Sedition, At What Point...

Subject: Sedition, At What Point...
From: EJ
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 11:49 AM

Sedition. At what point does our comments about the US government, our actions and even our thoughts concerning the upcoming Iraq thing and all the other things that concern us...At what point are we considered traitors, disloyal to our country, and so on and so on...We ARE being watched, recorded, told on and scrutinized. Orwell's Big Brother is alive and well and in our daily lives. At what point...

AND at what point in the near future will we be bar coded or chip implanted...

Subject: RE: Sedition, At What Point...
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 12:15 PM

My own notion is that until and unless our government does an overthrow of our constitutionally mandated process, we are safe in speaking up, indeed required to speak up. However, free speech requires others to stand up and support those who are being forceful and loud in their objections to what is happening to the constitution. This is, I think, where an informed electorate is essential.

In Nazi Germany, if the people had risen in defense of some members of their society, the government would have been halted in its tracks.

I just hope some of our elected leaders lead the way…

As for chip implantation, I hate to sound an Armageddon-ish theme (I'm afraid our president is being guided by his own version of the 'end times') but in my view, chips must be resisted at all costs. I can see the convenience and even logical side to it- a cashless society, no more identity theft, just a quick swipe across the forehead with a scanner for each purchase- but it alarms me that in the Bible it is mentioned and warned against, and that was in a day when that kind of technology was thousands of years away.   Makes me wonder just what they knew that I don't know! Skeptical as I may be of the Bible and organized religion of all kinds, I'm aware there is a whole lot I don't know.

Subject: RE: Sedition, At What Point...
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 03:36 PM

ID implants (about the size of a grain of rice) are available right now and some folks have voluntarily had them installed. Usually they (currently) contain medical info, and I could see them for that, especially if you have some real problems.

Benetton, among others, is implanting the same sort of thing in their clothing. When sold it will register the place, date, price, etc. and thereby allow better cost and stockage control. The data "chip" is never removed from the garment and can resist washing, etc.

I don't want a chip installed in my body, and I CERTAINLY don't want my clothes telling the government where I am and what I'm doing! Suppose I lend my brother a pair a pants and he...well, he's my brother and not even he is sure what he's going to do next.

Subject: RE: Sedition, At What Point...
From: beadie
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 04:50 PM

. . . . one nation, under guard, with liberty and justice [?] . . .

Subject: RE: Sedition, At What Point...
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 05:45 PM

The govt can still threaten to kill you etc for speaking your mind, but they're going to do that any if you DON'T speak your mind. Sept 11 was engineered to result in domestic repression at home and war overseas. Al Qeada was created and is still controlled by the CIA, and the 9-11 attacks were the actions of the organized criminals who have seized the U.S. govt. It's not sedition to speak out against that. It's un-American NOT to speak out against it.

Subject: RE: Sedition, At What Point...
From: GUEST,clint keller
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 06:09 PM

It says here in

THE BILL OF RIGHTS
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

This is a place where I'm a firm conservative. Along with that old Ku Kluxer Hugo Black, I think when the Bill of Rights says "Congress shall make no law... abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances," it means "Congress shall make NO law..."

clint

(And before some smartass says "crowded theater" to me, I'm talking about redress of grievances, and stuff like that there)

Subject: RE: Sedition, At What Point...
From: posterchild
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 06:28 PM

I think that the US government can change or amend the Constitution to suit itself, especially in times like the US is facing today. Demonstators were arrested today in Washington for speaking their thoughts. Think about it, taxes can be raised, new taxes or tariffs can be levied at any time. Laws can be changed or new laws can be enacted at any time. For and by and of the people? If the president of the US can go to war with IRAQ without the permission of the world, do you think your concerns really matter?

Subject: RE: Sedition, At What Point...
From: NicoleC
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 06:38 PM

You talk about sedition liks it's BAD thing... :) Not all definitions require the act of sedition to be treason or even insurrection. Some will say it's merely insolence and disobeying the government and discontented rabble-rousing. In which case, sedition is an essential component of democracy.

However, I'm guess you really mean *insurrection.*

IMO, in a democracy insurrection is the point where one attempts to overthrow a legitimately elected democratic government by means other than democratic means. "Democratic means" constitute such items as free speech, persuation, peaceful assembly, and, of course, voting. Citizens widely particpating in the open discourse of the quality and actions of an elected goverment is ESSENTIAL to democracy. Without it, it ain't democracy, it's just pretend.

On the other hand, any attempt to deny or subvert the democratic process by infringing on free speech and other democratic means of self-governance *IS* insurrection.

I.E. Calling the president inept and incompetant is democracy, although it's not particularly useful unless you can explain why you think so. Attempting to assassinate the president because you think he's inept and incompetant is insurrection.

Now to go out on a limb: A large percentage of the people in this country, myself included, think that the last "election" was anything but a legitimate exercise in democracy given the intervention of the Supreme Court. However, I would assert that given the majority opinion that the intervention was a necessity in the spirit of democracy (if not the letter), it would be rebellious to attempt to overthrow the current president by other than democratic means.

Subject: RE: Sedition, At What Point...
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 08:35 PM

"My country, right or wrong." is the same as "My Mother, drunk or sober".
                              W. C. Fields

Subject: RE: Sedition, At What Point...
From: khandu
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 08:52 PM

The best way to gain control of a people is to make them fear...Fear the "enemy out there". "We must stop the enemy! We may be called upon to sacrifice some of our rights in order to rout the enemy out. We may have to conduct unwarranted searches in order to find them. We may have to invade personal privacy in order to detect them. We may have to 'detain' those whom we consider questionable in order to discover the enemy among us. But we shall be doing so for our own safety!"

The fearful (if sufficiently frightened) would give up all rights freely to be protected from the enemy.

Even to the point of taking the chips.

"Love your Dad and your Mother,
But watch out for Big Brother"

Ken

Subject: RE: Sedition, At What Point...
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 08:54 PM

You know, I am less concerned about the government than my neighbors! The government has dumbed down a very significant part of the population and control them very easily with country music, Budweiser and NASCAR. These folks are real angry and will become the governemnts secret weapon indealing with "intellectuals" who question the government.

Daddy Bush taught his boys well to play on this *sub*class's willingness to stand up for "What's Right With America" aginst the, ahhh, "L-i-b-e-r-a-l-s". Yes, Bush has this class warfare thing down real well and when push comes to shove, he'll pull out his "with us or against us" crap and unlesh "Redneck America" America on the *thinking* people.

And that ain't just paranoa. Look around you and you'll see that the US has more and more rednecks than ever.

Yeah, someone's certainly gonna come along and say that Ol' Bobert has gone off the deep end with righteousness and bigitry here, but look around at your community and think about it.

Why do you think that Bush's {"Eduaction Reform" is based on passing "rote memory" tests"? Hmmmm? Any educator worth his salt will tell ya that getting kids to think is more important than getting them to recite. Heck, a monkey can be taught rote memore stuff.

Bobert

Subject: RE: Sedition, At What Point...
From: khandu
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 09:22 PM

Logical Reasons to "take the chip", other than the ones mentioned above.

No more kidnapping, as the victim will be easily found and the perps easily discovered.

Fewer violent murders as everyone who was in the vicinity of the victim can be readily identified.

No getting lost- in the woods, in the city or whereever- just contact global positioning and they can tell you how to find your way.

No tax-evasion.

No slipping around on one's spouse.

The sky's the limit.

Makes perfect sense!~

Ken

Subject: RE: Sedition, At What Point...
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 09:40 PM

Ahhhhh, yo khanny! Like I thought I was a little off the wall but ahhhh, what chip? And what's this about slipping around on yer sopuse and tax evasion?

Maybe me ol' Wes Ginny brainerator ain't working here, but like what's you saying, bro...

Is this like from some book that I missed out on?

Yer Wes Ginny Blues Bro,

Bobert

Subject: RE: Sedition, At What Point...
From: GUEST,clint keller
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 10:21 PM

Well, I was talking about what the Bill of Rights says. I didn't say Shrub & his merry men were following it.

There have been statements by members of the administration to the effect that criticising the government is disloyal; helping the enemy, not caring about the safety of the American people and so on. Just intimidation efforts so far, but as soon as they think they have popular support they'll jail you for dissent. Especially if they think someone might listen to you. And the limits of free speech will be set wherever they want.

When I was in the Army you could be punished for criticising a superior officer, and we were warned that even "certain looks" were punishable. That was the Army of the United States, and there's plenty would like to treat the whole population of the United States the same way. Look up what happened to Eugene Debs, for instance; jailed for a speech.

clint

Subject: RE: Sedition, At What Point...
From: Sorcha
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 11:37 PM

"We have met the enemy and he is us"

Subject: RE: Sedition, At What Point...
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 12:17 AM

Here's a good article, Bobert, about how the good ol' boys (and all TV watchers) are being controlled:

Television and the Hive Mind

My concern isn't my neighbors (gun-owners, bless 'em)...it's the thousands of Iraqi Republican Guards Bush # 1 and Clinton brought into the US after Desert Storm. They were set up in cells around the US, and most of them work as 'movers' driving panel trucks. So when Bush attacks Iraq, Iraqis really WILL attack us here...within our borders. Undeniably Iraqi. Only problem is, people won't know our Presidents planted them here.

I saw a bit of muted TV tonight and watched the war being presented like a football game. Same graphics...the team for the offense, the team for the defense. Amazing. And the world had to wait a day for Bush's speech tonight. Wouldn't speak on Sunday. Because of religion...day of worship? No...he didn't want to interrupt football. Seriously. It would have eroded his support. So folks are pretty dumbed-down, but I think instinctively people know when they're in danger. First-responders aren't going in for the smallpox shots. 20,000 in Connecticut given a week to come in for the shot, and only 4 people showed up. People know who the true terrorists are.

Subject: RE: Sedition, At What Point...
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 01:18 AM

DG-Simpler and less paranoid explanation: people are gullible and easily entertained, and TV producers make money by giving people what they want to watch. Also, you're afraid of gun-owning Arab immigrants but not gun-owning third- or fourth-generation European immigrants? If I though you were rational enough, I'd call you a bigot.

Subject: RE: Sedition, At What Point...
From: Gervase
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 02:32 AM

As a non-American, I suppose I can say what I like - and my 'pledge of non-allegience' would go along the lines that the current administration is a major threat to world peace and that regime change in the USA is necessary to protect other nations. I also acknowledge that there is undoubtedly growing worldwide hatred of American hubris and, while not condoning terrorist action, I fully understand the impotent rage that gives rise to it.

Given the bizarre Patriot Act, it will be interesting to see how it is put into effect as regards white Anglo-Saxon incomers with unacceptable views like myself. The visa waiver scheme was handy, but will I now be expected to make a pledge of allegiance and to be 'sanitised' politically?
Not that I have any plans to travel to the USA in the immediate future, but it would be funny if my eminently traceable rantings here and elsewhere were flagged up. I think I'd be rather proud to be denied entry!

Subject: RE: Sedition, At What Point...
From: Troll
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 05:35 AM

Clint, that's the was all military organizations have been since time began. I don't know -or care- if you have combat experience, but when the Man says "GO", you don't have time for a committee meeting to decide if that's waht you want to do. Implicit and instant obedience is necessary and any action that foments dissention must be stopped.
Otherwise you, and all your unit can die rather quickly.
When you join the Army et.al. you give up certain rights and the right to openly criticize superior officers is one of them. This is true in just about every army I've ever heard of.

troll

Subject: RE: Sedition, At What Point...
From: beadie
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 10:12 AM

We're meeting at the courthouse, at eight o'clock tonight,

You just come in the door and take the first turn to the right,

Be careful when you get get there, we'd hate to be bereft,

But we're taking down the names of everybody turning left.


   Oh we're the John Birsh Soceity, the John Birch Society

   Here to save the country from a Communistic plot!

   Join the John Birch Society, fighting off the Reds,

   We'll use our hands and hearts and, if we must, we'll use our heads


You've heard about the agents, that we've already named,

Well, NBC has traitors who are flatly unashamed,

We've gotten Rosie Clooney, and we're after Pinky Lee,

And . . . the day we get Red Skelton, won't that be a jubilee!^^^