Who or what are the 'Folk Police'

Subject: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: GUEST,Craven
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 03:33 PM

I'm pretty new to all this (the folk scene and mudcat)

I've heard Kate Rusby mention them, and I've seen references in the Radio 3 messages.

Could someone please explain? Sorry if this is something that everyone else understands. I don't!

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 03:43 PM

people for whom the word traditional defines folk and who therefore don't think singer songwriters are part of 'folk' are called 'the folk police' by those who want to 'make folk accessible to modern audiences'

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 03:49 PM

I disbelieve in The Folk Police... Do I get a Saving Throw?

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Harry Basnett
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 03:52 PM

Although rooted in the tradition I write songs of my own and so I find myself for the first time on Mudcat forced to use the expletive "Bollocks!"

Love and kisses..............Harry.

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: GUEST,Anahootz, sans biscuit
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 03:54 PM

Only if someone uses Guthrie Dust on you...or perhaps a Seeger Spell..

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 03:54 PM

But to add to the confusion as to who the "folk police" are, there are those who are heavily into "singer-songwriter" fare and are not especially interested in traditional material who will try to tell you that it isn't folk music unless you wrote it yourself. I've heard singers criticized for singing traditional material rather than writing it themselves, and there are open mikes around that are for "singer-songwriters" only.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 04:04 PM

So, the folk police would be anyone who doesn't think what you do is folk music and says so?

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Harry Basnett
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 04:10 PM

One thing which does cause some resentment, methinks, are certain people who use the festival/club circuit as a means to launch themselves into a more media friendly pop/folk career   i.e. they might still use the occassional acoustic instrument as a passing nod to the roots they came from.....and please don't give me all that Dylan/Judas stuff....

Do I sound pissed off?.......

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Yvonne
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 04:15 PM

Well said, Harry! Could not have put it better myself--

For the benefit of Craven The Folk Police do exist but don't worry they are easy to dismiss because they are infinitely BORING!!!!!   

:0) Diz

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Blues=Life
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 04:20 PM

I like what I heard Ray Charles say on TV the other night. "There's only two kinds of music, good and bad."
I only like the good stuff. So come and get me, dirty coppers!
*G*
Blues

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 04:26 PM

There's no such thing as the "Folk Police". It's a term used by people (often rather new to the game) who think that they are right no matter what, and that everyone who disagrees with them is (a) automatically wrong and (b) therefore some sort of fascist. Indeed, I've seen the term "folk fascist" used; but only, so far as I can recall, by people who showed no particular sign of knowing what they were talking about.

Anybody who believes that only "singer-songwriter" material can be "relevant to modern audiences" has a great deal to learn. It's often the case, though, that ignorance breeds arrogance and a determined unwillingness to accept the possibility that there may be rather more to things than we ourselves have so far seen. A person who feels that they are more important than those around them, and who is able to dish out criticism but can't take it, is liable to develop the kind of persecution fantasy that leads them to silly and offensive name-calling of this kind.

I don't remember hearing Kate use the term, but I would imagine that it was part of her stage-patter. She's too bright, I think, to take such things seriously.

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Harry Basnett
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 04:32 PM

e.g. Little Timmy No-name trundles in to his local folk club composed of a number of people, some of whom have been around a while and others, perhaps, not so long....but their music is rooted in the tradition...English, Irish, whatever....Timmy then proceeds to hammer out a Buddy Holly song read off a scrap of paper accompanied by power chords on a badly tuned twelve string...this does not go down as well as he thought....must be those damned Folk Police again!!

Funny...we never hear of the Blues police or the Jazz police or the Karaoke police...maybe Little Timmy won't go to those nasty places....

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 04:37 PM

Bev and Jerry, I've only heard it applied to the ones with the traditional/ purest outlooks. I don't think it's so much that they may express a different opinion but be adamant that their view is the only view and at times object to something being played or sung that in their opinion doesn't belong.

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Harry Basnett
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 04:46 PM

Erm....if anybody out there is actually calles Little Timmy No-Name I'm really, really sorry.......

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Peter Woodruff
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 04:53 PM

Folk police sounds like agriculture police. Seen any heliocopters lately?

Peter

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 05:08 PM

Umm, I'd never thought of it from Malcolm's angle before. I've only used the term in jest, e.g. a couple of months ago, I led The Red Haired Boy on bass guitar in our traditional Irish session and wondered what the "folk police" may have thought of it.

I've no dobut though that you can get either side being stupid and that people who are making valid comments getting called names. I guess much depends on circumstances. In the folk clubs I was involved with, I wouldn't have been too happy with somone telling me "this song is not traditional, it's not folk, why is he singing it?" on the other hand, it may be quite in order in a club dealing only in traditional material (which is perfectly reasonable if that is what they want) to pass comment if I did a modern song...

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 05:19 PM

I've never come across anybody in a folk club or a session saying things like "This song is not traditional, it's not folk, why is he singing it?" Maybe I've led a sheltered life, but it hasn't felt like it.

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Santa
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 05:31 PM

Kate Rusby does indeed use the term in her stage act, as part of her banter. She jokes about (for example) turning Ranzo Ray into a "girly song".

However, I have heard established folk singers of maritime songs huffing and puffing about precisely that: Kate turning Ranzo Ray into a girly song! We also heard on the programme, and have seen in postings on this board since, claims that people shouldn't learn folk songs from CDs, and shouldn't sing a traditional song themselves until they have studied how it has been sung by a traditional singer.

The "Folk Police" is a joke: but like the best jokes, is well rooted in reality. They are visible (or audible!) to others than the naive neophyte who knows little and cares less, and deserves what he/she gets.

The songs are not harmed by being reassessed and sung in different ways - the originals are still there for those who prefer them like that. Perhaps that ought to be remembered more often.

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Ed.
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 05:39 PM

Malcolm,

I've heard Kate Rusby use the term several times. As you assumed, it's mostly part of her 'stage patter' However, I've heard her use it when she's used her own tune for a traditional lyric, saying (perhaps tongue in cheek) "The folk police will get me for this"

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 05:43 PM

'Ello, 'ello, what 'ave we got here? If you can't prove that's a real folk song, you're NICKED me son!

I've heard the term used a thousand times (usually as 'folk nazi' which folks seem to be realizing gets people very angry) but usually it's 'cuz someone did not get hired by a club or festival. It appears to be one step above "clique", or "inner circle" which imply a GROUP of the above.

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: greg stephens
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 06:04 PM

It's seems to be peculiar to the folk scene, people trying to pass off other kinds of music as "folk", and calling people who obect "folk police". I think it quite unlikely that anybody would go to a rock'n'roll night with their choir and do a Purcell motet, and then object if someone said "Very nice, but's not very rock'n'roll". People might love it, but that wouldn't make it rock'n'roll, and it would not be considered a "fascist" or "police" comment if you pointed it out.
    I don't know why this is, there must be a psychological explanation. I play all sorts of music, but if I'm playing something that isn't folk I feel no wild urge to convince people that it is. Even if I strum a guitar while I sing it.
   I presume it is basically the inherent strength of actual folk music that generates this problem: people who love folk music feel a desparate desire that whatever music they make must be folk music too; and they can't bear it if some "Emperor's New Clothes" type boy says"But it ISNT folk".

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: michaelr
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 06:17 PM

To me, the jocular term "folk police" describes people who object to modernizing trad music such as Irish dance tunes by using non-traditional instruments or arrangements. For example, some say that Irish music should be played the way Michael Coleman, or Willie Clancy or whoever, played it; or that it should be preserved at the 1870s level, or similar notions.

To them, I say: "Folk music is not a pickle... it doesn't need to be preserved!"

It does need to be kept alive, though.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 06:18 PM

Right, I thought it would have been a joke if Kate had said it. It's a throwaway that people recognise and chuckle at in that sort of context, because the term is bandied about a good deal, and sensible people don't take it too seriously; in practice it's generally used light-heartedly, but sometimes with a degree of venom. It's a cop-out, though (pardon the expression); an attempt to avoid addressing the real issues, I think.

Nobody on the Radio 3 programme said that people "shouldn't learn folk songs from CDs, and shouldn't sing a traditional song themselves until they have studied how it has been sung by a traditional singer". What was said (I paraphrase) was that simply learning songs from records made by other revival performers is not, in the end, enough; the best way to a full and mature understanding of traditional song is to find out how the real traditional singers dealt with it. That takes time, and nobody can be expected to do it all first; but if they're serious about the music for its own sake (rather than just seeing it as a handy pool of material that may not be in copyright, and onto which they can impose their own personalities), they will, in time.

Bear in mind, too, that this wasn't meant to include folk who do a bit of casual singing in their bedrooms, or the odd floor-spot (though a bit of self-education would do no harm in many cases), but those who aspire to pursue the music to some degree professionally. It's about showing some respect for the music and for those who have passed it on to us, and understanding (as was also pointed out) that we are not, in the end, very important as individuals; it will probably still be there when we are gone. Ego should have no part in the way we approach it. Ego is what leads to all that "Folk Police" foolishness.

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 06:21 PM

By late 1965 I had been singing for various audiences for thirteen years, and had sung regularly in coffeehouses since 1958. One evening I walk into the dressing room at a local coffeehouse to tune my guitar before doing my evening's singing, and encountered this barefoot kid, eighteen years old, wearing opaque, dime-sized dark glasses. I had seen him around before. He had been singing and playing the guitar for about six months, and he was a passionate admirer of Bob Dylan (that this was the case was not Bob Dylan's fault—he can hardly by dumped on because of the nature of his self-appointed apostles), even doing his utmost to sound like Dylan (i.e., an eighteen-year-old trying to sound like he was eighty). He wrote his own songs: angry polemics about the nature of the world interspersed with bouts of adolescent angst that droned on tunelessly for thirty verses or more. When he saw me walk in, he ups to me and he says, "Jeezus, man, you here again? Why do you bother singin' all that old crap? The stuff you sing isn't socially relevant (his very words). Nobody wants to hear that shit anymore! Why don't you just fuck off?" (Among other things, I think he wanted my job.)

This was a fairly extreme case, but around that time, I kept running into guys like this. The audiences liked what I did. In fact, most of them found me and my traditional "old crap" a blessed relief from what else was going on about then. But I was one of the few left, and the coffeehouses started closing up for lack of audiences. Wonder why?

I would hardly call this little gink a member or the "folk police," but there are still creatures around like that, among singer-songwriters and traditionalists alike. Ignore them, for their words carry as much meaning as the cacophonous gobbling of a flock of turkeys. Lo, even moreso. They are like unto a herd of horses, bloated from getting into the oats and overeating, and are in the painful throes of breaking much wind.

Sing what you want, and if the audience doesn't like it, find another audience. They're there.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: John Routledge
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 06:41 PM

"Folk Police" is a term of endearment - not

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: harvey andrews
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 06:50 PM

Folk police are the people who have forgotten that music is about joy,...the expression of the human spirit, the expression of hope, of anger,of humour, of story. it's irrelevant if it was written five hundred years ago or yesterday. If it's on the button it will survive. If it's not it will die. Folk police want music to be a museum.
Yesterday I participated in the recording of a song with a leading singer/songwriter standing next to a leading traditional singer. Harmony prevailed in all senses of the word. If the pro's can do it, why can't everybody?

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Deckman
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 06:52 PM

Don ... perfectly said! Bob(deckman)nelson

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: jimmyt
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 06:56 PM

Don I very much enjoyed your post in the Folk Music police. Everytime I feel like I really don't belong in this website because of my political views or the fact that I play in a group who performs nothing but "old crap" (note, we have all the work we want as there is a large audience of people who love this crap), I happen on to a post by you or Jerry Rasmussen or Rick Feilding or a few others that I have enormous respect for. I decide to hang out some more. I feel honored to get a chance to interact with class guys who can play the music and have been doing it for a long time! Thanks again jimmyt

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Jon Bartlett
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 06:59 PM

There is no such body as the Folk Police, and the Chief Inspector has authorized me to say so.

Jon Bartlett, Det.Insp.

Seriously - "folk police" is merely an insult, akin to "politically correct": it's a phrase used by folk who feel they are being (or have been or might be) criticized for something they've done/not done - a projection, if you like, of a) their fears that the putative critic is right; b) their anxiety over not knowing whether their act or omission IS blameworthy; and c) their unwillingness to deal with the substantive issue. If you are someone who does any more in folk music that sing or play, you too will one day be accused of being a member.

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Roughyed
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 07:03 PM

Let's face it, playing folk music is at the moment "odd". My reaction to people finding my taste "odd" is to say "No this is really good. Listen it's relevant to you." and play music that connects with others hopefully without compromising what I feel is the nature of the music we love.

There are others who seem to "like" folk music because it is "odd" and will go to any lengths to prevent "ordinary" people connecting with it. These people are to me the Folk Police and they should go somewhere and disappear up their collective orifices because they damage the spread of our wonderful music.

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 07:07 PM

McGrath, I have never come across the example I quoted but have in the past come accross people very anxious to work out and asking what sort of folk club we were because of previous objections elsewhere. In some cases those objections were for all I know justified, in other cases, perhaps not. I was really trying to illustrate a point. The third and most likely experience on that particular issue was that they were people aware of difficulties elsewhere, and were most likely on holiday (Llandudno was a resort) trying, to work out if what they did would be considered acceptable at the club they visited.

I have however met people with views on what a place should be and, as I think I mentioned before, once had a lecture on how the guitar (I think) was not a tradtional instrument. In that instance, I took great delight in informing the individual that my own tenor banjo, an "acceptable instrument" did not exist until around 1915.

I'm straying further into other territory now but the bottom line to me from the side of the venue is let each be what it wants to be and enjoy it for what it is.

Jon

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Sam L
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 07:10 PM

The folk police are like many other police. I'm a vegetarian but a few times it's been too rude not to eat what was served, and I suppose the vegetarian police could bust me. But I think I prefer being tainted to being perfectly rule-bound.

Seinfeld had a lot of fun with situational rules and with characters becoming the "police" of various situations, (is soup a "meal"?) or criminal masterminds of others (how to date your girlfriend's room-mate). It was a good running joke formula that sometimes involved actual police characters debating things like backing-in to park vs. pulling-forward. It's a good renewable source of humour because we are all silly like that one way or other.

I take all sorts of filing systems to be filing systems, music isn't about what folder you'd put it in. Young people and students can get very caught up in all that armature, and suppose it improves them, somehow. But it is fun and interesting to think of what is essentially this or that, how it works, its psychology, what the gist of style is. Greg's comment reminds me of the Art-rock I grew up hearing, which seemed to stop being rock at all somewhere along the way. People always laugh off the What is Folk question, but I think it's fun as long as there are interesting, thoughtful, or even surprising answers. Or funny arguments.

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 07:38 PM

I have been accused of being a member of the "folk police", because I have been argueing for 30 years and have posted to 253 Mudcat threads (+/- 27) about the need to keep the words distinct.
I sing and listen to many types of music, but prefer much of the older stuff, and simply want a guide when I go to a concert or purchase a record/CD. If everything is called 'folk', then nothing is folk...it is just music.
I simply resent seeing BOTH 'folk' and 'trad' being grabbed because they are short, handy words and being left with no easy way to refer to "all that old, often anonymous, mostly non-commercial, usually acoustic, music written about dogs and cabbages and battles and villains etc..."

Is that "policing"?...naaawwww *grin*...just complaining. Sing any damn thing you want, just leave me and a few old curmudgeons a little island in the vast sea of "new" where we can appreciate "old" without being told that "it's ALL folk"!

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Art Thieme
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 11:43 PM

I proudly plead guilty. The young ones always need those who can teach them the historical truths---especially in times when many wish to disregard looking back for values. Just know this---you don't know what you are missing by closing off to it. As Jesus supposedly said, "You know not what you do."

Those two sentences main words are "don't know" and "know not"----two sides of the same coin.

They add up to ignorance----and it is always sad to see movements succeed and ideas take hold that are based on faulty thought processes and/or lack of good info.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 11:43 PM

Go argue with Uncle Pete. His definition is that people sing it because they like it.

The volkspoleizei are our very own self appointed Inquisitors who are too insecure to simply let the music flow. If it is good it will survive. If not, it won't.

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 01:40 AM

I find that those of the folk-police persuasion tend to use the phrase "You should..." a lot.
And to them I usually respond "If you don't 'should' on me, I won't 'should' on you.
All the best.

Seamus

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 03:01 AM

It's all very confusing. harvey Andrews obviously loathes the Folk Police, other people say they dont exist.And are they people who say you should learn about trad songs before you sing them, or are they people who say you shouldnt use guitars to accompany English folk songs. Are the the people who just say it isnt traditional to use guitars to accompany English folk songs? And do they include, as some have said, the forces on the"other side". who say music should be made "relevant", by writing new stuff or using modern rtechnology. I tend to be with McGrath: nobody actually ever comes up to me and says "you can't use that guitar/djembe/synthesiser". (Though they may say it behind my back, I suppose. No. I think the concept of "folk police" is largely an invention of people who want to slag off those who disagree with them, but dont wish to argue. Users of the term never seem to identify the members of this police force: I, for example, havent the remotest idea if I am a member of it, or a notable criminal pursued by it.

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Peterr
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 06:30 AM

They are indeed often boring, often not performers, and if they are they seem to be on an ego trip.
Two quotes, 1: Carthy's 'The only harm you can do to a song is ignore it'
2: Anon 'I've never heard of a song that wrote itself'

Those sum it up for me.

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: ET
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 06:53 AM

I used the expression in a context so I suppose I am responsible. They are enforcement officers from the Local Council carrying out their "evening all" duties of making sure there is no danger to locals in pubs from unamplified piano accordians etc.

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 07:01 AM

I find the use of the term 'police' in this context almost designed to provoke more heat than light. I am not in favour of anyone dictating 'in the large' what should and should not be done to folk music; nor am I in favour of anyone assuming the past can be blithely ignored. (And that applies to a great many of my interests, not just folk music.) But in specific situations and circumstances decisions have to be made. That is simply life.

A Point Against Policing: They are hopefully aware of the impact Cecil Sharp had on recorded folk music. Again, most of them are aware of how William Kimber sparked at least part of his interest. William's instrument of choice was the concertina, which at the time was about as 'recent' as the electric guitar is to us. Folk music changes.

A Point for Policing: Club/session/singaround organisers have a duty to guide the way it develops so that they believe it is being strengthened. (Of course, they will sometimes be wrong!) Necessarily, that involves them selecting the music to some extent. Whether you call that policing or not is presentation more than fact.

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 08:42 AM

Peterr: "Two quotes, 1: Carthy's 'The only harm you can do to a song is ignore it'.....it is not necessary to 'ignore' any song-only to apply a bit of taste & discretion about where it is sung. Does "Yellow Submarine" belong at a Bluegrass festival? There ARE distinctions to be made.

2: Anon 'I've never heard of a song that wrote itself' ...so? That statement is a close relative of "I ain't never heard a horse sing one"...it means nothing in relation to the debate about whether 'folk' and it's sub-categories need to be defined or protected.

Some people above who argue against rules and definitions are evading the issue....and they KNOW that there are types of music and venues that they like and seek out more than others. They draw lines just as folk like Art & I do...they just draw fuzzier lines in different places.

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Deni-C
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 08:50 AM

and to think the folk 'scene' attracted me, partly because i perceived it as more tolerant, or should that be less intolerant....


how wrong can a girl be!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 10:20 AM

Folk Police? (Also called folk nazis) They are the ones whose taste in folk music is immeasureably better than yours, and they have been in it for so long that they remember when people used straight razors and Model T's. They can usually be identified by the stiff gait, due either to arthritis...or the broomstick up the hind end. They are frequently (but not always) in charge of folk festivals, folk societies, and open stages.

As the young Bob Dylan once said (back in the 60's sometime)..."When I hear the term 'folk music', I think of a bunch of fat, old people sitting around playing guitars."

Oooo! He was so politically incorrect! Don't blame me...cos he said it, I didn't. :-) The funny thing is, I am now over 50 and I sit around once a week with my over-50 folkie friends and play guitar. But...I'm still thin.

I would add to the above that some of the nicest people I've ever met are in folk music, and folkies generally are nice, tolerant people...it's just that some of them fall into the trap of self-righteousness. It happens in all groups of people.

- LH

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Santa
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 12:31 PM

Ah, but if they were real, would you join?

Imagine being able to go to a Folk club and know that you were not about to be asked to sit through

- self-indulgent singer-songwriter blues about life in Huddersfield
- a string of Herman's Hermits' greatest hits
- non-stop interminable indistinguishable Irish rigs and jeels
- bands with a complete disrespect and disdain for their audience

Well, that last was a festival concert not a club night - but you know the (rare) kind. We all have our pet peeves...what's left in the middle is folk music.

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: harvey andrews
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 03:20 PM

"band with a complete disrespect and disdain for their audience"
I worked with one of them recently. They opened for me. One member of the audience was so incensed by their attitude that he stormed out and asked for his money back. They seemed to think that any sort of communication other than through their music would be "selling out".Actually they are the perfect band to follow. Just a smile and a "hello" and the audience are yours for the night!

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 03:25 PM

They are the ones who say 'Go back to the source' but mean the person Cecil Sharp (or equivalnet) recorded it from who only happened to be the one passing on at that particular time.

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Sam L
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 05:29 PM

It's an interesting aspect of this thread how it relates to ideas of originality, which long ago meant something like "coming from an old established source" but which now usually means novelty, personal vision.

Another interesting thing is how we deal with criticism, whether it's meant to help, or simply snub. Really good stuff seems to arise when people can deal with each other critically somewhere between the rat-packish mutual admiration of I love this guy--and I mean that! on the one hand, or You Suck! on the other. In college critiques it always seemed to me that being a star student or a hopeless case both got you ignored, though the former was preferable at the time. Good criticism is hard to do.

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 05:16 AM

Yes, indeed, Fred Miller, "good criticism is hard to do". We've grown up (unless we've been fortunate) with the notion that critique is criticism, is "put-down". It's not. To know somebody, to know something, in a true sense, is to love it. "How do I love thee? Let me count the ways..." You want to understand what you love, you want (in the words of an old scifi fan) to "grok it in its fullness". This may mean, with folk music, that you want to understand its "quiddity", its "what-ness". What is is about this music that I love? I've been in love with folk music since I was 16 - 40 years of adoration. Bill D and Art Thieme are with me here, I think. I think I'm closer to understanding that which I love, by virtue of struggling with definitions: "I love *this* and not "that" - why?". I think I'm a better person because of it. The struggle to understand is neverending, and if you truly love, you never stop trying to understand. My life in and with folk music has been just that.

I have a hard time with people who use the phrases "folk Nazi" or "folk police" because the the way in which these phrases are used are so full of hate. I ask myself, "what is it that they hate?". I don't believe they hate me, or people like me, or traditional music. I belive what they hate (and I think a better word might be "fear") is the thinking that goes with loving. They have perhaps grown up in a culture which abhors thinking and overvalues feeling, and the notion of "criticism" is for them entirely negative. My 2c.

Jon Bartlett

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: harvey andrews
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 06:42 AM

Maybe this needs a new thread. Is out response to music through our "thinking" or through our "feeling"?
A nearer definition of the folk police would be to see them as "no" sayers. They're in all walks of life. Their response to any request is a sharp intake of breath followed by a slow shaking of the head.The "yes" sayers react with a smile and a nod.I'm with the "yes" sayers, even if it does mean that occassionally a young person who is just learning hammers out a Buddy Holly song. That's how I started.Once inside the tent however my musical education began.

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Harry Basnett
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 06:50 AM

Point taken, Harvey....but I wasn't talking about a 'young learner'...I quite agree that someoned dipping their little piggies into the water for the first time needs encouragement not knockbacks...we all had to start somewhere...

See you at the Open Door tonight.....


All the best..............Harry Basnett.

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 07:31 AM

I'm not sure I agree Harvey. I think there can be reasons to say "no". The session I go to weekly is Irish instrumental only and is not a complete begginners session (although that is not to say we wouldn't slow down maybe one or two sets of tunes in an evening to help someone get started). It is perhaps narrow and specialised but apart from no singing (I enjoy probably about 95% playing 5% singing mix best), it was what I was looking for when I moved to Norfolk. I wouldn't dream of suggesting they should allow singing but insted enjoy that I was welcomed in to a great bunch of musicians who have helped me a lot. I have since met people accusing this session of being a clique and intolerent. It isn't, it just doesn't want to change from being the strong, more specialised session, that it has been for years.

Don't missunderstand me, I have been involved in the organisation of folk clubs that were open to all sorts and personally have been very keen to help people get started - I've even lost musical instruments that way, enjoyed sessions that are mixed in types of music and songs, have enjoyed nights of purely unnacompanied singing, etc.

If I had the resources, I'd probably be out at a venue of one type or other each night of the week. My overall view is that having more specialised and more diversified venues is good for all of us and it's up to us to seek out what suits us best from what is available in an area.

Jon

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Jeri
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 08:03 AM

Blues=Live quoted Ray Charles: "There's only two kinds of music, good and bad." I read Dick Gaughan's opinion (in uk.music.folk, I believe) that there were only two kinds of music - that which he liked and that which he didn't. I tend to agree with that. How many times have we read (or heard) reviews by people that slagged off someomes music and you got the distinct feeling they didn't like the type of music and wouldn't even listen let alone recognise a good perfomance? There's plenty of music out there I don't care for, but the artists may be among the best in the world and someone else would like them.

As to 'folk police', there are people who think any criticism indicates someone trying to tell them what to do. It's that old "you aren't my mother/father, and you can't tell me what to do" thing. The fact that someone states an opinion, stridently, repeatedly or both, does NOT mean they're trying to tell you what to sing or even that they believe they have a hope of succeding. Police have power. If someone actually believes 'folk police' exists, they're giving them power.

On the other hand, there's an unwillingness to listen on the part of the 'folk criminals'. (HA - how do you like that? If police enforce the 'law', there has to be someone breaking it!) This may be more evident in a situation where the 'folk police' DO have power such as a session. It's too hard to listen and learn what's appropriate in that particular time and place. It may be more effort than people want to expend or they may be afraid they'll get it wrong. That blanket "everything I do should be acceptable everywhere, and if it isn't, YOU'RE the problem" is a cover-up for un-willingness to learn basic musical social skills.

There are no 'folk police'. There are those who want people to learn, to understand, and get frustrated when their knowledge is dismissed as insignificant or annoying. There may be a small handful of folks who actually believe they can tell people what to do. If they exist, they're the other side of the coin from the "I don't wanna listen" folks. Both have a one-size-fits-all opinion about music that, in their minds, make having to adapt to a given situation unnecessary. Both will meet with a lot of frustration and perhaps develop a lot of animosity because society, musical or otherwise, DOES run according to rules.

Personally, I try to learn what the rules are, then I break 'em. Someone may have a problem when I do, but I'll listen, learn, and above all, respect the person. There isn't one person in the world I can't learn something from.

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Mr Happy
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 08:46 AM

Seen any heliocopters lately?

what are they?- Solar powered?

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Wotcha
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 02:34 PM

Elsewhere it is the Muttawah in the Middle East who fulfill this role and Germans during quiet hours ...(Never play a banjo in Frankfurt suburbs at home between 1 and 3pm or on Sundays ...)

Cheers,

Brian

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Ross
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 03:51 PM

They are called intolerance & lack of respect for others

They are everywhere building castles to defend themselves - where seige mentality ensues

They are the hurt ones that hurt others

They are the ones that never connect - that to condemn others will eventually rebound on themselves

As a person

Be kind & considerate to everyone - then the folk police will die

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Willie-O
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 04:39 PM

But ross--I don't want Art Thieme to die! Or Ian Robb, for that matter, who called himself a Folk Nazi enough times in print that Sing Out! wouldn't let him use the Na word any more.

I guess this phenomenon does exist, it's all a matter of degree. Sometimes you gotta tell someone something that they don't want to hear, for the greater good of all. As a small-time music presenter, and a veteran of too many hippie jam sessions, this has sometimes been my lot.

What's obnoxious is people for whom that seems to be all they're about. Really, the only time this type of thing is called for is when someone is truly and insensitively interfering with others' enjoyment.

Willie-O

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 04:41 PM

Nice song... But you know, Ledbelly didn't play it in 'C'... he played it in 'G'.

I love that song... Why did you mix up the second and third verses?

Why do you use a guitar? It's not really a traditional Irish instrument is it?

Actually... "Ned of the Hills" is a Scottish song, not Irish...

Did you write that? ...No, was written Two Hundered and fourty eight years ago, in England... Oh, too bad...

These are just a few of em...

What really gets me, is that I can perform an endless self written song about the most rediculous relationship nonsense, and be paid close attention to and aplauded well, and I can sing a Trad song about a very consistant historical problem in humanity's basic make up, and people can wax indifferent and address me with intollerance afterwards with a why and a don't and a whether and a won't, what's the meaning of your gleaning, where's the tittilating juiciness of codependent leaning... Or visa versa!

And I just learn more great songs, and sing 'em! And the writing of these new songs was never better! ttr

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 05:43 PM

"Folk police"

Members of an underground musical humanitarian sect. Their main goal is to elminate subversive, intrusive and down right shite quasi-musicians - such as; Bodrahan player sand unaccomplished - oops! unaccompanied singers etc, the type well known to invoke the phenomenon known amongst real musicians as "shoe syndrome"!
For the benefit and guidance of said eucaryotic-musicians,
you will perhaps, or more likely not notice that this "syndrome" is exemplified by:- furtive shuffling and gazing at the floor, ceiling, distance, in fact anything to distract from the utter torment of your lack of musicianship!
Read; Why we need folk clurbs.

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: greg stephens
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 05:44 PM

Somebody once asked me "Is that right, what you're playing?". Could this have been a member of this strange law-enforcing body?

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 05:53 PM

Well I seem to have a foot in most camps here. She who must be obeyed and I do a fair bit of traditional stuff (some not English, indeed perhaps quite a bit not English) and if I'm going to sing a tradition I would rather it was my tradition than someone else's tradition (why would I want to pretend to be foreign? - not that foreign is worse, but I'm me, and I'm English). But we arrange it for ourselves - so the contemporaries don't like it 'cos it's trad adn the traddies don't like it 'cos it's been muched about with. And we muck up the contemporary stuff too.

But I don't see why it is wrong to want to be able correctly to define folk, or to know how the earliest known versions of a song went, or how the composer played it or what his words were (or when the second and third verses got elided). Surely it helps you to know where you're going if you know where you've been.

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 05:55 PM

As i said, eucaryotic = no brain.

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: greg stephens
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 06:10 PM

I think I might be a member. I do occasionally give guitar lessons...I might say, if someone wants to know how to back Soldier's Joy "well the first bar of the tune contains nothing but D,F# and A notes, you should play a D chord". OK, this may be a bit nazi, perhaps I should say "play any chord you like, horses do".

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 07:53 PM

I reckon, when it comes to real crap, new crap is a lot more offensive than old crap. But that's just me being literal-minded.

There are people with an authoritarian streak, who like to tell other people what to do, in a controlling way. Some of them might do it from the stance of defenders of tradition, some as advocates of innovation. Either way they can be pains when they interfere with the natural flow of a session or an evening, or the development of a performer.

Myself, I place an enormous value both on tradition and on innovation. Alongside each other, and with a distinct identity.

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 09:48 PM

McGrath, I couldn't agree with you more! Excellent post my friend. ttr

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: greg stephens
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 02:52 AM

I agree 100% with McGrath, and I imagine most of us do, in fact I would guess all of us do. The actual identity of the "folk police" is proving a little difficult to establish.

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: jonm
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 03:28 AM

I regard the playing of music as a sharing experience. I'm not enough of a virtuoso to believe that anyone would want to listen to me play without liking the song. I tend to introduce songs on the basis that I'm going to play something I really enjoy and want to share it with the audience. This tends to go down well, and I've got away with everything from straight trad. in acoustic "rock" nights to acoustic rock songs in trad folk clubs. I tend not to let on if there's a song of my own in there, but it will fit in with what I'm playing. One of mine has been taken and is being spread around, interestingly, as a traditional song.

I play a lot for morris, mostly concertina, but I made the effort to learn to play most of the original instruments the tunes were collected on (pipe and tabor, fiddle etc.). This gives me a feel for the distinctive characteristics of the instrument and the way it affects how you play the tune. I've looked at Sharp's notations for the tunes and how those distinctive characteristics are evident, and how often the musician played the same tune more than once and it was different each time Sharp notated it.

There are also the "morris police" who will criticise you for not playing the exact version from the Black Book (in some cases Lionel Bacon applied his own licence and that is not the tune as Sharp collected it!), just as they will criticise the dancing for tiny departures from their accepted version of the norm. I have even had a man stand in front of me and tell me I'm playing the wrong version of the tune, while the dance was going on! He was most unamused when I told him his own instrument (melodeon) is untraditional and that, surely, all the Adderbury tunes were collected in F so why are you playing them in G?

I believe we cannot preserve traditions in music or dance by pickling them. The music must be given a chance to evolve and we must all accept that some of the resulting evolutions may not conform to our own tastes and ideals. There are plenty of those who are living in the past and trying to perpetuate the style of folk music and folk club that existed in their own heyday. There are also those who, given one book or one world view, cannot accept that other world views should be allowed to exist.

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: GUEST,noddy
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 04:36 AM

THEY ARE OUT THERE.
They will get you if......
you do not sing ALL the verse all84 of them in the correct order with no mistakes ,no wrong words or nuances.

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Ralphie
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 07:18 AM

HOW TO DISARM A FOLK NAZI !!!

Having performed our version of "Amphitrite" at a gig a while ago, a well known "policeman" enquired as to the source of the tune that we had used for the lyrics, because he had never heard that version before, and had really enjoyed it!!

When I told him James had written it in his kitchen in the autumn of 2001.....

He retreated to lick his wounds!

Maybe I should tell his superiors, and get him reprimanded??

Regards Ralphie

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Sam L
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 09:22 AM

Now trad police are not exactly the same as folk police. I once played lute at a wedding with a couple of people, and one piece had me playing only melody lines, I was going to use a pick. No picks! They wouldn't have it. But picks are traditional, they were used, and I think it sounds better a little brighter. No, but back then, I was told, they'd just use a piece of tortoise shell, or whatever. ...Huh?

I suppose I could've pushed the point, but didn't. Tortoise shell was a luxury material, not a piece of whatever, and I still don't know what the attitude was all about.

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 09:43 AM

The Young Tradition tell the story of how one particular song, "The Hungry Child", was written deliberately to encourage a folk-policeman to praise its authenticity, and be subsequently deflated. (Its a good song, though, in its own right)

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 11:56 AM

Good thread this but everyones said it all.

Spot

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 12:20 PM

The irony of The Hungry Child is that the person the Young Tradition thought had written it had in fact just translated a (genuine) traditional song from German into English; she may perhaps have made up her own tune. The "folk drag" Heather Wood referred to was actually closer to being right than she was. Shows the perils of making assumptions about people and about traditional music, perhaps; as well as trying to be too clever.

Details: Lyr Req: MOTHER I'M HUNGRY

Still, they were very young; and most of us thought at that age that we knew it all.

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 12:54 PM

"Those who cannot learn from history are condemned to repeat it." George Santayana.

Haven't we been here before folks? Does anybody else remember the jazz wars in 1950s Britain?

Back then, some jazz musicians were passionately devoted to freezing "their" music as it was played at a particular time and place (New Orleans in 1915 – Chicago in 1925 – New York in 1945 – take your choice). They regarded musicians who played it any other way as heretics and blasphemers.

Other jazzers claimed - equally passionately - that much as they loved and respected the tradition, they wanted to adapt it to changing times and tastes. They dismissed all who did not agree with them as dullards and bigots.

And then there were a lot of hard-working, hard-up musicians, happy to play whatever would earn them a living. If the public enjoyed a simplified caricature of real jazz as a background for drinking, dancing, socialising and seducing, then so be it. Those who complained were just a bunch of amateurs, who didn't understand the basic principles of the entertainment industry.

For far too many people, this three-cornered dog-fight became more important than the music it was supposed to be about. Round about the same time, the public began to lose interest in both the argument and the music . Attendances declined, clubs closed, and the music press turned its attention to the next big thing (a rock band named after some insects, I seem to remember). Fortunately, certain people in the BBC and the Arts Council woke up to the fact that Jazz was "Culture", and therefore deserving of support and subsidy – otherwise it might have disappeared altogether.

Might this story be a useful warning for the folk music community?

Wassail!

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: John P
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 01:39 PM

Yes, the folk police exist.

No, people who are responsible for booking music at a club or a festival and stick to their standards are not the folk police.

I have been accosted by the folk police several times, usually because I play traditional music in what some consider to be non-traditional ways. Never mind that everyone who isn't a confirmed old-fogey traditionalist thinks I'm terribly, boringly traditional.

An example of the folk police: We were playing at a coffeehouse, with a nice stage and a good audience. We finished the first set with a traditional Bulgarian tune played on the hurdy-gurdy and guitar. As soon as we stopped, audience members came up to talk about the music and the instruments and everyone was having a really good time. Suddenly a loud voice next to me interrupted the conversation I was having to say, "I hope you don't go around telling people you play Balkan music. That's not how they do it!" Needless to say, the joy of the moment was rained on for everyone. I made some lame response like, "Yes, that is how they play it, because you just heard it played that way", and tried to get the feeling in the room back on track.

When they speak to me privately, I tell them to mind their own business and ignore them. When they publicly impose themselves on me and my audience they are way out of line. This thing I liked best about this particular encounter was that a week later we were doing the same tune in the women's handbag section of the local department store when an elderly Bulgarian woman walked up and said with surprise and (I think) delight: "But -- that is Bulgarian!"

Here is my definition of Folk Police: Those who don't have any official responsibility to do so telling you that you are playing music wrong.

John Peekstok

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 02:20 PM

My method of dealing with the folk police is to point out to them that I am not in their jurisdiction.

Although I am what is generically referred to as a "folk singer" because I sing folk songs to the accompaniment of a guitar, I do not consider myself to be a folk singer. I was born in a big city and raised in another big city. My parents weren't farmers or miners or seafarers (although my father loved fishing—for sport), they were health professionals. And neither of them were musicians, although my mother took some piano lessons when she was a girl.

My musical background came initially from listen to the radio: classical, pop, Broadway show tunes, etc. The first folk songs I recall hearing were one Sunday afternoon on a radio program hosted by Burl Ives, where he gave the history of the Erie Canal in song and story. I also recall hearing the records of Susan Reed and Richard Dyer-Bennet. I began actively participating when a girl I was going with in 1952 inherited her grandmother's old parlor guitar, picked up a book of folk songs, and started teaching herself. Since then, I've taken voice lessons, classic guitar lessons, studied music theory, took every course my local university English department offered relating to folk songs and balladry, and read widely on the subject.

I learned songs from records and CDs and from a large library of song books such as One Hundred English Folk Songs by Cecil J. Sharp and Folk Songs of North America by Alan Lomax, occasionally learning a song from a live person (who undoubtedly learned it from sources similar to mine). I have performed professionally, doing recitals, concerts, television, coffeehouses, and folk festivals. Now, I sing because I enjoy it (but I will accept pay if offered).

I am not above changing a word or two in a song if I think it sings better that way, and sometimes I will take two or more versions of a song and meld them, taking what I consider to be the best bits from each, possibly rewriting a little to make the result both historically and poetically consistent. I do this rarely and carefully, and, I hope, knowledgeably, but even so, in some circles, of course, this is regarded as a hanging offense. But I subscribe to the principles laid down by Rolf Cahn:

The most ticklish question still results from that awful word "Folk Music", which gives the erroneous impression that there is one body of music with one standard texture, dynamic, and history. Actually, the term today covers areas that are only connected in the subtlest terms of general feeling and experience. A United States cowboy song has less connection with a bloody Zulu tale than it has to "Western Pop" music; a lowdown blues fits less with Dutch South African melody than with George Gershwin.

Most of us agree in feeling as to our general boundaries, but more and more we search for our own particular contributions as musicians within these variegated provinces. There doesn't seem to be much point in imitating—what, after all, is the point of doing Little Moses exactly like the Carter Family? Yet it seems vital to convey the massive, punching instrumentals and the tense driving, almost hypnotic voice of the Carter Family performances.

One the one hand, there is the danger of becoming a musical stamp collector; on the other, the equal danger of leaving behind the language, texture, and rhythm that made the music worthy of our devotion in the first place. So we have arrived at a point where in each case we try to determine those elements which make a particular piece of music meaningful to us, and to build the performance through these elements. By continuing to learn everything possible of the art form—techniques, textures, rhythms, cultural implications and conventions, we hope to mature constantly in our individual understanding and creativity in this music.

I don't see that calling oneself a "folk singer" endows one with any special knowledge, privilege, panache, or general saintliness. I suspect that the vast majority of those who do call themselves folk singers have a background quite similar to my own, and can lay no more claim to "ownership" or "custodianship" of these songs than I can.

I don't just sing folk songs. I reserve the right to sing any song I that appeals to me—pop songs, Broadway show tunes, operatic arias, even rack & ruin rock & roll, and, of course, folk songs—in any way that my knowledge and my taste tell me to sing it. It happens that the songs I like to sing the most are folk songs. To a folk policeperson trying to lay an arm on me, I say, "I'm not a folk singer, I am a singer-guitarist. Therefore, I'm not even in your jurisdiction. Furthermore, since you were not raised in the oral tradition either and learned these songs the same way I did, you are not in the jurisdiction you seem to think you are, nor do you have the authority you seem to think you have. So shuddup and siddown!"

Don Firth

I do, however, try to have sufficient taste and sense to appropriateness not to sing a Scottish border ballad at a chantey-sing, or try to bung an Appalachian love song into a Robert Burns festival. You have to use your head.

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Steve Mullinax
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 07:20 PM

I am happy to report that I just returned from the Portland Folklore Society's "Singtime Frolics" camp.

Despite representation from many of the warring camps referred to in this thread, the gathering was remarkably peaceable. We have traditionalists of several stripes, singer-songwriters, country & western fans, shanty singers, political activists, ... We had workshops on early country, playing guitar up-the-neck, even "Sing-Along with Goofy" (Disney songs)!

Even with (one might assume) all the potential hostility, all differences were somehow resolved without the intervention of the folk police.

No arrests, no injuries, no wounded pride.

The community survives.

Steve

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 07:37 PM

Now which is more likely to annoy peopel who feel like getting annoyed about such things? Playing traditional material in a non-traditional way, or playing non-traditional material in a traditional way? I'd guess the former.

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Folkiedave
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 08:00 PM

Certainly as someone who has a bit to do with a festival and the booking of artists. I have to balance a number of things.

My own personal tastes go along the lines of Watersons, Planxty, MacColl and Seeger, Fury Bros and you can now see where I am coming from.

BUT I also like Steeleye and some Fairport.

I also have to cater for new singers, up and coming singers, singer-songwriters, shanty groups, cross-over groups, ballad singers, traditional specialists, folk-rock, blues and so on, the ingredients that together make (to my mind) a good festival. Any one of these can look at my choice of artists and say - he has not booked .......my favourite artiste. "Folk policeman". I have had people who said they won't come because: not enough trad/Celtic/Ballads/singer songwriters etc. I have had people say there is not enough roots music despite two groups from Africa, etc. No matter who I book I can guarantee crticism. I have been asked for Bruce Cockburn, Three City Four etc.

Fortunately I love it and will defend my choices.

See www.holmfirthfestival.com


Dave
I do hope not.

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: GUEST,Longarm
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 09:30 PM

A story re this thread.
Back in the eary seventies a new "traditional' singers club opened in my town(Colchester, England) When a singer got up and announced he was going to sing a Lenard Cohen song an irate organiser loudly said 'english only here mate' to which the singer instantly replied 'it is in fucking english'!!!!!

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: sharyn
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 10:06 PM

I usually refer to "the folk police" when I knowingly break an unspoken rule, such as singing a song without a chorus at a gathering where chorus songs are favored (but where other songs are not expressly forbidden). When I use the expression, it's just a joke.

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: M.Ted
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 01:11 AM

JohnP,

Truth be told, when it comes to Bulgarian Music, the folk police turn out to be the KGB.   

Once, I was with friends who wanted to buy instruments from some musicians in a touring Bulgarian performing group. We were told that the transaction had to be made discreetly , out of eye and earshot of the KGB agents who traveled with the group. Several of us sat in the coffeeshop of the hotel while the instrument buyers snuck off. By odd coincidence, the KGB group came in moments after we did, sat next to us--we were a bit nervous. Even more oddly, when we got the discreet high sign that the transaction had been made, and the instruments hidden in our car--the KGB group casually finished their coffees and went back to the rooms.

Turned out that the KGB agents needed to be able to tell customs that their instruments were brought into the country for playing, not for sale.

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: GUEST,Eliza Carthy
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 10:33 AM

My Dad nearly had his guitar taken off him at US Customs because he couldn't produce a receipt for it (nineteenfiftywhat?) and therefore couldn't prove he wasn't going to sell it.
Nothing to do with the Folk Police though. I don't believe in them, although I do get a lot of stick from people who don't like what I do!!!
cheers,
ec x

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Benjamin
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 01:05 AM

I've recieved plenty of crap about not really writing any of my own material and also rejecting some material that doesn't move me. I think the best answer I could give is that it's people's personal tastes combined with ethnocenterism. I personaly think it's a shame when people reject older material. I believe that history is one of the greatest lessons music can teach us today.

Mike (Northumbria) it's nice to hear from you again! I'm still enjoying that African tape!

Benjamin

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: michaelr
Date: 29 Mar 03 - 01:08 AM

You can witness the Folk Police conducting an investigation in this thread.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Santa
Date: 29 Mar 03 - 05:50 AM

Went there - looked more like an over-indulgent fan unable to accept that not everybody thought his favourite band the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Not "Real" Folk Police - who wouldn't accept bluegrass as folk music anyway.

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: greg stephens
Date: 29 Mar 03 - 06:05 AM

Yes, I had a look at that thread, seemed to be the usual sort of discussion of whether a group can be classified as bluegrass or not. Don't see where "police" comes into it. People often vaguely wonder if spiders are a kind of insect, or if sponges are plants or animals: are we to call such people "biology police"?
    Classification is always an interesting and difficult area, but not, to my way of thinking, very similar to criminal investigation and law enforcement.

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Mar 03 - 02:59 PM

This give me an idea.

If Howells an Jowells (whose names rhyme with "bowels") get their way in the house of commons, can we all argue about folk music until the BBC and the Arts Council decide to subsidise us? It'd be whole lot easier than trying to keep an unsubsidised club solvent!

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: toadfrog
Date: 29 Mar 03 - 03:41 PM

Better question. Where are the folk police, and how do I join?? If they exist, I'm for them!

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Marje
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 01:09 PM

Be a good name for a band, wouldn't it?

I think the "Folk Police" exist only in the minds of those who have found their contribution or performance wasn't welcomed as much as they'd hoped. Rather than think hard about whether they were being insensitive to the mood of the club or session, or maybe whether they're just crap, they lay all the blame on a mythical enemy.

Maybe someone even told them that this particular event was set up for traditional song, or English or Irish music, or just tunes, or just songs, or chorus songs, or unaccompanied or unamplfied music, and pointed out that their item didn't fit. In any other genre of music, it would be seen as perfectly reasonable to have a particular focus, but somehow in folk music, some people assume they can do whatever they like, as badly as they like, at every event, and then whinge "Folk Police" when it doesn't go down well.

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: denise:^)
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 01:14 AM

I've always thought of the "folk police" as the folks who:
~come up to you after your performance, and tell you that you did it "wrong," because that's not the way "______" sang it on her album;
~tell you that what YOU do CAN'T be folk music, because it's different from what THEY do...

In other words, the narrow-minded, the intolerant, the self-righteous...those who KNOW the way things 'should be,' and are ready, at the drop of a hat, to tell you so!

They're around in every walk of life--

In our walk, we call them folk police!

Denise:^)

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: HuwG
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 07:34 AM

At one Open Session I regularly attend, someone approached the players after one set and said, "You know you only played twelve bars instead of fourteen in that last round ?"

The guitarist turned to him, jerked his thumb in the direction of the pub's rear car park and said, "Complaints Department out there, mate!"

Perhaps not the most diplomatic reply, but the best put-down I have ever heard.

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Alasdair
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 07:58 AM

Think "Fashion Police" and apply the same concept to folk. Also a v good track on the Peatbog Faeries' latest album

Al

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: JennyO
Date: 04 Apr 03 - 09:49 AM

I just refreshed this thread for GUEST, allen woodpecker, from the Eggs and Sessions thread, because I thought he might feel at home here. Fortunately I don't meet many like him in sessions.

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Art Thieme
Date: 05 Apr 03 - 11:33 PM

Eliza,

Have you seen Scott Alarik's book called DEEP COMMUNITY yet? One of the chapters is an article he did on you for the Boston Globe---. That book mentions "the folk police" in several places. Interesting. There is an article in there that Scott wrote back in '86 about my winding up doing records for Folk Legacy and Sandy Paton. But leafing through that book I can see how very much this folk scene differs from the one I knew and was part of 40 years ago. That kind of morphing and change can leave some of us older folkies wondering why what we cared about so much is overlooked so easily by modern folkies. Trying to hold onto what we found to be of value maybe makes us seem to don the garb of folk police.

Does you dad and mother ever feel sprt of passed by on occasion?? It would be good to hear Martin's take on all this, but I doubt he'd care to get into this banter. There is no real point to it---except to vent ones frustrations.

All the best,

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: GUEST,Eliza C
Date: 06 Apr 03 - 12:50 PM

Art,
   No I haven't read his book, but I know Scott, he's a nice man.
I think that the frustration that you feel is down to the fact that many people of your age (I am assuming you are sort of my parents' age) built the folk scene as it is as young, vibrant poeple, and therefore find it hard to accept that thing you love changing. And I don't blame you, I imagine I would feel the same way. It isn't that nobody appreciates you, it's just that we come from the priveleged position of having most of the hard graft already done and a scene at our disposal-so we will try to improve it on our own terms to express our own excitement, try to expand it to include our friends and peers just as you did. My Mum finds the folk scene bewildering these days, and has as little to do with it as she can. She still loves the music and the ethos though, it's just too commercial for her I think.
cheers,
eliza

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Art Thieme
Date: 06 Apr 03 - 01:05 PM

Eliza,

Understood----and appreciated.

Art

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Big Mick
Date: 06 Apr 03 - 01:39 PM

I don't know how old you are, Eliza, but you are wise. Very good observation, both on the older and younger folkies. Congratulations.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Apr 03 - 02:56 PM

Eliza, you must have very unique perspective as a second generation performer. You can see parts of 'the big picture' most of us can't. Very insightful, that part about what I read as the grabbing of the baton. If the excitement of new 'voices' and styles couldn't exist, there wouldn't be much point in performing.

I can only look at this from a non-performing perspective. We used to get together and primarily talk about the music itself, and now frequently discuss recordings, shows and performers' versions of song. Maybe it's because the songs have been a part of us for so long they aren't news, but what a musician does with them will always be news. I try to look for music I like, whether it's a new, unusual arrangement or a well done, simple version of a song. Reacting to changes or a lack of them would make me miss out on a lot.

Classifications are fine, as long as we use them as descriptions and not rules. Just my opinion.

Subject: RE: Leonard Cohen & the folk/jazz police
From: Hester
Date: 06 Apr 03 - 03:51 PM

Harry wrote:

>>>Funny...we never hear of the Blues police or the Jazz police <<<

And then Longarm coincidentally told an amusing Leonard Cohen anectdote.

So, I can't help posting these pertinent Leonard Cohen lyrics:

"Jazz Police"

Can you tell me why the bells are ringing?
Nothing's happened in a million years
I've been sitting here since Wednesday morning
Wednesday morning can't believe my ears
Jazz police are looking through my folders
Jazz police are talking to my niece
Jazz police have got their final orders
Jazzer, drop your axe, it's Jazz police!

Jesus taken serious by the many
Jesus taken joyous by a few
Jazz police are paid by J. Paul Getty
Jazzers paid by J. Paul Getty II

Jazz police I hear you calling
Jazz police I feel so blue
Jazz police I think I'm falling,
I'm falling for you

Wild as any freedom loving racist
I applaud the actions of the chief
Tell me now oh beautiful and spacious
Am I in trouble with the Jazz police?

Jazz police are looking through my folders ...

They will never understand our culture
They'll never understand the Jazz police
Jazz police are working for my mother
Blood is thicker margarine than grease

Let me be somebody I admire
Let me be that muscle down the street
Stick another turtle on the fire
Guys like me are mad for turtle meat

Jazz police I hear you calling...

Cheers, Hester

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: GUEST,ozmacca
Date: 07 Apr 03 - 06:20 AM

Why has no-one leapt to the defence of this dedicated self-effacing group of men and women who continue to ceaselessly protect their fellows from the insidious threat of pollution of our mighty traditions? Have you no shame? Have you no sense of gratitude that we all owe our hisory, our culture, our very identity, to these unsung heroes of the folk scene.

For centuries un-numbered these selfless guardians of purity have continued to ensure that the cream of our heritage has remained unsullied, and their struggle continues to this day. They deserve our thanks and our grateful orisons in their praise. It is time for the Folk Police to step forth from the shadows in which they have too long reamined, and to stand tall, proud, and glad to be the defenders of the traditions they serve so well!

And if that seems too much to ask, just remember that anybody who says the music should do something that you don't want it to must be one of their number.... including you if you don't agree with the stuff somebody else happens to like today.

PS, Do you like the uniform? Smart eh?

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: harvey andrews
Date: 07 Apr 03 - 02:49 PM

Good post Eliza. I remember your mother as a vibrant young thing in the vibrant young Watersons! Judging by her recent work the voice is NOT fading. However, this lyric from 2000 was written to express much of what you posted
                     FADING VOICES

FADING VOICES ALL AROUND
STILL I HEAR THEIR JOYFUL SOUND
ONCE THEY STOOD BESIDE ME WHEN
WE WERE YOUNG AND SINGING THEN
SONGS THAT CAME LIKE SHOOTING STARS
TO SHINE THEIR LIGHT ON OUR GUITARS
WORDS THAT SET OUR SOULS AFLAME
THINKING ALL OUR LIVES A GAME
FADING VOICES ALL AROUND
STILL I HEAR THEIR JOYFUL SOUND

THE ROAD, THE GIRLS, THE SUN AT DAWN
THE TUNES THAT IN THAT HOUR WERE BORN
SIDE BY SIDE WE TOOK THE STAGE
AND NEVER THOUGHT WE'D REACH THIS AGE
SOME JUST GAVE IT ALL AWAY
AND LET THE BOTTLE WIN THE DAY
SOME JUST WATCHED THEIR SPOTLIGHT DIE
TILL DARKNESS TOOK THEM FROM OUR EYE
FADING VOICES ALL AROUND
STILL I HEAR THEIR JOYFUL SOUND

OLD SOLDIERS NOW AS YOUNG ONES COME
NEW TALES TO TELL NEW CHORDS TO STRUM
NAMES THAT ONCE WE HELD SO DEAR
ARE UNKNOWN TO THE YOUNG ONES HERE
BUT FADING VOICES ALL AROUND
STILL I HEAR THEIR JOYFUL SOUND
ONCE THEY STOOD BESIDE ME WHEN
WE WERE YOUNG AND SINGING THEN
OLD SOLDIERS NOW, OUR TORCHES BURN
STILL BRIGHT BUT TAKE THEM IT'S YOUR TURN

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Folkiedave
Date: 07 Apr 03 - 03:20 PM

I would hate to think I was one of the "folk police" and Eliza as often in these cases is bang on. The only suggestion I make to younger folkies after a long time of experience in folk music is "listen to the tradition". Since I am prepared to wager that Martin and Norma passed on that advice as it was passed to them, then I reckon that is OK.

Blatant commercial plug. Homlfirth Festival has a great reputation for promoting young people and this year is no exception and we will continue to do so whilst ever they keep coming forward. Kate Rusby sang a Tanita Tikaram song for her first public peformance there. We look forward not backwards.

Regards,

Dave Eyre
www.holmfirthfestival.com
www.collectorsfolk.co.uk

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: ET
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 02:40 AM

Bringing the debate round to my version of the Folk Police - the hard working and dedicated members of the Local Authority Licensing Team, who give there time in the evenings freely (well at overtime rates plus traveling expenses and a hospitality charge), they are going to flourish under the new Licensing Act-checking darts players for anyone watching, checking for entertainment licences etc. You may be interested to know one one such of these people who recently raided a local pub and ordered the "session" into a small room, ordered the licence holder to form a club, ordered him to insert frosted glass incase we were seen through the door, argued with a fire officer who said the frosted glass obscured the fire starting when banjos were layed to fast, and then failed to turn up the following week when the BBC turned up with cameras.

We must be indulging in one of the most dangerous hobbies in the world me thinks!

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: HuwG
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 04:56 AM

GUEST, ozmacca, could you provide a link to an image of the uniform ?

As far as I know, the uniform of the British Folk Police Service (when worn on ceremonial or formal occasions) combines a black tunic, jackboots and peaked cap, with the check shirt, corduroy trousers and straggly ginger beard of an archtypical Somerset folkie.

The members of the service are known to their oppressed victims as, "The Black and Tats", from this mixture of clothing.

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 11:33 AM

Dunno about "The Folk Police" but here in Ireland we have a very musical V(o)ice Squad!

Regards

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 06:19 PM

One of my favourite groups............wished I could get them together...............legendary round here.......and have donated a track to the Holmfirth Festival CD for the 25th Anjniversary of the festival.

Dave

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: toadfrog
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 11:20 PM

Well, in the old German Democratic Republic they had the Volkspolizei. So perhaps it's something Teutonic.

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: GUEST,ozmacca
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 11:54 PM

HuwG - Sorry, but in the interests of protecting the identity of these selfless guardians of the traditional etc etc etc etc, I am unable to give you a link to an image. However, in the interests of furthering popular recognition of the members of this etc etc etc, let the mind's eye conjure up this picture of the Royal Orstrilian (Light) Folk service, or R.O.L.F.s as they have come to be called. There are three main arms of service, dedicated to maintaining the purity of Instrumental, Vocal and Dance customs, though it is common to find officers from one branch serving with distinction in other fields.

The distinctive hat (slouch, tatty) is worn on many official ocassions, with badges from Folf Festivals and Folk Clubs etc attached. These indicate, not arms of service as may be expected, but years of membership in the force. On special parades, such as in the presence of HRH the Q and PP the D of E, or their viceregal deputies, a number of corks are suspended from the brim. The bottles from which these corks are drawn are indicative of rank, and the number of corks indicate the officer's ability to sound authoritative on any subject regardless of actual evidence.

The sleeveless black waistcoat is usually worn unbuttoned except in the presence of Morris dancers, when it is fully buttoned. The shirt is white for other ranks, and checked for field officers. Where the shirt is striped, this denotes that the wearer is seconded to special duties with the Multi-Ethnic Secret Service, and the colours of the stripes denote the national heritage in the care of the officer.The shirt sleeves are rolled up above the elbow in all but the most inclement weather.

The trousers are usually black or brown corduroy, depending on the arm of service but denim jeans are sometimes seen when the officer is on plain clothes duty. Braces are part of the standard combat webbing, and are often seen in bright colours to indicate the arm od service.

Boots are usually elastic sided and black, but most officers tend to leave these in natural camouflage condition, except when on special parades. In a number of active service situations, trainers have been issued, and these tend to be teated in a similar manner.

In every situation, the officer carries a notebook and pen or pencil, with which to record instances of failure to comply with regulations, and some officers may be seen with tape recorders. When an officer so armed is encountered, the potential perpetrator is strongly advised to take one of two courses of action. Firstly, pack up the instruments and depart without singing, or secondly, ply the officer with two things, questions on the recognised standard regulated version of the piece, and strong drink.

I believe that the local uniform may vary from place to place, but these protectors of our traditions will continue to stand against the evil forces of polluting influence for as long as somebody will listen to them.

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: mooman
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 04:18 AM

Ozmacca,

A pretty flawless piece of intelligence work and, as a fugitive on the run myself commiting the traitorous offence of playing also jazz, blues, rock and latin music and, worse still, incorporating it into my folk and Irish music, I can confirm that they are among us, both cybersniffing out pockets of resistance here on the 'Cat and in physical person at Gatherings where their presence has no doubt coerced some to comply unwillingly with "the rules".

A further hint for identifying the chief officers and enforcers. Increasing rank is usually inversely proportional to the size of the pocket book, which may often be secreted in the pocket of the leather waistcoat and directly proportional to the hardness of pencil used. This is so that such senior officers may make their intelligence reports of any infractions in tiny writing in easily hidden form.

Must run and hide...

moo

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: GUEST,noddy
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 04:42 AM

Why dont they arrest mr Howells.

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Ralphie
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 07:27 AM

Well, as an Englishman, I'm ashamed to plead guilty of the charge of abusing a concertina, by making it play Swedish, Norwegian, French, Belgium (Yes! Belgium!!) tunes, as well as English. (and a bit of Jazz too!)
I hope the court will look kindly on me, and I accept any sentence that it sees fit..(And may the Lord have mercy on my soul)
Ralphie

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 07:29 AM

Can I nominate old Thomas Wood of Kirby Malzeard?

Lucy Broadwood, writing in 1893, quotes a Mr Bower as follows:

Mr Bower says; "Taken down by me from old Thomas Wood, of Kirby Malzeard who sings and repeats it. But he will have nothing to do with the present Christmas sword-dancers or "Moowers," who, he says, 'Have never had the full of it, and don't dress properly, nor do it in any form, being but a bad, idle company; but were originally taught by him to make up the numbers at the Ripon Millenary Festival.'"

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 06:54 PM

Ralphie,

"Being found abusing a concertina while in charge of the said instrument" is NOT a criminal charge instituted by the Folk Police, with any form of mandatory punishment. It's a commendation. Your OBE (Order of British Ethnicity) will be in the post any day now.

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Fortunato
Date: 10 Apr 03 - 09:26 AM

Never forget your gospel according to Pogo: "We have met the enemy and he is us."

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: GUEST,Pete Peterson
Date: 11 Apr 03 - 09:01 AM

Hmmmm. . . that quote from Rolf Cahn bothered me. I DO like to sit (with two friends in particular) and sound just as much like the Carter Family (Little Moses and a lot of other things they did) as we can, thinking that if we can get the letter of the song right, the spirit will somehow descend on us. And sometimes it has. We do this more for ourselves than for an audience (usually this is in our own living room) and maybe that's the difference. Old time music (what I do most) is a participatory sport IMHO.