

Bush has seen the need for the GFA suspension and in doing so has inadvertently came down on the side of the anti GFA, that will be seen as a great coup by some unionists. But when the American administration helped bring about the GFA they according to some unionists did not know what they were talking about.

We are too twisted in N.I. both sides are too much alike, I say there will be an United Ireland eventually, that's my opinion, would that be shared by the people in the Irish republic? Would you want to take on N.Ireland and all its problems.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: The Pooka
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 06:51 PM

Big Tim, good verse!! and, good points. / Likewise, Ireland, very informative and though-provoking narrative. Really. Thanks.

But a question - is the *RUC's* historical role as a Protestant police force and defender of the Orange status quo, really "...due to the short sightedness of the RC church,and nat/rep political leaders who advised people not to join the police force"? Wasn't there a lot more to it than just a papist/republican boycott?? (Or, are you speaking only of NI police since the recent "reforms" began?) I'm ill-informed on these policing issues and would welcome education.

NicoleC - actually I've read that Clinton was, while perhaps not "expert", still personally very knowledgeable of NI matters. / Of course the GFA itself *was* the eventual product of outside mediation, wasn't it? It was Clinton's man George Mitchell who mediated, facilitated, chaired, or whatever, the long & excruciating process that paved the way to the Agreement. A good man. Maybe Dubya should call him up now. HA! Yeah I'm just sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: NicoleC
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 07:02 PM

Mitchell has been to Palestine as well. Don't remember at which President's behest... Bush, I think. Unfortunately, his common-sense and balanced recommendations didn't sit too well with extrememists on either side, and so nothing came of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: The Pooka
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 11:59 PM

As I understand it (??) the first phase in the "Mitchell Process" is "confidence-building." Developing ways, small & mundane at first, then incrementally more significant, in which each side can actually begin to trust the other to keep its word. A long and winding road, I'm sure. (And a very Rocky one, if to Dublin. Sorry.) But one which the Northern Irish were able, however begrudgingly, to travel. (Hopefully, they will find their way back it from this latest detour.) / But the Palestinians & Israelis: No. Apparently they will trust each other to kill each other whenever possible, and that's all. / There are various analogies and parallels, imperfect but interesting, between the two situations -- even such that when they began flying the Palestinian flag in the nationalist Belfast Falls Road, the unionist Shankill put up the Israeli white & blue in reply. (And I don't think that was necessarily reflective of Paisley's great love for the Jews either. He's just too busy Kicking the Pope to be bothered with Tel Aviv.) / BUT -- the Middle East conundrum is much worse than Ireland's. There is hatred; but then again, there is ***HATRED***. / Arrrgh. Let us pray.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 12:47 AM

Wel, then. Send in Jimmy!

CB

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 09:00 AM

Pooka, in no way will I say that the RUC was totally innocent, like all police forces it had its fair share of undesirable, just as some police were passing on information the same was being done by gards across the border. But this does not excuse the actions I'm just pointing out when the RUC do it its collusion and the whole British government is implicated not so with the gards.

I believe if the Catholic community had been actively encouraged by their community leaders to join the police from the early years of the troubles it would have been harder for people to claim discrimination based on religion. A mixed patrol would have went a long way towards the prevention of such actions,based on the theory that its hard to pick on a community if your partner is someone from there.

It would also have put an end to the police belonging to one community,and would have kept the distance between the police and orange order as it should be. But as it was the protestant community were the only people who came forward and led many protestants to believe that since it was people from their community who put their live's on the line then it is their police force.

I do not believe that the main reason was to preserve the status quo wrt the union. Some joined for financial reasons and we have to realise this fact also, how many 19 yr olds in N.I. could afford Ford Cosworth (??)or any £15000-£20000 cars in the early 1980's. These people were on a small fortune which I think was more an incentive than preserving the union. This is jealously on my behalf but still a valid point.

The fact remains that when the police had to go against the will of either community they bore the brunt of their anger and when it was against the protestant community they paid a very high price. Many police who lived in protestant areas were burnt out and ostracised by the community they were meant to favour.

Although they felt the hatred from both sides, they are the first to be called upon, first to run towards the bomb blast and the last away from the areas when bombs were left. They cannot be all that bad.

Now many Catholic leaders are recommending that they join the PSNI, to be honest I think it is about time more Catholics should take responsibility for protecting the two communities of N.I. and bring about some normality wrt policing and community relations. People would also see that both sides care enough to do something which would lead to some sort of reconciliation.

SF has not joined the policing board, but stands back and condemns rather than getting involved and changing from within. They have put forward ludicrous ideas such as allowing ex IRA members to join the police. I can see why such initiatives are rejected but SF make an issue out of it.

Many of the ties with the orange order and the police are cut as I'm aware police officers are not allowed to be part of such organisations, this is an attempt to make the police acceptable to all. If that is achieved it weakens SF's stand and if there are more Catholic police it weakens the argument a protestant police for a protestant people.

Having said all this I can understand why Catholic people do not join, the primary worry being the safety of their family. As they come from areas which in all probabilities has a republican factor who would see such action as betrayal of their cause. The detrimental consequences of joining the police would be enough to put people off joining. SF did not worry about the police officer who survived a car bomb. Although the man was a Catholic to SF he was still part of the British establishment. They have not sent the massage that those who do join can do without the fear of reprisal. That is a strong message to the catholic community SF is saying join at your own risk and expect no support from us.

One fact though since the implementing of the Patton agreement and the change of name and uniform etc, which SF supported, many have left the force, this has left the PSNI under staffed and stretched to near breaking. This only benefits those who gain from such predicament the terrorists.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: The Pooka
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 09:33 AM

Thank you again Ireland, very much. I must study this more. You make a lot of sense, soldier.

CB, second the Jimmuh motion. If *anyone* can overcome hatreds, he's yer man. None whatsoever in his heart I believe. / (OK a little Lust maybe, but so what? :)

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Jimmy C
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 12:11 PM

Well,well Ireland, at least I agree with some of your statements. #1 -Paisley is an eejit and so are his followers.

I believe also that more catholics should join the police force, I think the reason they have not is because certain terms were agreed to in the GFA but not yet implemented, none the less I think they should join.

I agree that for 30 years the I.R.A. did a lot of damage, but you must remember they were not the only ones, so do not be putting all the blame on republicans.


When the I.R.A. declared a ceasefire they have really tried to stick to it, in the face of many events designed to make them break. e.g. The I.R.A.ceasefire is still intact, there are loyalist paramilitaries not on ceasefire. The U.D.A. especially is infiltrated at every level by the intelligence servises and the Speeecial Branch, they have been supplied wirh arms and with intelligence, and are attacking nationalist interface areas on an almost nightly basis. Just yesterday a family in Larne were ordered to leave just because the wife is a catholic. In Newington Street in North Belfast a hand grenade was thrown from Tiger's Bay and could have killed quite a few children if it had exploded, and this is only what has happened this week alone.


The I.R.A. established contact with De Chastelaine group and facilitated the inspection by international inspectors of a number of arms dumps on three separate occasions.
The I.R.A. have agreed with the International Inspectors to put arms completely and verifiably beyond use
Large quantities of arms were destroyed in October 2001 ans in April 2002.
In spite of all this certain unionists are still not satisfied and have continued to try to wreck the peace process. It is important to understand that sections of the british military and it;s intelligence agencies are still at war. Always seeking to create tensions divisions and spilits within the republican ranks. Over the past few years we have seen some absurd stories froom ill informed and mischievous sources designed solely to provide opponents to the peace process with excuses to attack republicans. Sections of the british establishment and unionists remain fixated on defeating republicans and defending a failed status quo. It has not worked and the peace process for the most part is still holding, the I.R.A. ceasefire is still intact.


They accused the I.R.A. of breaking into the Castlereagh offices and stealing information that was for the most part public information. Why would they do that ?. What have they to gain from that ?.


This latest thing about spying is a height of hypocrisy, Blair condemning republicans for spying,the same week he is trying to eliminate the Iraq president based on information gained by spying.

The car of both Adams and McGuinness had listening devices installed not so long ago, where was all the hoopla about that. Do you really believe the Unionists are not gathering info on the republicans ?. Do you really believe the authorities are not gathering information on republicans as well, if not then how the hell did they find out that the republicans were doing it if they themselves are not involved in the same activity ?.


The oline is that the british and the unionists don't only want the I.R.A. to give up arms, to disband etc, thye want a total surrender and that is not going to happen, especially when loyalist paramilitaries are armed to the teeth and appear to have a free reign.

Ireland, in all honesty, if you were a loyalist/republican paramilary would you even consider giving up your gun when your enemy lives a few streets away and he still has his ?. It's not going to happen.


What may happen is that moderate catholics will realize that no matter what they do it will never be enough for the unionists and instead of voting for the Alliance party or the S.D.L.P party, they will give their votes to Sinn Fein. In reality this latest endeavour to remove the largest nationalist party from the politics of the six counties could backfire and make Sinn Fein even stronger in the next election./


But I agree - Paisley is a nut case.

Good luck

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Big Mick
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 12:24 PM

Well said, Jimmy. I have purposely avoided posting, waiting for someone like yerself to say what must be said. One of the most troubling aspects of the coverage of the North of Ireland has been the fact that the Unionists continually make the arguement that the IRA must disarm, as if they were the only armed contingent. It implies that the only people in danger of having a violent act committed on them are the Orange/Loyalist/Unionist folks. The simple fact is that virtually every act of violence that has endangered the peace process has come from the paramilitaries that are aligned with and supported by the Unionists and by extension, the British Intelligence (?) community. This whole bit about the spying by the IRA is a red herring. Another of the "tactics of perception" that are being used in the media is to never mention Sinn Fein without mentioning IRA. Yet one almost never sees a mention of the Orange/Protestant/Loyalist/Unionist paramilitaries concurrently with the various parties on that side of the divide. The tactic is called obfuscation. There is a stategy at work that seeks to say something so often that it becomes so. That way the IRA can be blamed, when they have actually made more attempts to make this work than the others.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: weerover
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 02:19 PM

I don't see anyone here saying what to me is fairly obvious. Although there are vast numbers on both (or however many) sides who sincerely believe that theirs is the only tenable position, there are also those who are doing very nicely out of the situation (including financially) and who therefore have a vested interest in prolonging it.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: The Pooka
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 03:07 PM

Since this thread, and this world, imho could use a little anarchic humor in these dark days (as opposed to all the anarchic *actions* bringing the darkness on), I share the following from "The Onion" – forwarded to me by my darling PookaSon from the salt-mines of academe (LOL!) in far Califor-nye-ay. / The superfluous whack-fol-the-diddles following the Onion news bulletin are, of course, mine own.
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Defense Department Typo Results In U.S. Attack On Ira

ARLINGTON, VA — The U.S. Defense Department apologized to Skokie, IL,
dentist Ira Nussbaum Tuesday following a bombing campaign aimed at
removing the 37-year-old from power.

"Apparently, the intelligence source who drafted the attack plan against Iraq failed to strike the 'Q' key hard enough," Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said. "The 'Q' was always a little stubborn on that keyboard. Sorry."

This marks the first military action taken against Nussbaum since a malfunctioning shift key prompted Ulster Unionists to detonate his Ford Taurus in 1998.

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"Tell her how the I-r-a
Had to run like hell, oy veh!.."
--from "Come Out Ye Blackened Hams", official song of the Sein-Finn Multidenominational Party; recorded by The Wolfblitzers on their album "Hebron, Baghdad, Pork or Donegal"

>> OK. Hope yez liked it. Now, back to the serious discussions.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 03:20 PM

Jimmy, the IRA ceasefire has been breached it is a well accepted fact,and all the rhetoric will not change that. So we get into the whataboutery, if you read my posts you will find I have no time for any terrorist.

You make wild accusations about the special branch, why would anyone want to go back to pre GFA and live under the constant threat of terrorism. Police having to keep up their personal security routines etc, no one wants to live like that again. SF/IRA need a reason for their existence what better way than to make wild claims and put it across they are here to protect their community. Why have people been thrown out off Ireland and cannot come back for fear of their life, who enforces that the IRA. Indefensible and be we get whataboutery yes the loyalist crowd do it too, and that does not make it right. It just enforces that terrorists are parasites on their communities.

Who shot the person in Belfast (2000) when a dispute arose within the republican circles, the IRA are blamed while you say they were on ceasefire.

The common factor here is the use of terrorism, these people are preying on their own community and have done so since 1969, what has happened to the people who were shot as informers and ask who was the person in command of the IRA at that time. Did they have the legal right to take a mother from her children murder her and dispose of her body with impunity.

Terrorists take their lead from the fools who support them and with your posting above I draw the conclusion that you and Mick support the taking away and murdering of mothers, sons, daughters and fathers, I certainly do not that is why I call all terrorists scum.

We do not know how many arms were put beyond use, the IRA could destroy all the lee enfields they have but that is no use if they bring in armalites through the back door. And yes the other crowd is at it too still does not make it right. Many unionists did respond well to the destroying of weapons but that's a positive point best left out to make a spurious argument.

The Castlereagh break in was not as trivial as you suggest, one paper today reports that £30 million was spent rehousing the police officers whose details were on that list. So it was seen as a considerable threat and acted upon. £30 million that could have been used elsewhere.

You are glossing over the fact that Adams and his ilk were in the IRA and any intelligence gathered from the devices that led to saving lives is well worth it. Or are you suggesting Adams knows nothing considering his illustrious past as a commander in Belfast. The lives saved would be from both communities. And you complain about that what is your problem in trying to save lives, you seem happy enough with the IRA gathering intelligence to take lives and terrorise people.

Remember Omagh carried out by a break away group of the IRA and to break away you have to be part of it in the first place. Would you complain if the bugging devices led to foiling that example of republicans protecting their community?

The British do not want a total capitulation of the IRA or they would not have entered into the GFA and ignored the complaints of unionist about the IRA. What is being asked of SF/IRA is for them to stick to the spirit of the agreement and having the details of all the members of the prison service is not going to be used as a Christmas card list now is it.

I take your point on handing over weapons and so does the British government I suspect, but only on the condition that preparations are not made for them to be used. The gathering of intelligence suggest that the weapons will be used if only as a method to threaten or terrorise people. No one needs weapons who are committed to a democratic process, no one needs to know the details of the security forces if they are committed to a democratic process, to have such items suggests they are not.

Your prediction on the actions of the moderate catholic in my opinion is way off, many are prepared to let democracy work and a surprise to me is some do not want a united Ireland they would loose too much. Others do not want to be under the influence of the Catholic Church and have turned away from that and republican cause. I really get my eyes opened when I talk to university students who think for themselves. But to counter that there are the dyed in the wool republicans who have the rhetoric that others reject.

N.I. is not straight forward those who you think would support whatever because of their religion or back ground do not always adhere to the stereo type. Some students from the republic do not want any thing to do with N.I. too much hassle, some think they do not know when they are well off, with respect to many social issues. So the threat that all Catholics will vote SF is an empty one.

Lets not forget that SF is not wanted in any form in the republic when they have a private army, but you seem to ignore that fact, it proves that SF/IRA are not as popular as they think among right thinking people.

You will not get me to defend any terrorist should they be from the orange or the green, they and their supporters are doing nothing but keeping Ireland in turmoil.

The police needs support from both communities, catholic members policing their areas and protestant their areas is not the way to go,they need to be accepted by all, it will be one step closer to getting to a normal society.

The most important message I get from many SF members is their refusal to say the war is over, which make their retaining arms a worry. The fact that SF does not ask people to come forward to support the police with information is another concern are they afraid of reprisals or seen as a threat from their former comrades in arms. But saying all that Adams has my respect he is trying and I do recognise that he is walking a tight rope between keeping the radicals happy and trying to keep the unionists happy too.

Attack the orange order, loyalist, unionists all you want I have no time for them, what I do have time for is those who look at the situation honestly and do not get involved in the old rhetoric that is employed to keep the mess in N.I. going.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 04:11 PM

"Just yesterday a family in Larne were ordered to leave just because the wife is a catholic. In Newington Street in North Belfast a hand grenade was thrown from Tiger's Bay and could have killed quite a few children if it had exploded, and this is only what has happened this week alone."

The lady was on the news she believes it is because her boyfriend is protestant, and will not give in to any terrorists, brave woman in my opinion.

No defence for the hand grenade, no side should have them.

What I will say though many want people to understand the SF situation but will not do the same for unionist politicians, even those who do not want the loyalist groups to be there or armed. Many have called for the various groups to disarm a point that is left out, why do that to make your argument JimmyC? How are people going to move forward when they play down the efforts of others.

Trimble and Durkin are not ex terrorists, Durkin cannot be considered as having the army or police as a private army like the IRA. To make such assertions is just as spurious as saying the army and police are Trimble's private army.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Jimmy C
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 05:58 PM

The lady in the news said it was because she was a catholic and her boyfriend was a protestant, they are living in a loyalist estate, so who do you think tried to get them out ?. I do not agree with any terrorist activity either, but don't expect one side to bear the blunt of the blame and don't go harping on about the catholic church running the place and all that bullshit, that may have happened years ago in the republic , it is not the case today, do you really believe that "TERRORISTS" are going to be swayed by something a bishop or priests tells them ?. My argument is very precise, that is, that many of the unionists never wanted power sharing or the GFA in the first place and they have been doing their best to wreck it since day one. Durkin and Trimble are not ex-terrorists, well where is the evidence that Adams is, and I don't mean innuendos, I mean real proof. It does not exist otherwise Trimble would have been able to show it. Just because someone is a member of Sinn Fein does not mean he was ever even a member of the I.R.A. let alone been a terrorist. Martin mcGuinness may have been member of the I.R.A. but people have the right to defend themselves and the people in Derry needed defending, the bloody police weren't going to do it, neither were the army so what were they to do,   stay home and keep quiet like they had done for nearly 50 years ?.
The U.D.A., the U.V.F and other groups are just as private , and they would be used by Paisley, Trimble and others except that the I.R.A. are there to oppose them. I believe that the I.R.A. cannot survive without the support of a large number of the nationalist community and by the same token neither can the loyalists groups, so enough of the private army garbage, I have said it before and I will say it again, if it had not been for the actions(or inaction) of the police, the british army coupled with the threat from loyalists squads there would have been no need for the I.R.A. in the first place. This all started with a march by students demanding civil rights and we know by the newsreels exactly how the police responded.
Calling for loyalists groups to disarm is not the same as demanding the nationalists groups disarm. Time is on the side of the nationalists, all they have to do is keep the peace and they will be the majority very soon, so why would they want to upset the applecart. ?.
This is all a case of politicians stirring the pot for their own polital agendas, they may as well get it into their heads that the old status and institutions of the state will never return. Those days are dead and gone,. They are not doing the loyalist community any favours by not peacefully working towards the new Ireland no matter what form it will take, whether as part of a united Ireland or as a separate democratically run state. They are leaving a legacy of bitterness and hatred and they should be ashamed of themselves. Bloody hypocrites , all of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 06:34 PM

Of course the war is over, whatever the metaphysical tangles some politicians might have about actually saying that. For the thirty years of the Troubles you had a similar kind of hang-up with another set of politicians who would always deny that what was happening was a war, and that didn't help either.

But the end of a war doesn't rule out the possibility of renewed fighting. If, God Forbid, the imperfect peace breaks own, and things descend into fighting again, maybe they'll call it a continuation of the old war, or maybe they'll call it a new war. It doesn't seem too important.

If the assumption is that a disarmed and disbanded IRA would mean that there could be no possibility of a new war, that's not how it works. The Official IRA, as it became called, had disarmed and effectively disbanded, and that didn't stop the Provos emerging. I think it could well be argued that the continued existence of the existing IRA provides some safeguard against the same kind of thing happening with the Real IRA or whatever, for example by keeping control of people who might make that possible.

I'm not arguing that because I haven't got the facts. I mention it as an example of the kind of complexity that can lie below the surface. The important thing isn't to win arguments and chalk up symbolic victories, its to keep the peace as well as it can be kept, in the hope that the longer it can be kept the better the stronger it will become. The politics above that is largely a matter of treading water.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 07:38 PM

Ireland, I don't know what your personal Irish agenda is here at Mudcat, but upon your reviewing your contributions here since 06 Oct, I believe you've got one.

The war may or may not be over. No Protestant paramilitaries have put one single weapon beyond use. Not one. The British security forces still control certain so-called "no go" areas, and the British government has just suspended the democratic institutions for the 4th time.

Very little of the above can actually be attributed to the IRA, much less Sinn Fein, but that doesn't stop the British/Irish/American propaganda machines from churning out bullshit reports of how the latest "crisis" in in the peace process is due to IRA intransignece. That has ALWAYS been the reason given for caving in to the Unionists' threats to withdraw from the so-called "democratic institutions".

What the hell is democratic about suspending the governing institutions in what is supposed to be a democratic process here? What is so democratic about not allowing the electorate to be ruled by the people they voted to have rule them?

The GFA is a sham. Four times Trimble has demanded the Brits "do something" and four times the GFA has been thrown out the window by the British government. Not exactly what one could call "confidence building" for anyone except the Unionists.

What we are seeing is that the Unionists and their British government allies never had any intention of allowing democratic reforms to take hold through the political process or by any other peaceful means. The Unionists were never supposed to get something out of the democratic reforms needed to create a just and equitable society in Northern Ireland--they were supposed to give up power to achieve that goal.

Which proves the point that many in the republican community have been saying all along--the Unionists are not interested in power sharing, and their claim that they were interested parties to the GFA has been a total sham. They want to keep power for themselves, as well as keep the republican and nationalist communities on their knees. THAT is what the British government has done with this suspension of the GFA institutions. They can't just keep breaking the fragile trust with the republican and nationalist communities with impunity either.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 07:54 PM

Adams has admitted his role in the IRA did you happen to miss it JimmyC. Take the rosy glasses of and see terrorism for what it is, how were the IRA protecting people when they take them away from their families murder them and leave the children orphans, but we'll skip over that to keep the IRA in the role of the romantic defender.

Your arguments are based on unfounded republican rhetoric which is far from precise. Precise is saying McGuiness was the commander of the IRA in Derry it took him long enough to admit it but he did no maybe there.

The marches you refer to had catholic and protestants leaving that fact out gives more strength to your misleading argument why do that? Not being precise here are you.

My issue with the Catholic church is not in the context you choose to read into my posts, the church and leaders of the catholic community actively discouraged people from joining the police coupled with the threat from the IRA it took a brave catholic to join. This is a recognised fact, we would have had the police force we now need if it was not for such interventions, something we all have to live with. Patton's recommendation's come along and all of a sudden it a good idea.

How many young Catholics have turned away from the church, they do not want to know, that is not an attack on the church it is stating a fact. The church admits it has that problem.

How many times do you have to be told a terrorist is a terrorist orange or green I have no time for them or anyone who supports them because in doing so they agree with their actions, it is that which gives them the mandate to do what they do.

You give the reason that someone had to defend their community, the IRA opened the door to the UDA and set the ball running proving two wrongs do not make a right. No matter how passionate your arguments are they still are based on the flaw that terrorists have place in the world they simply do not.

Why not address the issue that the leader of the country they want to be united with has no time for SF/IRA cannot blame the British here.

I will say this we all went down the wrong road, we need to go forward and improve on our mistakes but to do that everyone has to admit their failings. That is something many from both sides will not do they try to justify themselves with the whataboutery arguments.

But you have to recognise the fact that all rep/nat terrorists no matter who they are stem from the IRA. CIRA RIRA as I said they have to be part off it to break away from it. If the Omagh bomb had brought about a united Ireland it would have done nat/rep a favour so just as you assert the loyalist crowd are one so are the various rep/nat terrorist one as they have the same aim.

To expand on that if the IRA passed on the information they stole to the RIRA which resulted in deaths of security force members would the IRA admit their involvement or say nothing to do with us. You will never convince me that there are no connections between the two and never get me to give the IRA the benefit of doubt.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 08:09 PM

You know what Ireland--Nelson Mandela was once a terrorist too. To suggest that Adams and McGuiness' IRA membership should preclude their participation in a post-war democracy is sheer idiocy. They have every right to be where they are, because they have proved for the better part of the past decade that they are not shooting at or blowing up anyone. They are working through the democratic political process, and have been for many years.

Spying is something both sides are going to continue doing until there is no more reason for the sides to mistrust one another. That hasn't happened, and it won't happen until and unless the British government forces the Unionists to walk out, and continues the institutions without them. They've got to do it, and do it now, or all the work of the past decade will be for naught, just as happened in between the Palestinians and Israelis, when Israel refused to give up power and control over the West Bank and Gaza as they agreed to do.

This Britspeak of "once a terrorist, always a terrorist" is bullshit, and incredibly dangerous brinkmanship in this day and age. There is no telling now how much damage the Unionists and the British government has now done to the peace process. But sitting on the republican/nationalist side of the fence as I am, I really don't see how they are going to be able to put any of the GFA back together any time soon. The republican and nationalist youth are totally cynical about the political "democratic" process now. And these are young people who didn't come of age during the violence, who are clearly questioning why the republican leadership ever bothered to try negotiating a peace settlement with the Brits to begin with. What incentive have they got for carrying the peace torch?

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 08:41 PM

So what do they do Guest go down the terrorist route there are as many loyalists of the same opinion de we let them fight it out or admit that terrorism is not the answer. The threat of do what we want or we'll go back to violence makes my case terrorists are terrorist brit speak or not.

SF needs to prove that is not the way and do what the Irish politicians want, get rid of the private army. Or will they be used in the event of a united Ireland when SF do not get their way. Or maybe bring in the republican national youth you threaten N.I with.

You have not paid much attention to what I have posted if you come to the conclusion that I advocate this. " To suggest that Adams and McGuiness' IRA membership should preclude their participation in a post-war democracy is sheer idiocy"

I see it has led to jump to the old prejudices which has led to your inaccurate conclusions. I for one am in favour of a united Ireland but not at any cost. I have no time for terrorists or those who support them or excuse their existence. Mandella condemned his terrorist past cut off all ties to that past and recognised that path was wrong.

Your defending spying is way off the mark,you know my views on that if you have read my posts.

Your parallels with the Israeli and Palestinian has one flaw, SF got what they wanted, they got into government, they were doing good, but they slipped up. As you say Israel did not give back the Gazza and West bank, what you do not mention is the use of terrorists which has not improved the situation it has inflamed it. This shows terrorism does not work on any level as people will dig their heels in which results in going nowhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 09:14 PM

Since nothing else has worked, there is one last desperate measure that has yet to be tried.

Import every radical Islmao fascist Al-Qida terrorist we can lay our hands on - to Ireland.

Uniting against a group that has taken religious vows to kill you can make fox hole friends in a hurry.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: The Pooka
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 11:03 PM

Well, so much for the moment of comic relief (see far above). Oh well, I *did* say 'Now back to the serious business.'

Donuel, not a bad idea there. :) Pretty good. I *ALMOST* wish it could be implemented. Indeed the Common Enemy can unite erstwhile foes: foxhole friends, as you say. (From the movie "Oh What A Lovely War", circa 1968: "Who's that singin'?" "Aaah some Welsh bastard over in the next trench.") But, first we'll have to convince Yomama Osama (he's alive, y'know) that Norn Iron is important enough to attack. Thus far he seems to be rather more fixated on us over here in Far Americay. (To include our extended Empire of course.)

GUEST, you have strong opinions & knowledge and experience to back them. Since you been examining his past posts, why don't you take a leaf from Ireland's book, and join up? Nonono, I don't mean with the British Army ("Too ra loo ra loo ra loo, they're lookin' for monkeys up at the zoo...":). I mean, the Mudcat. Give yerself a name for us, as Ireland did. / You could be Bold Fenian Man. Just a thought.

"May the Lord have mercy upon Belfast."

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 12:54 AM

Considering one side fly the flag of Israel and the other the Palestinian flag Donuel, sending in every radical Islmao fascist Al-Qida terrorist we can lay our hands on, would only add to the divide.

Nice try though. And like Bin laden the IRA haven't gone away you know.

It is now one year since the Good Friday Agreement was concluded. Last May it was emphatically endorsed by the people, North and South, and as such it now represents their democratic will.

This somehow does not uphold the assertions made that unionists did not want the GFA to work.

Try this link it may put the unionist views into some perspective and show that the problems of the GFA lie with both sides.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/309812.stm

The unionists have been waiting since 1999 for the disbandment of the IRA here is some of the declaration :

Numerous prisoners, in both jurisdictions, have benefited from mechanisms providing for their accelerated release.

Against this background there is agreement among all parties that decommissioning is not a precondition but is an obligation deriving from their commitment in the Agreement, and that it should take place within the time-scale envisaged in the Agreement, and through the efforts of the Independent International Commission on Decommissioning.

Sinn Fein have acknowledged these obligations but are unable to indicate the time scale on which decommissioning will begin. They do not regard the Agreement as imposing any requirement to make a start before the establishment of the new institutions. The UUP do not wish to move to the establishment of the new institutions without some evident progress with decommissioning.

The lack of urgency by SF to get the IRA to disband as per obligation above led to the suspension of the GFA, as SF got many concessions from the GFA it is within reason that SF/IRA gave some themselves.

Trimble did acknowledge the decomissioning of weapons as a good response which gave credence to the GFA and kept the ant-GFA unionist at bay. In other words he wanted the GFA to work and still does.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 12:56 AM

Pooka I did appreciate the comic relief, I'm sorry I should have aknowledged it.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 01:37 AM

When I was younger I used to believe that religious fanatics were so because they were, in fact, not completely convinced that what they professed to believe was true.

Then I graduated to thinking that belief is the haven of those who simply can't KNOW.

Now I figure they're just using religion to further crass ends, like putting money in their pockets, or getting their followers to buy them a 30 room mansion.

I have my doubts about the existance of God now, because if there IS a God, human beings deserve to be eradicated from His universe, and He ain't doing it. Maybe later!?

CB

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 10:40 AM

Mandela has never denounced his past, or his associations with the ANC. In fact, he has done the exact opposite--quite stubbornly.

Mandela also infuriated many Irish and British citizens when he, on a visit to Ireland, not only refused to denounce the IRA, but referred to them as some of the very few Europeans who were allies of the ANC and stood fast by the ANC while they fought their war against apartheid and the Afrikaaner government.

Ireland, your supposed rational arguments might work if only for one thing--the British government is still an occupying force in Ireland, and home rule/unionist rule has always been corrupt, repressive, and unjust.

Now, it is plain that you will continue to view the war in Ireland as simple, isolated acts of terrorism. That is very convenient for those who don't wish to acknowledge that no country on this planet has managed to rid themselves of a colonial occupying force without the use of warfare--what you call "terrorist violence", without making any acknowledgement whatsoever of the violence perpetrated by the state militias/security forces in places like Ireland and the West Bank, and as it was once perpetrated by the state in South Africa. There is nothing romantic about that reality. Not one bloody romantic thing.

It is the nationalist and republican communities that now stand to lose everything they gained, not the unionists. The 6 counties were functioning as well as any other democratic European state up until the suspension of the instititutions. Everyone knows full well that the IRA isn't interfering with the functioning of the institutions, and that the unionists are not only interferring, but trying to destroy them.

So which is the greater threat to a fragile peace? Guns which have remained silent for the better part of eight years, or politicians trying to nuke the peace process to protect their own turf and power?

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Jimmy C
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 10:55 AM

Ireland, you posted that
"It is now one year since the Good Friday Agreement was concluded. Last May it was emphatically endorsed by the people, North and South, and as such it now represents their democratic will."
Part of the problem is that the agreement was signed in good faith, but there are parts of it yet to be implemented, especially in Police Reform, Demilitarization etc. Implement the full agreement first and then Sinn Fein will have nothing to complain about. The major stumbling block to I.R.A. disbanding is the existence of loyalists groups such as the U.D.A./ U.F.F/ U.V.F etc. Unionist politicians such as Trimble, Paisley and their ilk are all very vocal to condemn violence but not one of them has singled out and actually named loyalist groups, it's all been motherhood statements, such as " violence has no part in our society and I call on Sinn Fein/I.R.A. to disarm and disband etc". Trimble knows full well that if he were to say openly " I call on the I.R.A. the U.D.A, the U.V.F. etc to disband, he would not be reelected. Remember he came up through the unionist ranks as a member of the Vanguard movement, hard line unionists,, the leopard does not change his spots. Paisley we know about, he is so anti-cathoic that he is comical.
For the good of the six counties let the GFA be FULLY IMPLEMENTED and then let unionists, nationalists, british government etc demand the disbanding and disarming of ALL groups. It's not going to work by singleing out just one. Let all parts of the GFA be implemented and then they will be in a position to challenge those who still hold back. Try working together with Sinn Fein and then progress can be made. It is very clear that many unionists were against power sharing from the start and heve done nothing but try to wreck the agreement since the first day it was signed.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST,Den
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 11:15 AM

Well said jimmy and Guest above. You know its laughable to read the musings of all the pseudo intellects around here. Clapping each other on the back for another fine observation on the goings on in the wee six counties of Ireland. Oh they're in such a mess, sure they can't help themselves you know and we're so superior sitting here at our safe distance with all the solutions (no doubt) to all the problems. Fuck off! Let me tell you something Pookie you think we're in a mess. Well if your president has his way you ain't seen mess. So brother try looking for the plank in your own eye. Oh and Ireland, the voice of reason, the experienced soldier. Were you a Brittish soldier by any chance? If so, how could you have an objective view? Your job was to occupy and maintain the Status Quo. A protestant parliament for a protestant people, isn't that the way it went Ireland? So most of the views and observations expressed here are based on what exactly. Hearsay, or that paragon of truth the good old Brittish media. Did any of you live in Ballymurphy or Ardoyne? How about Tiger Bay? Were you there Ireland. When the Brits allowed gangs of loyalists and the RUC to burn catholics out of their homes. Have any of you lived in N.Ireland? Do any of you know what its like to be a second class citizen in your own country. No I don't think so. Bottom line is the current crop of Unionists don't want, never wanted power sharing. Its been one thing after another to disrupt the process sice day one. Now they want the IRA to disband. Right that would take us back to 1969.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Jimmy C
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 11:16 AM

Ireland - I forgot about this part.

"The marches you refer to had catholic and protestants leaving that fact out gives more strength to your misleading argument why do that? Not being precise here are you."


if you read my post correcetly you will notice that I said students , (not catholic students - just students). My point was how the police responded that day. They attacked with batons, all captured on camera. Also you failed to mention that there were gangs of loyalists waiting in ambush for the marchers also, and the police did nothing to disperse them. These types of things have been happening for years and still happen today. Example, last May while home in North Belfast, I was coming along the Limestone road, after a nice pint in a pub on the corner of Antrim Road and Limestone road. I was the only person around, all of a sudden a gang of about thirty youth came out from the Tiger Bay area , all throwing bottles, stones etc into the catholic Newington area. In a short time catholics were out and the 2 parties faced off, shouting abuse and throwing stones. The police came and formed a line between them but they all faced the cathoics, with batons drawn and with anti-riot gas at the ready. They did not have to use it, but the point is they faced the catholics who did not start the trouble, in the meantime the loyalist continued to throw missiles over the heads of the police and not one policeman turned around to face them. I could not believe it, I was there and witnessed this myself. It is happening every night there is any trouble, I know catholics are the instigators at times, but the police by their action demonstrate time and time again that many of their members are not impartial.
Implement the GFA in FULL and then Sinn Fein will have nothing to complain about, any objections by unionists to the full implementation will only prove that many of them are against it come what may.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST,Ard Mhacha
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 03:02 PM

Jimmy C, and Den, I also live here and nothing has changed, I was told by a Protestant business man that "you Catholics don`t come close when it comes to bigotry, it is bred in the young Orangemen from birth".
After the Holy Cross School episode, {which was never once condemned by Paisley} how can "Ireland" and his side-kick Tim make out a case for the Unionists, and Pooka any country that elects the likes of Reagan and Bush should save their meanderings for the nuts in the good old US. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 04:21 PM

Remember he came up through the unionist ranks as a member of the Vanguard movement, hard line unionists,, the leopard does not change his spots.

You have said it all JimmyC, what makes you think SF is any different.

"This all started with a march by students demanding civil rights and we know by the newsreels exactly how the police responded." I saw no need to elaborate on this as you pointed out we all know what happened.

There is no excuse or defence for what happened to you, if you think that as a "unionist" I intrinsically support the action of that scum your wrong. They like all terrorists have nothing to offer except pain and division, we do not need them. I was put in a wheelchair by the actions of the IRA, but I still recognise that SF has a lot to offer, was showing the way in many respects and had my support,I am in favour of a united Ireland,but not at any cost especially if that entails the gathering of intelligence by any terrorist group.

You have to recognise that unionists see the IRA as a threat and you cannot dismiss their fears as wanting to wreck the GFA, they did sign up to it no getting away from that fact. The rhetoric that unionists did not want the GFA in the first place does nothing but bolster the anti agreement people, it is also a crass way of diverting the blame from those who were gathering intelligence. Bit like saying I don't know what they are yapping about they did not want the agreement in the first place.

If SF cannot admit that the actions were wrong what are they going to be like if they get real political power, arrogance springs to mind, and we all know that it was the arrogance of the old unionist crowd the brought about the troubles in the first place.

Do you have any concern for the security force members whose details were in the hands of terrorist simple yes or no would suffice.

Your under the impression that by condemning the short sightedness of those in the past who advised people not to be part of policing their community that I put the blame on Catholics, I do not never will and do not condone those who do. We all have to take our fair share of the blame, those who got actively involved in the past and those who sat on their hands doing nothing. The so called silent majority who benefited from others efforts to bring about peace.

My posts are borne out of frustration and disappointment, I had a lot of faith in SF and still believe they have much to offer. If the IRA were to stand down, with the understanding it has the right to take up arms if the loyalist terrorist take advantage of their absence then the onus of the peace process would be squarely on the loyalist.

Simply if there is no IRA why should there be any loyalist equivalent they feed of each other, some one has to break the cycle.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 04:33 PM

Ard, were do you get the idea that I am making a case for the unionist, you are displaying the same prejudices that you condemn in others. What are you saying the rep/nat community has no examples of such inbred bigotry, your the example there is. I may be seen as a unionist that does not mean I'm in the OO.

Get stuck into the orange men all you want I have no time for them same for Paisley and any other crowd who display prejudice and bigotry.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 05:13 PM

Put in a wheelchair by the IRA?

God, the level some people will stoop to win an argument on the internet.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 05:23 PM

And Ireland also says:

"Do you have any concern for the security force members whose details were in the hands of terrorist simple yes or no would suffice."

My answer is no, I have no more concern for a member of the security forces than anyone else involved on any side. A human life is a human life, and the life a security forces member is no more sacred than Gerry Adams' life.

Ireland also gave us this sorry, lame ass Britspeak propagandist line too:

"You have to recognise that unionists see the IRA as a threat..."

I think that fact is well recognized, but it is no reason to wreck the peace process over...

And then Ireland continued on with this:

"...and you cannot dismiss their fears as wanting to wreck the GFA..."

Oh yes we can, and have. And will continue to do, because we aren't about to let them wreck the only chance at peace Ireland has had in a hundred years.

The IRA is doing nothing wrong by spying on the Brits and the Unionists. It is still a case of security for the republican and nationalist communities, just as it is for the securocrats in Ireland and Britain to be spying on them as well. It is idiotic to think that the IRA is going to stop when there has been no progress on demilitarization from anyone but themselves. Absolutely idiotic, and people everywhere else in the world know it too, once you point out the illogic and irrationality of the British and Unionist propagandists.

I trust Sinn Fein, once entrusted with true political power, will become every bit as arrogant and mad as any other politicians anywhere in the world. But it doesn't mean they will retaliate in vengeance mode against the unionist and loyalist communities. Those days are, if we all do the job right this time, long behind us.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 05:35 PM

One final thing...the (mostly Scots Irish Americans--an irony which never fails to escape notice of some of us) Southern segregationists were ideological brethren to today's Orange Order in the UK. They too were afraid to desegregate. They too said "not one inch" and "never surrender" and all those absolutist terms. They too believed the backlash against them for decades of lynchings, etc would be substantial. They too had their Ian Paisleys and their David Trimbles (ie George Wallace, Lester Maddox, etc). But yet, we know just how wrong they were about everything, just as the unionists and loyalists are now. First the American abolitionists, and then the desegregationists DID change and transform a much larger nation, the United States, and end slavery and segregation in the US once and for all.

Ireland will do it too, but it won't happen, like I said, until the British government allows the unionists and loyalists to walk out, and continues the institutions without them.   THAT is when the true, meaningful change will happen in Northern Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 05:40 PM

Actually Ireland, I do have one more final word. You look to me like a fuckin' troll.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 06:03 PM

Guest there is no argument to win, my point is I have enough to be bitter about to keep the old prejudices going, I have recognised that SF has a lot to offer in doing so I hold no bitterness, I see their worth you seem to have a problem in recognising that.

I cannot say the same for you, as you see no good in the unionists to the extent your telling those who support the GFA they don't and all the blame lies with them.

If the IRA are as acceptable as you make them out to be then in your opinion the world leaders who see the IRA as terrorists are out of step with your views, total arrogance. The Irish premier does not want SF with an illegal organisation tagged to it, the unionists and the British government have so far tolerated the IRA SF link.

The fact remains that the IRA is a terrorist organisation it fulfills the internationally recognised definition on terrorism, and if SF wants to be involved in any democratic process it has to recognise that fact.

Just because you recognise their spying as being in the interest of nat/rep community does not explain what use the details of 2000 prison officers are to that community.

I'll tell you the use, if the licence of the released nat/rep terrorists are revoked. The IRA have the details of each and every prison officer that they will use to threaten the prison staff, if you have read my posts you will know the scenario of how such info would be used.

This is why the intelligence gathering was illegal it is of use to terrorist and in that context you cannot complain if people object. The IRA were covering their back and got caught doing so, they were displaying a lack of commitment and to use the rhetoric about unionists using it to wreck the agreement does not negate the responsibility that the IRA has in this mess.

What SF is trying to do is convince nat/rep that all the blame lies on the unionists, because they are afraid of losing their support and as you put it "It is the nationalist and republican communities that now stand to lose everything they gained, not the unionists." SF/IRA do not want to be held responsible for that so they blame everyone else except those who are at fault themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 06:11 PM

Your a big man guest, you miss the point totally, thanks to SF/IRA we are now left with the possibility that Paisley's crowd and the anti-GFA crowd can get their foot in the door. And that does us no favours at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Jimmy C
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 08:40 PM

Ireland, I fully understand your point of view but lets be honest, if it was not for the spy thing it would have something else. Many unionists will go to no limit to scuttle the GFA, the spying just gave them an excuse. What excuse are they going to use when it is realized that all parties gather intelligence. The nationalists have a lot to lose granted, such as basic civil rights often referred to by unionists as concessions.
There is a link between I.R.A. and Sinn Fein but there is also many links between all unionists parties, police and loyalist paramiliotaries, it just not admitted and the institutions are not going to divulge the set up at any cost,there has got to be otherwise people like Adair, and the Egyptian would have been locked up long ago on drug charges alone, not to mentiion paramilitary activity.
I for one am not concerned about the police force either, they, their fathers and grandfathers helped create and maintain the system with all it's inbred bigotry and hatred and with all of it's other faults. They have done nothing in their entire history to endear themselves to the nationalist community, the majority of them wore police uniforms while at work, and then wore orange sashes when not at work. and as such are a major part of the whole problem

I am truly sorry about the wheel chair, I really am believe ,and I am not trying to be glib in saying that my sister, my brother-in-law , four fairly close friends and one really close friend are all in Milltown cemetery. Another family member is blind for life thanks to a rubber bullet. I hope you believe me when I say I am truly sorry.

Good luck.

Jimmy

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 09:19 PM

A united Ireland is going to have to include people of both traditions. For people who reject a united Ireland there's nothing contradictory about being bigoted and not trying to understand the problems and difficulties of the other side. But for those who believe in it there is never any justification for doing that, no matter what the provocation.

"Ireland" (that's the Mudcatter, not the country - it could be a confusing pseudonym is a thread like this) is trying to do that, and that deserves respect, even from those who might disagree with him on a few matters. He's a wise man to refuse to rise to the troll-poster's rhetoric.

The central thing, as I see, it is that so long as people feel threatened, and unwilling to trust the representatives of the state to protect them, it is impossible for the paramilitaries to cease to exist. If the existing organisation disbanded, a new one would rapidly appear, and the situation would be a lot worse. The whole logic of the peace process, whether this was openly admitted or not, was that with the end of the fear of the other side, the felt need for the paramilitaries would end.

I've intentionally said "the paramilitaries", because I think this analysis applies to the Loyalists as well. It's complicated by the fact that the Loyalists have a double fear - as well as the fear of violence from the other side, there is a fear of the prospect in a fairly short time of being in a minority, and of the political changes that that will mean. So for some of them I suspect that there is a feeling that renewed violence and civil disruption is their only hope of averting this movement towards a united Ireland.

Maybe a more realistic option so far as the IRA is concerned, would be not so much disbandment but rather a public affirmation that its role is no longer to be seen as seeking to achieve a united Ireland by force of arms, or even as standing ready to resume that campaign if need be, but purely to act as a defence force to protect nationalist communities in the event of a break down of civil order. They could even come up with some form of words for that, because things like that can help - they'd explain that while they were not disbanding, the IRA was "standing down" or "moving to a demobilised status", or "reassigning units to peacetime duties during the continuing emergency" or something like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 09:33 PM

I agree with what you say, we do not need these people on either side, I'm frustrated with SF for allowing this to happen. With those who take advantage of it for their own end,they of all people have nothing to offer to anyone except obstacle's to the GFA.

I only mentioned the w'chair in an attempt to emphasise with you, and to let you know that what I post is not from bitterness
because that eats the very soul and achieves nothing.

I think if the IRA were to disband it would put the loyalists and their supporters under the spotlight, what would their excuse for existing be when the IRA are not there. I do not mean they disband in the context of being defeated but more in the line of leading the way. And there is no one who wants to see the end of those who murder in the name of "the protestant community" more than me .

I am sorry for your loss,and beleive what you say, I do understand your frustration when someone comes along extolling the virtues of the police. I have met many dedicated officers men and women from both religions and also many who should not be allowed to wear a car park attendants uniform. They defend their attitude with the stories of how they lost fellow officers and friends, but that hatred has to be set aside, and not used as an excuse for more violence.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 10:10 PM

Thanks for the kind words McG of H, I do agree with what you say,but I beleive we would never get to the state of civil breakdown.

The police and army would not take any sides, to go against their orders leaves them open to mutiny charges. They would have to face the wrath of those in-charge in England, also they would not have the ability to take on other regiments that would be sent in to restore order.

In dire straits the Irish army would be deployed to protect the interest of nat/rep, or the loyalists/unionists so there would be no real need for any paramilitaries at all.

We need to restore faith in the security forces, easier said than done, over the years they have earned the mistrust of both sides. That is why I advocate a mixed police force and in that respect we need each other not the paramilitaries who come at too high a price.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST,Ard Mhacha.
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 07:11 AM

"Ireland", as the man says we ALL have our stories to tell, and as Jimmy C says they are better left unsaid.
"Ireland" I do hope you are reading Soldier 027`s testimony at the Bloody Sunday enquiry, this makes harrowing reading, the British Dirty tricks brigade have tried all in their power to intimidate this person from telling the truth.
As usual the truth will out, but it takes a bloody long time to wring the truth from the murdering scum who turned an unarmed Civil Rights March into a bloodbath.Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: The Pooka
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 08:19 AM

Thanks again for your wisdom Kevin Mc.G.

Our bold fenian Guest has a bit o' the nerve calling *Ireland* the troll, here. But apparently *hasn't* got the gonads to sign up & introduce himself here as Ireland did.

Btw since the subject of a (not implausible) segregationist White Citizens Council/Orange Order analogy was introduced: sure; but then it wasn't the the Scots-Irish Presbyterians who conducted anti-draft riots & lynchings of blacks in NYC in 1864 rather than answer Father Abraham's call to fight against slavery. Those were my green "Catholic" (loosely speaking) ancesters by God; and *they* didn't have the testosterone to sign up, either. Or, more likely, the motivation. There's plenty of historical guilt to go around. Everywhere. Including, very obviously, in England.

Ard Mhacha, I think a careful reading shows that nobody here is trying to "make out a case for the Unionists". I gather we're all for a united 32-county Irish Republic. Some of us are just trying to make out the case that that can't come until there's a recognition of the good and the ill on both sides, east and west of the Bann.

As for Reagan and Bush, A.M.: *I* didn't vote fer 'em. Must have been some of the *other* Meander-thal Nuts over here who did. Of course in the case of Bush *II*, a plurality of us Wandering-Aengus crackpots voted for the other guy. The cardboard one. But he lost. In was those Tranfer Votes in Florida y'see. Disproportional Representation of Butterfly Ballots & Bushies y'know. Yes, Republican has a whole different meaning here. // But just in case you mean that we Yanks should mind our own business: yeah, we should. But why start Now? :)

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 09:00 AM

Ard, you are 100% right, it is pathetic that all people in Ireland cannot tell the truth, but here is the difference between you and I, I am prepared to say when it's wrong it's wrong. How about you?

Why did the IRA need the gards uniform that they were found in?

You moan about American's, why not about NORAID?

My point is it is a bit of a oneway street,with you all take and no give. You condemn unionist for wrecking the GFA and ignore those who supported it, keep up your cheap shots it only shows you up for what you are.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: The Pooka
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 09:08 AM

Spot on re NORAID, Eire. / Many of its contributors, including friends of mine, are celticmisty-eyed romantics; but IrishMisty-*brained* too I fear. There's no longer (if ever) an excuse for Not Knowing. Funds for Relief; yeah. Relief of WHAT? Ammunition shortage, due to One Bullet being Put Permanently Beyond Use?

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 09:11 AM

I hit the submit button.

We need people who are willing to whole heartedly admit their mistakes without the I done that because he did this rhetoric.

It is the only way forward admit all our wrong doings end the bitterness and make amends the best we can.

The Bloody Sunday trail is a joke because every one knows that the para's murdered these people, should I condemn the IRA for allowing that incident to swell their ranks and sending the rest of N.I. into 30 years of turmoil. I prefer to say I understand why such actions were taken and hope and pray we do not allow the same mistakes to happen again, it's called taking responsibility which is few and far between on all sides.

Truth and reconciliation is what's needed pure and simple.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 09:57 AM

If it weren't for NORAID there would be no Macbride principles, no political influence for the Irish American Congressional caucus, and without those political pressures, no American involvement under Clinton and Mitchell. Without Mitchell, there would have been no peace process. I get pretty damn fed up with the British propaganda line that all Irish Americans who support the nationalist community are romantic idiots with no political knowledge and acumen regarding the north. And when people in forums like this one, where the vast majority of posters ARE bloody ignorant of the facts, start agreeing with the Britspeak propaganda line about Irish Americans, I know the Brits have won again. And again. And again. Just use the good ole "T" word with the word "Irish" and dumb fuck Americans fall for it every time.

Gandhi was a terrorist in the British colonial worldview too, folks. The terrorists are anyone who holds a dissenting point of view from the majoritarian politicians Ireland claims are "the mainstream", remember? Like Mr. Ireland says, if the fascist wing of Fine Gael and Fianna Fail and the fascist Unionists and Loyalists, and even the bloody Labourites in power all say so, it must be true, right?

As to anyone who would claim in an internet forum to have been disabled by the IRA while involved in an argument where they are painting the IRA negatively, well...some of us know that tired old dirty trick. It is precisely that sort of behavior, along with the fact that this "Ireland" person has posted almost exclusively (and quite prolifically) about his anti-IRA political agenda since joining on 6 Oct, that fits my definition of a classic troll. He joins up so he can't be attacked for being anonymous (and therefore meet the idiotic definition of a troll in lesser Mudcat minds), acts according to the Mudcat friendly mode (which can be sussed out in under five minutes) and begins to ingratiate himself to a few people here, and then bloody claims he was put in a wheelchair by the IRA. Right.

Same old unionist shit one sees all the time on the internet. Somebody is trying to get the Mudcat to go down in flames over this old saw horse.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 10:17 AM

I believe we would never get to the state of civil breakdown.

And I hope you're right, Ireland. But I's notbhard to understand how there are people who are frightened that you aren't, and their fears are real.

In the same way I'd hope you were right and the reformed police and the army could be relied on to protect everybody - but even if that's true, there are still many people who don't trust them, and that is real as well.

While those fears exist, the likely effect of a simple disbanding of the IRA could be to provide the opportunity for something else along the lines of the Real IRA or the Continuity IRA to build a basis of support, and present itself as the defenders of the community, but with a wider agenda of "continuing the armed struggle". And I am sure there are people within the existing IRAho would be up for that.

I think there should be a possibility of something short of "disbandment" at this time which would avoid that danger, and could also provide a way of getting rid of the irrelevant and counterproductive military gamesmanship on the part of the IRA (which is how the espionage strikes me, when it comes down to it - and that is not to trivialise the real and justifiable fears of prison officers and so forth).

"When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walks through places without water, seeking rest: and not finding, he says: I will return into my house whence I came out. And when he is come, he finds it swept and garnished. Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself: and entering in they dwell there. And the last state of that man becomes worse than the first."

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST,Ard Mhacha
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 01:16 PM

C`mon "Ireland",How about 027, have you read his testmony at the Bloody Sunday Enquiry, it is in all of the papers, remember this was the greatest recruiting agent for the Provos, the Para murderers showed how brave they were.
And I hope you wern`t near Stoneyford Orange Hall, remember all of that security forces data on Nationalists that was discovered, along with the rifles, and police and army uniforms, you do know where Stoneyford Orange Hall is?.
You have been sussed out a long time ago, you should be ashamed to boast of your time with a party of murderers. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 01:57 PM

The poster calling itself "Ireland" has been sussed out by some of us, it is true Ard Mhacha. Anyone who comes into a forum like this attempting to conflate Gerry Adams with Bin Laden, and the IRA with Al Qaida ought to be easy enough to suss out. His overuse of the word "terrorist" should be a dead give away too, but unfortunately, the Americans have been absolutely brainwashed to react to this word in the most reactionary way of late, that if someone comes in here and says "IRA/Sinn Fein" and "terrorist" in the same sentence, at least some of us know exactly where the conversation is headed.

Unfortunately, when such posters join Mudcat as members, and use a name intended to invoke solidarity with the cause of a united Ireland (when their actual intention is to destroy confidence in Sinn Fein and undermine their credibility for participating in the government), when such scum post politely, and disguise their hate agendas by attempting to speak in august tones, many people will fall for it. Every time. See above for the current examples of those who are actually buying what this "Ireland" poster has been saying.

Like I said before, have a look see at this trolls very brief posting history here in Mudcat. It is, with very few exceptions, a history of posting anti-republican garbage in political threads.

These are the sorts of posters Mudcat wishes to welcome into the fold?

No thanks. I'll stick with the guest appellation. I don't want to be part of any club that would have the likes of "Ireland" as a member.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 02:28 PM

You do realise Mc G of H that I treat these posts just as what they are a discussion with no agendas, plain and simple exchanging of view points that in the real world would be lost among other such conservations and carry the same weight.

No real changes will come about from what you, JimmyC ,pooka, Tim, Ard and I post, it is just our views nothing more, I see no need in getting hot under the collar and personally offensive. Ard has come up with some crackers, done and dusted, being one,I do not think deep down he is being vicious, it comes across as a laugh to me not a personal attack, can we not keep it this way?

If mudcatters do not want me to continue posting say so and I'll leave,I do not want to be used as an excuse for the vile personal attacks that guest takes upon him/herself to expose other mudcatters to.

Back to :

I believe we would never get to the state of civil breakdown.

Lets face it the event of a total civil breakdown and its consequences can only be looked at hypothetically, but that is not to say it is not the basis for a good discussion. We comment from our own perspective and in doing so if we agree all the time it would be boring.

What is the role of the Irish government within the GFA, my point is if the Irish army is seen as legitimate among Nat/Rep then they have to accept their authority, either as recognised legitimate army or as a UN peace keeping force. Either way there would be no room for any paramilitary group.

The other rep/nat terrorist groups would be neither here nor there as they do not have the same support that the IRA have and are not seen as being anywhere near as influential as the unionists see the IRA. If people do change from one to the other (IRA to RIRA) then I see that as being disingenuous about the peace process and the sticking to the old ways,in other words using the RIRA as a threat to get their own way.

Just as Adams asks unionists to trust him that should be reciprocated wrt to the unionist who are 100% pro GFA, the loyalist crowd would get short shrift if they are the only protagonists left, security resources which are split between the two sides could then concentrate on those who are a threat to the peace process.

I recognise asking people to trust each other is easier said then done someone has to take the first step.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 03:00 PM

Ard did you not see my post, you will get no argument from me on that issue. It is about time some one has the courage to tell the truth the man should have done it years ago and at least leave the families with some comfort. People moan about the money spent I say slap it up em if they had told the truth in the first place who knows what events it would have averted. 30 years is far too long to wait for these people to get the slurr taken off their loved one's, they were innocent, hope that's plain enough?

I know Stoneyford all right and have the same opinion of them as I do have of the IRA men caught up the airport road in a house taking arms training,they have no excuse for having that information and training. And as you would look at me as a unionist they do not have my support morally or otherwise. There are no incidents that the terrorists in this country on either side have done will you get me to condone or excuse, good try though.

In what way am I sussed Ard?

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 03:09 PM

Ard, "And I hope you wern`t near Stoneyford Orange Hall, remember all of that security forces data on Nationalists that was discovered, along with the rifles, and police and army uniforms, you do know where Stoneyford Orange Hall is?."

Tell me this Ard, who made the discovery, the tooth fairy?

Any credit for those who took the arms out of the hands of these people? I know your answer "they should have not gave them the weapons in the first place".

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 04:03 PM

Hypothethical, as you say, Ireland. (And don't be fazed by the noises off.) But people have long memories, and their memories wouldn't need to be that long to remember what happened back in 1969.

Whether you think they'd be better to trust the British Army or the Police, or rely on help coming across the border from the republic, isn't the point. There isn't that trust and that reliance, and that means that if the existing IRA were taken out of the picture there'd be a new one, and that would be no improvement from anyone's point of view. (Apart from those people who would welcome a new war, more especially those who might see that as a way of averting developments which they see as leading inevitably to the end of partition.)

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Big Tim
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 04:24 PM

Can anyone tell me what the 82 year old IRA campaign has achieved? All I can see is "yes you can have a united Ireland if the majority in NI vote for it". That's the same as in England, Scotland and Wales where there have been no 4000+ deaths and no "liberation struggle". How can you have a liberation struggle in an area, NI, where the majority, the unionists, believe that they are already liberated?

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST,Ard Mhacha.
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 05:07 PM

"Ireland"   I have to laugh when I type your Mudcat name, Sandy Row would be apt.

                      I was confronted time out of number by uniformed football thugs, your mates, bully boys who knew they could get away with murder and did.
You come on here posing as cross between Ghandi and Mother Theresa, which one of your relatives in the UDA-UVF OR ANY of the other loyalist thuhs did you pass on information to?.
We all know that your mob and the RUC were passing on data on Nationalists, now tell me it didn`t happen as you most likely will,I see some of your comrades name on the UVF roll of honour in Portadown, they were members of The Ulster Defence Regiment who flagged down the Miami Show Band, and murdered all of the Band bar one, you were all one of a kind. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 05:14 PM

Sure Ard I get a laugh at your posts too, so we are just about even.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 05:43 PM

BTW, Ireland's reference to the show bands has been the only purportedly musical reference he has yet made in his now 64 posts as "Ireland". Combining that with chilling wee reference with the "I was put in a wheelchair by the IRA" and it becomes quickly apparent we've a real sicko in our midst.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST,Ard Mhaca
Date: 19 Oct 02 - 06:00 AM

I have just been reading again the evidence of Soldier 027, He states that during the shooting and killing his two Para mates on either side of him were firing into the crowd and kept telling him to fire, he kept on looking for a likely target such as a petrol-bomber or a gunman, but he failed to spot either, just a milling crowd of people diving to the ground or runing for shelter.
He also stated that afterwards in the Barracks the Paras had a party to celebrate and found it all great fun.
Bye the way, this ex-Para has been under Police protection for the past two years in case his Para friends follow up on their threats to him.
Hope this gives you a laugh soldier boy, the Paras found it hilarious. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: belfast
Date: 19 Oct 02 - 02:33 PM

I had to read it twice. "The IRA's 82-year old campaign". I was a young man way back in the 1960's (we made our own amusement then). I was more obsessed with politics then than I am now but I was not aware of the existence of the IRA. To call that organization moribund would be giving it credit for too much life. True, there was in '66 a commemoration on the Falls Rd of the 1916 rebellion. It was small and retrospective. I wasn't there myself. I was in London at a CND(Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament) rally in Trafalgar Square. And so were a lot of my friends including one who is now a leading member of Sinn Féin. At that time he, like me, if he had been aware of the existence of the IRA, would have regarded it as an irrelevance. So who breathed life into the IRA? The Unionist Government and its armed wings, the RUC and the B-Specials. The demands of the Civil Rights Movement, which at the time I found laughably unambitious, were met with a fury that to me was totally incomprehensible. People who were asking for minor reforms were battered and bludgeoned. The police rioted and the people defended themselves. Their houses were burned. People were killed. The argument that the state of Northern Ireland could not be reformed had a certain force. And, as the writing on gable walls said, "Out of the ashes of '69 rose the Provies". The response of the Unionist Government to the civil disturbances that followed was by now more predictable. Internment.   In other words people from nationalist communities were imprisoned for an indefinite period without trial. Some were tortured. Nobody from any loyalist gang was interned, of course. And so on. This was the work of the Unionist Party which had been in power for half a century, the party which David Trimble now leads. The closest that Trimble has ever got to acknowledging that there was ever anything wrong was to say that perhaps Northern Ireland was cold place for nationalists. And now he assures us that if only the IRA would go away that he might start to live up to his obligations under the Good Friday Agreement. He might even remember that he was one of those who negotiated that agreement.

And of course he is supported by that well-known peace lover, Tony Blair.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 02 - 03:15 PM

You have me a bit confused here, belfast. I noticed that you're the writer of a song about the Belfast Shipyards. I thought that your sympathies might be pro-unionist. Maybe I'm being simple-minded and things over there are even more complicated than I imagined. Maybe it's none of my business. And I've just caught the reference to the Incredible String Band. Cuiouser and curiouser.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Big Tim
Date: 19 Oct 02 - 04:28 PM

Belfast, sorry, that should be 79 year old campaign.

The campaign of the "IRA" has been continuous since the "end" of the Civil War in Spring 1923. There have been deaths, real human beings laid in coffins, often of "IRA" members, with tricolours, Mass Cards, etc, on board:
often of policemen, north and south, Protestant and Catholic, in the 1920s, the 1930s, the 1940s, the 1950s and the 1960s to date.                                                                                                                                       I could post the facts, they are well known. However you might prefer to read quite sympathetic histories of the "IRA" by Tim Pat Coogan, J.Bowyer Bell, Uinseann MacEoin, Ed Molonley and the many others.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Jimmy C
Date: 20 Oct 02 - 01:50 AM

Belfast, you are spot on. I was at the 1916 commemoration. It was a very peaceful parade, up the Falls Road to Casement Park. You have, by yuor post augmented what I have said in many posts about the North of Ireland, that is that, the I.R.A. were practically non-existant. There were a few incidents around the border from time to time, but they were few and far between. Sure there were people like Joe Cahill who would show up at the odd ceiligh and such, but the truth is that I would not have known how to go about joining the I.R.A. I did not know any one person in my whole district ( New Lodge Road) who was a member or anyone even remotely connected to any republican group. It was as you said, the actions and the behavour of the police and the british soldiers that forced the catholic community to look for protection somewhere else, and the only option open to them was to turn to the only group they had ever heard of, and that was the I.R.A. This opening presented the I.R.A. with a opportunity to start recruiting, something which would have been unnecessary if the police and army had done their job in a non-partisan manner. They did not and the I.R.A. took advantage of this and moved in. I know many people all members of the I.R.A. who before 1970 had never even heard of 1916 or 1798, and who actually knew very little about Ireland. All they wanted to do was have a chance of earning a decent living and most had no interest in politics, that all changed, and in short order the whole community was republican, thanks to the british army and the police, they did what the I.R.A. could not have acccomplished in a normal situation, they made it necessary to be a nationalist, they made it fashionable to be a nationalist, they made it desirable to be Irish. A Terrible Beauty was reborn.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: The Pooka
Date: 20 Oct 02 - 04:11 AM

Well. Since I (naively, it seems) began this thread I guess I can't complain, so I won't.

However, as the threadstarter I *will* grant myself a dispensation from the Mudcat don't-feed-the-trolls rule which newbie Ireland is now wisely following with strict military discipline; and chomp on our gentle GUEST's deep-diving Crankbait, as follows:

Oh so the NORAID take *is* drying out, is it? Must be, judging by your shrill yelps, there, Sir Roger. Listen, bold Theobold, it doesn't take a Brit propagandist to know a stupidarsed American-Irish romantic falling for the SF/IRA/Terrorist party line when you see one; and this here yankmick has seen plenty more than one. (Put THAT together in one sentence, Jimmy Joyce.) "Gandhi was a terrorist in the British colonial worldview too"; oh now *that*'s a neat Thought Experiment, Einstein. The International Jews don't like Our Lord Jesus either; therefore, Arafat is the Prince of Peace. Give us a break, Mahatma McGuinness. By the way, it's "al Qaeda". Get the spelling right would yez; else you might be Sussed Out by yo'mama Osama. Hmm, compiling a little dossier on Mudcatters' posts are you? Oh, the horror of suppressing "...anyone who holds a dissenting point of view...", to be *sure*!! Put the research on a diskette up at Stormont why don't ye. Y'know, for the lads' Mailing List. // Fook off, Jeremiah O'Donovan. Your time can be better spent. Johnny Adair wants to discuss strategy & tactics with you. Common cause, yer know. // Oh yeah and one other thing. Let's not get personal, OK? This is a high-minded Forum, here.
***************************************************************
Ireland: no, don't stop posting. Maintain discipline. (Me, I'm a Civilian, what do I care? :) Pay attention to McGrath. / Do put in some Music from time to time though. It helps.

Ard M.: You're a longtime, knowledgeable Member & I'm still relatively new & unlearned; & I do respect your point of view, though mine differs re methods if not goals. Seriously. / But settle down a bit could you? Cut yer man some slack. He's sincere I believe; and he's trying hard.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Big Tim
Date: 20 Oct 02 - 06:02 AM

Jimmy: re IRA history,we're both right. I don't have the energy to write up the whole thing but an outline will indicate that the capaign was continuous, dormant at times when forced to be, either though lack of public support or through the Free State's'Emergency'(World War II} iron fist policy of execution and internment, but always there.                     

On 25 August 1939 five people were killed by an IRA bomb in Coventry, England, all civilians, including a man of 81 and a boy of 15. The "Ould Alarm Clock" song refers to the English Campaign of that time. Two IRA men Barnes and McCormack were hanged. They were very idealistic and brave men but they died long before their time. The actual bomber was never caught and was known to be still alive in the 1980s.            

In the 40s lots of IRA men were executed by the Free Sate (one, George Plant from Tipperary, was a Protestant). In the North only young Tom Williams, age 19, was executed in 1942. Joe Cahill was sentenced to death for the same "incident" in which an RUC man, Patrick Murphy, was shot dead, leaving a widow and nine children. Cahill was reprieved.

In the Border Campaign of 1956-62, 12 IRA, including Sean South, Feargal O'Hanlon, and 5 men blown up by their own bomb in a field at Edentubber, Co. Louth,and 6 RUC men were killed.

I agree with your views on the reasons for the resurgence of the IRA in '69/70. (read Moloney on this).

Two new very interesting news items today.

1. The Real IRA prisoners in Portlaoise Jail are reported as having admitted to the Omagh bomb, that it severely damaged the Republican cause, and that they favour the disbandment of the Real IRA.

2. A report on BBC NI teletext today states; "The UUP will'die on its feet'unless it modernises and reshapes its membership, its Chairman has said.

At the Party Conference in Londonderry [BBC spelling, not mine!], James Cooper accused the Orange Order of rebuffing modernisation efforts for their own ends.

Mr. Cooper said the Party had failed to deliver on restricting the power of the Order within the Party. 'I am convinced that this Party should not allow one particular interest group to prevent progress' he said".

This train of thought is almost certainly influenced by Norman Porter's book "Rethinking Unionism: an alternative vision for Northern Ireland"(1996). Porter is a re-constructed, constructive unionist, who advocated both "civic unionism" and "civic republicanism" and much else, especially the UUP severing its links with the Orange Order. He's a philosopher and the book is a heavy read, was for me at least, but worth the effort. Its taken a long time for his ideas to find their way in public onto the unionist agenda but as we know political change in NI is difficult and slow.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: belfast
Date: 20 Oct 02 - 08:48 AM

I have just re-read my own posting and I've realized why I seldom contribute to these debates. I tend to lose my air of light-heartedness. This may be pedantic but the word "continuous" means, as a rule, uninterrupted, without a break. To say that something was been continuous except when there was a break is like saying that something was absolutely and totally black except when it was white. What was continuous was the campaign waged by the Unionist Government against its own citizens. It was a very successful campaign. They controlled what one English journalist, in a rare look at what was happening here, called "a political slum". They even made sure that nothing that happened here could be discussed at Westminster. And the British Government . . . ah, to hell with it. I'm fed up with the sound of my own voice.

But, by the way, Ed Moloney's book - if it's a secret history, what's it doing in a book available in all bookshops? And who told Ed these secrets. And how did he know what to believe and what was spoof?

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST,Brian F. Hannon
Date: 20 Oct 02 - 10:27 AM

The Biggest Mess in Northern Ireland is Lough NEAGH where the Local Tribe of Native IRISH Fisher People have been Without Their Collective Fishing Rights from the Time of Cromwell . One of his Fellow Ethnic Cleanser War Lords Sir Arthur Chichester during a Nine Years WAR became aware of The Wealth of Lough Neagh from the fishfull River Bann filled every late Winter by Vast Hordes of Atlantic Salmon . For which his Heir got a Royal Charter in Year 1661 what DELETED all Irish Rights in it TILL DATE . While the LORDS and their YEOMEN Lackeys were busy up in the Weirs on The BANN Catching and So Preventing The Salmon reaching our nets in LOUGH NEAGH we survived as we were just ignored and scarcely tolerated to harvest the Coarse Fish for Food and Subsistence Economy . It is at us the Aspiration to the Return of Our Forefathers Patrimony in Strasbourg . The British Legal System has FAILED Twice to curtail the out - of - Date FEUDAL Rights of An Absentee English Land LORD Family in year 1910 and 1964 to provide Equity to The Rightless .Not only that but they also re cemented The Charter We dont intend to go there again . Even The Irish LAND Commission Missed Us around year 1900 not even allowing us The Right to buy An Acre of Barren Shore per boat family to spread our Nets and haul up our boats and run our long lines . They took the Land by buying out the Landlords and selling it to the FARMERS right to the Edge of The Water making us a sub class even amongst our own people . Are we not Indigenous People Entitled to Indigenous Rights .Ask Doctor Julian Burger of The Indigenous Section of The U. N. In Geneva . See "Toome EEL Fishery" on this Forum .

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Oct 02 - 11:32 AM

Pooka, I notice that neither Irish nor Irish American posters are rushing to agreement with you. Could it be that your perpetual, self-proclaimed ignorance about the north has less to do with ignorance than it does with stubborn, blind allegiance to a particular mindset about Ireland and the Irish?

Just a thought. One would think that if you had read and absorbed even half of the threads on the north which you obsessively participate in, you'd have a learned a bit more about the Troubles by now.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: The Pooka
Date: 20 Oct 02 - 01:20 PM

Well said and fair enough, republican Guest. Can we just add my posting history to the diskettes and call it even? Ya sussed me out, man. In my ignorance I do indeed attend services at the Parish of Perpetual Self-Proclamation, a small Gnostic sect advocating Peace, Justice, Concurrent Majoritarianism, and Imitation of Deer Standing Jacklighted in the Middle of the Road. :)

I think most, or a lot, of us on both Pondsides and Bannbanks have "a particular mindset about Ireland and the Irish". Mine does include giving all of the former back to all of the latter (apologies to McCartney). Hopefully none of us need be stubborn and blind. (Nor, any more of us crippled.) In truth I've read & absorbed *just about* half of the threads you referenced; and I *have* learned a bit more--more than a bit more--than I used to know. Including, from you. Seriously.

So, thanks. Your Ould Alarum Clock (Hi Tim!) set me off; but I value your info none the less.

Obsessively yours,
The Pooka

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: The Pooka
Date: 20 Oct 02 - 01:32 PM

Thread Drifts South: On second thought, Eire has just voted for the Treaty of Nice. Is this Nice, or Not? I gather a bigger turnout than Round One turned the trick. So to speak. What say yez?

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Oct 02 - 02:00 PM

I, for one, have found this more educational, historically speaking, than most of the former threads on the "Troubles" and I've been here for almost all of them, I think.

I appreciate hearing from you who live there, or have lived there and hearing the very differing perspectives. I used to think I knew something about it all, but I lost that arrogance a couple or so years ago.

I would say that I don't like anyone painting with a broad brush, though, and just register that not ALL Americans are brainwashed by the Shrub and his War of Obfuscation. We do not see a "terrorist in every pot" and have been lodging our protests in many differnet ways. We need for the international community to keep up their pressure to avert this bullshit, too, as it lends that much more support to our dissent.

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 11:36 AM

I just reread this thread, and one argument leaps out at me. I have no answers, only this question:

If armed struggle/terrorism (depending upon one's point of view) isn't going to achieve the objective of a just and equitable society, and the political process isn't going to achieve the objective of a just and equitable society, then what will?

What happens when the politicians don't allow justice and peace to take hold, despite the will of the majority of the citizenry to see it happen?

Not only is this the most relevant question to be asking today in Northern Ireland, but it is the most relevant question to be asking in Britain and the US as well, in regards to attacking Iraq, and in the Middle East regarding the West Bank and Gaza.

So, to those of you who keep screaming at us that "terrorism is not the answer"...please tell us what IS the answer? If neither the soldiers/terrorists OR the politicians will not bend to the will of the people, what are the people to do to defend themselves against this political tyranny?

After a decade of failures by the politicians to bring about the justice and peace negotiated and renegotiated in the Irish Good Friday Agreement, and the Gaza/Jericho Agreement, the Wye River Accord, the Palestinian-Israeli Interim Agreement On The West Bank & The Gaza Strip, etc. what are reasonable, well intentioned, people who are suffering under an occupying force to do to rid themselves of the tyranny? What are the people to do when their leaders who are peacefully working to rid society of violence and injustice, are assassinated, or removed from power arbitrarily by the occupying force, as we are seeing happen over and over again in Ireland, in the Middle East, in Columbia, etc.

The new strategy of the permanent member states of the Security Council of the UN, is diplomatic and political negotiations. The problem with that strategy is it has failed nearly everywhere it has been used. So what now?

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST,Ard Mhacha.
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 04:45 PM

From to-days Irish News 21st October,
An independent public inquiry into the murder of Solicitor Pat Finucane is inevitable and could be annnounced within the next few months, the SDLP`s Alex Atwood has claimed.
Mr Atwood said the report is expected to confirm "peoples worst fears about the conduct of elements of Special Branch [RUC] and British Intelligence Service.
Mr Atwood added, "and it`s not just the murder of Pat Finucane. There were a series of murders around that time that certainly involved The British Army`s Forces Research Unit and had the fingerprints of Special Branch [RUC] over some or all of them.

The Stevens Inquiry report is due to be published in November.
Later this month the findings of an independent review into Special Branch, ordered by the Policing Board, is also for publication.Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 06:46 AM

Taken from http://www.derryjournal.com/bloodysunday/fullbsmain.asp?DJID=7196
Opinions on Bloody Sunday from some one who was there:

IT'S NOW 30 years since the day they call 'Bloody Sunday' happened. The inquiry is up and running and already it is the most expensive in British legal history and it may not even be past the halfway point yet. Some say it will cost £100 million; others say that amount won't even look at it. What price the truth, they say. The revisionists who want the world to believe their story present it like this: Catholics were marching for their civil rights; the British government was determined to teach them a lesson so it sent in the Paras. The Paras did what Paras do best and 13 innocent young men lay dead after a peaceful march. The unionists feel guilty now, so they keep their heads down hoping it will all blow over, and the nationalists will give over whingeing and moaning, accept the new inquiry and get on with it.

Well, so much for wishful thinking.

Now for the real world.

In the four weeks before that day in Londonderry, the following violence was carried out by the various factions of the IRA: nine separate bomb attacks on commercial and security force premises; six separate shooting incidents, including an 80-minute gun battle, gelignite and nail-bomb attacks. A robbery occurred where 157 British army uniforms were stolen and several soldiers were wounded. Just three days before the march two RUC officers were callously murdered less than a mile from where the march was due to start.

This is not an exhaustive list but it does give some idea of what was going on when Martin McGuinness was second-in-command of the Provisional IRA in Londonderry, as he has recently confirmed. Disorder There was, of course, disorder and violence in many other parts of Northern Ireland and internment had been used as an unwieldy measure against republicans.

It was in this context that the march occurred, with many soldiers fearing for their lives as they prepared for what they believed was going to be (and turned out to be) a violent confrontation. Thirty years on, there are going to be hundreds of witnesses called to give evidence regarding what they saw, heard and did on that day. Given the thousands on the march, and the hundreds of soldiers on duty, is there going to be anyone anywhere who has not only the razor-sharp memory going back to that time but who was exactly in the right position at just the right time to see enough to be certain, not only as to what happened, but to relate the motives of those soldiers who fired their rounds?

Of course, McGuinness has already said he will not be naming any other members of the IRA. Openness apparently is to be demanded of the Paras but not of the Provos. The IRA was actively carrying out bomb and gun attacks right throughout January, and we are expected to believe that they suddenly took rest and recuperation on this particular day, even when some republicans have had to concede that, at least, one civilian gunman was seen and photographed at an early stage in the day's proceedings.

There is unionist anger at the inquiry, its cost and its duration. There is even more anger at the fact that it has continued for two years up to this point, and its proceedings have been summarised every day of its sittings on local radio and television. Local newspapers carry extensive coverage of witness evidence each week. It goes on and on and on and on.

This is happening while at the same time there is no inquiry into the events that occurred at that time and since that have allegedly involved the person who is at present the Minister in Northern Ireland with responsibility for the education of our children:

Martin McGuinness. Civil rights The demand, they said, was for civil rights. One of their leaders said at around the time of Bloody Sunday: "When we get our civil rights there will be no revenge". Thirty years later, what has been the result of that campaign? The west bank of Londonderry, where the march took place, is now 99 per cent Roman Catholic - 65,000 people with fewer than 1,000 of them Protestants. Thousands of jobs have been created in recent years across the whole city, which is about 25 per cent Protestant, but only about 10 per cent of them for that community.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 07:27 AM

http://www.derryjournal.com/bloodysunday/fullbsmain.asp?DJID=7200

Some eye witness accounts:

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST,Den
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 08:23 AM

So your conclusion Bloody Sunday was completely justified. You really are a bigot of the worst kind. Why not also include the work of Don Mullan: Bloody Sunday Massacre in Northern Ireland, The Eyewitness Accounts, or Fulvio Grimaldi (the Italian photographer who captured much of what happened on the day on camera and who the Paras tried to shoot aswell) Blood in the Street. Or better still the testimony of Soldier 027 who was there that day as well except he couldn't find a justifiable reason to kill anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 09:46 AM

Did you bother to go to the site Den?

If you had you would have realised that the above post was not my words, but the account of that man who was there that day. Would you call him a bigot. I wouldn't I'd call him some one who is being honest till it hurts.

If you had bothered to follow the second link you would have found the accounts of eye witnesses, none of my words, but a harrowing read which protrays the horror of what went on.

Most importantly if you had bothered to go to the site you would have found a modicum of hope. The man who wrote the article was a pen pal to a woman from Liverpool at that time, they fell out over the unjust actions of the paras, but met up again years after and now live together.

Here is the clue den that they are not my words right at the onset of the post,
Taken from http://www.derryjournal.com/bloodysunday/fullbsmain.asp?DJID=7196 Opinions on Bloody Sunday from some one who was there:

You call me a bigot,from what view point did you reach this conclusion, ignorance,the precursor to bigotry. Your that bigoted when the argument is turned around given from a different perspective and is still in your favour you can't see it.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 10:07 AM

"Ireland" is a troll. He/she calls himself/herself "Ireland" to make it appear as if they love Ireland, and then posts incredibly inflammatory and unsubstantiated stuff from a loyalist terrorist/B special sort of perspective.

The best thing to do is ignore the posts to these threads from the member "Ireland". They are just being mean spirited, and trying to start a flame war.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 10:26 AM

BTW, for those who don't know, the link Ireland provides above is to an article written by Gregory Campbell, a member of Paisley's party. He is one of the party leaders intent on destroying the GFA.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 10:31 AM

Guest Den, go to the Derry Journal site, http://www.derryjournal.com/bloodysunday/fullbsmain.asp?DJID=7207 I'm not point scoring the site is an interesting read it has accounts from those who were there. It tells of Jimmy McGovern's drama 'Sunday' and of the relatives of some of the people killed that day who protrayed them in the drama.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 10:32 AM

BTW, the DUP's paramilitary organization is the LVF, the worst murderers in the north.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 10:39 AM

And people might like to read a bit more about the UDP/LVF terrorist campaign from the BBC here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/troubles/factfiles/lvf.shtml

Like I said, "Ireland" has a definite agenda which looks an awful lot like the UDP/LVF agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Wolfgang
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 11:19 AM

I read Ireland's contributions with a grain of salt (sometimes with even a larger quantity), but I appreciate another voice in the threads about (Northern) Ireland. Ireland, don't let you be bullied into silence. I wish some posts from the other side had a bit of your good will and your ability to differentiate.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 11:35 AM

I assume that people can read and think I fail to see the need for guest to do both, and in doing so peddling their own filthy version of bigotry and flame others in doing so. Ignorance the precursor of the Bigot, the site I refer to is pro-Bloody Sunday inquiry who have the decency to allow the view of the other side to be represented.

This leads to knowledge the cure to bigotry, I honestly do not give a flying F. I'll not stoop to that level, neither will I stoop to the level that all nat/rep, Catholics are in the IRA or hold agendas I'm not that insecure. I can accept the other sides argument and there is more of them that put it across without hatred than there is of people like you who do, that's were the progress is made.

What I will not accept though is some "volunteer" keeping tracks on my posts so they can use it as intimidation, playing on the fear that this arse is taking note's on me and sussing me out so I will not post for fear of some form of reprisal. This is common tool among terrorists they use it to keep people from stepping out of line.

This display of intimidation is a perfect example of why N.I. is in the mess its in, guests attempt at this is the best example I've seen of bringing the intimidation that goes on the in the streets of N.I. onto the net.

Do what I did guest join, become a member then you may have some right in telling other mudcatters how to think and what to read and who should participate on the forums. Oh I forgot you did make a feeble attempt at an excuse to why you do not join. But as making excuses for not doing the right thing is prevalent in N.I. what would make you do any different.

Slabber all you want guest because that is all it is, and while your at it read some of the rules of this forum and have the decency to respect them, or because your not a member do you think you can ignore them, that would not surprise me in the least.

For those really interested the site I mentioned is a good source of information about Bloody Sunday and gives an insight to what some unionists think about it. I suggest we educate ourselves and not leave it to the bigot who is full of hatred and prejudice.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 11:40 AM

Wolfgang, I'm interested in the grain of salt bits,that is fine by me I am interested on what points do you not agree with.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 11:50 AM

What guest also left out at the bottom of the page is this

Messages   
In occasion of the 30th anniversary of Bloody Sunday, we have decided to provide a space where people in Derry and across the world, can espress their solidarity to the Relatives or write about their memories about the tragic events of 1972.
Send your message for the 30th Anniversary

Read them,to get ivolved in discussions of N.I. and Bloody Sunday, it is only fair to take on board the views of those who were there and how they were affected. Hardly coming down on the para's side now is it?

Then waste time on the pathetic sites that the "volunteer" suggests, keep giving them more hits and encourage them to peddle their version of bigotry and terrorism.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 01:00 PM

Excuse me, but if the purpose of the endeavor at the Derry Journal is to express solidarity with the relatives of victims, what the hell is the Derry Journal doing publishing inflammatory, hurtful crap like that published by Gregory Campbell, a member of a loyalist political party with very strong ties to the worst murderers in the history of the Troubles, which has delighted in the killing of Catholic nationalists? What the hell is a piece like that doing as part of this particular series? I'm not saying they shouldn't do an op ed piece unrelated to this particular series, but let us not delude ourselves. There is nothing decent or fair about publishing a piece by the likes of Gregory Campbell in a series being promoted to be for the benefit of the relatives, friends, and community members of a massacre.

Good god, when does human decency begin to enter into this? This crap about "balance" and "seeing the other sides' point of view" is part and parcel of the propagandist strategy to maintain the status quo. That is the sort of bullshit that leads to more and more obfuscation, which allows the status quo to carry on business as usual.

What is needed is moral clarity, not the tyranny of ideological certainty that all reasonable people should be on neither side but in the "middle" or "centre" where no meaningful change can ever take place.

Change in any society that has covered up a massacre for as long as the British have covered up the Bloody Sunday massacre, is what is needed. Not agreement that the perpetrators of the massacre believed that the massacre of innocent people was justified from their personal OR political point of view. A massacre is a massacre.   The armed forces of ANY country shooting into a crowd of unarmed civilians is MORALLY INDEFENSIBLE, whether it happens in Derry or at Kent State. THAT is the moral clarity required when looking at Bloody Sunday.

Defending posters of the sort of sadistic, sick rants that this "Ireland" person keeps posting here might be entertainment for you Wolfgang, but some of us have no stomach for it, after 30 years of it in the north. You bet I'm trying to shout it down. I don't want to here that murderers deserve our support and empathy, which is the essence of the argument this "Ireland" poster has been making all along, both in this thread and in others. That isn't balance, it is psychological stalking on the internet.

Mudcat members can welcome sickos like this if they want to, because the violence doesn't effect them. Its easy to claim that this sort of crap brings "balance" and fairly includes opposing points of view. It is the moral equivalent of someone coming in to the forum and saying apartheid was justified because it was central to the cultural traditions of the Afrikaaner, and that Sharpeville was justified because of ANC violence which preceded it.

If that is "reasonable" and "balanced" in your view, fine. Just don't expect that some of us won't do all in our power to shout you down for claiming so.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 01:33 PM

I never took time to read beyond your first line of your tripe guest, if the site is seen as you say, there are enough people posting messages of support to it, people who were there people who lost family and friends so your arguing for he sake of it. And that is what trolling is about.

You can slabber all you want I see your guest label and skip it.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 02:15 PM

Nice try "Ireland." Paint me as the heinous guest so you don't have to be held accountable for what you are saying and doing.

Like I said, none of the Irish OR British Mudcat members here are rushing to agreement with you--and that speaks volumes.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST,Den
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 02:52 PM

"Your that bigoted when the argument is turned around given from a different perspective and is still in your favour you can't see it".


On what bases do you post your assertion that I am a bigot? I was responding to your use of the bigoted ramblings of Gregory Campbell. To be quite honest its hard to tell from your post where your words end and his begin. Or are his views your views aswell.


You won't find me quoting from anyone who takes a Campbell's stand on the nationalist side.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 02:56 PM

If you bothered to go to the site Den it would have been obvious were my words ended.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 03:12 PM

Den, before this gets out of hand I apologise to you unreservedly you had every right to come to the conclusion you did.

I meant to post this please accept my apologies.

Nigel Cooke was a Derry schoolboy with a Liverpool female penpal when he took part in the 1972 Bloody Sunday march. The 2 friends fell out over the Paras' actions that day. Now, 30 years later, they are a couple and watched Liverpool playwright Jimmy McGovern's "Sunday" on Channel 4 together. This is Nigel's story. The Bloody Sunday dramas have helped Nigel Cooke lay some personal ghosts Everyone who took part in the Bloody Sunday march, who experienced the trauma of that time, has a story to tell of how their lives were changed forever. Some are being heard at the Saville Inquiry, others may never be told. Here is mine. I was an A-level student at St Columb's College at the time. The world lay at my feet provided I got the right exam results. My interests were the usual ones – football, girls, music. And to a lesser extent, politics. You could not be a Catholic youth in Derry in the late 1960s and not be surrounded by politics. I had found a way of broadening my local horizons. I used to write every week to a girl in Liverpool. We were serious penpals, exchanging all our gossip, hopes and views on the world around us. We hoped to meet some day, perhaps if I went to Liverpool University. Maybe we had a future together. It was not to be … not for many years. After Bloody Sunday, I totally lost the plot with my Liverpool penpal, Madeleine. I called her and her army and her country everything under the sun ! My mother has reminded me – some 30 years after the event – that I took to my bedroom after the killings, retreated within myself, and she had to call the doctor. Shock was diagnosed - a state which, more or less, lasted 30 years, along with a seething anger. I stopped writing to Liverpool. My immediate anger was overwhelmingly intensified by the Widgery whitewash. This was the whole might of the State being brought to bear in justification of murder. They tried to dress it up, to muddy the water, to somehow blame the dead and injured for their own fates. If they could get away with a legal "draw" on the opposition's patch, that was as good as a win. And they did, of course. Their glee was such they couldn't help awarding themselves medals at the Palace ! They are still at it. The British Establishment has done all in its power to thwart the unpalatable truth about Bloody Sunday ever coming out. Oh yes, they now call it a "tragedy" and "regrettable". That's implying it was an unplanned accident, not their fault somehow. And they have never actually said "sorry". They indulge in sanctimonious "whataboutery" – what about all the IRA killings of soldiers etc ? As if that somehow makes things alright, "evens the score" as it were ! To be sure, we have the new Saville Inquiry, but I – like a number of others – will never accept that this is a truly impartial and independent investigation. How can it be when the Chairman is (once again) an English Lord ? How can it be when his rulings are overturned by English courts ? How can it be when supposedly-confidential material is leaked to the English press ? Good luck to the relatives of the dead and God speed to all who wish to testify before Lord Saville. But as far as I'm concerned, when the opposition appoints the Referee and makes the rules, it's a fix ! Now, you may consider all of the above to be the ranting of a disaffected cynic. However, after my A-levels I took a degree at Trinity College Dublin, winning a University Prize in my Finals and (only just) coming second in the entire university. Then I joined the Dublin civil service and spent 12 years (being promoted) in the middle ranks of the Department of Finance, at the heart of government, taking a Diploma in Public Administration along the way. So I'm a highly-educated and well-experienced disaffected cynic. My years in the Republic's civil service coincided with the multiple premierships of one Charles J. Haughey. If I was disgusted by the British, I was doubly-disgusted by Haughey, a native Irish bandit. Enough influential people knew all the fiddles Charlie was up to, but there were far more mice than men about in those days. Nevertheless, I leaked whatever I could to Eamonn McCann at the 'Sunday World', Gene Kerrigan at 'Magill' magazine and to other journalists. Why ? Two reasons mainly. Firstly, I correctly reflected (and this was borne out by history) that if there was fiddling going on in small things, then there must be worse skulduggery going on in big affairs. And secondly – more importantly – I had lost faith in the rule of law and respect for the State. Bloody Sunday and Widgery did that to me initially, Haughey compounded it. Moving on, some years ago I re-established contact with my Liverpool penpal. We visited each other's cities and then set up home together. We plan to see out our days together in Liverpool, which we both dearly love. It's a gutsy town, at peace with itself, sure of its identity, proud of its culture and history, confident of its future. In many ways it's like Derry, a port city full of music and craic, not suffering fools gladly and never afraid to put the boot into officialdom and pomposity. So it was with a mixture of pride and sadness that Madeleine and I sat down together to watch "Sunday" by Liverpool playwright Jimmy McGovern. Jimmy told it like it was. He told it in the Liverpool way and in the Derry way, from the people's viewpoint. That's how it was – a people's tragedy, a people's trauma. Bloody Sunday belonged, and still belongs, to the people. Not to politicians, not to paramilitaries and most certainly not to over-priced lawyers. But to the dignified, wronged people of a most loving, most giving town. And what came out was the unblemished people's truth. Tribunals in all their finery matter little beside that. As we sat and watched together and our eyes welled up with the memories and thoughts of lost possibilities, I felt something of the burden of the years lift. Perhaps, for us at least, this is the beginning of the end.

This link will take you to Mitchel Mclaughlin's (sp?) contribution to the Derry Journal http://www.derryjournal.com/bloodysunday/fullbsmain.asp?DJID=7195

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Wolfgang
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 11:15 AM

Ireland,

I'm an outsider, of course, but I have been in Ireland more often than in any other country outside of Germany. If I recollect correctly, Armagh is the only county I have never stopped yet. I've spoken to many people and I've read more than two dozen books about Northern Ireland.
That doesn't make me an expert, of course, but I consider myself better informed than on many other fields on which I have an opinion.

I always found that the catholics (I know it's wrong but I use these religious labels to avoid nationalist/republican etc nomenclature problems) had very good reasons for complaints and that protestant stubbornness and arrogance has contributed much more than anything else to the development euphemised as 'The Troubles'. I think that the British government has handled the situation in a very one-sided and, in the long run, stupid way. As often, I rather believe in governmental stupidity and short-sightedness than in skilfull and planned underhandedness. Altogether, I had a lot of sympathy for the catholic side.

I'm still unconvinced that there was no peaceful alternative to the course of action initiated by, chiefly, the IRA, and later joined, with at least the same brutality but with more open sectarianism in their attacks, by protestant paramilitaries.

In Mudcat discussions on Ireland, I have often been irritated by the selectivity of the tales told. Outright falsehoods are very rare, but a selections of the facts happens often. The history is told as a mere succession of British brutalities or, on the other side, of IRA atrocities. The dead on one side have been 'murdered', the dead on the other side have 'deceased'.

Contrary to how some others here see you, I see a genuine effort in you to understand and to see the situation with someone else's eyes. I see more of that laudable attitude in you than I see in some posters who criticise you. Where I disagree with you is mostly in which facts you leave out, for instance in the Bloody Sunday description.

But I won't go into details, for I know from experience that threads on the Northern Ireland Mess are getting nasty very soon. And posters whose contribution in other threads I value a lot come over in these threads as less nice persons than I am firmly convinced they are.

BTW, Mudcat posts from posters with radical republican leanings have done more than anything else to make me less pro-catholic than I have been before my Mudcat time.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 11:38 AM

Wolfgang what facts did I leave out on Bloody Sunday, the site I ask people to visit tells the story far better than I can as it is from those who were there, the victims of the para's.

Go to any web site on Bloody sunday and you get the same account.I picked out this site because it holds a glimmer of hope, the two people meeting years later and trying to get on with life.

We all need to try and follow their example, to avoid the violent solution to N.Irelands problems and in doing so we need to look at ourselves truthfully.

"I always found that the catholics (I know it's wrong but I use these religious labels to avoid nationalist/republican etc nomenclature problems) had very good reasons for complaints and that protestant stubbornness and arrogance has contributed much more than anything else to the development euphemised as 'The Troubles'"

I agree with you 100% on the above.

Thanks for your reply.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: InOBU
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 11:57 AM

Hi Folks:
I stayed away from this for awhile, as my posts on the real politic behind the war are in the archieves here. I am still convinced that the people of Ireland, all the people of Ireland, from Cork to Derry where a pawn in the cold war struggles that the US was as much a part of as any. However, what I will add, is that war, all wars lead to a need to heal from the hurts of the past. When a loyalist spokesman came to the US to speak at on a progressive radio show (WBAI), I was there to speak about Indians. Well, he was being ostrasised by all in the green room. So, I made him a cup of tea, sat down with him, and shook his hand and welcomed him to the States. After a few pleasentries, I explained that we were on very different sides of the political divide in Ireland, but that now that there was a sease fire, I hoped we could presume friendship as we attempted to understand the implications of the facts of Ireland's past. We did not agree on much, but we began the conversation.
Let's all, on both sides of this conversation, begin by accepting we are part of the same nation (we Otways never go native, but remain Irish and Anglo Irish, where ever we are born...) so try to listen (write) with as much fervor as you talk (write)... be nice...
Is mise, le meas, Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 12:01 PM

Wolfgang, if you find so-called "radical republic leanings" so very off-putting, then you were never very genuine in your so-called "pro-catholic sympathies" and that is easily sussed out in your posts to these threads in general Wolfgang.

I suspect you are a very nice, well mannered, polite German gentleman Wolfgang, even though I have never met you. But anyone who claims to be persuaded one way or the other by conversations in internet chat forums such as this aren't very credible to begin with, no matter how many times you've visited, or how many books you've read. Your preference for using the Catholic/Protestant labels rather than the very accurate republican/nationalist and unionist/loyalist labels speaks volumes to people on the ground in the north. The Troubles in Ireland, from the time of plantation to today, have not been a result of religious difference, everything to do with national allegiances, ie British/Irish allegiances. The so-called religious aspects related to the Troubles are rooted in English history, and Henry VIII's and his descendants choices, not Irish history.

A lot of people visit Ireland and remain blisfully ignorant of what is going on day to day in the north. In fact, that is precisely what most people do. When they do visit the north, they usually are free to travel in areas which are no go areas for republicans, certainly, and stick to the neutral, safe areas, venues, and tourist destinations, rather than the areas where there could be political violence, just as most Northern Irish citizens do.

This thread is not about to turn nasty. You are quite conviently mislabelling the expression of strong opinions as rudeness, in order to score what I call "politeness points" in the argument, just as many nice, polite, well mannered middle class people around the world do. No surprise there. If more people allowed frank, straightfoward debate to take place, where people were openly questioned about the assertions and made to prove them either in word or deed, we would have much less violence than the amount of violence currently tolerated in the world today. And that fact has nothing to do with Northern Ireland, and everything to do with it.

Polite people don't call Orangemen bigots, do they? No, no...that would be nasty. An ad hominem attack. It seems that in some circles, such as ones you yourself travel in Wolfgang, ruffling well mannered feathers is much, much worse a crime than spewing a bigot's rhetoric.

And I note Wolfgang, that none of the Irish and British Mudcat members are rushing to agree with you either.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 12:06 PM

So Larry, what Native American tribe are you a member of?

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Jimmy C
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 03:06 AM

This post was started about " The Mess in N.Ireland". Some blamed Sinn Fein for SPYING. Others tried to explain that all parties do it, so also do the authorities. I suppose there are those who thought that I was just a bit of a hot-head by my postings, well I am not, but to show to some extent what the nationalist community have had to put up with for years please read the following - it is a report from the B.B.C. and a programme titled Panorama, this broadcast will prove that there has been collusion between SOME members of the police, the special branch and loyalist squads. , I hope Ireland and others get something out of this as it is documented by English men/women anmd not by any Irish nationalist. I am sure that many fair minded folk in England and many decent protestants in Ireland will be digusted by what some people have done and by the fact that they claim to be british.
One other note, this appears as a headline on the B.B.C. news report, yet the Belfast Telegraph's website makes no mention of it on their top stories.



Kevin Connolly
BBC Ireland correspondent



A BBC Panorama programme says elements within Northern Ireland's police and military intelligence collaborated with loyalist paramilitaries in the late 1980s over the murder of Catholics.

A man identified as a loyalist killer tells the programme - to be broadcast on Wednesday - that the targets included the lawyer, Pat Finucane, who was murdered 13 years ago.

Mr Finucane was a thorn in the side of the British establishment in Northern Ireland until the Sunday evening in 1989 when loyalist gunmen burst into his home and shot him dead in front of his wife and children.

As Panorama reveals, the story of who killed him and why continues to haunt the authorities in Belfast and London.

It also raises disturbing questions about collusion between elements of the security forces and loyalist murder gangs.

The central charge in the programme is that such collusion resulted in the murder of a number of innocent Catholics - among them Mr Finucane.

In one extraordinary moment, reporter John Ware sits in a car with Ken Barrett, a loyalist paramilitary who is unaware that this meeting and others are being secretly filmed and recorded.   

Barrett tells Ware bluntly: "Finucane would have been alive today if the peelers (police) hadn't interfered."

Barrett - described in the programme by a veteran detective as "a killer" - says a special branch officer encouraged loyalists to murder Pat Finucane.

They then tipped off the assassination squad on the fatal night that the coast around his house was clear - in other words that there were no police or Army patrols around it.

It is shocking stuff, but the programme suggests it is part of a pattern, and that at the centre of that pattern were paramilitaries like Ken Barrett, but also the still more sinister figure of Brian Nelson.

'More professional'

Nelson was a former soldier from Northern Ireland recruited by military intelligence and sent back to Belfast to infiltrate the loyalist paramilitary organisation the Ulster Defence Association (UDA).

In partnership with his handlers though, his job rapidly and dangerously expanded until he was supplying loyalist killers with intelligence documents from the security forces.

The aim, according to the programme, was to make the targeting by loyalists "more professional".

The result was that innocent Catholics were killed.

Since 1989, Sir John Stevens, who is now commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, has been investigating the allegation that shadowy elements within military intelligence and the RUC special branch were colluding with loyalist assassination squads.

Duplicate office

The obstruction he has faced was most dramatically illustrated by the fire which destroyed the offices in which officers working for him were based, in a police station near Carrickfergus, County Antrim, in 1990.

There was a story the fire had been caused by a discarded cigarette end.

But in the Panorama programme, Sir John says he never believed that story and makes it plain he believes the shadowy forces he was investigating were out to stop him.


"What happened was, round about the second or third day of that inquiry, we were given some notification that something might well happen.

"That's the reason why we had a duplicate office in Cambridgeshire where we had statements which made sure that when the fire took place we could continue with the inquiry."

The Stevens report is due out soon, but this Panorama report - with detectives who worked on the inquiry helping to paint a picture of this murky world of collusion and bereaved Catholic families telling of its human cost - seems to point to the conclusions it will reach.

In political terms, in Northern Ireland perhaps, it will not change perceptions - not least because republicans have been alleging for years that something like this was going on.

But the revelations will cause shock elsewhere in the UK.

Panorama has shed light on a murky and dangerous world, and will tell a British audience one dark aspect of what was undertaken in their name in Northern Ireland's recent past.

The nationalist SDLP's Alex Attwood told the BBC on Wednesday there now needed to be a full international independent inquiry into the murder.

The RUC became the Police Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI) in November last year.



Add this to the testimony of the secret soldier at the Bloody Sunday trial and you will have a better understanding of what I am getting at.

Sorry it is so long.

Jimmy C.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 06:13 PM

If only we could all of us pay as much attention to our own faults as to the faults of other people the world would be a much happier and more peaceful place.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 06:28 PM

JimmyC, thanks for posting that.

"Ireland" please put in some paragraph breaks when you post such long articles. It is really hard on the eyes to sort through when it is all run together. Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: The Pooka
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 10:13 PM

Kevin McG., thanks for posting *that*. Amen, amen, amen.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: belfast
Date: 26 Oct 02 - 09:06 AM

I had imagined that this thread would disappear soon but, given its title, I suppose it could last a very long time.

To return to the events that started this thread. I was in Berlin at the time of the raids on the Sinn Féin offices and when a friend told me what I had heard on the news I was completely mystified. A friend told me what was they were saying on the news – "an IRA spy ring at Stormont". It was incomprehensible.

It was only when I got home that I got some feeling of what was really going on. The raids on Sinn Féin offices at Stormont were the most outrageous publicity stunt. They had nothing to do with policing and the officers involved didn't even pretend to be there for any other reason. They looked for nothing because they knew there was nothing to be found.    They were there for the television cameras. And the willingness of the media to be used in this fashion is neither new nor surprising but still deplorable. What they found in one man's house would not have made headlines had it not been for the raids at Stormont.

Many Unionist politicians, especially but not only Ian Paisley, openly talk of information, which they have been given by police officers and civil servants from the Northern Ireland Office. Has there ever been a raid on their homes or offices? Of course not.

But it reminds me how difficult it can be for someone outside to understand what is going on here. As a man once said to me, "I don't know much about the Irish situation. I spend too much time reading British newspapers and watching British television."

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 26 Oct 02 - 02:27 PM

Belfast whats your comments on the recent bomb attempt? Do not bother to answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 26 Oct 02 - 02:36 PM

"I don't know much about the Irish situation. I spend too much time reading British newspapers and watching British television."

Maybe you should tell him that the Irish prime minister will not share government with SF while they have connection to a private army.

The fact that information was found proves the point that there was a spy ring, it make no difference how you sugar coat it or point to others.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Oct 02 - 02:46 PM

What about the nat/rep who do not want the GFA to work either, the CIRA have tried to murder people last Friday,to use some's reasoning I'd rather have dirty tricks which cost no lives compared to dirty deeds which take live's.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Oct 02 - 03:02 PM

If information was found which could not have been obtained except by illegal means, that would indicate that illegal means were used in obtaining the information. Whether that is "spying" or not is a matter of definition. I suspect that a raid on most newspapers and political,parties could well come up with information that had been obtained illegally. Probably including the addresses of people who would rather not have their addresses known.

The important thing is whether the information has been gathered with the intention of using it to wage war or carry out assassinations. (Not "would be useful" in such an eventuality - anything can be useful, including many things which could be useful for other purposes.) That hasn't been demonstrated in this case, and I suggest it doesn't seem likely in the overall circumstances.

As for Bertie Aherne's much quoted statement about not sharing government with Sinn Fein, I'd view that with as much scepticism as that of any politician making a similar statement in the context of a political set-up dependent on building coalitions where Sinn Fein's support was not needed. If he needs Sinn Fein support at some future time, I predict he'll make a deal. Or some one else will.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST,Ireland
Date: 26 Oct 02 - 03:03 PM

02:46 pm was my post.

Now that people are willng to resort to bombing again,all it now takes to to show the effect of the IRA having the personal details of security forces is to plant a bomb out side a security force members home.

The British Army Bomb Squad dealt with the bomb,the PSNI risked their lives when they were given the wrong details and had to search for the van and then clear the area, not knowing when the bomb would go off.

It is time for the nat/republicans to take responsibility for their part in the failing of the GFA. And the excuse that it is a few dissidents does not wash those few dissidents could have presented use with quite a few dead from both sides.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 08:17 AM

The point that the latest incidents bring out is that it doesn't need the IRA as such to start bombing for bombing to start.

There are enough people out there with the knowledge of how to do this kind of thing, on both sides. Focussing all the attention on the IRA is looking in the wrong direction. That's not where the real danger lies, and there is good reason to think in fact that it is neutralising a lot of potential dangers.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: belfast
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 08:43 AM

"Belfast whats your comments on the recent bomb attempt? Do not bother to answer."

Fair enough. Oh, apart from the fact that it might have killed me, members of my family, friends, neighbours or fellow-citizens. So, to put it mildly, I'm not really in favour of such activity.

And it has been pointed out to me that my sweeping generalisation about journalists was simplistic. Good point . This is a piece in the Guardian about the raids
CLICK HERE

An earlier post states, "The fact that information was found proves the point that there was a spy ring, it make no difference how you sugar coat it or point to others." Now, there is no law requires us to stick to logic but this doesn't even pretend to commonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST,Ireland
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 08:44 AM

These groups are linked they know each other, members in SF know who these people are and do not do the right thing and report them to the proper authorities. They are letting these people run around trying to murder those they want to represent.

We hear how such and such an inquiry is doing this that and the other to bring those who colluded with whatever terrorist to justice. Should the same action not be taken with regards to the IRA and it's spin off's?

One point though the simplistic bomb could indicate a lack of supplies, two pipe bombs and petrol rather than semtex.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: belfast
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 09:10 AM

Oh dear. Can we try to be reasonable? Saying a thing is so don't make it so. The IRA has been accused of murdering dissident republicans. I don't know whether they have or not. It's not impossible. But I do know that no one has been arrested and that not a single shred of evidence has been produced. The IRA has been accused of colluding with dissident republicans. See the previous three sentences.

None of this will prevent statements being made about events here as if they were accepted fact and incontrovertible truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST,Ireland
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 09:22 AM

Who is to say those who have the information will not join the dissidents? It is not worth taking the chance.

If the spying was in response to the unionists leaking info etc,I would have no problem with that, giving them a taste of their own medicine so to speak.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST,Ireland
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 10:10 AM

Belfast what in heavens name are you on about?

"Oh dear. Can we try to be reasonable? Saying a thing is so don't make it so". Martin McGuiness tried that, saying he was not in the IRA and wanted people to believe it probably most of all himself.

Do you honestly expect people to believe that the IRA do not know who their dissidents are. They have to know, to break away from the IRA you have to be part of it in the first place.

SF call for all sorts of inquires,why not into the IRA and it's spin offs. Here is a starter who was responsible for the murdering and disposing of so called informers.

Why are those who were told to get out of Ireland not coming back? Who told these people to leave and who is going to enforce the so called expulsion order if they do come back?

If these people were to come back en mass would we see a spate of punishment shootings or killings?

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: belfast
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 10:45 AM

Martin McGuinness has admitted that he was a member of the IRA and never claimed that he wasn't. Or are you claiming that he is still a member? I have no way of knowing this one way or the other. If you want to insist that he is, that's all right but don't expect people to accept it as fact just because you really, really believe it.

Yes, everyone knows the names of some dissident Republicans. Recently I read an article by one in the Observer. But being a dissident Republican is not a crime.

Have the IRA committed murder and other actions which even by their own rules were criminal? Yes. And so has, for example, David Ervine whose vote David Trimble relied on to become First Minister.

And what next? Oh yes, people who have been ordered to leave the country. To be honest I know very little about this but you seem be implying there there's an awful lot of them. I hadn't thought so but I've been wrong before. As I said, I don't know. But I have a feeling that you don't really care. You seem to be looking for just another stick. I mean, there's no shortage of things to blame the IRA for, but attacking them for what you think they might do in the future? Aw, come on.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST,Ireland
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 11:26 AM

If you want to see it as a stick to beat the IRA that is your prerogative. But do not trivialise the fact that people are afraid to return, or how many there are expelled, it was after all the IRA who said to these people they would get punished/murdered if they returned, no time limit, so by all means it can happen in the future. What are you saying the IRA are no accountable for their actions?

No one has lifted the threat so in real terms the IRA are still a threat to these people,it is them who used the threat of violence in the future to enforce their laws. And incase your that sensitive the loyalists do it also that does not make any of it right.

If the threat is not serious why did the man approach McGuiness outside Westminster asking for help in getting the expulsion order to be lifted on him,if the threat of violence was not real why did he not fly home on the same flight with McGuiness.

McGuiness has on numerous occasions denied membership of the IRA.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: belfast
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 12:16 PM

I do not regard punishment beatings as trivial and I couldn't trivialise them if I wanted. All I have done is confess my lack of knowledge. No shortage of pub gossip, needless to say, and sometimes I have seen the same pub gossip and specualtion reported by journalists as simple fact. And I apologise for repeating myself but there is little point in condemning the IRA for what you think they might do. For example, I have little doubt that Loyalists will continue to murder Roman Catholics (and each other) but I have no way of proving it or expecting anyone to accept my opinions as some kind of evidence.

As for McGuinness, I'm sorry if my earlier remarks lacked clarity. He says that he is not now a member of the IRA. I don't think he has claimed that he was never a member. If I'm wrong I'm sure you will be able to show me where. Given that I can only repeat what I said before.

"Martin McGuinness has admitted that he was a member of the IRA and never claimed that he wasn't. Or are you claiming that he is still a member? I have no way of knowing this one way or the other. If you want to insist that he is, that's all right but don't expect people to accept it as fact just because you really, really believe it."

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 12:36 PM

So if the IRA put its hands up to everything it's been involved in and announced it was disbanding tomorrow and ordered all its members to hand in their arms and all that - does anyone really think that would have the consequence that the existing ceasefire would be maintained and that all violence or intimidation would cease?

Or isn't it only too likely that things would be likely to get a great deal worse? Catastrophically worse perhaps.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST,Ireland
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 12:50 PM

I'll accept your point on McGuinness,but not on the threat of violence which was put to those who were expelled.

It is not what I think they might do, it is what they said they will do to those they expelled, thus offering future violence to those who go against the expulsion. Sound enough basis for my point unless the IRA were just slabbering.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: The Pooka
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 12:54 PM

(I'm gonna regret coming back here...oh well...)

It is my understanding & recollection that (now former, I guess - ?) NI Education Minister Martin McGuinness has publicly acknowledged---in news interviews, and I *thought* also as a sworn witness at the Bloody Sunday inquiry (??)---having been second-in-command of the Derry brigade of the Provisional IRA on Bloody Sunday. I believe he stated categorically that he discharged no weapon; and, more circuitously, that (quote) "There is no evidence that I was armed". (Me, I should think a "second-in-command" would damn well be armed.)

McGuinness has also stated that the IRA has done some very bad things during the modern Troubles.

Please feel free to correct any & all factual inaccuracies in this recollection, which I have not re-corroborated by recent research.

Now, I'll try to stay away again.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST,Ireland
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 01:08 PM

Sorry Belfast, try this http://politics.guardian.co.uk/devolvedpolitics/story/0,9137,481305,00.html

Here it is if you do not want to follow the link: from Leader
Tuesday May 1, 2001
The Guardian
Now Mr Adams' partner in the republican leadership has broken that convention. Martin McGuinness has ended decades of denial and hedging to admit what close observers said they always knew: that he was a senior figure in the IRA, serving as the organisation's number two in Derry at the time of the Bloody Sunday massacre in 1972.

Suspose the Guardian jurnos like a pint aswell, only joking.

McG of H, are you under the impression that the IRA will prevent the dissidents from taking over, what happened on Friday? Being the most influentuential of all the terrorists/paramilitaries in Ireland thay do set the pace. If they say it's over it is, Adams admits the violence sets the peace process back,if he can do that then the loyalist crowd can and we can get back to the GFA again.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: belfast
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 01:11 PM

To quote the Pooka "I'm gonna regret coming back here...oh well..."

I know exactly how you feel, Pooka. I said to myself when I noticed this thread that I would only contribute to point what I saw to be errors of fact. But, like most other people, I can often be confused about what is an objective fact and what is my opinion.

But now it's cold wet Sunday night and it's time I was getting ready to go out and listen to some fine music and songs. Oh yes, and have a couple of pints. And hope that I don't end up in any discussions about politics.

To quote the Pooka once more, "Now, I'll try to stay away again."

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 02:23 PM

Being the most influential of all the terrorists/paramilitaries in Ireland they do set the pace. If they say it's over it is.

I imagine the thinking would be along the lines that, were the IRA to cease to be a paramilitary force, it would cease to have that kind of influence; and an alternative republican paramilitary force would move into place, especially if there were any sectarian violence, perhaps associated with loyalist paramilitaries. That's what happened with the Official IRA all those years ago.

I'd also think it highly likely that the IRA will be coming down on any unauthorised bombers, most especially any from within its own ranks, and probably quite effectively. "Quite effectively" doesn't mean 100% effective.

And it's probably more complicated than that, with bluffs and counter-bluffs and dirty tricks and all.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST,Ron
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 03:27 PM

"Please God, Give me the strength to keep my mouth shut"

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST,Ireland
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 05:14 PM

Thanks for correcting my spelling McG of H,so what your saying is the IRA are there to stop others getting out of hand or a far worse group taking rhe IRA's place,be hard to find one. Better the devil you know,I'd rather we had no devils at all.

The IRA will go but only in their own time and not at the behest of the British and when that happens were will that leave your theory.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 06:07 PM

Essentially that is how I see it, Ireland. "Hard to find a worse one"? How about the IRA in say 1975? Things change, too slowly, but they change.

Devils? No, and nor are the soldiers in the British Army. Human beings, acting the way human beings act in the situations they find themselves.

In time the IRA will turn into an Old Comrades Association, and die off - and some day there'll be Re-enactment Organisations like the Sealed Knot and so forth playing at being Cavaliers and Roundheads, when the memories of what it was really like have died away, and the divisions seem quaint and strange and a bit esoteric.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 08:19 AM

Belfast, surely you know that the phrase "Roman Catholics" is displeasing to a lot of Catholics. And here's you coming on all liberal and rational. I had noted before your authorship of a song about the Belfast Shipyards but you ignored my comments. What are you trying to hide?

(You do know I'm only "sleggin", don't you?)

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 07:20 AM

Ireland what about a music or song contribution, ag g`wan.
Some chance.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: belfast
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 10:01 AM

Belfast, surely you know that the phrase "Roman Catholics" is displeasing to a lot of Catholics.

Ah well, sucked back into this thread by the need to apologise. My friends from a Catholic background assure me that they would take no offense (they have been called worse) but that some might. So I make a small apology.   

I suspect that our guest, with his use of the verb "to sleg", knows somewhat more about life here than he would pretend. But still, a straight question deserves a straight answer.

My agenda. I am an atheist (hardline, dyed-in-the-wool) and a socialist (hardline, dyed-in-the-wool). And yet I once managed to achieve a remarkable unanimity of opinion from a couple of friends, one Protestant and one Catholic. They both agreed that I would probably burn in hell for eternity.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Bagpuss
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 10:33 AM

And as if Norn Iron didn't have enough problems with bigotry and hatred....

Blicky

BNP to stand for election in Northern Ireland
The British National Party is to fight elections in Northern Ireland for the first time.

The far-right group is to field a candidate at the next European elections.

A spokesman in Belfast says the party will urge voters to back its vision of keeping out asylum seekers and saving manufacturing jobs.

He said: "This will give people in Northern Ireland a genuine alternative to sectarian, tribal politics."

But the SDLP's Alban Maginness claims the brand of racism, sectarianism and ultra-nationalism offered by the BNP is not welcome.

The North Belfast MLA said: "Northern Ireland already has enough political madmen and cranks so there really is no need for this political export from Britain."

The move was ratified during a BNP meeting in the greater Belfast area last month attended by party leader Nick Griffin.

With fewer than 100 members in Northern Ireland, activists have set a £10,000 fundraising target to stage an effective campaign in the June 2004 poll.

Limited funds forced the BNP to abandon plans to contest Stormont Assembly elections which were set for next May before devolution was suspended.

"(The European election) is better value because we only need to get a £1,000 deposit rather than the expenses of individual constituencies," the spokesman said.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 01:24 PM

Belfast, I really was only sleggin'. Don't be so touchy. We don't really care if you say catholics or roman catholics. I have read and appreciated your postings to this thread. You seem to know what you're talking about and you obviously have on the ground knowledge of what's going on. And you can't say that about everybody.