BS: I heard nothing of this?!?

Subject: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: GUEST,James Bradburn
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 03:06 AM

just seen this link
http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=137&id=1332162004

it is about a 15 year old boy, who was abducted, had his eyes gouged out, was stabbed repeatedly, before being burned to death. All because he was white. His abductors, Daanish Zahid and others, trawled the street in their stolen Merc, to find a white person.

i heard nothing about this in the press or on tv. however, we still get told about Stephen Lawrence all the time. If this victim was black, we would never hear the last of it.

Notice how the inquiry has been rejected, as it is not "politically correct"

have you ever heard of these white victims?
http://www.seanbryson.com/articles/stephen_lawrence.html

what is the country up to, this is insane
thoughts?

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Gervase
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 06:10 AM

BNP Troll alert. Don't feed it.

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 06:23 AM

You just have! oh.... so have I.....

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 06:35 AM

i agree, everybody ignore this rubbish.

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: GUEST,James
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 11:10 AM

everyone ignore this, yes dictator. It is fact, what are your opinions on it? i am against the BNP, i think they are dangerous, but if you take a look at their site, they arent all nazi thugs.

i know many old people who are voting for them, as they feel they have been let down and have become second class citizens.

you say these BNP are a threat to democracy, and scream democracy, yet you are the ones who want to ban the BNP, and who discriminate against and refuse to employ BNP members.

Answers
James

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 11:13 AM

Go away.

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 12:20 PM

You all know Im a pinko commie, but I mentioned this case in another thread.
I have absolutely no time for the BNP, and as far as I know they have played no part in this murder.

However there is a very serious racial problem in Glasgow,and the police are afraid to tackle it due to anti rasist legislation.

I cant agree with you people who want to stick your heads in the sand.
Surely on this forum we can discuss any subject.
Even if the person who stared this does turn out to be a "troll",that dosn't stop the rest of us giving our opinions

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 12:24 PM

So a 15year old boy was murdered then? I just thought the first post was bollocks.

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 12:30 PM

I am with ake on this. Just because a fact (the murder) may be useful propaganda fodder for the BNP, it desn't make it any less of a fact or any less worthy of attention. Share and share alike. The good and the bad. Truth has no colour.

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 12:31 PM

I treat the post as legit, until someone tells me it isn't - with some proof.

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: John Routledge
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 12:34 PM

The initial post is merely designed to stimulate activity :0)

Please read the full press report and make up your own minds.

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: artbrooks
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 12:55 PM

I read the reports. A white person, apparently (by his name) of Arabic or Muslim descent and who was barely out of his teens, murdered a white teenager, apparently (also by his name) of Scots descent. A gang murder.

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 01:15 PM

A racist gang murder Art.

Im in Glasgow often,and there are areas which are almost out of bounds, because of racist gangs.

The main problem is between young Pakitstanis and local youths,but there is a very unhealthy sub culture going on in the very poor areas.
The Pakistani community is hardworking, sober and reasonably well off and Muslim. They also have an intense contempt for the local population, who in general are drunken ,obese, benefit obsessed and dispirited.

The real trouble is just beginning to start, as the Pakistanis beginto show their affluence.

I know a bit about this situation, so the first to shout racist at me better think twice...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: MarkS
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 01:34 PM

What does BNP mean?

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 01:43 PM

Troll nothing. I agree with Ake & EG (whom I know somewhat of, & respect), and with James Bradbury (who I know nothing of at all, but on this evidence has a serious point to raise & should not be dismissed as a troll).

From the experience of a friend many years ago (early/mid 80's), I can point out racism in this country. Whites were not significantly involved - it was (mostly) between Blacks & Asians. In the late 90's, a work colleague told me that, according to Sociological theory, it is impossible for ethnic minorities to be racist against the majority, it is merely reaction against repression, & therefore doesn't count (never such a load of crap have I heard...).

The news report appears to be genuine. Mr Bradbury raises two serious points (although his main para may state the case rather more emotively than the article allows for). First, that Stephen Lawrence & white racism *against* whatever is persistently thrust at us. Second, that {cynical}when there is the slightest possibility that racism against whites may occur, a deafening apathy falls upon the press, cos the latter don't flog copy, do it...{/cynical}

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: GUEST,James Bradburn
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 01:46 PM

hi, this thread is genuine.
the murder did happen, it was recent.
artbrooks, "the white person, apparently (by his name) of Arabic or Muslim descent" was not white, you can see that cleary in the picture.
i dont know which article you read, but it demonstrates how censored this story is.
It was not a gang murder. the killer and his friends, chose this child as he was white, that was the first time their paths had ever crossed. It was a very brutal murder, the boy was mutilated whilst still alive, and should have been in the media a lot.

The fact that very few of us are aware of it, shows how this has been "hushed up." If the whites had mutilated tortured then murdered a muslim child, i am sure we would never hear the end of this story.

In a society where awareness of the problems of "racism" is still all tied up with more than ten years of hysteria and propaganda over the possibly racist murder of Stephen Lawrence by a single stab wound – justice has not been done when not a single national newspaper has carried even the least mention of the trial and the verdict, with the notable exception of The Times, let alone any of the gruesome details of just how Kriss Donald suffered before he died.

Update:
one of the men involved has now been found guilty of race murder. But the 3 main suspects are sitting safe and free in Pakistan.

This political correct stuff is doing more harm than good i am sure. Many white people are very pissed off at this, and their anger could end up being directed at an Asain, rather than the twisted country we live in.
I have many Sikh friends who are just as sick of it as we are. they say that they are grateful that they can live in britian and like learning about british culture and heritage, as well as their own. i have a lot of respect for them as they try very hard to "be british," and have a lot of respect and morals.

People are getting sick of this, and so the BNP is gaining support. not from Nazi extremists, but from normal people who are at the end of their tether. The sad thing is, that all asians etc, will get dragged into this, even though many of them are just as sick of it all as we are.

As one woman in the area of the murder said, "people are walking on eggshells to keep the community stable."

If these media cover ups continue, i cant see happy times ahead. Well done the PC brigade.



left wingers go on about human rights, but they are the ones telling what we can and can't say or do.

The "ban the bnp" campaign is an example. The left go on about human rights, yet they will happily persecute and discriminate BNP supporters because of their political opinion. seems a bit hypocritical.

James
thoughts?

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 01:52 PM

Rascism is rascism no matter where it's coming from, and it's deplorable. Censoring discussion on these matters only makes the problem worse, as it promotes ignorance which in turn promotes rascism.

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 02:07 PM

Wel, Im a "left winger", and I hate political correctness which stifles debate.
But I hate just as much your attempt to spin this tragedy to the benifit of political thugs.

Scotland has a real urban racial problem arising, but it will never be solved by increasing the hatred....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 02:24 PM

Sounds like the real culprit in this case is poverty.

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 02:38 PM

Funny old world isn't it? Just when we thoigh we had got rid of Josh (see here) somebody called James comes along.

Yes Josh, sorry, James. You are certainly entitled to have your opinion and voice it. Just as we are entitled to tell you to go back and crawl under whatever stone you came from. There is no point whatsoever trying to racialy agitate people here. They have too much sense and are not as likely to be conned by this kind of drivel as your usual Sunday Sport reading idiot cronies.

If you want to do something really useful go and spout your racist nonsense in the black ghettoes of East St Louis or around the crack clubs of Moss Side. Make yourself a martyr and make everyone happy.

Cheers

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Megan L
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 02:43 PM

The case wasnt hushed up just because the english media didnt run it it has been regularly reported in Scotland.

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 02:45 PM

Yeah   Yeah ....But what about the PROBLEM?

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: artbrooks
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 02:49 PM

"White," of course, is a color, and neither of these individuals (and I did see pictures) is colored white. Try, just as an experiment, putting you hand down next to a piece of paper. We are all shades of tan.

The racial group more correctly called Caucasian includes both Europeans and Arabs. Pakistanis and Indians are Arians (like the Germans once pretended to be), and a mixture of Caucasian and Asian. Call it a "racial" issue if you want, or call it national or ethnic prejudice. Regardless, judging a person based upon the shade of tan/brown of their skin is moronic, no matter who is throwing the punches.

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 02:51 PM

Ake - having read Mr Bradbury's latest, I honestly don't think he's trying to promote 'thuggery'. I think he is struggling to express his p-o-v as naturally as he can, & I'll concede it is a fine line. How do you say that you don't like what the minority of the minority do, without appearing to be on the side of the minority of the majority? Cos someone with a point to prove will always try to twist your words...

My principal caveat, James, is that you have twice labelled the killing of Kriss Donald as racist. You have not offered any evidence as proof, nor has the article you linked to. Bare statement does *not* constitute proof (this is one of the things that I was getting at when I said "...rather more emotively..."). How do you differentiate between random thuggery, gang thuggery, & racist thuggery? And what are the deciding factors in this instance? If the best you can do is a media report, you have a very weak argument, I'm sorry.

B.Ign's post, for me, hits at least one nail plumb centre... So discuss!

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 02:53 PM

For fuck sake...It isnt about colour , its about culture and religion

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 02:55 PM

DaveTG - You post a lot of sense a lot of the time. I'm sorry, but that effort was prejudiced crap!

I'm prejudiced against Guests, & I still don't judge one Guest by another Guest's assumed name! He has a valid point, whether you like it or not. Debate the point, don't stoop to ad hominem - you're better than that!

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Davetnova
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 03:00 PM

Unforetuneatly the post is true. But it seems more to do with gangs than race.
A pakistani gang member was assualted in a nightclub by a member of another gang(white). He and his friends went looking for revenge. They abducted this young man because he was walking in the street that was the white gangs homeground. When he could give no information about the original attacker things escalated as they often do with violent nutters, and the young guy was brutally murdered. I think race was coincidental but the BNP having been trying to make capital out of it. I believe several BNP members were thrown out of court during the trial.
They should have thrown them in the Clyde but it would probably have done no good. Shit floats.

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 03:03 PM

Megan L is right, it was widely reported in Scotland. Radio Scotland had an in depth discussion on the subject, maybe it could be found in an archive somewhere?

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 03:08 PM

Sorry Raedwulf, I cross posted there.

James obviously knows little about the situation in Glasgow,and has latched on to this killing (and it is racist). to further the objectives of the BNP.

The problem is a meeting of two very different cultures as I explained already.
The Pakistani community see the poor Scots as contemptable, without ambition, dirty , undisiplined, unbelievers.

They themselves are upwardly mobile disciplined, family orienated and at the moment have no intention of mixing in any meaningful way with the Scots.
These differences are beginning to cause great racial tension,but how to solve them??...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Megan L
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 03:08 PM

Dont know where you are going akenaton but i have never found any area a no go zone, even in the days when the city was noted for its gangs.

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 03:11 PM

Now Davetnova's take sounds like closer to the truth. Not so clean-cut & headline grabbing as the original report would have you believe. Race-, perhaps, but gang- related more than anything, which seemed likely from the start. Trouble is, it's easier to scream "RACE!" at the start, than to dig & get dirty, maybe find something that doesn't suit your argument & won't sell copy nearly as well...

I don't blame James for that (many of the opposite side are at least as eager to do the same in their own favour). But it may serve as a salutary reminder to those too eager to see only one side of the coin!

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 03:26 PM

Raedwulf - thanks for the compliment:-) Sorry if this came across as 'predjudiced crap' but I was simply treating like with like. 'James's' post is not about gentle discussion and expandining the mind. It is about getting people to believe that black people are treated better than white people. As such it is racist drivel posted with no thought other than to turn people against those of another race.

I do not know where you are from but I am in a mixed race inner city area where I see this type of nonsense every day of the week. In the pubs I visit, the shops I by my food and, I am ashamed to admit, occasionaly in the folk club where I sing. Racist thugs do not all shave their heads and wear nazi armbands. The worst are those who wear suits and can spin a lovely argument. These are the ones that the lower eschelons believe in and get their information from. These are the ones who incite the violence.

I can guarantee that James (or Josh) is one of these. If he is not then I challenge him to do one simple thing. Prove who he is. If he can do that I will admit he is not as bad as I thought but simply going on an ill thought path that will still lead to the same conclusion - Racism.

Wherever he (or she) is he will be near another Mudcatter. Make yourself known, James. Shake the hand of that other 'catter. Join the big happy community where there is no predjudice!

What are the chances?

Cheers

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 03:33 PM

Regardless of the intentions of the initial post, there's no good reason why we can't discuss the matter at hand without descending into neo-nazi propaganda. Even if it does make an appearance, i doubt anyone here is going to be stupid enough to fall for such bullshit...even poor folks like me...

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 03:35 PM

Abit of a problem here for the PCs.
The Pakistani youths had been attacked in a pub previously , but not by the 15yr old Scot.
As far as I am aware he had no gangland affiliations.

It was a ramdom abduction and murder in broad daylight possibly as revenge, but definitly Racist....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 03:40 PM

If you mean, by discuss it, talk about why us poor white folks can get stabbed, murdered and raped in our beds while them evil pakis and niggers can get away with it I'm out of here...

I think I know your posts a bit better though, BI:-) Trouble is that people do 'fall for this bullshit'. If one person out of the millions ( ;-) ) reading the cat fall for it then the racists have won:-(

Easiest thing would be for me just to ignore it but I'm afraid it is a bit like a scab that I can't resist picking.

Let us just join together in sanctimonious condemnation of all racist acts:-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 03:40 PM

And Dave...."No prejudice"...Just try speaking your mind on this forum on homosexuality or race relations and see what happens..

   "the monstrous regiment descends"....on your head...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 03:43 PM

The act is abhorrent regardless of the motives... if it was racially motivated, it does not make it any 'worse' than if it was gang related, and vice versa... it was a truly evil and inexcusable attack.

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 03:44 PM

I don't think anyone is questioning that at all. Just the motives of the post:-(

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 03:51 PM

"If you mean, by discuss it, talk about why us poor white folks can get stabbed, murdered and raped in our beds while them evil pakis and niggers can get away with it I'm out of here..."


As far as i can see, it's only by discussing the matter openly we can remove the ignorance that leads to such attitudes.

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 03:53 PM

Ake - No, *not* definitely racist. I think you've missed the point. Kriss Donald was picked on because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. At this point, there seems no definitive evidence as to whether he was picked on purely because he was white, or because he was white *in the wrong place*.

I admit, it's a very fine distinction, but racism, as a rule is not territorial. Gang rivalry almost invariably is. From the sum total of the limited evidence available through the Cat, I would say that Kriss Donald was a gang killing, not a racial one.

He wasn't picked on because he was white. They could have picked virtually anyone from anywhere. They appear to have specifically cruised the area of a (white) rival gang. They could have have picked a number of white areas. What they chose was the area of the gang that had earlier offended them. Colour/race was, seemingly, beside the point.

The gangs may be loosely organised along race lines, but primarily they are clans. Groups of linked individuals, regardless of blood tie/prejudice.

I loathe the way the PC press automatically scream "Racist!!!" any time it's white vs. black. That doesn't mean I'll leap onto a potential black vs white scenario & look for the opposite. The ONLY clear cut thing about the Donald case so far seems to gang.

Not race.

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 04:04 PM

RAEDWULF..The pakistani gangs are exclusivly asian, and are from roughly the same area where the boy was abducted.

I am not trying to stir against asians, but am interested on hewaring views on how this tension can be eased, given that one side

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 04:06 PM

Sorry R   You were correct about SCots writers ...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 04:10 PM

DaveTG - Yeah it probably was a compliment, which you're doing your best not to deserve! :p

I may be an aggressive, opinionated & argumentative git (Ha! Like you're not! ;-) Alright, maybe not aggressive, in your case... ), I don't believe I've ever been accused of prejudice. I'm willing to cut James a certain amount of slack, why ain't you?

I have bitter experience of how online correspondence can be, unwittingly & unintentionally, misinterpreted. I'm willing to cut James a certain amount of slack, why ain't you?

I'll kill 'im when 'e shows 'e deserves it. 'E 'asn't so far. His last post seemed more knee jerk, true, but he's hardly BNP/the-British-Rumsfeld yet! You laid in on first go, which was not justified. You may be right & James' intentions may not be wholly benign (you may also be wrong, remember!). Nevertheless, it is a subject that bears rational discussion, & that is not what you were promoting!

B.Ign has said it again, in 03:33 & 03:43. Whatever you perceive as the intentions of the original poster... hijack the thread! Let's have a rational discussion! IMHO, the alleged Anti-Nazi League are as insufferable & intolerant as those they claim to combat. Which would you like to be classified as? Neither? Ah! Thought not! So discuss, rather than simply dis-!!

Consider yerself told off! ;-)

R

P.S. In case yers 'asn't h'identified the deliberately lahsy H'english, Eas' Lunnern. Yep, hefnic majori... *cough* minorities, met 'em all, got mates amongst 'em, never gave a flying fuck for skin colour, but I can recognise tribal human characteristics when I see 'em, & skin colour don't enter into it!

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 04:26 PM

"Trawled the streets looking for a white person"
as most [over 90 percent?] of the UK population is white, the can't have needed much trawling!

"we still hear about Stephen Lawrence all the time"
Bullshit, I listen to natinal radio, watch the tv news, and buy 2 newspapers a day, can't rember wehn stephen larence was mentioned in any of the media.
Do a check on Google News, and check for yourself

If your trying to present an argument, do so using facts, not made up crap anf histeria.

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 04:36 PM

John ...White folks are like hens teeth in Govan...Well except for Rab C Nesbit and Mary Doll ...Ake

Hope you wern't upset over my remarks on the Animal rights thread .

We cant agree all the time

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 04:48 PM

Would that be the "Stop slaughtering innocent animals, and smoking" remarks?
Whilst I am an ex slaughterman, [worked in 3 abbatoirs and a meat cutting plant], i no longer slaughter, I am now a delivery driver for an indian take away, however i do still smoke.

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 04:54 PM

And no, you didn't upset me, not much does.
The point I was making on that thread, was while folk might not agree with a legitamate business activity, they have the right to peaceful protest, but as soon as they stop been peaceful, ie commit any criminal offence, they should be dealt with severley, using the full weight of the law.

This obviously applies to Pro and Anti, ie recently there was a case of Pro Foxhunting lobby dumping dead animals, and obstructing the highway etc in London, totally unneccasery to make their point.

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 04:56 PM

I'm willing to cut James a certain amount of slack, why ain't you?

OK Raedwulf - I am (You bas%^&d! - I hate you for being so reasonable:p ) As I said - James, show yerself and I will shake your hand, believe that you have a valid POV and sit down and discuss it with you. I don't think I'll ever believe that stories like the one that started this are anything but rabble rousing diatribe but I will believe that James is not the author - Just mistakenly caught up in it.

But I do consider myself told off.

Any chance you could send Matron round with a blanket bath and enima...

:D

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 05:27 PM

No, you'd enjoy it!!!

R

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 06:14 PM

i think people have lost the plot with the word "racist."

I am not racist. Racist means you believe one race is superior over another.

I find no races superior over others. I love other cultures, and have many black and asian friends. The majority are great people. for example, our cities Sikh community laid a wreath at the Rememberence Day Service.

i dont like the way that racism has gone full circle, and now whites are being discriminated against as "positive discrimination." No discrimination is positive.
for example, it was proposed that black police should automatically enter at Seargent level, and job application forms need to know your ethnic background. If myself and one of my asian friends applied to join the police/ fire-service it is more likely that my friend would get the job. this i know is the truth, as one of friends used to do the interviews for the police.

Why cant the police force just be the police force assosiation. Why do we have to have, black police assosiation, ethinc police assosiation, that i think just leads to more seperation between different groups. Cant we all just be british, and get along. Not constantly have to learn about respecting other cultures at school or college. It only annoys asian children, and highlights again, the differences.
Why cant a job interview just not mention colour or ethnic background, and just recruit on a persons merits, not to reflect society.

why arent other cultures forced to respect our values and heritage. For example, Muslim Awareness Week, we have to listen to at school. The Muslim Council sponsored festival is aimed at "increasing community respect and appreciation of Muslims."
Read that again. This is the summary of the purpose of the Awareness festival. The arrogance of that statement is overwhelming! The Awareness Week is clearly not designed to encourage Muslims to appreciate the value of the Christian and secular aspects of British and European society. It is not about encouraging Muslims to respect the traditions and values of the long – established folk communities of the British Isles from the island of Lewis to the Cornish village of Listowel. It is not about tolerance of non-Islamic faiths. It is all about "increasing community respect and appreciation of Muslims".

all this multicultural learning is, in my oppinion, creating the problems, and making people angry. We study racism most weeks in school, in mot subjects. it is allways a one way street. We get told about Stephen Lawrence, often, and racism even gets into maths and sciences.
Just forget the Citizenship classes at school. (they arent there to teach us how to be upstanding good citizens, with good morals and pride) and let us get along as British, whatever colour we happen to be.

James Bradburn

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 06:31 PM

See what I mean Raedwulf. Facist dogma at its best :-(

I would never, ever say I told you so. It is so difficult for anyone who does not live this tripe on a daily basis to recognise it for what it is. Please realise that I am speaking from experience.

So, where is the offer of meeting us, James?

:D

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 06:40 PM

I hate to say this James, but I love other cultures, and have many black and asian friends may be true, but it's a really piss-poor way to open an argument! It should be obvious why.

And racism, as with any other -ism, doesn't mean that you consider someone better, it means that you treat them differently. I'm sexist - I treat women differently from the way I treat men. It doesn't mean I treat them worse, just differently.

I'm afraid that I am starting to drift towards DaveTG's point of view. Like it or not, you're starting to sound like a party political broadcast of something right of centre (not necessarily as far right as BNP)!

Whilst I'd agree that there is no such thing as positive discrimination (you always discriminate against someone...), it is something that is difficult to express without sounding like a BNP spokeperson, & you're not doing a good job of not!

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 06:44 PM

Oh, I always knew what you meant, Dave. See above. I still don't think you're right. I think James (my apologies for calling you Bradbury, Mr Bradburn!) is making a valid point, I just think he's doing it badly. And now I'm starting to sound patronising, so it's a good time to shut up!

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 06:57 PM

:D - I'm just off to bed, R. Certainly time for me to shut up! But Mr B (Bradbury or Bradburn - No Difference), if I trust my instincts, is just a wind up merchant. When we are still here discussing folk music he will still be here trying to figure out how to get white people to hate black people. Hopefuly, in this forum, he will never suceed. Unfortunatley in others he already has:-(

Peace and love (old hippy jargon...)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 06:58 PM

I'm not a racialist, a lot of my freinds are coloureds.

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 07:00 PM

Go on then jOhn, what colour are they...

:D

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 07:03 PM

I don't know, folks. I wish things were as clear cut as some people make out. Agreed, no indication that the crime was a racist one. Yet obviously there are those out there that will latch on to the events, and interpret them to fit their own racist message. Thus, racism exists, even if this crime was not driven by racist motives.

To simply say "it's not an issue" is not good enough. Neither is it a solution to try and address one side of the problem (as in "educating the British to understand Muslim cultures"). I am looking at events in the Netherlands, a country I love (I lived there for 7 years) and that I admired for its tolerance. Yet even they have got it wrong, clearly, as the recent murder of a film maker and threats against two politicians prove.

I have no answer, just my own attitude to offer. But I am worried that we are slipping down some path to racist hell, despite our best intentions, driven by a few individuals perhaps, but unable to find effective and acceptable ways to stop them.

And no - this would never be enough to make me vote BNP. I don't think they have the answer to anything. Just more hatred.

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Boab
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 07:10 PM

I will; not comment on the motives of the initiator of the thread, or on the BNP SPIN. [They may well be coming from the same source]
   I will say this, though; there is racism in my Country, Scotland. And I think that much covering up is being done. I know this from personal experience, as it is sadly evident in one branch of my family. I would suggest, though, that it is confined to a certain type of individual. You will very often find that "religious" bigotry and racism emanate from an identical source. A quick glance at the sickening behaviour at recent "old firm" games will give proof of that. Both traits were being displayed from the same moronic crapheads on the terracing. Nevertheless, while bigots are almost 100% racist besides, racism does exist in many people who aren't necessarily religious bigots. These twisted mental aberrations are by no means displayed by whits caucasians alone. Both occur in all shades of colour, and in all religions. The religious bigotry is a product of pure ignorance [and the weakness of the "our-god-alone"-besotted mind]. Racism comes from failure to integrate, which in turn makes the lack of the other requisite almost impossible to attain--education. I wish the powers-that-be had a solution . Like many another, I couldn't begin to suggest an easy way. Sad.

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 07:05 AM

No further news from Mr Bradburn?

No handshake yet?

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 07:32 AM

Boab is 100% correct.

Racism occurs when communities fail to integrate.

But how can integration be achieved when the two are so different in culture and aspirations?

Just another symptom of our "democratic" capitalist system.

Im afraid if we dont find another way to live which involves respect for our brothers sisters and fellow creatures, we are all heading for an Orwellian nightmare...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Chris Green
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 07:38 AM

Regarding the original post, the murder of a white kid by Asian kids is obviously utterly repellent. And yes, there's no getting away from the fact that racial tensions do exist in many parts of Britain, which is a growing problem that needs to be addressed. But anyone who seriously thinks that the BNP hold any sort of solution to this problem needs their head read.

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: GUEST,James Bradburn
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 08:14 AM

No indication that this was a racist murder. 0ner of the purpetrators have been convicted of race murder.

re-read my last post, if you think i am a racist
James

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Gervase
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 09:35 AM

Your argument might carry greater weight if you didn't rely on a website endorsing the BNP to back it up.
No-one denies that racism exists. What is at issue in the duscission that has evolved here would seem to be:
1) Is it 'hushed up' and
2) How can it be eradicated.
I think the answer to (1) is a clear No. The case you mention has been aired on network TV news in the UK, and not just in Scotland. One of the reasons the case has not been aired at length is because the trial of two of those involved is still underway, and the UK contempt laws quite rightly prohibit detailed discussion and background until the case is finished.
The answer to (2) is more difficult, but will almost certainly not be helped by the malicious meddling of the white supremacist movement and their attempts to inflame the situation.
I stand by my first comment - this is an attempt at trolling.

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 09:38 AM

Charlton Heston's wig looks pretty good though doesn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 09:48 AM

Still not coming out from under your stone Mr B?

Wonder why that is of you are not a racist...

:D

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 12:20 PM

Right , we all know the B N P are a racist organisation,but what has that to do with the problem we are trying to discuss.

This forum is full of highly intelligent people from a lot of different countries.
Is shouting "troll" "troll" really the best we can do.

I would like to see a bit of proper debate on what will become a major problem...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: GUEST,James Bradburn
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 01:24 PM

akenaton is correct. I started this topic asking for your thoughts. I think this topic needs confronting head on, without the risks of being called racist etc, as it is already a big problem, and the way it is dealt with at the moment, i think makes the problem work.

the BNP is a racist organization at the heart. however, many people are tempted by some of its ideas such as asylum etc, as many people are very sick and tired of the asylum mess.

I am not a racist. i dont like false asylum seekers coming here and claiming benefits. that doesnt make me a racist.
i cant blame the asylum seekers one bit. you would be a fool not to give it a go, if another country offered a lifestyle much better than your home country.
but, people are angry at the asylum seekers, rather than at the government, who make England such an appealing place to come to.

got to dash
James

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 03:26 PM

Is shouting "troll" "troll" really the best we can do.

Not at all, ake. I have offered, thrice now, to shake the hand of Mr B or at least have it shaken by proxy if another 'catter is nearer! I don't think it will happen but we could all be surprised. However, if it looks like a troll, sounds like a troll and smells like a troll, chances are that it is a troll:-)

As to 'a proper debate on what will become a major problem'.

Firstly, it won't become a major problem if we don't let it. It is not now and never has been. Racism against the majority simply does not exist. It is BNP dogma. Nothing more. The more people that begin to believe it is a 'major problem' the more support they get.

Secondly, crying racism is not a proper debate either. Nor is quoting from right wing web sites. Nor is hiding blatantly racist diatribe behind a veneer of civilised debate.

Finaly, and most worrying, Mr B thinks he is finding allies here at the Mudcat. I would be worried if I were you, ake (akenaton is correct...) Start to look into that pit and you may get dragged in.

Good luck and stay away from the edge;-)

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 03:37 PM

I learnt something new today. I looked up the BBC report of this trial (here). I never knew "racially-aggravated murder" was an offence. So it looks like the authorities reckon race was definitely an issue. One or two of us have a point to concede to James.

I confess, though, that I can't help feeling the really significant factor in this particular case is still gang respect & territory, rather than race, but that's by the by.

I also agree with Ake, but aside from repeating that I don't think James is a troll (& give him his due - he's not being an anonymous Guest!) as such, I'm afraid I don't have much to add to what's already been said. Racism is a problem, it feeds on ignorance, integration has to come from both sides, & I haven't got a magic wand to wave, or any ground-breaking solutions to suggest...

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 03:39 PM

Oh, wow, i'm being brainwashed...the BNP suddenly seem like a decent bunch of blokes trying to protect us from those evil immigrants...wow..it's all becoming so clear...

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 03:54 PM

Dave - Racism against the majority damn well does exist! You're starting to sound like my Sociology degree ex-colleague! Admittedly, most of the majority may not notice it most of the time, but there are still minorities judging majorities on the basis of race/skin colour. This is racism, just as much as the other way round. In some cases, violently & fatally so.

Also, whilst you're complaining that "the more people that begin to believe it is a 'major problem' the more support they get", this is true of both sides of the coin. I firmly believe that people that go looking for -isms find them. Racism, sexism, Nazism, whatever-ism, you go looking for it, you'll find it. All too often where it doesn't exist, which is one of the major reasons why the BNP make such utter idiots of themselves. Mountains out of molehills & all that... You are making the BNP sound like a 'major' problem'. Support for them is not widespread. I'm not suggesting that they should not be countered, but, equally, vehemence also draws attention to them!

Racism is always a major (i.e. important) problem. The question that needs to be answered is how widespread it is. My personal opinion is that there are a damn sight too many people (both left & right whinge... I mean, wingers!) who are too sensitive about it. But where it can be genuinely identified, it needs to be dealt with. How, I do not know!

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 04:01 PM

Oh come on BI...Everybody here has comdembed the BNP.
There is a big problem in glasgow.
A very good family friend of mine is Indian and lives in Glasgow, he tells me that the three major communities Pakistani, Indian and Scots have not integrated at all, and have little or no social contact.

I would like to hear some discussion on why this is, and how integration may become possible.
And Dave dont worry about me Im pretty sure- footed regarding racial matter...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 04:22 PM

"Oh come on BI...Everybody here has comdembed the BNP"

I was being sarcastic...i think we're all big enough recognise propaganda for what it is.

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Megan L
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 04:56 PM

In glasgow there was and probably still is a very active community relations councill promoting an integrated community.

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 05:01 PM

The way i see it is this-

Rascism exists to varying degrees in all sections of society and stems from a fear of other cultures, which stems from an ignorance of these cultures, which stems from lack of integration...which stems from rascism. It's a vicious circle. How to break the circle? A concerted effort from all parties to inform and educate, and most importantly frank, honest, open discussion. By stifling this, political correctness has encouraged that which it hoped to eradicate. There are no quick, easy solutions.

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 05:02 PM

I just realised i spelled racism wrong all the way through my last post..oopsies...:0)

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 08:05 PM

give him his due - he's not being an anonymous Guest!

Oh yes he is. How many times do I have to offer to meet the bloke before we realise he is just that - an anonymous guest. Just because he calls himslef James Bradburn doesn't make him James Bradburn! For the 5th (or 6th) and final time. Come on James! Make yourself known. Let us know where you are and which folk club you go to. Let us know that someone can meet you in real life and let the rest of the 'cat know if you are a beligerent racist or simply worried that the blacks may take over...;-)

Raedwulf. If this guy does not respond this time will you admit that he is just out to incite hatred? In advance I admit that you are right - Racism against the majority does exist. It just doesn't matter! Because we are in the majority we can just shrug it off and get on with our lives. Those in the minority may not have that luxury.

I was once called a 'white nigger' by a crowd of young lads in Antigua. In the safety of the white resort it didn't seem to matter but while I was out there jogging through their townships it was pretty scary!

Cheers

DtG
(Of to bed now - 1am in the UK. CU Soon:-) )

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: dianavan
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 11:09 PM

Racisim and stereotyping exists, whether you're white, black or all the shades between. It is only possible to discriminate on the basis of race, however, if you are in the more powerful, dominant group.

d

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: GUEST,James The Guest
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 03:34 AM

"Dave the Gnome," dont be pathetic. Just because i dont want to meet you, therefore that PROVES that i am racist does it?
If i meet you, then i am not a racist? So racism means whether a guest poster choses to meet Dave the Gnome or not. il inform the Oxford Dictionary right away!

Do people think that too much of political correctness is making relations between ethnic groups worse?

i want this country to work. A perfect situation for me is that everyone can just get on with each other and be British, no matter what colour skin then have etc. i found it interesting that one of my Sikh friends had an arguement with someone, insisting that he was British, and he is proud to be british.

Do you think that the allegiance things that immigrants have to do in America, make people have more pride in living in America, as they feel they have been accepted and are less likely to feel like a minority?

The women on the radio complaining that Rememberance Day should stop because it may offend ethnic minorities. I think this PC stuff is very detrimental, as first people get angry at the ethnic minorities (but they dont care what we celebrate.)
Also it keeps pointing out about ethnic minorities and how delicate they are. Just let us all get on with it as British Citizens.
Also it shows that some people dont mind offending british people. Stopping Rememberance Day so not to offend ethnic minorities, but not caring about offending british people.

all the best
James

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 04:43 AM

Not at all, James. Not wanting to meet anyone does not prove you are a racist. Meeing someone in real life will prove you are not spineless and just stirring things up though. Come to my folk club if you don't want to give your whereabouts away. The White Lion, Swinton, Manchester, every Monday.

I don't want you to prove anything - just show us you are not anonymous and can have a proper discussion with people. I will even buy you a pint.

Now how can you refuse that offer?

Cheers

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 01:13 PM

There is no way in hell i'd pledge allegiance to Britian, or indeed anywhere...and i was born here...

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: GUEST,James
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 03:27 PM

Dave the Gnome,
I am not here to stir things up, although i knew topics like this allways start good discussions on this forum, as there are folkies from both ends of the political spectrum.
If i am ever up Manchester way, i will try and get along to your folk club.
The reason i chose to remain as a guest, is that as soon as i mention resenting the asylum mess, positive discrimination etc (not the asylum seekers themselves, i dont blame them for coming here!) etc, someone allways shouts "RACIST, and its not a good brush to be tarred with.

Your oppinions.........
James

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: dianavan
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 03:41 PM

Guest, James -

It would be ideal if immigrants can become British while maintaining their ethnic identity (including their language). That means that all of the different cultural groups respect the holidays and traditions of the others.

The idea of abolishing Remembrance Day because it might be offensive to certain minorities is absurd.

It is easy to tar just about anyone with the "racist brush" because most of us do have an ethnocentric way of looking at things and it takes alot of awareness to be careful not to offend. On the other hand, I have found that those that are quick to pull the "race card" are often racist themselves. Its an easy way to put people down and end discussion.

d

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 03:50 PM

Who could possibly be offended by Remembrance Day? Am i missing something here?

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: greg stephens
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 04:15 PM

This james Bradburn(who seems to be implying he is still at school, in some secret and unspecified part of this glorious country of ours. But he ddoes seem to have a lot in common with another similar character calling himself "Josh" who was around a while back, spouting the same old stuff. So, James,tell us where your school is , and something of your musical preferences. Most of us here are quite old, so we will be sympathetic if you political opinios are a little naive, if you are relly still at school. What exams have you taken recently?

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 08:00 PM

No, James, I realise now you are not here to stir things up. I should have known that comments like for example, our cities Sikh community laid a wreath at the Rememberence Day Service show that you are fully integrated. Who knows, the black people will be doing all sorts of things that us real humans do in a few years...

I know that you will not show yourself. After all it is a known fact that us pinko left wing communists will beat the shit out of you poor misunderstood BNP aggitators while the right wing are well known for their love of peace and tollerance;-)

Now then will anyone who was saying that James is just wanting to promote healthy discussion please stand up and be counted...

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 08:41 PM

The Pakistani ,who was 20yrs old was found guilty yesterday of "racially aggravated murder".
First conviction for this crime in Scotland.
He acted with three others in the abduction and murder. The three have still to be arrested as far as I know.

Im old enough to remember Enoch Powells "rivers of blood" speech, And how it virtually ended his political career.
Maybe he was more far seeing than most of us realised at the time.
I was a member of the Young Communists at that time and we spent a lot of energy campaigning against what we percieved as blatant racism.

Looking back now I can see Powell was sincere in what he said, and had the courage to sacrifice his career for his beliefs.
How many of todays politician would do that?

I still dont agree with what Powell said, but given how the different ethnic communities in Britain are just not integrating, I cant argue with his foresight.

Religious and cultural ideologies are the biggest problem,a problem which is compounded by religious teaching in schools and the new labour abomination "faith schools"

Religion should be kept out of education all together, and faith schools banned forthwith.
It is we, the older generation ,who instill racism and bigotry in our children....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 04:32 AM

Akenaton: I really can't let you get away with describing"faith schools" as a "new labour abomination". Churches have been running educational establishments since the year dot throughout Britain, with obvious results, good and bad,(How are religious rivalries in Glasgow these days?). Whether they are on balance a positive or negative force could be discussed, but to suggest they are a new idea is total rubbish, and you know it.

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 12:10 PM

Sorry Greg.. What I meant was that "faith schools " were being promoted by Blair and new labour.

Seems Blair like Bush has his own personal agenda,regarding religion,whether it is good for us or not .

I repeat, religion and politics should be kept apart.

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 01:31 PM

I agree there...secularity of state, and secularity of education.

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 05:30 PM

Dunno what to say any more really. This thread was started purely with the intention of winding people up against the asian community. Hopefully it hasn't suceeded here. I should have just ignored it but didn't:-(

James will never show himself in public because he does not exist. He is the unaccepatble face of 'upmarket' racism. At best he can win a few converts from the people stupid enough to listen.

I have, unfortunately, fell into the trap of giving him a much longer platform than he deserves. For me it ends now. I will not give his racist nonsense any more house room.

James and whoever is pulling your strings. You will never win. Most people are too sensible. Those who are not are not worth winning over.

Just one more thing before I go. Anyone care to lay odds on Mr B turning up at Swinton?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: GUEST,James Bradburn
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 02:50 AM

Dave the gnome. how come everybody else can add their views, yet you have to go on about wanting to meet me, laying odds on it, screaming racist, calling me josh, and other rantings.
"I know that you will not show yourself. After all it is a known fact that us pinko left wing communists will beat the shit out of you poor misunderstood BNP aggitators while the right wing are well known for their love of peace and tollerance;-)"
I reckon that communism has murdered more people than facism. could be wrong, but Stalin, killed 3 times as many people as Hitler.
i dont hate communists either. i hope that we all have the same end goal, just different ways of getting there. everybody surely wants a world that works?

James Bradburn

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 02:54 AM

Don't pay attention to trolls.............

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: dianavan
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 03:07 AM

Bradburn says, "If this victim was black, we would never hear the last of it.

Notice how the inquiry has been rejected, as it is not "politically correct"

Bradburn is worse than a racist pig. He also hates anyone who is not racist.

You're right - NO MORE POSTS

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: GUEST,Terry K
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 07:36 AM

To me the main problem seems to be that everyone gets carried away with what is racism and what is not, and simply end up slagging each other off so that the real issue does not get discussed at all.

The fact that various ethnic groups do not get on with the indigent population, or with each other, has nothing to do with whether someone or other is a racist or not a racist. It has nothing to do with ideology at all. It will not be solved by all the enlightened people agreeing not to be racist. It will not be solved by Governments trying to legislate against the problems.

The problems have always existed, and always will, unless someone takes a look at what the fundamental problem really is. If everyone keeps hiding behind this taunt of "racist" then nothing will ever get done. It is quite easy for anyone to accuse someone of being racist. Where does that get us? Absolutely nowhere.

Akenaton seems to be lone voice positively attempting to look at solutions instead of the usual dreary rhetoric that pervades these threads, each trying to outdo each other in the "I'm SO not a racist" stakes.

So what is the fundamental problem? What are the solutions? I have no idea, but I do know that throughout history, and all over the world, people "of difference" have squabbled with each other, they continue to do so, and I believe will continue to do so forever.

All I know is that refusing to consider the points that someone makes, whatever their motivation, by crying "racist" is not helpful.

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: GUEST,James Bradburn
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 03:33 PM

Terry K, do you think that we can ever totally live in harmony, different ethnic groups, or do you think it will allways be a fine line, with all groups having to be careful?

Why do some ethic groups integrate better into the british way of life. Do you think that for example, banning santa at the birmigham bullring, incase it may offend ethnic minorities, will be detrimental to integration, as we are in britian now, and unless the message gets across that ethnic groups have to respect our festivals, its not going to work?

"Bradburn is worse than a racist pig. He also hates anyone who is not racist."
dianavan, shut up about the racist thing. At no point have i said that i believe that one race is better than another, i am not racist, end of story.

Is racism allways going to occur, is it a natural thing. someone who lives in manchester probably believes that their football team is better than Liverpool, and visa versa. pride in your own, and wanting your own to survive over others in natural. one species of animal only helps its own really. We are programmed to want the continuation of our species. That is why soldiers in WW1 found it very difficult, to kill (only 2% shot to kill the enemy,) this is of course, infantry, rather than machine gunners and mortars, air strikes etc.
A bear is going to want to help its own species over a koala, that is only natural. Can racism ever be removed totally?

all the best
James

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Megan L
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 03:36 PM

I wish you'd all shut up and leave my dambed city alone.

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 04:39 PM

Megan.... does your city of today bear any resemblance to my Glasgow of the 50s and 60s?
On the surface its changed completely, but dig deeper and the shameful sectarianism which stained the souls of its inhabitants, has just been replaced by ethnic tensions even more disturbing.
When the people of Glasgow were made redundant by the Capitalist machine, they lost more than their jobs...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 04:45 PM

James-humans are the same species, you fucking idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 07:57 PM

Oh Well - Unless I've lost count this is the hundredth

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 03:18 AM

Sir John, even saying that humans are the same species isnt definately correct.
Many biologists believe that the tendency to view races as a social construct, or as "not biologically significant," is incorrect, and is influenced not by science but by racial politics and political correctness. They claim that researchers on racial differences are often attacked as racists, even if said researchers have liberal sociopolitical views and claim to be against racism.

We are not a monotypic species anyway. whatever happens, there are sub species. scientists such as (google search for names!) Ralph L. Holloway, Professor of Anthropology, Columbia University; Arthur Jensen, University of California-Berkeley; Joseph Carroll, University of Missouri-St. Louis; and Thomas J. Bouchard, Jr., Prof. of Psychology, University of Minnesota.
These guys have pointed out that racial differences in humans exceed the differences that separate subspecies or even species in such other primates as gorillas and chimpanzees.

Races are very different. Differnet coloured skin, genetics, make up, body and muscle types, vulerabilities to illnesses etc.
To point that out, would land you in hot water.

James

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 03:19 AM

Well caught Leadfingers!

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Boab
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 04:56 AM

---"at no point have I said that I believe that one race is better than another---"

---"We are not a monotypic species---whatever happens there are sub-species----"
Eh???

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: GUEST,James Bradburn
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 12:34 PM

Boab, as our races are different, we can sensibly be divided into biologically (sp?) significant sub catagories. Hence, we are a polytypic species, and the differences between races are due to genetic transmission, and not just random, such as differences in height, eye colour within a race, which is just due to the way an embryo forms.

"The origin of Species", by Darwin, is a fascinating read on the subject

James

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Terry K
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 02:14 PM

To answer your question, James, the points I make are not necessarily about different ethnic groups or races, but about "people of difference".

History shows us that differing groups of people cannot co-exist peacefully, whether we are talking about tribes in Africa warring against each other, Yorkshire versus Lancashire, France versus - er -just about everyone, or whatsoever. Even if people are all the same race, nationality, social class etc, they will still find something to fight about - look at Northern Ireland.

My belief, for what it's worth, is that people are naturally herdlike as long as they are comfortable with the herd, but become very paranoid when outsiders or strangers present themselves. Sometimes it may even be based on factual experience, for example, many villagers experience of "travellers" has generally not been good, so they quite naturally generalise. It may not be right, but it is what happens. More often I think it is not based on factual experience, rather just an irrational fear of the unknown.

I recall time spent in Australia in the 60s when it must not have been great to be Greek or Italian, but these people seem to be generally well assimilated now, so the attention has turned to other groups. Even the English were seen as threatening at one time because so many of the migrants went there with the wrong attitude. But it didn't and shouldn't stop people wanting to go live somewhere else, if that is what they want to do.

Unsurprisingly, I blame Governments (all of 'em) for refusing to discuss/consider the issues before they create pockets of society with predictable social problems that they don't have to live with themselves, then blame people for not being able to get along.

cheers, Terry

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: GUEST,James Bradburn
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 05:30 PM

Terry, i agree whole totally with all of the points you have said there, you seem to be able to put things across better than myself.
I think it is entirely due to governments and the media way of covering up, refusing to be honest and open about subjects, that causes problems and bitterness in the first place.

James

Subject: Gangs
From: GUEST,OZzz
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 05:25 PM

Im an asian myself, i dont no where these stories are coming from, meaning where their hapning in britain but here in london its all the same, asian gang, black gang, white gang, turkish whatever it aint really a racial thing, its just the gang thing init, boys wanna act like rude boys and shit, they dont want no man to look at them step in their way barge them, tryna get some sort of rep, trust me it aint that much of racial hatred just some bullshit gang shit. yeah safe if alot of asians got racially abused they would get some next nutty pakis to sort it out for them, thas how it is, i aint racist or anything i get along with everyone, u jus have to fuck all the gangs and racial violence and enjoy your life, white black asian who gives a fuck, if you all got along you would have been loving your life, no trouble nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: GUEST,JB
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 06:29 PM

Your talking about racial issues all over on this thread. Racial issues exist within every race, but I believe its a minority in each section that is racist. How do you plan to eradicate peoples mindset?

You Can't. You can't tell someone to do this and that can you, people do what they want to do and people think what they want to think, nobody can stop them. The only thing to do is to segregate racists from non racists, take the good away from the bad keep them seperate, its like if you asked me to run Britain, I would have searched streets day and night to find criminals and have them locked up, No bollocks about 5 years 10 years, straight up jail, you wanna live in Britain and you wanna make it work, get people to act upon it, the government, tony blair, all political debates, their time wasting, to me its like 99.9 % talk and .1 percent action. Increasing police officers is not going to help and it never will, they havnt that many people to do such a job, cameras all that bollocks dont work, people have to work with each other, regardless of who you are and where your from, you see something happen, all the citizens of britain unite and fight it off. I dont believe all peoople are racist, they are being racist from a particular reason like for example, a black person is hated for their actions or asian person is hated for coming in the country and taking over jobs or whatever. Its hard living in a diverse society where theres alot of confusion, racial tension and such.

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 05:58 AM

Them bloody darkies, come round here nicking our jobs!
its a disgrace!

and as for them bloddy asylum seekers?
they get loads of money,there all riving around in flash cars, amnd theyve ALL got mobile phones!

plus i heard some wehere [think it was in The Dialy Mail] that all them asylum seekers are getting brand new houses built for them, probly worth about a million pound a house,and i also heard [from man in pub], that they all going to get butlers, chauffers and maids as well, and they'll be living on really posh food like fried chicken and pizzas etc while white english folk are starving to death!
this is true, i know this, as man in pub told me.

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 02:19 PM

Your right Sir John,it is in the Daily Mail.I agree with what you say,send them back to their own countries and see if they get a million pound house built for them there.
Yes,I am a racist.

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 06 Feb 05 - 07:25 PM

Guest OZzzz may or or may not be genuine. But he only repeats the point I made a long time ago. It's not race that's important, it's too generic. It's tribe, clan, those close to you, those that you know & can relate to. "Faith, Family, Folk", everything else tends to come a long way behind...

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 07 Feb 05 - 07:24 PM

the article cited doesn't say anything about 'eyes gouged out'

Subject: RE: BS: I heard nothing of this?!?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 07 Feb 05 - 07:26 PM

agree send EVERYBODY HOME!

where will i b sent to???