Iranian siamese twins

Subject: Iranian siamese twins surely they were murdered
From: GUEST,Jim Clark london england
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 08:02 AM

I was realy sad to hear of the deaths yesterday of the two 29 year old siamese twin girls joined at the head....

Why o Why did those doctors who carried out their operation feel like playing God.....Surely it is nothing short of murder to kill two people in the name of medical experimention....Dont tell me the girls wanted the operation,that just isnt an excuse....If they could live 29 years with their condition if there was very little realistic chance of parting them safely then why werent they given psychological counseling and persuaded of all the good they could do with their lives,rather than the awful fate they suffered at the end of hi-tech ego manical butchers wielding surgical knives....

Such a shame...life is too precious to be thrown away just for the sake of a new media age freakshow...What do you all think ??

Regards.

JC....

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 08:29 AM

I think they were two intelligent women who made a conscious and reasoned decision regarding their quality of life. I think that surgery which is deemed too risky will continue and that in 25 years will no longer carry as high a risk. I think both of them were well aware of the risks and went into the surgery in the best possible frame of mind and also knew the outcome might result in death...and that is the risk they were willing to take. I think it is ridiculous to think anyone could counsel them as they were experts themselves on living the life they were given and presumptious to believe they could have been somehow "saved" through sharing their experiences and acting as role models or something. I think your personal moral values are your own...as were theirs. Together they decided and together they died. I think it is none of my business and none of yours either.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 09:03 AM

I did find it very sad but I'm with spaw. I believe they were perfectly capable of assessing the risks and weighing those up against the quality of life they had, and perhaps could have had. As such, I believe the surgeons were correct in attempting the operation.

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: Alba
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 09:22 AM

Im with Spaw also on this.
These were two Women, both had dreams which could not be fulfilled if they remanied joined. One wished to become a Lawyer and the other a Journalist.
I personally cannot begin to imagine what it would feel like to be in their situation.
These Two Brave Women made a choice in an attempt to gain independence. They were well aware of the risk factors involved but felt strongly enough about their plight to take those risks.
I have enormous respect for the Courage they both showed in going ahead with such a dangerous proceedure.
I was very sad to hear of their passing and truly wish that the Operation had been a success.
A

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: maire-aine
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 09:22 AM

I believe these courageous women were very aware of the consequences of their decision. There are some things worth dying for, and independence is one of them. They were not "a unit", they were two intelligent women with goals of their own. They both agreed that it was worth the risk. I am saddened by their deaths, but I believe in life after death, so all is not lost. And perhaps others will benefit from what the doctors learned.

Maryanne

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: saulgoldie
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 09:36 AM

I wished them well and was sad to hear that it had failed. But whenever I hear of one of these kinds of operations that require huge outlays of money and resources, I always wish that a fraction of that could be applied to some of the thousands and millions of people whose lives could be saved or significantly improved if the public will were there to support it.

I think there is a crisis in delivery of non-heroic medical care in the world and even in the mega-rich US, and this event only profoundly reminds me of that.

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 09:47 AM

If the assessment of the risks given to the twins was correct and the surgeon was willing to conduct such a risky operation, then the twins were taking a decision to accept those risks and the possible consequences, and it should be their right to do so. However I have heard that the surgeons performing the operation gave them a 50-50 chance of survival and that during the operation they discovered the situation was more complicated than they thought due to the extent of the shared circulation. Surgical teams in other countries have turned down performing this procedure because they felt that the extent of the shared circulation made their chances of survival extremely low. I'm sure some of them have said they were exremely surprised that another team agreed to it.

If it turns out to be the case that the surgical team exaggerated the probablity of survival (or minimised the risks) in order that they might have the chance to perform groundbreaking surgery, then the twins were not really giving fully informed consent and that would be reprehensible.

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: Beccy
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 10:07 AM

Spaw- You said a mouthful. These women were highly intelligent and understood the risks involved. They were quoted as saying that they would rather risk death than live another year joined at the head. I think that makes pretty clear what their wishes were. May they rest in peace.

Beccy

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 11:01 AM

They had names. Ladan and Laleh Bijani. Laleh means "fragile flower".

All the stories I've seen about this emphasise that the doctors involved warned that the chances were at best 50/50, and advised against it. But they decided for themselves to take the risk, and they had the right to do so, and good reason to do so.

The hope of freedom is something worth risking dying for sometimes. That's called heroism.

The criticism of doctors for playing God is of where they are making the decisions where they have no right to do so. Gven that there was a fiughtin cahnce of survival, to refuse the clear wish of Ladan and Laleh to take that chance would have been doing exactly that, "making the decisions where they have no right to do so"

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: Red and White Rabbit
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 12:24 PM

Ladan and Laleh - you were bright and brave. The world is less rich because of you passing but may we have all learnt something from your life and from your death - the fact that we can discuss the rights or wrongs here shows that we are all willing to learn

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: Kim C
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 12:27 PM

Ditto Spaw. I can't say I would have been courageous enough to make such a choice.

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: Walking Eagle
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 03:02 PM

Well, well, well. Two women who made a choice to do something knowing the risks and were willing to bear the consequences of their decision. Quite unusual in this day and age!

Medical experimentation? What if Barney Clark and others that followed refused to have heart transplants? Point is that there are always pioneers in any endeavor. They have made the frightful decision that their life is no longe fulfilling and that It's through these brave souls that advancements are made. I was praying for them all the way. My beef isn't with their medical team, it's with the Great Spirit who seems to be asleep at the switch right now. Why weren't we allowed this one bright, small miracle of their thriving survival? Why was it not possible to let them survive, yet very possible to let suicide bombers to wreck their havoc on us? I will have many discussions and prayers about this.

Chapter two.
It seems as their adopted father and uncle ( who are doctors )advised the women against the operation. Now they may sue the medical team who carried out the women's wishes. And so it goes...

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 07:52 PM

"Why was it not possible to let them survive, yet very possible to let suicide bombers to wreck their havoc on us?"

...because these are HUMAN acts and consequences, totally dependant on HUMAN decisions and abilties.

I still wonder when I read of a plane crash with 2 survivors out of 200 saying "God was with us" ...right...sure...

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 09:19 PM

What God has put together...let no man put asunder.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 10:36 PM

so...God was happy with the many separations that did work?....or was just not paying attention?

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: Amos
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 11:00 PM

Let's leave Him up to His devices, and leave our own to our own....

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 11:42 PM

It's days like today that one doesn't mind people's proclivity for supposing "God" is only male.

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: Art Thieme
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 12:45 AM

I was walking down the sreet the other day and saw 2 siamese twins fighting so I tried to separate them. It was a thankless task. They were fighting because the other one wanted to drive. They ultimately solved it by moving to England-------and everything turned out just great.------------------So, Jim Clark, if you see them over there, please, give 'em both my love.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: Cluin
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 02:22 AM

Were they Iranian or Siamese then?

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: GUEST,Jim Clark..London.England
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 05:51 AM

Sorry,but I cannot agree that killing these two unique humman beings was the right thing to do just because they wished to live seperate lives....I would love to have decent eyesight,but if any surgeon was foolish enough to kill me in the process of trying to give me this,then surely that would be something qiute wrong..
The two girls were I believe perfectly healthy apart from having suffered the terrible misfortune of being born joined at the head..they were able to get around and think independantly.the news reports showed them running around and praying together no medic had the right to take their lives away...They might not have been able to have all they wished for in life,then none of us can,but they most likely had many years ahead of them of experiencing the joyous things in life...29 years must surely be enough time to become accustomed to a situation....

If you believe what was done to these poor young women was right..Then surely you no doubt also believe all people born with physiological or mental differences should be the subject of euthanasia like medical experimentation....There was nothing to be gained in trying to seperate these twins...no doubt their are siamese twins who can be seperated by virtue that they are not joined by the most vital organ of their being,but these were not that type....

It says a lot about the medical ethics of Singapore that this operation was allowed to happen at all and that it did not take place in the west where surely such an impossible procedure would not have taken been sanctioned for obvious fear of harming the patients...I feel sure the founder of Singapore and London zoo Sir Stamford Raffles (wh the Raffles hospital was named after) would not have felt proud to have had his name put to this misadventure...

JC...

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 06:52 AM

Mr. Clark.......Please post your e-mail address as many of us are obviously in need of your services. For instance, right now I am considering taking a piss but I feel I need to check it out with you first. Now that I have given up my right to self-determination, I expect you to be on hand to make any and all decisions for me. Perhaps you could publish a few guidelines which would make it easier for both of us. For instance, it is okay to shit twice a day but anything above and beyond that I need to check out with you.

I apologize for already eating breakfast and having some coffee. Can you get back to me though ASAP? I take Lasix and have to piss like a race horse right now and since you are the Almighty One, Knower of All Things, and Grand PooBah of Life Functions, this is a decision falling under your domain.

Ya' know, I can't help but notice your name.....Jim Clark. Another Jim Clark was a hero of mine, but I am sure you don't approve of him at all. He risk his life almost daily for no other reason than to go fast in cars. The only thing he had to offer to you I guess was entertainment value but for many of us he was a remarkable man, an artist and craftsman without peer. He died 35 years ago driving an F2 car in the rain in a practice at Hockenheim. I'm sure you believe he wasted his life.....but it was his life, his choice. You don't get that do you? No....I didn't think so...............

Spaw

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 07:52 AM

It's interesting to read these letters, which are reminiscent of the ones that flew when Dr Christian Barnaard performed the first heart transplant in Groote Schur in South Africa. Then, too, the chances of survival were tiny, yet patients pleaded for the chance to try. Now this is almost a standard procedure.

Of course we should do other things first: for instance, blast Africa with pro-condom and pro-safe-sex broadcasts, to override the puritanical attitudes that can lead to people catching the sickness, and force the big pharma companies to supply their drugs cheaply enough to cure the pandemic.

We should have worldwide socialised medicine - and worldwide programmes to stop people getting sick, and influence people to eat and exercise well.

I'd better stop there...

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: Jeri
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 08:01 AM

29 years is also enough time to make up one's mind about whether one wants to continue living the same way. It was THEIR decision. From what I read on this, they had to convince the doctors to take the risk - NOT the other way around.

The operation wouldn't have been done in the west, not out of fear of harming the patients so much as the ensuing law suit. We have a tendency to decide what's right for everybody and not let them choose for themselves.

They knew what their lives were like. They weighed the risks: separate lives vs death. They decided, not other people who thought they knew better and were more right. THEY decided.

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 10:04 AM

If they'd been told that the chances of it coming off successfully were great, and there was nothing to worry about, then it'd be right to say that they'd been tricked into agreeing,and that there wasn't informed consent. But that does not appear to have been the case. Ladan and Laleh knew what was involved, it appears, and they chose to take that risk.

Incidentally, I note the implicatioin from a few people that the level of medicine in a Singapore Hospital can't possibly be as good as "in the west". A curious assumption.

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: PeteBoom
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 10:48 AM

Ya know, every story I saw on this before and after, mentioned that the expected chances were 50/50 at best. Seems to me they decided that the chance to develop as two individual persons warranted taking the 1 in 2 chance.   

There comes a time when the person must make a decision and run with it. Not the government, not some other well-meaning institution. The desire and drive to be beholding to no man/person/government was rather a strong sentiment at one time in the UK and the States. Seems to me that more folk could use a lesson in that these days.

These young women made their decision, insisted against the "experts", and agreed that the chance of living as individuals outweighed the price of death. I hope they find their peace.

Pete

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: GUEST,Jim Clark..London.England
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 10:56 AM

No one would blame the girls for wishing to be able to be seperated,but then we are talking about Iran a country who's notorious regime has sought to control the mind of its population for generations...I would dare say the countries religious doctrines had more than a small part to play in making the minds of these girls who no doubt only sought to be the same as all others they knew in a society where being different or individual condition let alone A physical deformity can be a life threatening condition.....So some either misguided or just plain glory seeking members of the medical profession offer then a way out of their predicament and by the way they mention to them theirs only a fifty fifty chance of surviving the operation (perhaps they should have said cat in hells chance)Yes of course they made their minds up for themselves,like everybody in such shining examples of liberal thinking nations like Iran equips its population to....

Get real all those who confuse freedom of expression with being offered a lethal injection...theres nothing free about being dead before your time...Life is far too sweet,and should be cherished whilst the possiblity of enjoying one more moment of it exists...

JC...

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: PeteBoom
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 11:02 AM

Ummm, Jim? Could you point us to where you're getting your information that "some either misguided or just plain glory seeking members of the medical profession offer then a way out of their predicament", because that runs counter to the stories I read from Reuters and other sources.

Just curious.

Pete

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 11:18 AM

Of course all people in Iran are incapable of making informed choices... I'm sure I read that they hadn't lived in Iran since they were very small anyway.

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: GUEST,Jim Clark..London.England
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 11:19 AM

So you believe all you read in the press..Then you'll also believe doctors cure most of their patients another bit of wishful thinking ..However they print it..Life is sweeter than death,and a cat in hells chance is a cat in hells chance...

JC..

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: greg stephens
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 11:21 AM

Jim, how do you know Sir Stamford Raffles is on your side in this one?

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: GUEST,Jim Clark..London.England
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 11:24 AM

Because he wasnt obsessed with the notion that death is better than life which is something of an Islamic premise...

But I cant claim to have met Stamford....

JC...

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 11:24 AM

But is life in which you are extremely unhappy and unfulfilled better than a small chance of life where you believe you will be very happy and fulfilled? At what level of chance/risk does the procedure become unacceptable and how does that relate to the level of suffering? If someone told you you had a choice of being joined forever at the head to some other person, or you could flip a coin and either go free or die, what choice would you make? And maybe it doesnt matter what choice you would make as long as you can see that other people might reasonably make a different choice. These things are never a cut and dried black and white issue.

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: PeteBoom
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 11:28 AM

I recognize this argument! Its a conspiracy right? It involves the Queen, the Pope, the Rothechildes and the Colonel before he went tets up, right? Isn't that the same logic we just had with the existance of Jesus thread?

Ya know what? I think it is YOUR fault those two died. Yours and yours alone. YOU were one of the murdering doctors that convinced them to have the surgery and then got the media to LIE.

I'm done here then.

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: GUEST,Jim Clark..London.England
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 11:28 AM

Cut and dried how very apt a term for what was done to these girls who probably had many years of life ahead of them until false hope stole it all away...

JC...

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: Big Mick
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 11:35 AM

I'll tell you what I do know. Folks like Jim, with their paternalistic, and jingoistic, attitudes cause a great deal of problem in the area of human relationships. One might have a discussion of whether risk is worth the potential gain/loss on any given subject. But in the end it comes down to the individual choice made. If Jim were able to produce one shred of evidence that these young women were unfairly forced or coerced, we might have something to talk about. But he cannot. Everything I have read and watched showed me two intelligent, faithful, and powerfully brave young women. They knew the odds and chose to live and die bravely. How can one do anything but honor their choices and their lives?

I salute these two women. May God be good to them.

Mick

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: Amos
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 11:49 AM

Jim:

You keep casting this incident in the context of doctors killing the girls. I take exception to that characterization. If you have any evidence that the medics involved did anything short of their best I'd like to hear it. They were not exercising the right to kill anyone and implying that is a really piss-poor use of rhetorical device. Who do you think had any intent to kill either of them? On the face of it that is an absurd proposition, it seems to me.


A

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 12:01 PM

Okay Folks.......Obviously this has reached "troll" status....intentional or otherwise. JC ain't goin' to produce anything but opinion because there are no facts to support his position. Congrats Jim....Have it your way.....and I can't wait any longer to take a piss so stand aside...or not (preferably).

Spaw

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 12:22 PM

I would suggest that "JC" find someone willing to handcuff themselves to him for at least 24 hours and it has to be in such a way that they cannot look directly at one another, even better if upper mobility is severely limited, while he takes a piss, tries to make love to his SO, wipes his arse, gets comfortable in bed, drives a car, plays an instrument, goes to venues he likes, that they aren't interested in, etc. Oh, and I wouldn't use those initials if I were him, since the original "JC" would have none of his unkindly judgement.

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 01:25 PM

But you've got to take into account the self-evident fact that no Iranian, and indeed no Muslim, can possibly be considered able to take any decisions for themselves. The same no doubt applies to various other categories of people.

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: Art Thieme
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 11:44 PM

Jim,

Just try to think of it as a 14,869 trimester abortion. ((***BIG SMILE***))

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: GUEST,Jim Clark..London.England
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 05:38 AM

How about discussing this issue without resorting to personal insult...What happened to these girls was attrocious in the full gaze of the world media...One day they had life,and one day they didnt..of course being conjoned at the head is just about as awful a fate as anyone could wish for,but as has been stated despite all this they appeared to be intelligient happy individuals who had even graduated in law so life held many opportunities for them...These two girls who had managed to get through 29 years needed false hope to shatter any acceptance of their situation they had achieved like a bullet in the brain..What they were subjected to was even more brutal...

This was not a Christian Barnard pioneering life saving operation..It was a reckless waste of two lives..Many live with debilitating physical deformity(one of the most famous severely disabled being Stephen Hawkins),but given help to see the bigger,brighter picture of what can be achieved in the land of the living,most I can assure you will opt for life....These girls needed someone to remind them of all the good in their lives,not someone to offer an impossible operation..and a promise of meeting Allah in the holy land...

I have never tried to speak for anybody else on this matter ,but myself. I am merely expressing my own opinions so please concentrate on the discussion in hand and desist from turning this into a burn Jim Clark at the stake for simply stating that believe the promise of life over death must surely be one I would opt for...

JC....

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 06:02 AM

"...one I would opt for..." Implying that some people are allowed to choose, but others aren't to be permitted that liberty.

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 07:11 AM

So what's to discuss?

You gave your opinion and reasons.....Many of us gave our opinion and reasons. You think many of us are full of shit......Many of us think you are full of shit. We're now left with nothing but shit.

Next.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 07:33 AM

Jim, you began one of your posts with the word "sorry" and I thought you might be going to own up to being a spoilt brat, oblivious to the fact that for a majority of people on this planet life is anything but sweet.

If the Iranian twins "appeared" to be happy, intelligent, etc, in what sense do they appear not to have made up their own minds about the operation? Your stuff about counselling is pious crap. As Spaw or someone suggested, who is going to be arrogant enough to guide intelligent people in that situation on how to face up to it (apart from you, I mean)? Your suggestion of baleful Islamic influence on their decision is ignorant drivel.

Life is indeed precious, but it is also fragile and comes with no guarantees. It can also be misery from beginning to end and if someone living such as life wanted to cut their losses (I dib't suggest that the Iranians did) what the hell business is it of yours? Try reminding yourself once in a while that there are parts of the world in which life expectancy is little more than 29 anyway. What are you doing about that?

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 10:21 AM

This is beginning to remind me of the South Park episode where the nurse has her dead conjoined twin's foetus attached to the side of her head; except in that there was one wise person (Kyle) and a whole townful of well-intentioned but hysterical idiots.

Oh, and Jim: if you ever do consider surgery to correct your eyesight, remember that every anaesthetic has a small but definite risk of fatality.

Steve

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: JenEllen
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 10:39 AM

Art, for your birthday, you can buy me a new keyboard....LMAO and spit tea evuh'whare

I have to agree with kat's they cannot look directly at one another, even better if upper mobility is severely limited, while he takes a piss, tries to make love to his SO, wipes his arse, gets comfortable in bed, drives a car, plays an instrument, goes to venues he likes, that they aren't interested in, etc.

Have none of you ever HAD sisters? Holy shit. I've been with mine since her birth, and the thought of THOSE 29 years being stuck together 24-7 would have driven me stark raving mad. Not only do you have to do things with them, but you have a witness to everything you've done and thought. Repellant. These women probably did just as ALL sisters do, and I'll bet there were plenty of nights spent in girlie-talk, and talking about what the future would bring for them, and I'll bet that more than once, death entered the picture (these ladies weren't stupid).

If you have to pull God into this (WHHHHHHY do people always have to pull gods into this?) then perhaps this episode was a lesson for YOU. Leave Ladan and Laleh alone. Get off your sorry ass and go hug your brothers and sisters, and count your blessings and thank your god for not seeing fit to conjoin the two of you.

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: Amos
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 10:47 AM

Amen. Sistuh.

A

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 12:28 PM

Jim, unless I misunderstood the following statement (context is sometimes difficult to assess here), I think it points out what your statements imply to me:

....These girls needed someone to remind them of all the good in their lives,not someone to offer an impossible operation..and a promise of meeting Allah in the holy land...

That statement implied to me that you were almost sneering at the faith that these women had in their God. But that was the basis, it seems to me, of their decision. Their absolute belief in their afterlife and redemption allowed them accept the risk as being not much of a risk at all. You seem to imply that that is ridiculous and makes their value system foolish. The only thing that is important is living in this world. That is why you are coming off the way you are here. Many of us do not fear death, in fact we consider it as just one more waypoint in the journey. Death is only a consideration as to how we live. It is but one more factor to weigh.

I would hope that I would be as fearless, and faithful, to my beliefs the next time I am staring into the breach. I have often said that I see heroes every day. These two women were very heroic. God be good to them.

Live your life by your values, sir. Just don't condemn others who do the same.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: PeteBoom
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 01:06 PM

Mick - yer wasting words. Our JC here has all the answers. He reminds me of one who has never faced death - his own or anyone close to him. His personal prejudices and ill-education come shining thru in this thread.

The true path of Islam embraces death no more than that of Christian, Jewish, Taoist or any other religion I can think of. There are evil ones who will wrap themselves in sheep's clothing and twist words to their own end. That is human nature. In the end they are found out and served up, cooked in their own hate.

If you claim to embrace life, you must also embrace death. If you fear one you must fear the other. Death and life are part of the balance of the universe. If you claim to embrace one and fear the other then you are not following the path to its logical conclusion. You are either deceiving yourself as to the meaning, or, you are a hypocrite and a liar.   

Stand Fast.

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 02:25 PM

"I,was,realy[sic],sad,to,hear,of,the,deaths,yesterday
of,the,two,29,year,old,siamese,twin,girls,joined,
at,the,head"
I,was,also,sad,to,hear,of,their,deaths,as,I'm,sure
everyone,else,here,was,
BUT,,they,were,NOT,girls,they,were,well,educated,adults.
They,had,a,risky,operation,[as,thousands,of,others,do
every,day].
Sadly,it,did,not,work,but,the,doctors,were,highly,trained
and,I'm,sure,they,did,their,best.
Have,you,thought,of,the,problems,that,these,two,would,
face,as,they,entered,middle/old,age[mobility,problems,etc]?

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: Amos
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 03:07 PM

(john--PLEASE get a new keyboard!! These comma-separated morphemes are driving me nuts!)

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 03:50 PM

Maybe it's a case of food and shelter or keyboard. Or, as the song says:

In Hull there ain't no keyboards
That why we use them here...

john,I,don't,mind,the,punctuation,just,maybe,as,soon,as,you,are,able,you,might,get,a,new,one,eh?:-)

kat,laughing

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: Amos
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 04:04 PM

Hull Mudcatters got no keys!
Away, away!
The make their letters out of jellyfish knees
Away upon The Mudcat!!

Guess it's a quiet day around the nation. Makes me a leedle nervous to be honest! :>)


A

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: GUEST,Jim Clark..London.England
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 06:02 PM

Sorry Ratpack,but i'm not getting embroiled in your slanging match..I have expressed my thoughts on this matter...I dont claim to know every detail of the background to this case(then none of you do),but I have always believed doctors were meant to cure their patients not kill them...It seems they did the latter in this case...If the girls wanted to die then that was their bussiness...It is not the place of a doctor to intervene....

Yes one of them would in later life have died,and as in well documented cases before they would probably have taken the other twin with them,tragic as that would be that would have been a natural death....meanwhile these young woman had lives to live....now they only have their own funerals to attend....

Heres an obituary i've found at "Celebrity deathwatch"..it seems death has now turned these poor unfortunate young women into Celebrities...

Outpouring of grief as twins die
Women underwent 50 hours of continuous surgery
Tuesday, July 8, 2003 Posted: 12:33 PM EDT (1633 GMT)

http://www.cnn.com/2003/HEALTH/07/08/conjoined.twins/index.html

(CNN) -- The deaths of two conjoined Iranian twins following
unprecedented surgery to separate them has prompted an outpouring of
grief around the world.

Ladan Bijani died when her blood circulation failed after the operation
to separate the twins' brains, officials at Singapore's Raffles
Hospital say. Her sister Laleh died when her circulation failed
one-and-a-half hours later.

Mourners gathered outside of Raffles Hospital and the sad news spread
quickly through the twins' home country of Iran. Thousands of tributes
have been sent to CNN.com. (Your say)

The 29-year-old twins -- both law graduates -- had two distinct brains,
but they were fused together, requiring a team of international doctors
to spend many painstaking hours separating them in surgery dubbed
"Operation Hope."

At a news conference, hospital chairman Dr. Loo Choon Yong said that
when complications arose after their brains were separated, surgeons
had the option to attempt to stabilize them and transfer them to
intensive care, or continue with the most risky part of the surgery.

"The team wanted to know once again what were the wishes of Ladan and
Laleh," he said. "We were told that Ladan and Laleh's wishes were to be
separated under all circumstances.

"We knew the risks were great -- we knew one of the scenarios was that
we would lose both of them," he said.

He said the twins took 50 hours of anesthesia and continuous surgery
well and doctors had been "hopeful but very cautious."

After the brain separation, there was some bleeding which they
tolerated well for a while, he said. But Ladan's surgery began to fail
and she died at 2.30 p.m. (0630 GMT) on Tuesday.

"Laleh was critical but holding on. Surgery to her brain continued. She
continued to receive a blood transfusion. However, her circulation
began to fail also. The whole team did everything to save her." Laleh
died at one-and-a-half hours later.

"We are very grateful and thankful for the help and sacrifice of so
many specialists, doctors, teachers, nurses and other people, all
united with one common purpose, to do something -- anything -- that can
help Ladan and Laleh fulfill their wishes.

"We also want to thank so many people for their prayers -- whether they
are Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, or Muslim -- everyone had been praying
for the twins and we are grateful because as doctors we know there's
only so much we can do, and the rest we have to leave it to the
Almighty."

In Iran, the operation has dominated news coverage in the country. "May
God bless their souls and reward them with peace in their eternal
life," said the Islamic Republic of Iran News Agency, in condolences
"to all Iranians across the globe on loss of the two kind sisters on
Tuesday in Singapore City."

Willing to face the risks
The twins made a big impression around the world with their display of
courage and bravery going into the dangerous operation.

Doctors at one point tried to talk them out of the operation, but the
sisters said they were willing to accept the risks and face those
dangers to lead separate lives.

Earlier Tuesday, neurosurgeons carefully teased apart packed brain
tissue millimeter by millimeter in a delicate and risky procedure on
the third day of the operation.

Surgery to separate the twins, who were joined only at the head, began
on Sunday and doctors had to battle against unstable blood pressure
levels as they slowly split apart the fused brains.

The complicated process of paring apart the twins' brains began late
Monday and separating them was one of the most challenging parts of the
surgery.

Prior to separating the brains, surgeons completed the process of
rerouting a single large vein that served to drain both their brains.

An international team of neurosurgeons, dozens of doctors, plus support
staff created a bypass for Ladan, using a vein grafted from her leg.

This caused another complication, Kumar said, as blood circulation
between the twins became unstable.

A landmark procedure
The operation was a landmark procedure. Although Singapore doctors
performed a similar operation in 2001 on infant Nepalese girls, surgery
on adult twins is unprecedented.

The operation is more difficult in adults than in children whose brains
are better able to recover from the surgery.

Twins joined at the head are the rarest of conjoined twins, occurring
one in every 2 million births. Twins joined elsewhere occur once in
every 100,000 births.

The Bijanis' operation was considered elective because the women likely
would live a normal life span without it.

However, testing showed the sisters had high intracranial pressure,
which, if untreated, could cause frequent debilitating migraines and
impaired vision as well as deteriorating brain function, the hospital
said.

The sisters made an impression on Singapore's public, in part because
of their cheerful demeanor before the operation. Thousands of cards,
flowers, and offers of support were sent to the hospital from around
the world.

The hospital paid for pre-operative fees and the medical costs involved
in operation. The operating surgeons waived their professional fees.
The government of Iran said Monday it would pay $300,000 for
post-operative care.

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 06:15 PM

"I'm not getting embroiled in your slanging match"

???

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: Alba
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 06:25 PM

" We were told that LADAN AND LALEH'S WISHES were to be seperated under all circumstances"

Which part of this request isn't clear?

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 06:36 PM

Okay Jim........Let's put it in another context. Let's make it about YOU. Here is your scenario:

You have had several heart surgeries, including open heart to do a quad by-pass. An ablative surgery also to aid in an arrhythmia. Additionally, you have hypertension and worst of all you have an aortic dissection which is a type of aneurysm. In this case, one of the three walls of the aorta has split away for the entire length of the aorta from just below the arch to the femoral arterial branch. Now you find that your mitral valve is severely malfunctioning and must be either repaired or replaced.

Now you can go on living, no time guarantees, but with a pretty limited quality of life. The option for surgery to repair or replace the valve is not really good because you have already had your chest cracked once but even worse, that aorta is a problem for ANY surgery. It's an even bigger problem for heart surgery becasue the heart lung machine reverses the flow in it and it could let go anytime during the surgery or even in post op. Of course it could also rupture anytime as well, but it's pretty stable and the surgery will put it under extreme pressure. There are also a lot of other problems associated with any heart surgery such as possible brain/idney/liver damage and that type of thing.

Half a dozen quality heart surgeons turn you down and say they would only attempt it as a last resort. Then you encounter another noted heart surgeon who lays out all the risks aftere doing lots of tests and tells you he has a new method that might work, but your odds are still less than 50-50. If you have the surgery, the only real improvement will be in your quality of life, no extra time guarantees. Even then though, you can't expect to be a teenager again...but a better life than what you are having. Now it's time to decide.

Whatcha' gonna' do Jim?

Spaw

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 06:42 AM

Jim, I do feel that maybe you got jumped on a little and suggestions like "troll" are a bit unfair but I can't see that you have helped your own cause. Perhaps you feel to strongly about this one and are a little too blinkered by your own world view.

Some of your suggestions seem to be that the girls were misled, either by doctors or by thier own religion (assumed as Islam). Let's not forget that they were qualified lawyers. Our backgrounds experiences in life do affect our views but surely these clearly intellegent people were far better placed that anyone else to make a rational choice about having this operation.

If you want to through the God line in, we must rememeber none of us KNOW what God's will is or even if God really exists. It is all down to belief.

From that I could suggest twins such as them could have religious beliefs that God intended them to be that way and they shouldn't be separated - I'd support their conviction. They could believe life is too difficult, they would rather be dead than continuing the existance and jump at a 50/50 chance - I'd support them. Even a doctor may feel this is too close to playing God or that they are giving the persons the greatest chance of a real life - either way, ultimately, I would support their choice.

For me, the only debatable areas would be if they had been put under undue pressure to accept the operation or given false information about thier chances of survival. I don't bleive that either of these occurred.

Elle, you ask about gods being brought into things. These things involve our own morals and beliefs. For those of us with religious beliefs, our ideas about our god is naturally going to play a part in it. It's not really any different to those who believe there is no god and argue thier morality from that view point. Whose to say who is right - can you guarantee me there is no god?

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: GUEST,Jim Clark..London.England
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 07:01 AM

Lets leave God out of it hey!....I am not remotely religious..the only God I recognise is the world and universe I can see with my own eyes...I have no problem with those that place a human explanation to our existence as long as they do it peacefully....

It seems to me that todays high priests are very often wearing white jackets ansd stephoscopes and occasionaly they start to believe their own hype....I'm sure the doctors who undertook this operation felt they were doing right,but what about the hypocratic oath that is supposed to debar doctors from taking unreasonable chances with their patients.....

Sorry but the patients in this case had no right to expect the doctors to carry out these wishes to seperate them at all costs...they only had a right to expect their doctors to take reasonable care to safeguard their lives...seperating them at all costs was not reasonable care...as I'm sure any medical lawyer would tell you..Of course in Singapore the laws applicable to western medicine may not apply..ipso-facto the operation took place there,and not in the west where protecting the patients life is supposed to be the first priority...

The patients in this case were not dieing(migraine however painful is not a life threatening condition)....so comparisons with high risk heart surgurey when faced with the probability of imminent death is totaly spurious..

JC....

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 07:12 AM

Hmm, Jim,

In your first post you say:

Why o Why did those doctors who carried out their operation feel like playing God.....Surely it is nothing short of murder to kill two people in the name of medical experimention

Now we have:

Lets leave God out of it hey!.... - who introduced God?

And:

Sorry but the patients in this case had no right to expect the doctors to carry out these wishes to seperate them at all costs

I was wrong in my previous post. Goodbye troll - I out of this.

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 07:17 AM

Oh and spaw, I wish I'd seen Jim Clark race... Do you know anything about his death? Oddly enough, I was chatting to a local landlord who is very keen on sports cars and motor racing last week. He suggested that Colin Chapman and corner cutting (to reduce weight) was the cause of the crash.

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: GUEST,Jim Clark..London.England
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 07:45 AM

Its called being metaphoricAL Billy Goat John...

JC...

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 07:57 AM

Not spurious at all Jim......Here are the same comparisons:

*Both are high risk
*The probability of not coming through either surgery is 50/50 at best
*Both have been turned down by other Doctors
*Neither surgery will extend life
*Both are "Elective" surgeries and are strictly "Quality of Life" operations

There are numerous others as well. You keep running on about "them"....What would you do in a VERY similar situation? Need an answer here Jim!!! I'm waiting...........

Spaw

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: GUEST,Jim Clark..London.England
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 08:02 AM

Catspaw,I'm not refering to your nonsense..Only the notion put forward that this operation in any way compares to high risk urgent lifesaving heart surgury.....It doesnt...Not that I expect you to understand the difference.

JC..

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 08:16 AM

JON:

Clark crashed into the woods at Hockenheim running in the rain. The lack of track safety barriers was common then and we can blame part of it on the track itself. He was an excellent wet driver, but in those conditions anything can happen.

Colin Chapman was beginning to ride high with his company and it was generally acknowledged that Lotus was always a bit ahead of the curve on many things, including using lighter materials when the technology wasn't really there yet. Whether a rear suspension component broke or there was a tire problem still falls under speculation. Knowing Chapman's proclivity for using questionable, lightweight, parts, the rumor mill was always bent toward the car having a problem. Also remember that Colin was less than loved by many. The other thing is that this was a Formula 2 carwhere more testing went on especially as the F1 standards were about to change so the F2 program was important.

Then there was Jimmy Clark himself. While most from Moss to Gurney to Stewart and the majority of the racing world acknowledged him to be one of the best that ever slid into a cockpit, he had one great failing according to some drivers including Jack Brabham. Jimmy knew little about the cars themselves in terms of engineering. He could communicate problems in setup quite well but relied on others to be sure the bits were all stuck together. To a man like Brabham (and later also remarked upon by the great Mark Donahue) this was taking an ultimate risk that could have been avoided. Interestingly enough, Mark Donahue, without question the finest engineer and mechanic to ever drive (and drive superbly), was killed due to a mechanical failure.

Who knows really Jon? As the saying goes, "That's racin'."

Spaw

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 08:20 AM

The heart surgery is NOT lifesaving. Read it again. No guarantees on extending life anymore than what can be expected without the surgery.

You can't answer without screwing your previous arguments can you? I'm still waiting.....and I think others may be waiting as well.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 08:33 AM

"Quality of life" only matters if you consider the possibility they may have chosen to die if no doctors had consented to try the operation. Then it becomes an lifesaving operation.

The doctors who made the decision were able to talk to the patients - something which none of us discussing the issue here did. You're second-guessing doctors and judging them based on a complete lack of the same information they had. If you say specifics don't matter, you're making the same mistake doctors are often accused of: not listening to patients and treating them as individuals. Whether any of us think they should have even considered suicide is irrelevant. It's an issue of ideals and personal opinions instead of an evaluation of a real situation. The likelihood of them doing so would have been very relevant to the doctors' decision.

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 08:39 AM

Thanks for the info spaw and I apologise for the drift. Last side track from me... I'm getting a bit more interest in F1 this year as things seem a bit more open. I hate it when one car seems too dominant. I still wonder what would have happened if Michael Schumacher (IMO by far the best current F1 driver) had the Williams a few years back when they were so dominant as I always felt it was his skill making lesser cars at least competitive.

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 08:45 AM

...and I believe what 'Spaw's talking about goes something like: "You can remain mostly confined to your bed or a little cart thingie for the rest of your life, hooked up to oxygen, or we can do this risky surgery. You decide." I believe most of the high risk heart surgery that's done is for quality of life and not to extend life, but I don't have any figures.

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 09:01 AM

Jon, I'd tend to agree on MS......he really is one of the greats. I think you can make a correlation to Moss with him in that respect although Schumacher's wins are greater obviously. Moss had some fine rides in many classes but I think what so many saw in him was his ability to take an inferior machine and get the last inch out of it.

As to F1......I always watch and this year is better by far. The problem is always the same though....You win with cubic dollars, not cubic inches. The idea that motorsports "advances" technology is a bit far fetched now since most of the innovations on F1 (and other series as well) are so far beyond what we will ever see on a passenger car, it's just ridiculous. I think a lot of series including F1 could take a lesson from NASCAR. Do the best you can to level the field. Money will always be important and those with more will do better, but the price of the cars is less, the R&D is less, the driver is a bigger part of the equation as is the Team, and to be frank, the competition is closer and better. Out of a 43 car field at a NASCAR race, well over half of the cars could win on any given day whereas in F1.......How many have any realistic chance of winning unless something catastrophic happens?

Lots of things to complain about with NASCAR.....maybe not enough technology and too many of the same racetrack (several of the new tracks are virtually identical), but gambling on a winner ain't a good idea!

Spaw

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 09:03 AM

That's true Jeri.....and none of us have any real idea what was in the mind of the twins. My guess is they felt like the heart patient......This is alive, but is it?

Spaw

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: GUEST,darlene
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 09:19 AM

I shed a tear when I heard those lovely cheerful girls had died.

However, I think that if you were to speak to people that live with serious medical conditions like theirs, many of them would say that death is a certainty, but an improved life is something they have got to take a chance on.

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 09:58 AM

Except for Jim Clark here of course...................

Spaw

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 10:43 AM

Another side track but this time perhaps related to this thread... Pip, my mother, was a physiotherapist dealing with the elderly in most of her career. In her case, we are not talking things like heart surgery but maybe things like a hip replacement on an 80+yr old.

I believe debates such as risks and even whether such an op is worthwhile on someone so old is worth it existed but Pip believed in it and had the pleasure of helping to rehabilitate a few people who had a new found freedom of mobility and from pain.

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: Amos
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 10:46 AM

It is an upsetting loss when such a gamble misses. And if it had succeeded, there would have been huzzahs, probably even from you, I expect, Jim. The operation apparently involved grueling hours of teasing apart mutual brain tissue -- this was not an ordinary SIamese twin deal. It sounds like the surgeons who made the effort were quite heroic about it.

Anyway,   this is an over, done with, gone story now.

They're dead, Jim.

And they were not murdered.

And I wish they had made it but they did not. Move on.

A

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 12:38 PM

from todays Washington Post: the first 3 paragraphs of an article based on interview with a doctor who participated.
(underlining mine!)

"The 29-year-old conjoined twins who died this week during surgery had unexpected anatomical connections that virtually guaranteed they would die in a single-stage operation to separate them. But a two- or three-stage operation done over weeks or months might have been successful, the American surgeon who helped lead the operation said yesterday.

However, the twins' instruction -- verging on an ultimatum -- that the single-stage separation surgery should be completed at all costs was honored by the medical team and by the patients' representatives, who were consulted halfway through the operation. That loyalty to the twins' wishes indirectly led to their deaths.

"In this situation, the twins' strong desire to go for broke played a significant role in the outcome," said Benjamin Carson of Johns Hopkins University. He was invited to help lead the operation because he had separated three other sets of head-joined, or craniopagus, twins."


full article here

I guess we can argue all day about what 'should' have been done when the difficulties were encountered....but I agree with the majority who think the wishes of the patients were the important issue.

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: JennyO
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 01:01 PM

Jim, you said:

"Sorry but the patients in this case had no right to expect the doctors to carry out these wishes to seperate them at all costs"

Who are you to say they had no right? God?

You have not been in their shoes. You have no concept of what their lives were like. Only they did, and only they had the right to decide. If you can't determine your own life, what sort of life do you have - one not worth living IMO.

Everything you do - every decision you make - counts for something - it is all part of your soul's destiny. You have to look at the big picture. We are all here to learn something. What are you here to learn, Jim?

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: GUEST,Jim Clark..London.England
Date: 13 Jul 03 - 12:42 PM

I heard on BBC radio 4 this morning that questions are being asked in Iran and Singapore about the ethics involved in this operation...I was rushing to get somewhere so I didnt make a very detailed note of what was being said,but I am certainly not the only one with the firm belief that these patients should not have died as they did due to the manner this operation was performed.....

I fully agree that it is fair subject to the consent of a patient to carry out life saving or improvement of quality of life surgical procedures if their is a reasonable(I'd say at least 70%)chance of the operation succeeding....in life and death incidences even non consential operation would be right in order to preserve life(as is normal procedure every day in trauma situations)...But in the case of these patients there appears to have been very little chance of success ..Doctors under the western system of medicine would not knowingly be permitted to carry out procedures certain to kill the patient,even if the patient had requested it,patients are very often suicidal,but medics are stopped from assisting them by virtue of the criminal law...

Funny isnt it how one reads that the Singapore government is seeking to earn massive income for its medical services...This high profile operation will have been better than a thousand advertising campaigns in attracting business from wealthy patients worldwide desperate for an operation no matter how hopeless their situation is...It all smacks of profiting from false hope to me....Of course us poor folks will never get the chance of one of these dubious big bucks private consultations so at least being for once being poor might be of some advantage.

JC....

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Jul 03 - 05:52 PM

please pay attention...

".Doctors under the western system of medicine would not knowingly be permitted to carry out procedures certain to kill the patient"

NO doctors, even in Singapore, were 'certain' this would be fatal...they discovered halfway thru that if MIGHT be...! And the patients had said.."do not stop....do your best, but we do not wish to live like this or go thru this again"

Mr Clark, you have some strong opinions about what people should be allowed to decide about their own lives and fate, but others have strong opinions contrary to yours. Go now...be sad at the outcome if it pleases you, but you are getting nowhere complaining about the decisions of others regarding their own situation.

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: LilyFestre
Date: 13 Jul 03 - 11:04 PM

Holy Touchy Topic Batman!!!!

From my point of view, these two adult women consented to have surgery....an elective surgery at that. They are the only two people who actually know how painful and difficult their lives had become due to being physically joined together. It seems they felt this surgery was a risk worth taking. Why second guess them?

Lily   =^..^=

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: GUEST,Jim Clark..London.England
Date: 14 Jul 03 - 02:36 AM

Bill D,

This is a debating forum....Understandy Englishy.......ipso facto world events do get discussed here.....Theres been a lot of pious nonsense spoken about this case....Those who argue that these young women should have been allowed to die at the alter of science in an operation that by all accounts was most unlikely to succeed...and was conducted with undue haste(ie should have taken place if at all,in stages over several weeks as has been admitted by a senior member of the team involved).....Would I daresay be singing a different song if it was members of their families involved....

Bill D..If you do not wish to discuss this subject then dont...Nobody has forced you to do so,but please dont try and censure those that do...

JC...

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: Jeri
Date: 14 Jul 03 - 08:43 AM

My interpretation of Bill's remarks is that there really isn't anything new being said by those of us who've already stated our opinions.

You don't think the twins themselves played the most crucial role, but it was the doctors who agreed to do a risky operation, and they wrong.

Quite a few folks here think it centers more on Ladan and Laleh and their wishes.

I feel that when doctors or anyone else assumes the role of making decisions for patients, that is playing God. Patients in the US (I don't know about elsewhere) can request a "do not resuscitate" order. If not for one of these orders, my mother might have lived a few more days, months, or possibly years, but she would have been trapped in a life she didn't want to live. I would have liked her to be around longer but it was HER choice to make, not mine and thankfully not the doctors'. I would have needed an enormous ego and a controlling nature to think I could steal that decision from her. I don't know what I would have needed to steal the decision from a couple of women I'd never even met.

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: GUEST,Jim Clark..London.England
Date: 14 Jul 03 - 10:50 AM

Jeri,Jeri,Jeri....This was not a do not resucitate case...Which would only apply to chronicaly ill patients here in the UK as well..The subjects of the operation were not chronicaly ill..It was possible to ascertain even probably without surgery that the patients brains were fused...In any case having ascertained that this was the case one doesnt realy have to be a neuro surgeon to know that continuation of such an operation would most likely prove fatal(The Germans had refused to do it because of the dangers already)..as I've stated before and i'm sure any dozen medical lawyers will agree with me...the operation should only have been carried on to seperate the patients if it was reasonably possible whilst maintaining not only life,but the same cognitive ablities the patients had prior to the operation....

The reason I continue responding to the posts on this subject are that several posters have made qiute offensive remarks about myself just because I've expressed my own opinions about this case...

I also happen to believe,despite the well manicured facts presented by the media who would have been fed most of their information by the private hospital concerned that what took place needs to be questioned so that other unfortunates do not become the next victims of a private medical marketing jamboree....

JC...

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: Amos
Date: 14 Jul 03 - 11:08 AM

As I understand the doctors in the case -- some of them anyway -- begged the girls to not proceed with the operation; but the girls insisted on it. I scarcely see how this constitutes a medical marketing jamboree, a phrase which I think constitutes rhetorical exaggeration of the first order. Do you have any facts to cite which support the notion that the ladies were taken advantage of in some way? Given the complexity and historic natur eof the operation, it obviously would have been far better marketing if it had succeeded, not so?

A

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: GUEST,Jim Clark..London.England
Date: 14 Jul 03 - 06:13 PM

Amos...Please dont talk nonsense....Doctors who find themselves begging patients not to have an operation should let their sense guide them and refuse to be involved as they would if directly asked to assist in a suicide at least in western medical circles anyway..

If you look around the net you'l find articles of the much lesser discussed subject of the drive by the Singapore government to generate income by attracting wealthy overseas patients to its hospitals....When the twins died the Singapore government and the hospital were extremely nervous of the adverse publicity it might bring...luckily for them the bulk of the media swallowed their spin reporting the twins deaths as simply the tragic end to an alleged pioneering operation and judging by this forum many of the public seem to have swallowed that explanation...I've discussed my opinions on how pioneering this reckless operation was so I shan't bore everybody by going over it again...

JC...

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: NicoleC
Date: 14 Jul 03 - 08:07 PM

No "mainstream" operation today would exist without pioneering operations involving patients willing to take the risk. Not modern wonders like heart surgery and organs transplants and not everyday operations like cesearean sections and skin grafts.

No lifesaving drugs would exist, from penicillin to polio vaccines to modern anti-inflammatories and insulin treatments.

No medical treatment today is without risk. Not a single one.

There's not a medical procedure, not a drug, not an ancient herbal remedy that didn't require someone, at some point, taking a deep breath and choosing the risk. If you want medical treatment of any sort, it comes with a degree of risk. Since the patients are the ones at risk, isn't it far, far better that THEY decide how much risk they are and are not willing to accept?

Shamefully, medical history includes cases where doctors experimented on unwilling or ignorant patients (the Nazis, the Tuskeegee Airmen, etc.) Do you care to place your health decisions completely in the hands of someone else, or do you wish to make your own choices? Because you can't have it both ways. You can't blame the doctors for failure while demanding choices of your own.

I am humbly thankful that I have never had to make such an agonizing choice.

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: JennyO
Date: 15 Jul 03 - 10:20 AM

Jim, you say you are having a discussion and that you are responding to people's posts. What you said after my post of 12 July 1.01pm was not in any way a response to it.

You still have not responded to what I and several others have said, which is basically that these women had a right to decide whether to take the risk, and that your idea of trying to take this right away from them and deciding that you know what they need better than they do, is playing God. What do you say to that? How do you justify taking away their right to self-determination?

Jenny

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: GUEST,Jim Clark..London.England
Date: 15 Jul 03 - 04:47 PM

JennyO .....I'm rather all talked out on this subject....I am not a politician or a criminal lawyer so my expressing an opinion cannot take anybodies rights away..only possibly change a few minds that might help(most likely not)in stopping others being sacrificed in this way

I would however repeat that legaly under the western system of medical ethics it was not the place of the surgeons to assist in the twins request to die if the operation proved to be impossible....medical professionals are committed to saving life not ending it....

JC....

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: JennyO
Date: 16 Jul 03 - 10:17 AM

Jim, it wouldn't matter how many minds you changed. What you are hoping for is that those involved would refuse to help them, thereby taking away their right to choose. And I repeat, THAT is playing God.

And if, down the track, somebody with an intolerable condition / circumstance such as theirs is told by someone like you that they will just have to put up with it because you know what's best for them, That will be WRONG.

By the way, medical professionals are committed to improving quality of life, as well as saving life. The operation was very risky, but not impossible.

I still don't feel that you have responded to the point I made about personal freedom and the right to choose, but I am quickly getting to the point of not wanting to bother any more. It seems your aim is to continue to be right, not to communicate.

I give up.

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: Art Thieme
Date: 16 Jul 03 - 12:04 PM

It truly is a matter of choice(s) being made --- and whether they were educated choices or not --- by all concerned?!?!

But being human, our emotions, feelings and pain tolerance levels must be taken into acount.

Jim, it is over and done. Blame need not be assigned.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: Art Thieme
Date: 26 Jul 03 - 07:48 PM

...and that's the last word !!!!!!

Art