BS: Canada Issues Caution on Travel to U.S.

Subject: BS: Canada Issues Caution on Travel to U.S.
From: GUEST,What do you think?
Date: 31 Oct 02 - 10:42 AM

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20021030/wl_nm/canada_usa_dc_3

Highlights below:

OTTAWA (Reuters) - Canada, in a highly unusual travel warning, on Wednesday urged Canadian citizens born in countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia to think carefully before entering the United States, saying they could fall afoul of tough new U.S. anti-terrorism laws.

The Foreign Ministry said it issued the advisory after Washington stipulated that anyone born in Iran, Iraq, Libya, Sudan, or Syria needed to be photographed and fingerprinted on arrival in the United States.

This includes citizens of Canada, a country which is traditionally regarded as one of the closest allies of the United States.

...

Ottawa's travel warning follows the controversial deportation of a Canadian citizen by the United States to Syria, his birthplace, earlier this month.

...

U.S. critics charge that Canada's immigration system does not do enough to weed out militants who might want to launch attacks in the United States. Graham said he had stressed to U.S. officials that all immigrants had to go through tough security screening before coming to Canada.

...

Hussein Amery, president of the National Council on Canada-Arab Relations, said the U.S. rules were a clear case of racial profiling and urged Ottawa to toughen its stance.

"It certainly looks, smells and feels like racism...the Americans are certainly not treating Canadians as friends when they do this," he added, referring to the Arar case.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Issues Caution on Travel to U.S.
From: Willie-O
Date: 31 Oct 02 - 11:42 AM

In theory this would be just a minor inconvenience, albeit an intrusive one, visited upon particular Canadian citizens by US Customs & Immigration.

But the case mentioned was more than a minor inconvenience. The subject was a Canadian born in Syria, who hadn't been there in many many years. He was going through JFK on his way home to Ottawa when he was arrested by US immigration officials. He was held for a week, then deported, not to Canada where he is a respected and established citizen, but to somewhere in the middle east. I say somewhere, because they supposedly sent him to Syria, but he eventually turned up in Jordan. His wife was freaking out, she didn't know where he was for weeks. Ironically, the LAST place he would have chosen to go was Syria, where he was subject to arrest for not having done his military service.

The reason the Americans stopped him may have been a case of mistaken identity. He was mistaken for someone else who US immigration says "knows someone who is a member of Al-Quaeda". So, it was guilt by association but they had the wrong guy to start with, then deported him to a different place than they said they were going to, neither of which was his home.

Ultimately I guess the Americans can keep whomever they decide to reject out of the U.S.--they've been known to keep me from entering there, although not in a few decades--but it is bizarre that they think they can keep Canadians from entering Canada.

Note: ALL of the Sept 11 hijackers entered the U.S. legally, a few from Canada, a few from Mexico, and the rest directly from overseas. So it is disingenuous for US Immigration to point fingers at our immigration policies.

W-O

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Issues Caution on Travel to U.S.
From: TIA
Date: 31 Oct 02 - 11:49 AM

Many US go'vt agencies are a bit inept. INS is completely bass ackwards. They can successfully stop or deport harmless or even potentially productive visitors, immigrants and students, but can't begin to keep out the real baddies! I have U.S.-citizen nieces who happen to reside in a predominantly muslim african country. Apparently this makes them terrorists.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Issues Caution on Travel to U.S.
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 31 Oct 02 - 12:03 PM

I thought that this was a reference to a previous thread where the question "why can't I own a Canadian?" was asked.

Seriously, though, racial profiling (more correctly here, country of origin profiling) is a favorite tool of law enfarcement (not a sp error).

With all the PC alerts here I guess bigots (politically correct ones, at any rate) need to find a minority they can safely discriminate against. The cop shows and films seem to be focussing on Russians and mid-Easterners these days.

It all comes back to one clear fact: This is a white, anglo-saxon (the only hyphenation tolerated) protestant, English speaking, country, boy(o) and there are those who intend to keep it that way.

When the next terrorist extravangza occurs (and it WILL) all sorts of discriminatory behavior will be unleashed.

It's the Amurrican way (unfortunately)

In the meantime it behooves those of us who would ask questions BEFORE we shoot to be sensitive to and alert for such unfortunate occurances as sending Canadians, or anyone else, anywhere other than back to their hotels.

I am very much afraid of the whole concept of "Homeland Security", There are numerous agencies already in existance that should be able to keep us safe. Wasn't Homeland Security the task of such agencies as; The Gestapo, the Volpos, The NKVD, The Douzieme Bureau and MI-6?

CB

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Issues Caution on Travel to U.S.
From: catspaw49
Date: 31 Oct 02 - 12:14 PM

"Seems to be racial profiling..."


Well gee, duh....Do you think so???

Anyone with the sense to poor piss out of a boot has by now at least partially figured out that what once passed for civil rights in the United States has been the foremost casualty of 9/11 and has become the most obvious victory for Bush and Company in their 'War on Terrorism.' It's a shame that since we are doing this profiling bit that one of the categories isn't "Dickheads".....If we could deport Dickheads, we could send George and Friends back to any country stupid enough to take them. I mean the guy is certainly a dick...not even a hard-on...just a dick with a smirk.

"Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she with silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

ATTENTION ALL---Lady Liberty has left the harbor.


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Issues Caution on Travel to U.S.
From: DougR
Date: 31 Oct 02 - 12:26 PM

The INS in the U. S. needs a MAJOR overhaul.

On profiling: those that have done the U. S. harm are not little old ladies in tennis shoes. They do have recognizable characteristics. Yet at our airports, security is as likely to shake down the little old lady in tennis shoes, as they are people with those recognizable characteristics. Does that make sense to you?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Issues Caution on Travel to U.S.
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Oct 02 - 01:02 PM

INS always has been a weenie organization. They pick the easy targets, stomping on some poor Mexican who wants to earn a dollar or two working at some menial job that that you can't get an American to take while they let some real monsters run free. It's pretty evident that since 9/11, the U.S. government has been suffering from "headless chicken syndrome."

Citizenship should be the criterion. If the traveler is a Canadian citizen, it shouldn't matter where he or she was born. Or their parents.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Issues Caution on Travel to U.S.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Oct 02 - 08:46 PM

Actually, I've always been somewhat cautious about traveling to the USA, and I am even more so since Sept. 11th...

It's a nice place to visit once you get there, but getting across the damn border is hard on the nerves. I wouldn't even think about trying it if I had an Arabic background.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Issues Caution on Travel to U.S.
From: Troll
Date: 01 Nov 02 - 09:14 AM

From what I've heard, the security people at the airports are not ALLOWED to stop persons with middle-eastern features or Arabic sounding names.
That would be racial profiling and thats not PC. Never mind that the alleged perpetrators or the 9/11 incident (see how it gets played down?) were of Middle-eastern extraction.
"Homeland Security" WILL be enacted and even more of OUR liberties will be gone but at least the Saudis won't be upset because we won't be doing any racial profiling so their people won't be embarassed. And if a purported terrorist slips through...oh well, at least those killed in the next "incident' can die knowing that THEIR country didn't use racial profiling.

troll

If I sound a little bitter, well...it's been a long week.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Issues Caution on Travel to U.S.
From: Peter T.
Date: 01 Nov 02 - 11:55 AM

I don't believe that any of the terrorists of 9/11 entered through Canada. There were rumours that turned out not to be true. If they had, we (Canadians) would have had an unholy stink about it.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Issues Caution on Travel to U.S.
From: Willie-O
Date: 01 Nov 02 - 12:15 PM

Peter, I'm unclear about that now myself. It was reported specifically that some of the hjcakers arrived on the boat run from Nova Scotia to Bar Harbour Maine. But there is no doubt that none of them entered Canada legally and then snuck across the longest "undefended" border. None of them were Canadian citizens or residents. They all presented themselves at U.S. customs, were allowed to enter the country, then went off to flight school or whatever. If Canada didn't exist at all, there would still have been a 9/11 attack.

However, we would be stupid to be completely complacent.   We are not immune, we've had our share of hosting people with evil intentions. One Air India bombing was one more than should ever have happened.

And Troll, you're completely out to lunch. Good job it's lunchtime.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Issues Caution on Travel to U.S.
From: Peter T.
Date: 01 Nov 02 - 01:00 PM

I believe that their entry from Nova Scotia was one of the rumours that was untrue. I am prepared to be wrong, but if they had entered from Nova Scotia, all hell would have broken loose in Canada Customs, Parliament, etc. They would have had to have been "lurking" somewhere in Canada, and we would have had days and days of it in the press. There was nothing like that.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Issues Caution on Travel to U.S.
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Nov 02 - 05:07 PM

Pretty damned ugly of those Americans watching their borders carefully, keeping track of people coming into their country, especially from countries that harbor large populations of haters of American (and other western)cultures.

Why you'd think those visitors didn't have rights protected by the American Constitution!

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Issues Caution on Travel to U.S.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Nov 02 - 05:24 PM

Well, I've seldom been under the illusion that the American Constitution protected me... :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Issues Caution on Travel to U.S.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Nov 02 - 05:43 PM

By the way, I might mention that there are a certain number of US Customs officials who are little closet Hitlers with a sadistic desire to terrorize and dominate people. Their uniform gives them the authority to do it with impunity. I can recount numerous horror stories of unbelievable treatment meted out to totally harmless and innocent people I have known who were attempting to cross the border.

And guess what...Canadian Customs officials are equally bad in this respect, and always have been.

I think it's a job that either attracts...or helps to create...this type of abusive personality.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Issues Caution on Travel to U.S.
From: DougR
Date: 01 Nov 02 - 06:34 PM

Well, L.H., I don't know. I've seen your picture, and if I were a border agent ...I don't know. :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Issues Caution on Travel to U.S.
From: kendall
Date: 01 Nov 02 - 08:57 PM

Little old ladies? Hell, they even shook ME down.
They just grabbed a Frenchman from Quebec who crossed the border with a gun. He is a convicted felon in CAnada. That happened right here in Maine.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Issues Caution on Travel to U.S.
From: DougR
Date: 01 Nov 02 - 09:59 PM

Why did they grab him? He probably heard the U. S. was a dangerous place and was just carrying the sidearm to defend himself! If they ever grab you, Kendall, they will have me to answer to! :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Issues Caution on Travel to U.S.
From: raredance
Date: 01 Nov 02 - 10:10 PM

Let's not forget the fact that the US has chiggers might have played a role in Canada's warning.

rich r

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Issues Caution on Travel to U.S.
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 01 Nov 02 - 10:41 PM

Doug, I've stood next to little Hawk, and if I was a Custom's agent, I'd have him spread-eagled on the floor before you could say 'Lee Greenwood'!

Full body search...and maybe a second one for good measure!

Seriously, Doug. You have nothing to worry about with Little Hawk. I doubt if the President of the World Wide Shatner fan club is a threat to ANYONE'S security.

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Issues Caution on Travel to U.S.
From: DougR
Date: 01 Nov 02 - 11:43 PM

Well, you're probably right, Rick, but what with all the red, blue, yellow and green warnings, one never knows. One might take him for a Cuban trying to sneak into the U. S. from Canada. I think were he to erase that tatoo on his chest ...the one that reads, "Castro for President," though, he might have smooth sailing. I just dunno.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Issues Caution on Travel to U.S.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Nov 02 - 02:45 PM

Ha! Actually, there no doubt ARE Cubans trying to sneak into the USA from Canada. There are lots of 'em in Toronto.

Why the hell they would want to leave paradise, come to chilly Canada, and then try to sneak into the USA is beyond me...but of course you can't get Big Macs in Cuba! Yeah, that must be it. Or else it's the DVD players, and the Rap clubs...

I am well aware that my long hair trips an alarm signal in certain border officials whose brains have atrophied from living a middle class lifestyle for way too long, but I have remedies for that.

1. I dress neatly

2. I have a clean car

3. I make sure the car isn't full of a ton of stuff

4. My ID is all in order

5. I answer their questions politely, and add nothing extra

6. I never argue with them. Never.

7. I tell them what they want to hear (boring, ordinary stuff)

These six methods work great with cops too! Try 'em...

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Issues Caution on Travel to U.S.
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Nov 02 - 03:01 PM

I see that Rohinton Mistry, one of the world's great writers (Canadian of Indian descent) is cancelling his new book tour in the U.S. because of persistent harassment. He can join the Farley Mowat club, I guess.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Issues Caution on Travel to U.S.
From: kendall
Date: 02 Nov 02 - 03:01 PM

Jeez Doug, I didn't know you cared! It may interest you to know that I am going to vote for a republican on Tuesday. Why? because the democrat is a crook. It's a minor public office, so, he can't do any real damage. LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Issues Caution on Travel to U.S.
From: Willie-O
Date: 02 Nov 02 - 04:36 PM

LH's formula works great for me, too, except I'm not much good with 2 and 3.

The three things I would add are,

1. Whatever you tell them, have yourself convinced beforehand that it's the truth.

2. Never Volunteer Information. Answer ONLY the exact question that is asked. LH said this but it's the golden rule.

3. Be prepared to answer in a word or two "what do you do for a living?", and don't say "musician" unless you have documents letting you play for money in the states--or Canada. "Carpenter" is always good, if you look like one, and don't have all your tools with you.

I had an interesting non-verbal exchange with the US customs guy enroute to the Getaway. I told him I was going to a "music weekend thing"--after all, I had a bunch of instruments in plain view-- and that I was a full-time student. He still wanted to know how I made a living, so I told him the truth, "I'm mooching off my wife's income".
"What's in that brown case?"
"That's a mandolin."
"OK, have a great day" and I drove off.

Somehow I got the impression that he might be a picker himself and if I didn't incriminate myself by saying I play music for money, he wasn't going to go out of his way to hassle me.

Willie-O

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Issues Caution on Travel to U.S.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Nov 02 - 05:45 PM

Right on, Willie. Not volunteering information is crucial! Never volunteer anything to a customs official or a cop.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Issues Caution on Travel to U.S.
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 02 Nov 02 - 06:29 PM

LH, it's a good thing they don't ask if you know how to count!

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Issues Caution on Travel to U.S.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Nov 02 - 12:13 AM

Right...

Um...

Yeah.

Okay, so...

Whaddya mean? :-)

I think another profession that's good to use is "undertaker"....they'll move you on quickly, just to get rid of you. "Bricklayer" is also good, I think....people who lay bricks are seldom socially disruptive and they have a strong foundation.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Issues Caution on Travel to U.S.
From: DougR
Date: 03 Nov 02 - 04:26 PM

Kendall: You voting for a Republican????!!! Will wonders never cease?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Issues Caution on Travel to U.S.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Nov 02 - 04:36 PM

Never, Doug! That's the neat thing about life.

- LH