BS: Help! Our cedar trees seem to be sick.

Subject: BS: Help! Our cedar trees seem to be sick.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jun 03 - 12:36 AM

There are many cedar trees on this property, and I've noticed that a good number of them seem to be developing what may be a serious illness. Various bits of foliage on the cedars are turning brown and dying...I mean little bits scattered around here and there...and it's increasing. Is this a common problem with cedars in Canada? Will it kill the trees in time? Is there a remedy? Can anyone shed light on this subject?

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Help! Our cedar trees seem to be sick.
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Jun 03 - 12:55 AM

Drought

Subject: RE: BS: Help! Our cedar trees seem to be sick.
From: Metchosin
Date: 21 Jun 03 - 02:56 AM

Little Hawk, its a natural occurence here on the west coast with western red cedar. Its called "flagging" and is a response by the tree, most summers, to low rainfall, as kat noted. It is not something to be concerned about in western red cedar and does no harm to the trees.

I would assume that it would be the same with eastern cedar species. Check out other cedars, in the area, to see if its occuring with them too. Cedars are wonderfully messy trees and contribute to a lot of the detritus in my house, that the dogs bring in tangled in their fur. Gnawing and pulling it out keeps them busy for hours.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! Our cedar trees seem to be sick.
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 21 Jun 03 - 03:01 AM

We have been suffering, in Kansas, from a "new" virus that seems to affect almost every kind of "evergreen." My local Forestry agent says there's no treatment except removal - although the local fertilizer boys have convinced my neighbor next door that about $400 worth of bad smelling spray applications (so far this spring) is a good deal. I don't have a name for it, but it appears to be "communicable" on air currents - and was definitely propagated in my neighborhood by infected chain saws when the power company trimmed trees last summer.

Actually, the expert said that a few trees may survive if you remove infected branches carefully to avoid spreading it, and dispose of them where they dead stuff can't spread it.

Of course, this doesn't mean there's anything similar in Canada, but I'd bet you have something similar to our Dept of Agriculture, Forestry Dept, or a good local garden shop that could give you a useful diagnosis.

Drought is always a possibility, as kat said. How's you're rainfall been for the past couple of weeks?

John

Subject: RE: BS: Help! Our cedar trees seem to be sick.
From: Metchosin
Date: 21 Jun 03 - 03:41 AM

JohnInKansas, I used to work as a Plant Pathology Technician for Ag Canada and also the Canadian Forestry Service. Cedar does this naturally and Little Hawk has not mentioned the same problem with other conifer species.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! Our cedar trees seem to be sick.
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 21 Jun 03 - 03:52 AM

I was pretty sure what LH is seeing wasn't related to our little problem here. Question is, what's the "source" when folk in Canada really want an answer about their wild plantlife.

Our State Dept of Agriculture has "field stations" available locally, and a pretty good "Master Gardener" certification for anybody that wants to work at it a little, so there's usually someone a phone call away. Anything similar up North? (just out of curiosity).

John

Subject: RE: BS: Help! Our cedar trees seem to be sick.
From: Mooh
Date: 21 Jun 03 - 06:31 AM

I have dozens of cedars along my back fence, all of them healthy. There are two more outside my front door which show the same symptoms as Little Hawk's. I've always attributed it to the town's excessive application of salt to the sidewalk about two feet away. The trees seem to cure themselves. It's been a wet spring hereabouts so it isn't drought. Since there is a salt mine supporting the local economy I don't forsee a change in the situation.

Likewise I noticed similar cedars in the Bruce, along the roadsides but not in the woods. I always figure it's to do with vehicle pollution but I'm no scientist, just a guy who likes to walk in the woods.

BUT...It's a good question LH. I think I'll call the local Field Naturalist Clubs for assistance. I'm a distance away from you (southern Ontario) but there's likely a link.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! Our cedar trees seem to be sick.
From: Metchosin
Date: 21 Jun 03 - 10:50 AM

Mooh, excessive salt build up interferes with the plants ability to take up nutrients and moisture and usually results in the yellowing of the whole tree. I've checked and flagging occurs in eastern white cedar as well, although it is not as common as in western red cedar and by western standards a little early. Here's a picture of cedar flagging

Subject: RE: BS: Help! Our cedar trees seem to be sick.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jun 03 - 11:09 AM

Hmmm. Sounds encouraging. The other conifers here are all doing fine. We've got spruces and some others which I don't know the names of. This is red cedar here, as far as I know. Some of the trees are looking just fine while others seem to be having a bit of a problem. We'll see how it goes over the summer.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Help! Our cedar trees seem to be sick.
From: Metchosin
Date: 21 Jun 03 - 11:39 AM

It does occur somewhat sporadically on the same property, Little Hawk, depending on microclimate. There are at least a hundred cedars on our property and some make it through the summer with no flagging at all, while others look very troubled indeed, by the end of the summer.

It is probably more common along roadsides, because cedars are very shallow rooted and the road side of the tree would be very exposed to drying winds and direct sun, while those further from the road, have more protection from the affects of desiccation of their root systems.

Susan (who used to be a Park Naturalist too), however, second opinions are often wise.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! Our cedar trees seem to be sick.
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Jun 03 - 12:40 PM

I would not wish them ill...but if they go, I'll be up to fetch 'em!(especially if they are short and knarly)

Eastern Red Cedar is lovely wood when turned into objects d'art, (though tedious to sand!)

ah, well...they'll probably recover, being pretty hardy souls, and I get some locally anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! Our cedar trees seem to be sick.
From: Mooh
Date: 22 Jun 03 - 06:35 PM

Maybe not the salt? Great! Though I'd rather they cut it out altogether.

I love cedar. It makes great tonewood, shingles, fence rails, canoes, and a multitude of other things. Smells nice, works well, and the inner bark has lots of vitamin C (so I'm told). It should be revered.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! Our cedar trees seem to be sick.
From: Deckman
Date: 22 Jun 03 - 10:58 PM

What part of Canada? Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Help! Our cedar trees seem to be sick.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jun 03 - 12:40 AM

I'm in central Ontario, Bob. Orillia, Ontario...north of Barrie. There are a great number of Cedars around here, as well as other conifers, maples, oak trees, birches, and so on. There must have been some fantastic forests here before the lumber companies came through back in the 1700's and 1800's. There is one stand of old growth cedar I've seen a few miles from here and the trees are absolutely enormous, making a cathedral-like forest with no ground brush whatsoever.

I notice that the cedars that are suffering most are indeed very exposed to direct sunlight and dryness.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Help! Our cedar trees seem to be sick.
From: Mooh
Date: 23 Jun 03 - 06:19 AM

In the Bruce (Bruce Peninsula, along the Niagara Escarpment, southern Ontario)there are cedars many hundreds of years old growing from the sides of the escarpment. They are as craggy as the rock from which they grow. I've seen those trees bake against the stone in the heat of summer and freeze solid draped in ice in winter. To think they withstand this cycle hundreds of times! We are fools to think we can have dominion over these things.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! Our cedar trees seem to be sick.
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 23 Jun 03 - 05:32 PM

OK lets take this session to a miniture level. I have a little bonzi cedar, which I dearly love and does not seem to lack for anything, as I water it weekly to "moist" soil, and feed it with hydroponic fertilizer. It seems to be doing the same thing, and as I have a bit of money invested in the thing, I will be reassured as long as things don't get too brown. But with the salt comment, I wonder if I'm giving it too much water or fertilizer (pot has drain hole for excess water). Any comments welcome...

Subject: RE: BS: Help! Our cedar trees seem to be sick.
From: Peg
Date: 23 Jun 03 - 11:00 PM

a couple weeks of low rainfall will not affect large trees, not immediately (yer strawberries might be hurtin' tho).

It's several years' worth of drought (like we've had in the Northeast) that starts to make its effects known in larger trees years later...they become vulnerable to storm damage and generally weakened and so more susceptible to illness, rot, insects etc.

There is indeed a virus affecting some of the old evergreens in the Northeast; wonder if it's the same as the one mentioned in Kansas?

Subject: RE: BS: Help! Our cedar trees seem to be sick.
From: Deckman
Date: 23 Jun 03 - 11:10 PM

Littlehawk ... I certainly cannot speak with authority to your local region and species. But, as you've described it, it sounds like a lack of water problem. I had it here last Summer. The condition, over here, was temporary and not fatal. I suspect that most any gardening center, or State Agriculural Centre (Canadian spelling ... hee hee) might be very willing to give you guidelines. You could always put a slow running hose at the root ball and let it go for a few days and see if it makes the tree smile! CHEERS, Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Help! Our cedar trees seem to be sick.
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Jun 03 - 05:35 AM

Interesting discussion. I have always been amazed at the reilience of what is generally referred to around here as "scrub cedar." The shallow roots are often a hindrance but at the same time allows them to grow in the most unlikely of places. AS described above at Niagra, down at Cumberland Falls and along the river They can be found growing out of rock fissures so small as to be unbelievable. Many of them are quite old and have survived hot summers and frosen rock faces during some winters. Their ability to survive damn near anything has always made me think they are the cockroach of the tree world.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Help! Our cedar trees seem to be sick.
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Jun 03 - 05:44 AM

Oh yeah.......Funny story.

A close friend of mine (Matt-college roommate) grew up dirt poor in Kentucky. His Dad was a tenant farmer and they had a tough time making ends meet anytime. At Christmas they used scrub cedar for a Christmas tree. So..............We used to hunt on the farm and one day I brought a friend of mine from Ohio along for one of our fall hunting weekends. Randy (from Ohio) was a bit shocked although he didn't say anything when he saw the farm and the rundown house. Matt's mom fed us to the gills though, great breakfasts, downhome suppers, and Randy was mightily impressed with the eats.

We're heading back in across a ridge and Matt says, "I need to tell 'em that there are some good Christmas trees up here." Randy had never seen anything like cedar being used for Christmas trees, being a middle class suburbanite who had grown up with white pines and Frasier firs. Randy keeps looking around as Matt and I talked about the size and shape of various scrub cedars and then finally said, "Are you telling me you use these for Christmas trees?" Matt replied that was indeed the case and Randy cranked out a line that could have been taken offensively, but both Matt and I knew how he meant it.

Randy said, "No wonder Santa Claus never stops here."

Matt and I were both doubled over laughing for 5 minutes!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Help! Our cedar trees seem to be sick.
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 24 Jun 03 - 07:02 AM

We've used cedar trees for Christmas trees too! However, with so many molds on live trees, I was forced to use an artificial one when the kids were home.

Several years ago we had a bad drought that lasted several years. All the cedar trees were turning brown and looking poorly. Then the Spring we finally got lots of rain they fluffed out and were beautiful. They were so unusually beautiful that everyone noticed them and thought they were a different tree!

We also had a tornado that came through and nearly hit "My Old Kentucky Home." Many of the cedar trees around there were leveled. A friend of mine was in charge of the cleanup and gave Hubby some cedar wood which he used to make a beautiful cedar chest for my daughter.

We finally burned up some of those cedar blocks in our patio burner last year. There's nothing like the smell of a cedar fire.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! Our cedar trees seem to be sick.
From: Mr Red
Date: 25 Jun 03 - 06:38 AM

Just as well they weren't maple trees I might have said "sycamore?"

I think it looses a little in the translation. Or I may be barking up ............... I'll get my coat...............

Subject: RE: BS: Help! Our cedar trees seem to be sick.
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 25 Jun 03 - 06:48 AM

sick-a-more?????????????

Mr. Red, you better be a tree and ......

Subject: RE: BS: Help! Our cedar trees seem to be sick.
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 25 Jun 03 - 03:05 PM

Aye, drought.In BC, it is more likely lack of WINTER rainfall [which is unusual in BC!!]We were hitpretty badly about three yearsback, and inquiry at theforestry dept.brought the answer. Unless the trees are exposed to too much sun, they will recover.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! Our cedar trees seem to be sick.
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Jun 03 - 09:37 PM

Hey, Little Hawk, you know how Metchosin tells a Sitka spruce from an Engleman spruce? If she backs into the Sitka spruce, she says "Dammit!" and if she backs into the Engleman spruce she says "Goddammit!"

Down here in Texas they have stuff they call Cedar, but it's a scrub juniper. There are in fact no "true" cedar in North America, they're all in the cypress family, last time I checked.

Back in my Forest Service days I worked on several districts in the west side of the Cascades in my home state of Washington, and one of those seasons was at Verlot, north and east of Granite Falls. I did various timber-related jobs over the years, and up there they sent us out doing all sorts of stuff that seemed to involve very steep slopes and going over or around immense trees. In one instance, we were marking boundaries for a new cedar sale that was next to an existing clear cut. The wind typically will knock down some of the edge trees, giving the forest at the edge of the clearcut the look of a comb missing a few teeth. When these down trees are mature western red cedar, there's rarely a way to go over them, you have to hike all the way to one end or the other and go around it. The roots are shallow and the wads are gigantic.

I was working with two other foresters and had climbed up the steep hill to go around the root wad of a huge (probably 14' DBH at least) cedar that lay pointing downhill between several other huge still-standing cedars. I'd taken whatever measurement I was going to, then I decided I'd climb up that root wad and walk down the top of the recumbent tree, and using a limb from the standing cedar next to it, I'd do an assisted "jump" to the ground to join my coworkers.

The roots were marvelous to climb, earthy-smelling and strong, and as I moved over that edge and stepped onto the bark of the tree, grasping the outstretched limb, my feet went out from under me. Unstead of just sitting down hard on top of the log, or even falling off of the log, it was like slipping on a banana peel. I had a firm grip on the next tree's branch with my left hand, and I was like an extension of that branch as my body flew through the air for what felt like a 180 circuit of that standing tree. I flew over the tops of my coworkers heads, who stood open-mouthed in amazement as I made a perfect landing, standing upright on the duff-covered ground on the other side of the standing cedar as I let go of that branch.

"Are you done yet?" was all their amazed response. I could never repeat that in a million years, and it was a real thrill. I had a brief feeling of what it must be to be an arboreal primate. What a rush!

Western Red Cedar and some general interest and technical information about it. There's one in Olympic National Park that is 761 inches in diameter at breast high (DBH).

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Help! Our cedar trees seem to be sick.
From: Metchosin
Date: 26 Jun 03 - 10:15 AM

Stilly River Sage, re spruce: ain't that the truth. One Christmas was particularly memorable and painful when I was small, when my father brought home, a very illegal sitka spruce, for our tree. It was really good at keeping small children from rumaging through the parcels and I recall my Mum using those very words, throughout the whole Christmas season.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! Our cedar trees seem to be sick.
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Jun 03 - 01:01 PM

I may have reversed the species in the telling--it has been a long time since I've backed into either one!

SRS