BS: Other fantasy writers

Subject: BS: Other fantasy writers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 07:34 AM

Seeing as I started the Two Towers thread I thought I would see what other fantasy writers people were into. For my two penn'urth from the east of the pond, David Gemmil and from t'other side Bob Salvatore. I am currently reading the first of the latest Drizt trilogy - The 1000 Orcs.

I think both writers are brilliant with plots and storylines far more complex than JRRT. The characterisations and developments are also much deeper but I do find that both rely rather heavily on the 'Flawed Hero' principle and very dark dramatisation - often bordering on horror. Nothing wrong with that I must add. Just conversation points;-)

Although I must add that I belive Tolkien is still master of invention - how many other put as much work into creating whole new langauges, cultures and geographies? He also manages to keep religion and Gods out of his works which few others have suceeded in. Still - I would like this thread to stay away from Mr T himself except for comparative purposes.

Other current fantasy writers I enjoy are Eddings, Brookes and, of course, Pratchett. Writers in the same Genre of old I have read are Haggard, Peake and Lewis.

Anyone want to add? Rant and Rave? Tell me this is not folk;-)

Cheers

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: BS: Other fantasy writers
From: JennyO
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 08:14 AM

I'm very fond of Douglas Adams - All the Hitchhikers Guide books. I was actually introduced to them from watching the TV series and then graduated to the books. I realize this might be somewhat more lighthearted than what you have in mind, but I also enjoy Tolkien. It depends what frame of mind I am in.

Jenny

Subject: RE: BS: Other fantasy writers
From: Naemanson
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 08:35 AM

Salvatore is good, all right. I'm not sure I would agree with you on "...storylines far more complex than JRRT." But the characters are troubled and yet have good relationships. The women in the stories are treated well and are strong and independent. My daughter introduced me to his work.

I have an amusing story about Salvatore. He came to a local bookstore to meet his fans and sign books. I had purchased a set of his books as a Christmas present for my daughter. My girlfriend had a backpack she used as a pruse so I put the books in a brown paper bag and she carried them for me. We (me, my girlfriend, my daughter, and my nephew) went to meet Mr. Salvatore. My daughter carried some of her books for signing. In the confusion around the table I managed to get him to sign the presents for me without my daughter being any the wiser. On Christmas morning she was pleased and surprised with the books and amused at what Salvatore had written. In the third book he wrote, "Watch out for your father, he's sneaky!"

I also very much enjoyed the Thomas Covenant books by Steven Donaldson. I haven't enjoyed many of his other books though.

Subject: RE: BS: Other fantasy writers
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 08:41 AM

Whilst he may not be strictly classed as fantasy William Horwood is among my top of the list; The Stornor Eagles & Skallagrigg are absolutely wonderful books. Funnily enough I can't seem to get to grips with the Duncton Wood Series. Robin Hobb & Robert Holdstock are also a favourites of mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Other fantasy writers
From: Maryrrf
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 08:50 AM

Robert Jordan has to be one of the best (second to Tolkein, of course) for his "Wheel of Time" series. Unfortunately the series got so complicated and convoluted (and you have to wait a year or so between each new installment) that I finally lost track of things and so haven't read his last two - because I'd have to go back and review the other five volumes in order to understand the story line. I think he should have wrapped things up somewhere around Book Five. I remember once I was reading by myself at home, totally engrossed in the story. There are some very scary characters in the series called "Trollocks" which are half man half beast. Suddenly there came a loud knock on my door and a nearly jumped out of my skin - my first panicky thought was that it was a trollock! That's how well he pulls you into this fantasy world he's invented. Great stuff, I highly recommend his books!

Subject: RE: BS: Other fantasy writers
From: Midchuck
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 09:02 AM

The "Vlat Taltos" series by Steven Brust are great. I just finished the most recent one yesterday, when I should have been wrapping Christmas presents.

I recently read Glen Cook's entire "Black Company" series in one long orgy.

The Amber books by Zelazny bog down in their own complexities after a while - just like Jordan's books - but the first two are classics to me.

And I suppose most of you are to young to be familiar with Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser...

I can get satiated with Tolkien knock-offs fairly quickly, but there's a great deal more good stuff in the gray area between sci-fi and fantasy.

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: Other fantasy writers
From: mack/misophist
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 09:16 AM

Two writers from Tolkien's day deserve more recognition. The almost forgotten Charles Williams was very good indeed, although dated today. And C S Lewis did a lot of fine stuff other than The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe. Also from that period David Lindsay, Voyage to Arcturus. And never forget Borges.

Subject: RE: BS: Other fantasy writers
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 09:26 AM

Midchuck -- you and I are also of an age to remember that great Ballantine fantasy series in the mid-70s. Everything from "Orlando Furioso" to Lord Dunsany and some really obscure stuff like "A Voyage to Arcturus" by David Lindsay. The series was put together by Lin Carter, who wrote some fine stuff as well as collected the classics. More in the series was William Morris (Well at the World's End I & II) Eden Phillpotts "The Lavender Dragon," Ernest Bramah's "The Transmutation of Ling" and George MacDonald who wrote "Lilith" and "The Princess and the Goblin."

Fritz Leiber, Michael Moorcock, Peter Beagle, Evangeline Walton . . . and one of the finest, "The Circus of Dr. Lao" by Charles G. Finney.

I find myself disappointed in a lot of the modern stuff and Tolkien clones, but I really enjoy Anne McCaffrey, the humor of John DeChancey's "Castle" series and Terry Pratchett, and some of Charles de Lint's books.

I've gone on record before about Mervyn Peake and a few others.

Linn

Subject: RE: BS: Other fantasy writers
From: Maryrrf
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 09:45 AM

"The Chronicles of Narnia" by C.S.Lewis was my childhood favorite and I still go back and reread those books periodically. I gave my kids a bound set one year for Christmas and they weren't at all interested. Oh well!!! O, another good one - just finished reading "The Dragonbone Chair" - is Tad Williams. David Eddings has already been mentioned but he is quite entertaining also. The only problem is his plots tend to repeat themselves over and over and over - although the "young hero going on a quest" plot is so universal that I guess it's just a matter of how well the tale is told!

Subject: RE: BS: Other fantasy writers
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 10:03 AM

Piers Anthony has several series that are very good,
Anne McCafferty is one of my favorites. I've read so many I tend to get the authors names confused.
                                 mmm

Subject: RE: BS: Other fantasy writers
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 01:04 PM

Topping my list of "Fav Fantasy" are authors like

Guy Gavriel Kay
George RR Martin
Neil Gaiman
Stephen Donaldson (but for Mordants Need, NOT Thomas Covenant! Blech!)

Subject: RE: BS: Other fantasy writers
From: Amos
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 01:07 PM

There are so many to choose from that it is impossible to do, and fortunately not necessary. Among my favorites are myself and Jorge Luis Borges, an ontological master myth maker if ever there was one!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Other fantasy writers
From: michaelr
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 01:29 PM

Someone mentioned Tad Williams. His "Otherland" series is the best science/fantasy I've read in years. It all takes place in 3D virtual worlds that a secret cabal of super-wealthy industrialists build to ensure themselves immortality. Highly recommended!

Stephen Donaldson is another favorite, and I'd include both "The Mirror of Her Dreams" and the "Thomas Covenant" series, while his space-opera "Gap" series is quite twisted and misogynist.

I'd like Peter Jackson to film the "Covenant" series! I mentioned the books to George Lucas once, but he was too wrapped up in his own saga to care.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Other fantasy writers
From: KateG
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 01:36 PM

I was glad to see someone mention Ernest Brahmah...I'd been thinking about him recently and had forgotton his name. His stories are classic, I'll have to go dig them out and re-read them. Another good fantasy writer is Robin McKinley, her updates of classic fairytales are wonderful, fleshing out the characters and letting the darkness and humanity of the tales come through. Ursula K. LeGuin's Earthsea books. Elizabeth Moon's Deed of Paksennarion. Lois McMaster Bujold's Spirit Ring and Curse of Chalion...at last, someone drawing on non-Celtic sources. George McDonald, Peter S Beagle, and yes, I remember Fafnir and the Grey Mouser...are they even available these days? And while we're at it, Andrew Lang and the brothers Grimm. And of the making of books there is no end...THANK HEAVENS!

Subject: RE: BS: Other fantasy writers
From: Amergin
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 01:40 PM

I love the wheel of time books...I love how the characters grow from boys...to serious fighting men...I love how each book is just a segment of War....

I also love to read the Shannara books by Terry Brooks...and his magic kingdom for sale sold books...

and then there is Harry Turtledove....I try to read everything he puts out...love the idea of alternate history...and world wars with dragons and unicorns....

Subject: RE: BS: Other fantasy writers
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 01:50 PM

I grew up on a diet of Sci-Fi and stil think that Andre Norton's series Witch World was ground breaking in the blurring of lines between Science Fiction and Fantasy.
Anne McCaffrey is one of my favourites, both for the Dragons - a wonderfully constructed world and social system, and for straight Sci-Fi.
I have read the Thomas Covenant books, and various of the David Eddings sagas, and enjoyed them, but am not well up on the other current crop of Fantasy saga writers.
Another favourite writer of blurred fantasy is Clive Barker, who although he started writing straight Horror, moved with Weaveworld into a universe of fantastic beauty and grotesques. I find his writing style compelling, although sometimes it slides into the realm of the unpleasant.
J.G.Ballard - more fantastic and grotesque worlds, which although sold as science fiction, never really fitted with the rest of it. Then after I read Empire of the Sun, based around his experiences as a boy prisoner in Japanese prison camps during the second world war, his writing style suddenly took on a completely diferent perspective.
Just a few random thoughts on the topic.
Quack!
GtD!

Subject: RE: BS: Other fantasy writers
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 02:09 PM

A few years back I found some entertaining tellings of old Irish legends by a writer named Kenneth C.Flint, if I recall correctly.
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: BS: Other fantasy writers
From: Cluin
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 03:51 PM

If you liked, Flint's books, Geoff, try Gregory Frost's works along the same lines: "Tain" and "Remscéla".

I've read so much SF & Fantasy, both good and abominable (hey, how do you know the good with something to compare it to?), that it sometimes seems to blur together. Have to give a bow to the early writers of the fantasy field: Dunsany, Tolkien, Lewis, etc.

Some standouts, though:

Orson Scott Card's "Alvin Maker" series
John Myers Myers for "Silverlock" and "The Moon's Fire-Eating Daughter" (NOT a sequel to "Silverlock" though it was billed that way on the cover)
Alfred Bester's "The Stars My Destination" (still the best sci-fi novel I ever read)
Isaac Asimov's "Foundation" series (a close second)
Jostein Gaarder's "Sophie's World" (Yeah, I'd call it fantasy)
Charles DeLint for "Moonheart" and the Tamson House stuff set around Ottawa (mainly because I like the setting), but I'm not thrilled with his "Newford" stories, which all seem to be getting a bit too saccharine and monotonous; he's a fine imitator of Stephen King's character development, but, like King, his plot development is not the best (actually it is King's polt resolution that isn't so good). They both tell a good story though...

Plus a couple of surprising treasures:
Michael Shea's "Nifft the Lean" stories (dark, fast and cool!)
and Sterling Lanier's "Hiero" novels, the most readable, "ripping yarn"-style stuff on a post-apocalyptic Earth I've read.

Subject: RE: BS: Other fantasy writers
From: Cluin
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 04:04 PM

Polt???

Eejit! should be "plot"

Subject: RE: BS: Other fantasy writers
From: smallpiper
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 05:51 PM

Terry Pratchett - nuff said

Subject: RE: BS: Other fantasy writers
From: Lin in Kansas
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 02:07 AM

Clinton--I never thought the two of us would ever agree on anything--but Donaldson's Mordant (Mirror of Her Dreams) and any of the books by Guy Gavriel Kay are definitely on my favorites list.

I've gotten out of sci-fi/fantasy the last few years; age has caught up with me, I think, but Barbara Hambly's Darwath trilogy comes to mind, as well as her Sun Wolf books--oh, heck, I'll read almost anything by her, even her vampire books (not my usual cup of tea).

Another good one, who appears to be just starting out as he only has 3 books on the market so far, is Jim Butcher. He's got a whole detailed idea of how/why magic works and does a good job of sucking a reader into the story.

Lots of good stuff mentioned, everyone. I'm going to have to go raid the basement bookcases again. How am I supposed to ever get the solstice decorations done when I'm reading all the time?

Lin

Subject: RE: BS: Other fantasy writers
From: Haruo
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 02:28 AM

I really enjoyed, I could say vastly enjoyed, The Wandering Unicorn (original title simply El Unicórnio) by the Argentinian Manuel Mujica Láinez. It's one of the few books I've really wanted to try to translate from the Spanish, but I've never managed to acquire a copy (I got one through InterLibrary Loan once, but had to return it in two weeks). Amazon doesn't quote a price (Out of Stock), and Barnes & Noble don't even list it. However, the New Statesman reviewer's criticism of its ultimate tameness is, I'm afraid, justified. I recommend it as a fun and erudite read, not as serious social commentary.

Haruo

Subject: RE: BS: Other fantasy writers
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 10:05 AM

Sheri Tepper. If you've never read anything by her, try starting with "Raising the Stones". You'll be hooked for life.

Subject: RE: BS: Other fantasy writers
From: Grab
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 12:02 PM

"Grass" by Sheri Tepper is a recent acquisition. Absolutely stunning - I've got to read some more of her stuff. Thanks for the recommendation, Guest.

No nominations yet for Richard Matheson. "I Am Legend" and "The Incredible Shrinking Man" - both classics.

Donaldson is a good writer, but he's much too fond of repeating himself. He'll find a few favourite ultra-long, ultra-obscure words and then use them as much as possible throughout for no apparent reason. A writer who baffles with bullshit kind of annoys me. His Gap series suffers from that too - as an exercise in story-telling and characterisation, it's absolutely mind-blowing past anything else I've ever read, but he could really use a good editor/test-reader to cut out some of the crap. Mordant's Need is much more accessible than the Gap or Covenant series on that score.

David Eddings was fun initially, but I've got right sick of it now. Too much "let's build an N-part series of books to make some money" (where N is any number from 5 upwards)...

Kate, that's Fafhrd, not Fafnir! :-) You can get them as collections of all the stories now. The same with Michael Moorcock as well. Not greatly taken though - interesting from a historical view of "pulp" fantasy, but not the greatest stories.

Both Terry Brooks and Raymond Feist I'm kind of ambivalent about. The Shannara series has gone into sequel-meltdown, which is kind of a shame since the first two were pretty good. The first (Sword) was a blatant rip-off of LotR but good nonetheless, and the second one (Elfstones) was OK but with a stunning final battle-scene which makes me wish I was a film director. The rest kind of went downhill from there. Magical Kingdom was a bit the same - the first was not bad, but the rest just died. Feist is the same - "Magician" was good in parts (the arena scene is a particular stand-out) but some bits just sucked (the deus ex machina ending in particular), and I wasn't dead impressed with the other two either ("Silverthorn" and "Sethanon"). I've not read the rest of his Empire books after that.

I trust no-one needs telling to read Pratchett though! ;-)

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Other fantasy writers
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 12:26 PM

Also, anyone read the Keltiad series by Patricia Kenneally of Doors fame? And has Susan Cooper's The Dark is Rising series been mentioned? The latter was my daughter's favorite read aloud book in her pre-teen years.

Subject: RE: BS: Other fantasy writers
From: Haruo
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 01:17 PM

Certainly Szathmári's Vojaĝo al Kazohinio is one of the good ones (unfortunately not available in English to my knowledge), and no one has mentioned Dean [i.e. Jonathan] Swift, who provided the model for Szathmári's novel.

Haruo

Subject: RE: BS: Other fantasy writers
From: Micca
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 01:28 PM

Haruo,Re-Wandering Unicorn mentioned above, Powells in Portland,Oregon have several copies of this book in translation for sale and will mail to anywhere click here

Subject: RE: BS: Other fantasy writers
From: Haruo
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 01:43 PM

Thanks, Micca. Yeah, the English version isn't that hard to get, it's the Spanish that's rare (at least in the US, and my sister who lives in Oaxaca was unable to get it for me, too). I believe it was published in Argentina (though possibly in Spain or by a multinational Hispanophone publisher). I think it's out of print, though Amazon says "Out of stock" which may or may not mean the same thing.

Haruo

PS Powells have several copies of everything, don't they?

Subject: RE: BS: Other fantasy writers
From: Cluin
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 01:51 PM

Grab, I know what you mean... It seems the fantasy field is full of too damn many long series of books. Every time I pick one up at the store, it's always "Part 5 of.." or "Number 7 in the..." One reason I got out of reading the fantasy genre a few years ago for the most part. Besides, paperbacks are too damn expensive to buy (even 2nd hand sometimes) and my library never seems to keep the full series around. I wonder what the rationale behind having only parts 3 and 4 of a series of several available there. Just don't even bother with them then, I'd say...

And Guest, I personally didn't care for Kenneally's books and bailed after the first one.

Subject: RE: BS: Other fantasy writers
From: Poddy
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 03:20 PM

Robert Jordan, although I haven't finished the Wheel of Time series yet...got kinda bogged down after book 7 and am taking a break.

Mercedes Lackey. A lot of critics say she's repetitive, redundant and other words beginning with "r", but I love her anyway. She just tells a good story.

Orson Scott Card, although my favorite of his books are more sci-fi than fantasy, the Alvin book are good too. And Wyrms.

Margaret Weiss and Tracey Hickman for the first trilogy of DragonLance.

Elizabeth Ann Scarborough, especially for the Godmother series.

Wisechild, I don't know who the author is, but it's a beautiful story.

Neil Gaiman, Neverworld.

I'm leaving Tolkien off the list because although I loved the Hobbit and enjoyed the Fellowship, I haven't read any of the rest. Must withhold judgement.

I'm sure my list will be extended.

Subject: RE: BS: Other fantasy writers
From: Naemanson
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 04:02 PM

Anne McCaffrey - Pern is a wonderful world and the relationships between the dragons and their riders is marvelous. And the Harper's Hall is the best.

Bob Salvatore - My older daughter and I fought over reading the Drzzt books. We kept swiping them from one another.

C S Lewis - I didn't care for the Narnia series, I wasn't mature enough to enjoy juvenile literature. I loved Out Of The Silent Planet.

David Eddings - Great characters and interaction between the characters. Unfortunately those characters are usually so strong that there seems to be no real danger and thus, no suspense.

Douglas Adams - Brilliant! He has such a wonderful imagination. I get such a kick out of the Hitchhiker books and the others also stand brightly in my mind.

Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser - I have a compilation of all these stories. Good stuff over and over.

Guy Gavriel Kay - I fell in love with his books and devoured each one. Now I have to dig them out of their box and re-read them.

H. Rider Haggard - Fine adventure. It's been years since I read him but I've enjoyed everything I've read.

Harry Turtledove - I love his alternate histories, Guns Of The South and World Out Of Balance. I need to try his others.

Peter Beagle - While his other stuff is good I loved The Innkeeper's Song. If you want strong women fairly portrayed this is the book for you. Just watch out for the twist.

Piers Anthony - Xanth is fine but the story of the Indians in Pre-Spanish Florida was excellent.

Roger Zelazny - Lord Of Light, Amber, Roadmarks, etc. As was mentioned above the later Amber novels get somewhat complicated and I tended to lose my way in them but I dogged read every one. Lord of Light is my favorite.

Steven Donaldson - I have a soft spot for tormented heroes so Thomas Covenant was great. I consider him the hero I love to hate because he let so much happen that he could have prevented if only he believed.

Terry Brooks - The Shannara books were OK but I was turned off by the obvious Tolkien rip-off.

Other Offerings

I'm glad to see Terry Goodkind didn't make the cut. My kids and I tried to read Wizard's First Rule and couldn't get past the first few chapters. We dubbed it Wizard's First Drool.

Phillip Jose Farmer for his Riverworld Series

Mark Twain for Connecticut Yankee In King Arthur's Court

And my all time favorite C. J. Cherryh's books about Morgaine and Vanye. These two characters represent all the things I like in a book. She is grieving her lost companions and desperate to complete their mission. He is locked to her by his word and his love. She appears to be inhuman in her seemingly mindless quest while he suffers from the agony of being too human with too much compassion. Gotta dig those out too.

Subject: RE: BS: Other fantasy writers
From: michaelr
Date: 24 Dec 02 - 01:26 AM

Am I really the only one here who has read Tad Williams' "Otherland"?

You're missing out, friends...

Holiday Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Other fantasy writers
From: Raedwulf
Date: 24 Dec 02 - 08:21 PM

EXCELLENT

Terry Pratchett
Gene Wolfe
Robert Holdstock
Iain M. Banks (OK, so he's SF, so sue me, he's still bloody excellent! *g*)
Mervyn Peake (with the caveat of very little output)
Keith Roberts (for one absolutely beautiful book of linked short stories titled 'Pavane')
Fritz Leiber (when reading Fafhrd & Mouser - remember they were originally related, but standalone, short stories & treat 'em as such! They're not cohesive novels, they were never meant to be!)

DECENT

Andre Norton
Michael Scott Rohan
Louise Cooper
Patricia McKillip
Michael Moorcock (strong on imagery, short on plot, as a rule)
C.S.Lewis (can reasonably claim to be one of the founding fathers of Fantasy)
Roger Zelazny (Lord of Light is actually SF, guys! *g* I don't entirely buy the "too complex" argument on Amber, either. But like Wolfe he's a crossover F/SF author, for sure)
Ray Bradbury (no, seriously - he's written a few things that are... weird... to classify, more F than SF (Something Wicked This Way Comes, for a start) & are pure class)
Ursula le Guin (for Earthsea alone)

READABLE

Guy Gavriel Kay
Peter Morwood
Harry Turtledove
David Gemmill (too much of his stuff reads like a "history of battle tactics" manual, or stock adaptation of mythology...)

DODGY
Eddings (engaging, but lame - characters are cardboard cutouts, repetitive plot devices, & no atmosphere whatsoever as cardboard characters talk modern & act modern throughout...)
Jordan, Feist, Donaldson (all of these seem to have been compared to "Tolkien at his best", all of them seem (to me) to have been rated on their verbiage, rather than ability)

CRAP
Terry Brooks (started out with a blatant JRRT rip-off, 'nuff said)
Piers Anthony (cliched, moralistic, sanitized s**** - everthing's worked out by inane puzzles & no-one ever gets hurt!)

Ignoring quite a few authors on the way, but just my twopenn'orth... *g*

Subject: RE: BS: Other fantasy writers
From: MAG
Date: 24 Dec 02 - 11:09 PM

De Lint's good --

Jack of Shadows (I can't remember author)

Zelazny's Amber books have to be read in sequence, otherwise you cannot follow the plot lines, but reading them all (and I devoured them) is fun.

The Lieber books were way too sexist for my taste.

A newer children's author to check out is Eve Ibbotson -- Secret of Platform 13.

Subject: RE: BS: Other fantasy writers
From: GUEST,John
Date: 25 Dec 02 - 12:25 AM

There are far too many people out there supposedly 'the heir to Tolkein's mantle' who should
never have been let loose on the world, but judging from some mudcatters' choices above I'm
in a minority in disliking certain authors so I'll leave that alone other than to say that I most
definitely don't share the almost universal adulation of C.S Lewis. I read his 'Narnia' series
along with my children and quite enjoyed them, given that they WERE children's books, but I
tried to read the 'Silent Planet' books as an adult and found myself choking on Lewis's
political assumptions, at least as I took them to be. It seemed to me that he equated any-
thing left wing, from British Labour's rather mild Socialism, to hardline Communism, with
his evil cloud and that was a bit to much for me.
      To authors I do like; Robert Jordan, in spite of all his faults which others have already
written about, Mercedes Lackey, ditto, EXCEPT her urban fantasy, UGHHH, Elizabeth Moon,
Katherine Kerr, and,though I don't care much for either author alone, in my opinion the
'Empire' trilogy by Raymond Feist and Janny Wurts is excellent, however, to properly appreciate
what is going on you need to have read Feist's 'Magician', no particular chore, as it's
probably his best book.
                               John.

Subject: RE: BS: Other fantasy writers
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 25 Dec 02 - 11:07 AM

Dave the Gnome:

You said you wanted to keep this thread off Tolkien, and I would have honored that, except that you said:

"He also manages to keep religion and Gods out of his works which few others have succeeded in."

WRONG, WRONG, WRONG! Tolkien himself, replying to a review (which had reflected pretty much your view, but as a criticism rather than a compliment), said something like, "Clearly the reviewer has not read the book."

If you had said "out of The Hobbit", you'd be close to right. But reading "his works" brings in a whole cosmogony and pantheon, in the Silmarillion and the Lost Tales and the Unfinished Tales. While Eru, The One, is not mentioned in either The Hobbit or The Lord of the Rings, there are a number of reverent references (particularly to Elbereth) in The Lord of the Rings to the Valar, the next supernatural level down (what we might call angels, but are sometimes mistakenly referred to as "the gods" by Men) and indeed Gandalf and Saruman and other Istari, as well as Sauron and the Balrog are lesser members of that order.

I will grant you that he seems not to dwell on formalized religion and ritual anywhere, but there certainly are religion and gods, both implicitly and explicitly.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Other fantasy writers
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 25 Dec 02 - 12:06 PM

Anne McCaffrey is splendid, very high quality work... I'd say she has 'goodness' well within her sights! I like the way she is true to form, with characters that are consistant and deep, while they interact in unique and vivid scenarios... kind soul! ttr