BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 11:33 AM

Not that this really answers the question, but you can choose from the overwhelming number of suggestions and further linked references on this page:
http://tsunamihelp.blogspot.com/

I personally have distrust, without hard evidence to justify it, of the Red Cross administrative fees and the incompetence of the U.S. Federal Disaster Relief agencies. (It's based on purely anecdotal tales involving localized actions in California and Florida. Both criticisms/concerns are based therefore only on guilt by association.) The legitimacy of those concerns are not important given the immediacy of this situation.

I ended up choosing the Salvation Army, whom I trust, again with no hard evidence to justify it, and Doctors Without Borders. But you can readily find very localized entities in this internet age, that will hopefully receive cash exactly where it is needed. (But if you go too local, then maybe the cash won't be very useful if what is needed can't be bought.) No easy choices but I think you have to take a quick stab and hope for the best.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Once Famous
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 11:48 AM

Guest, heric

yes, I have many of the so called "Americans" here pegged.

They are some pretty shitty ones at that. They belong to that worthless society called "Hand wringers and social commies of America." I forgive them most of the time for just being some of American society's misfits and square pegs.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 11:58 AM

Stop! This thread will be about earthquake and related tsunami bring death.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Peace
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 12:01 PM

MBS Lynne,

"I feel quite frustrated at not being able to do more than donate an incredibly small amount of money."

One of the things I came to realize when I first became a firefighter is that soaking the axe head in a pail of water with some antifreeze in it may help save a life or a structure, or that checking the air pressure of the truck tires could be the difference between someone living or not. What the heck does that mean? It means that there are NO unimportant tasks in a system that is dedicated to helping others.

I had been 'fighting' fires for over a year before I ever got to use the hose. And it was two years before I entered a burning structure wearing breathing apparatus [BA]. The first big structure fire (a large house with an attached garage and attached workshop) I was at found me in charge of a hydrant--a job given to rookies because 1) it has to be done and 2) there is less chance of screwing up badly and getting someone else injured or killed. Here is the genesis of a structure-fire call to a volunteer department (although details may vary according to circumstance).

Someone notices smoke or flame coming from a house

That someone calls 911 (999 in England)

The 911 dispatch takes the info and alerts the appropriate fire department by sending a radiowave page that triggers the beeping device in firefighters' pagers

The firefighters go to the hall where the first FF in alerts command that the hall is manned

Command has gone directly to the scene and the FF dress in bunker gear while command sizes up the scene

The dressed FFs go to the equipment floor where they are assigned to various trucks. Our hall has six trucks. Because we handle town calls and county calls, the fire location and fire 'size' will dictate which trucks respond

The FF who was first in will assign FFs to the trucks that will roll. On this hypothetical fire we require a pumper, an aerial ladder truck and a rescue truck. The pumper will be first out. The driver has to be a pump operator, and the four FFs who will travel in that truck have to be BA certified. It rolls and receives direction en route (from the command vehicle at the scene) as to where to stage and what they're facing

Regardless of the fire size, most trucks only carry between 500 and a 1000 gallons of water, and that can be sprayed away in less than about four minutes. If the fire requires a massive amount of water 'right now', someone will have to hook to a hydrant to ensure a continuous supply to the truck. If that isn't done, after four minutes ya got a team of guys who have no water. If they're inside, they have no water protection or way to control the burn

The second truck in is the aerial ladder truck. It will hook to a hydrant and hook to the first pumper to provide water for the first pumper and water for itself Most areial ladders trucks carry very little water with them

The third truck in will carry FFs who will be assigned duties when they arrive on scene

Within twelve minutes (tops) it has gone from someone seeing smoke to having 12-16 FFs on scene and starting to deal with the fire. There isn't a single step there that can be cut out. There is no unimportant job. The axe head in the water with the antifreeze? The guy who did that expanded the wood in the axe head so that when it was used to gain access to the house, the head--which had become loose because the wood had shrunk was expanded by the soaking, and the guys could get into the structure. The guy who established water supply at the hydrant? He made sure his buddies inside had protection from the flame and water to begin the extinguishment. The scene commander? He determined whether or not the house was occupied and if the shop attached to the house contained things that go boom. The guy who ensured all the radios were working and had fully charged batteries has also ensured that the guys inside have a secure link/contact with their fellows on the outside. It's important to be able to tell them that the structue is in danger of collapse and they should get out, now.

This scenario isn't all that hypothetical. And something else that isn't hypothetical is this: Which event in the chain of things would you cancel (have not happen)? The call to 911? The radio page? The hydrant hook up? The axe head maintenance?

The fire axe cost $30. The pail to soak it in cost $3. The antifreeze cost $2. The truck cost $85,000. The training for each FF cost $10,000. The radio batteries cost $40. The call to 911 cost $.15 and the gas to get the pumper to the fire cost $1. While you consider which to leave out because it's 'an incredibly small amount of money', I will suggest that there is no such thing. That you have done what you can do is the measure of your contribution and your 'goodness'. That you have done what you can do is the measure of your humanity. That you have done what you can do.

BM

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 12:04 PM

CNN now reporting over 80,000 people dead. 1/3 children. 1/3 children being that most of these places population is 1/3 children. The children had the least chance of hanging on to something or running away fast enough.
An aftershock was just reported measuring .6.
This is a tradgedy and heartbreaking to see all of the bodies that can't even be identified because most of them only wore swimsuits and now they are bloating to unrecoginized features.
My question is, why don't these people and the relief teams get away from all the devestation. Go inland a mile. Get the healthy people that are walking around all of this, away from it, where they can?
Seems to me it would help a little on the spread of disease. They say even chicken poxs are breaking out. That's strange, but do you hear what I'm saying?

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Once Famous
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 12:06 PM

Guest, heric

this thread is already about complainers who are pointing fingers and blaming Americans about the earthquake, related tsunami bring death.

Everyone has already pointed out how tragic it is. This thread took on it's accusatory tone very early on.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST,Mrr at work
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 12:22 PM

So, who's going to rewrite Mighty Day into Tagalog? Or even into English? Time for a song... too early for jokes, I guess.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 12:30 PM

"In a sign of the brutal disconnect between investors and the poor who suffered the tragedy, however, Indonesian and Indian stock markets were hitting record highs on perceived economic good times."

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Peace
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 12:42 PM

Approximately one and a third percent of the world's population just died in this event. The final toll will be above two percent, IMO. If some of you behaved this way at a funeral you would be trounced. And, you would deserve to be.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: ard mhacha
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 12:52 PM

Who is the prize prick that blanked out part of my message, this was a most relevant point regarding this tragedy.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: ard mhacha
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 12:56 PM

I take back my last message as I see the obstruction may have been due to my own PC, apologies.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 12:58 PM

heric, I always donate to Medecins Sans Frontieres/Doctors Without Borders first when I make international disaster donations. They are already in there, on the ground, in all the worst hit countries.

Their organization is very tight, very quick first responder teams on all the continents who go out to quickly assess where the needs are greatest and will be of greatest benefit on the ground. Then usually within 24-48 hours, they start sending in their volunteers who will stay in the region for 3-9 months, depending upon the need. They are very good at what they do, and they don't soak up a lot of donation money in administrative costs because they are very well organized to mobilize immediately and with great effectiveness. They always have a separate administrative team on the ground to coordinate goods and services, so the field teams don't have to do that part of the work on the ground in the nearest big city to coordinate things coming in and things going to the field.

A friend of my daughter's mom is a doctor who has volunteered for a couple of tours with them in the last ten years, and since we heard straight from the horse's mouth about their organization, we've been donating to them ever since.

I also always look for organizations that can set up camps for the displaced quickly and efficiently, in the area of the disaster, if possible. Catholic Relief Services is pretty good at this if I decide to go locally.

I won't donate to Red Cross/Red Crescent anymore because of the negative things I've heard from people in the disaster relief business about them. And then there was the whole 9/11 debacle. And there are only a handful of UN organizations I will donate to anymore either because of this sort of thing. I do still donate to the UN Population Fund, as that money goes directly pregnant & nursing women, who are often the first to be overlooked in disasters. But I'm not too keen on how much money it takes the UN orgs to administer relief. It is a massive bureaucracy, burdened by way too much inefficiency. Unfortunately, they are sometimes the only resort, not just the last one.

As to money, I can rarely afford more than $10.00 to give to a couple of charities. But I also know that 1,000 people donating $10 each equals $10,000 pretty quickly, and 10,000 people donating $10 each equals $100,000.

That adds up to some serious change in no time at all. So as our mighty firefighter above says, don't ever think your small money donation is insignificant. It never is, because it all adds up to real help. Truly.

Another bit of info people interested in donating to international relief efforts now and later might like to know about is the Reuters AlertNet website. It is a great website, that is jam packed with concise, up to the minute information on disaster relief around the world. For instance, right now you are two clicks away from a comprehensive list of disaster relief aid by country if you wish, or by charitable organization if you wish. It's an excellent resource to use to find a charity worthy of your support.

One final thing I'd like to say about disaster relief. I only support organizations that stay in the field long enough to finish the job, and who don't rob from the suffering Peters in Sudan to pay short term for the suffering Pauls in Sri Lanka. What I mean is, too many charitable organizations shift too many resources away from the areas like Sudan or Nigeria or Somalia or Turkey or Afghanistan where the ongoing relief needs are the most crucial to break the cycle of dependency upon foreign aid. That isn't responsible or effective crisis or relief management. So that is another thing I investigate about charities before I donate.

Once you've done your homework, you can donate worry free, knowing your dollars will get the best bang for the buck on the relief front. That is very important to me, because I know that millions and billions of dollars get wasted over the years that don't need to get wasted, by inefficiency, bureaucratic in-fighting, and "values" politics (a lot of religious relief organizations are guilty of the values politics thing in the international relief game) and way too much aid from them comes with "values" strings attached. Hence, I always look very carefully at any religious organizations when I donate.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: ard mhacha
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 01:04 PM

I have just seen on Irish TV News that the response for aid to the various charities has been overwhelming, it is expected that the £3.00 per head of the population given to Band Aid will be surpassed this time, great news.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Peace
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 01:05 PM

"So as our mighty firefighter above says"

Eat dirt.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 01:11 PM

Doctors without borders...
Thank you for that.

I know many may think that prior warning is a moot issue but it follows the plot of the movie Jaws with striking similarity.

Source: Expressen (Swedish online newspaper)
Date: Dec. 28
Translated by: CLiss
www.expressen.se/expresse...sp?a=22...

"Tsunami warning was stopped"

Just minutes after the earthquake in the Indian Ocean on Sunday morning, Thailand's foremost meterological experts were sitting together in a crisis meeting. But they decided not to warn about the tsunami "out of courtesy to the tourist industry", write the Thailand daily newspaper The Nation.

The experts got the news around 8:00 am on Sunday morning local time. An hour later, the first massive wave struck. But the experts started to discuss the economic impacts when they were discussing if a tsunami warning should be made. The main argument against such a warning was that there have not been any floods in 300 years. Also, the experts believed the Indonesian island Sumatra would be a "cushion" for the southern coast of Thailand. The experts also had bad information; they thought the tremor was 8.1. A similar earthquake occurred in the same area in 2002 with no flooding at all.


We finally decided not to do anything because the tourist season was in full swing. The hotels were 100% booked full. What if we issued a warning, which would have led to an evacuation, and nothing had happened. What would be the outcome? The tourist industry would be immediately hurt. Our department would not be able to endure a lawsuit...

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 01:17 PM

Why? I was being genuine and serious. Your post was an excellent example of why small donations matter, and I was supporting you making that point.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Peace
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 01:19 PM

Sorry GUEST. I took it the wrong way. Please accept my apology.

Bad few weeks here. I shouldn't have snapped at you. New Year's resolution in the making.

Sincerely,

Bruce

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: belter
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 02:56 PM

The gent who says 1 1/3% of world percent just died is a little off. The number is more like 1 1/3 thousanth of a percent. When talking about world population, thats still a very scary number.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Peace
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 02:59 PM

Right, belter. Maybe I should learn how to read the accessories calculator which showed the decimal places at the end of the threes. Sorry all.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Peace
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 03:02 PM

1.33333333333333333333333333e-5

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 03:28 PM

Its chilling how the human mind tries to put in numbers what we can not truely envision. I have on more than one occasion imagined how any media presentation would portray a holocaust that may number in the billions.

These Christmas day earthquakes for the last 2 years comes at a time when the American President is on vacation and we are warmed in our hearts and hearths with holiday spirit.

I am not indicting anyone regarding this tradgedy of biblical proportions. I am stunned however at the US government gesture of $35 million in relief. We spend somewhat less than a billion dollars a day in Iraq war expenses.

The war for the hearts and minds of the Muslim world is ours (USA) to win or lose.
I repeat

The war for the hearts and minds of the Muslim world is ours (USA) to win or lose with the US response to this tradgedy.

What does $35 million buy? It buys only 20% of the bonus for a CEO.
It buys a fancy new yacht or several private Gulf Stream private jets.
Private US donations will certainly dwarf 35 million many times over but for Bush advisors to put George on TV and declare the amgic number 35mil is representative of the true nature of the people in charge of the project for the new american century.

If this opinion simply strikes some people here as wholesale American bashing I can not change thier minds. I only hope the administration will change my mind with a proper response.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: robomatic
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 03:30 PM

Wolfgang, thanks for the info.

We have an epochal situation here. If you'll forgive me dragging a phrase from the Presidential debates, we've got a true 'global test'. An international problem that calls for international help and cooperation.

I think there is already a lot of compassion. This is an unforeseen cataclysm and the victims are truly victims. If such a wave hit the East coast of the US I think all that wonderful infrastructure which insulates us from the raw natural world would've been swept away or rendered useless, and we would look no different from the folks we are seeing thanks to the immediacy of satellite transmission. And I think most of us know that.

So let's see if the UN is good for anything. Let's see if these growing South East Asian economic powerhouses are generating their own recuperative capabilities (Signs are they are).

Guest, I'd be able to take you a bit more seriously if you took on a name, even if only a temporary one. I distrust the un-named self-righteous who like to dump facts which might or might not be complete and figures which might or not be accurate. You seem to have a chip on your shoulder and I'm not interested in feeding your ego (although I just have by bringing up the subject of 'you'). Anyhow, I know people who were in the Alaskan quake and I don't know people who were in other quakes (except some minor ones I've been in). You want to remain not only anonymous but unidentifiable, I suggest you start a whole thread for yourself, called "No matter what happens, let's dump on someone and feel smug". I promise I'll show up and make you feel self-important, but no more in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Once Famous
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 03:42 PM

Oh, donuel please spare us.

Al quaida could give a shit.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 04:32 PM

Couldn't agree more, Donuel. Considering the number of Muslims in the area hit by the quake and tsunamis, it would certainly behoove the US & Britain particularly, to be a bit more forthcoming with cash AND compassion, or we'll have signed our own death warrants in Asia as well as the Middle East.

14% of India's population is Muslim. 100% of the population of the Maldives is Muslim. Only 7% of Sri Lankans are Muslim, but a whopping 88% of Indonesia, the country hardest hit, are Muslim, along with 60% of Malaysians.

And the whole Muslim world is certainly watching the US & Britain right now, and the EU & UN to a lesser extent.

One need only look at the levels of aid the international relief community has poured into Iraq in the last year and half to see just how skewed relief efforts have been in the imperial Shrub II era.

Gerhard Schroeder is wisely advocating for debt relief for the hardest hit countries like Indonesia, just as it was given to Iraq, after the US and Britain strong armed their allies into it earlier this year. Billions of dollars in international & US aid money has been dumped down the bottomless pit that is Iraq in the past year and half, and all the US can scrounge together for the entire south Asian region is a measly $35 million bucks.

Read the overview about the politics of disaster relief aid in the other thread, match it up with the news that is already out there (like Schroeder's suggestion that some debt relief be given to the region, comments by UN officials about the niggardly response from the world's wealthiest nations, etc) and it all begins to add up to our US government's intentions to do as little as it possibly can to extend aid, comfort and assistance to the region, much less our compasssion.

Why the very idea of the US being a compassionate nation has become a cruel and bitter joke around the world, and the predicatably despicable Bush administration response is the exact reason why more and more people around the world view the US government and it's "aid and development" agencies and arms with such contempt.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Once Famous
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 04:42 PM

Oh, Guest, you bore me with your political anti-american agenda.

what do you have? A masters degree in bullshit?

The latest news is that India is turning down all relief.

OK, fine. We offered.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 05:00 PM

BTW, it is easy to detect Bush's motives for forming his little "coalition" for sending aid to the region. He is setting up a dynamic to compete with both the UN and EU efforts, so he can turn around and condemn both institutions in the morning. One need only look at who his "partners" are in this endeavor to see through this sham at the expense of the Asian people desperating awaiting aid and assistance.

So who does Bush send in? US troops, US military hardware, US military advisors. That will certainly reassure the Indonesian Muslims, I'm sure. Or did everyone forget that Indonesia is a hotbed of radical Muslim activity and on Shrub's "war on terrorism" hit list. This disaster provides the perfect opportunity for Bush to peacefully invade yet another Muslim nation.

And this international coalition Bushie Boy is gonna head up, of India, Japan, Australia, and US, is more than a bit suspicious, especially in the wake of the stock market news in India when all this was being announced.

And according the US Agency for International Development, we have now raised a whopping $110 million worldwide to deal with this crisis.

In fact, this new American coalition of the Asian willing is as genuine and sincere as Martin Gibson's claims of being compassionate about the Asian victims he and the Bush administration immediately wrote off in the wake of the catastrophe.

Don't get me wrong, the survivors will be damn glad to see the US warships that have the ability to produce up to 90,000 gallons of water a day. But we also know it will only be a tiny drop in a huge bucket of need for those people, and when it's all over, we'll still have US troops in Indonesia to wage our war on the Muslims there too.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Once Famous
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 05:17 PM

And what are you doing about it, Guest?

Holding up a brown finger in the air hoping someone will smell it and give you joy?

You need a padded room.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 05:55 PM

I agree with you Don H. that $35m is a mere pittance and I will be greatly disappointed if the US government does not help to a far greater extent than that number. I think and hope that that is a preliminary hard cash number.

I can't agree for a second that aid to any of the nations should factor in Al Qaida or Muslim ethnic sentiments. If you do go down that (self-interest) path, look where you end up: Right at that last GUEST post which claims that US government giving aid in significant amounts can only be a conniving attempt upstage the U.N. Good heavens. I enjoy being naïve and will work at staying that way.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 06:12 PM

" I enjoy being naïve and will work at staying that way. "

Which is why we have the Bush and Blair administration continuing in power too. If you would rather remain naive in spite of the evidence, you are part of the problem, not the solution.

Anyone who thinks disaster relief and humanitarian aid from the wealthy nations is all about good intentions is seriously deluded.

The motives of the Bush administration and the chains attached to their aid are so far from noble and on the up and up, they are a whole universe away from your head in the sand, heric.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: robomatic
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 06:28 PM

They are broadcasting 80,000 deaths and the counting is not over. As the delivery of disaster aid unfolds, the struggle will be to prevent disease from doubling the initial casualties. The latest I heard was that supplies are building up at the airports, but the infrastructure (roads to deliver the supplies, electricity to power water treatment pumps and refrigeration units) is going to be the challenge. The tsunami knocked a railroad train to hell and gone.

Rebuilding infrastructure is something the US is historically quite good at. Let's get cracking.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 06:36 PM

>>Bush administration and the chains attached to their aid are so far from noble and on the up and up<<<

I can grasp that GUEST. But the hard part is that you will lambaste them if they give too much, and you will lambaste them if they give too little. I'm not going to reach your level of sophistication in these matters.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 07:03 PM

Giving too much? MMMMWWWWWHHHHHHAAAAAAHAAAAAHAAA!!!

Sure we're good at rebuilding infrastructure. Look at how well we're doing it in Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Metchosin
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 07:27 PM

Perhaps the UN offical's crack was dearly needed or perhaps the sheer magnitude of the disaster is finally sinking in, regardless, the Canadian government is now coughing up $40 million. Now lets see if the US government will up its ante, with an equivalent commitment of $400 million.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 07:37 PM

Guest, I get the feeling that if the US did NOT use the military to bring in supplies you would be wondering here WHY NOT, since, you would no doubt say, it would be the fastest means and far more efficient.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Grab
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 08:05 PM

Donuel, hopefully that will be immediate funding - if the various agencies need more then I trust it'll be provided (if the various countries in a position to contribute have any conscience). Certainly private individuals are contributing massively, in addition to any government aid.

As far as sums of money go though, check this one out. As far as impressing the Muslim community - yeah right, see what the Muslim community does for its own. This was never about religion, it was about how much people (and their elected representatives) cared about people in other countries, and the elected representatives of some rich countries (the US and UK) were seen to be giving too little on behalf of their citizens. To their credit, most Western nations care deeply about people in trouble, which is why the US was stung into doubling contributions (although I'd be more impressed if they paid their UN money to help regular aid work outside of crises). I think the almost complete lack of assistance from the richest nations in the Middle East displays how little unity there is in the so-called "Muslim community" - and, incidentally, how little the leaders of those countries care about anything that isn't right on their doorstep.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 11:13 PM

All people care about other people, and want to do all they can to help in circumstances like these. Many of the westerners coming out of the devastated regions all speak of the generosity of the Sri Lankans, the Thai, etc etc. If we were able to keep the relief effort at that level, it would be wonderful.

But disaster relief is big business, and fraught with geopolitical realities most people think get magically suspended at times of crisis. Nothing could be further from the truth. Because people aren't educated about those cold, hard, brutal realities of "foreign aid" doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, or that we should all plug our ears, cover our eyes, and pull the blankets over our heads.

It is much better to learn the truth, and then have some knowledge to carry us all forward to the next crisis, hopefully changing things for the better along the way, than simply deny that side of disaster assistance and relief exists and spit at the messengers saying otherwise.

I've just watched a State Department briefing on C SPAN. Believe me, I'm not the only one disgusted by the Bush administration's militarist response to the crisis and attempt to usurp the UN's authority as the global institutional leader in humanitarian and refugee aid, assistance, and relief. The reporters kept asking why the US was forming this "Core Group" when it was UN's job to spearhead and coordinate. I'm not just making all this up out of thin air.

The State Dept is also being challenged by the reporters in the briefing why it has taken so long for the US to dispatch the planes and ships already in the region to assist. I don't have any problem whatsoever with ships, helicopters, etc. being used for the rescue and recovery relief efforts in the immediate aftermath of the disaster. I have serious problems though, with sending in US troops (I mean come on, there aren't any blue helmets or other country's military going into the region that I've heard of) rather than US humanitarian experts and workers, and with any set up that results in our military remaining beyond the initial rescue and recovery phase as a presence in the region. Especially in the most unstable areas like Banda Aceh in Sumatra, where a civil war has been raging for years.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST,Mrr at work
Date: 30 Dec 04 - 08:23 AM

Right now they need troops - they need people to dispose of thousands and thousands of bodies. The experts can come in when the coast is clear, but it's a waste of expertise to just put them to work burning/burying bodies. But the dead and rotting are a tremendous hazard and may kill as many a sthe initial tsunamis did.

Meanwhile, did anybody catch the amazing graphic they had behind the ABC news anchors? Really showed the dynamics of the waves. Why didn't they make that a main part of their anchorage?

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Dec 04 - 08:35 AM

In a situation like this the only thing to do is to be ready to shoulder the cost, whatever it is. The same kind of attitude societies take to fighting a war. "Whatever need to be done, we'll do it." And that's not going to be a few million here and there, it's going to mean billions.

The number who have died so far, which looks like topping 100,000, is just the start. It is estimated that there are five million survivors without the things they need to survive - clean water, food, shelter, medical help.

It's the job of the rest of us, the lucky people who, through no merit of our own, weren't directly affected, to do whatever we can, however much that costs us and disrupts our cosy world. That means being ready to give directly as indivuals, but it also means doing what we can to force our political servants (who we treat as if they were our political masters) to respond adequately on our behalf.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST,Mrr at work
Date: 30 Dec 04 - 09:43 AM

Arthur C. Clarke has checked in, finally, he's OK.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: tarheel
Date: 30 Dec 04 - 09:44 AM

i thought he(bush) missed a chance for the world to gain respect for the USA again...
i somehow think that the administration did not believe that the tragedy was as big at first,as it really turned out to be...
it was a golden opportunity for the USA to let the world see and know that we care about everyone and are willing to take a stand for those who need us!
i just feel that we(the USA) should have taken the lead in world response to such a huge tragedy!...

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Once Famous
Date: 30 Dec 04 - 09:47 AM

Typical lefty posturing, this time trying to capitalize on a tragedy to finger point and get their anti-American agenda across.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Dec 04 - 09:57 AM

If we had pledged a billion dollars to the UN's effort, imagine what that would have meant. We spend more than that daily just maintaining the charade of Operation Iraqi Freedom.

Again, I ask the question, is the US news media underreporting the casualties and devastation because the Bush administration's attempts to minimize the scale of the catastrophe?

Hell, even the US AID guy in the State Dept briefing said the news media is grossly underreporting the numbers of dead, because they are only using the figures of number of bodies recovered. Many of the bodies will never be recovered. He said people should be prepared for the numbers of dead to go much higher.

As to the idea that a military response being right/wrong--I'm not saying no military support should have been given. Quite the contrary, I think the US military in the Pacific should have responded immediately, just as they would had this disaster happened off our coasts. I would credit Bush with setting up the coalition, if I thought that meant these nations were truly going to be coordinating things for the entire region, which is the awful part of this disaster--it is spread throughout 12 countries and thousands of thousands of miles of ocean between sites of devastation.

But the US response, especially considering that we have a lot of hardware and troop strength in the region, just wasn't forthcoming.

Two helicopters and an airplane? Jaysus, can we spare that much?

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST,KT
Date: 30 Dec 04 - 11:00 AM

Martin, if your 9:47 post is in reference to tarheel's 9:44 post, I think you're wrong. I think his comments in that post are just the opposite of anti-American as you said. I believe they are born of his belief in the GREATNESS of this nation, one that is comprised of people who are deeply compassionate and generous in their response to the tremendous tragedy that has befallen our brothers and sisters. His expression of disappointment in that initial response is legitimate. I think it's BECAUSE he believes in the greatness of this nation that he is hoping for more.

Our response to this tragedy need not be limited to initial reactions. This is an opportunity for the world to come together. May it be so.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Sorcha
Date: 30 Dec 04 - 11:08 AM

116,000 and counting....my paltry $100 won't go far, but it's something. This is one third the population of the entire state of Wyoming....I can't even imagine...........

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Dec 04 - 10:25 PM

I read that it's estimated that the collections for this in Ireland so far amount to £3 per head (about $4.8), and that's without taking into account whatever the Government does.

If only the other comfortably-off countries could match that it'd make a serious difference - it'd mean £1350 million pounds across the European Union, and about £900 from the USA. Adding up to £2,250 million - equivalent to $4430 million, just for those two regionsn of the world. That is the kind of money that is going to be needed

And hell, that £3 a head isn't an unrealistic amount of money to give in a situation like that. I suspect that most Mudcatters will be giving more than that.

And that is why the amounts so far promised by all our Governments really are not at all impressive. Money isn't the only thing or even the most important thing, but it's the necessary thing.

Remember, for all we know that mountain in Las Palmas in the Canaries could slip into the sea tonight and when it does the people of the Atlantic could be facing the same catastrophe, only probably far worse. If it doesn't happen tonight it's certainly going to happen some time.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 12:09 AM

As far as sums of money go though, check this one out. As far as impressing the Muslim community - yeah right, see what the Muslim community does for its own.

Ok, I did. Here's the text contained in your link:

RIYADH, Dec 28 (Reuters) - Oil-rich Saudi Arabia pledged on Tuesday a $10 million aid package to victims of the tsunami disaster in Asia, which officials say has killed more than 59,000 people and affected millions of others.

A statement on the official Saudi Press Agency said the country would donate $5 million worth of food, tents and medicine, to be transported and distributed via the Saudi Red Crescent.

Another $5 million in funds will be given to several international aid groups such as the Red Cross and the U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees, the statement added.

Neighbouring Gulf country Kuwait has pledged a little over $2 million in aid. The United Arab Emirates will donate 30 tonnes of food, blankets and clothing to the victims.

Aid agencies struggled on Tuesday to cope with the scale of the disaster. The United Nations said communities would require billions of dollars to help them recover.

The GDP of Saudi Arabia is approximately 31 percent of the GDP of the US (the GDP being a fairly good measure of available resources of a country). According to the article in your link, Saudi Arabia has committed 10 million dollars. According to the figures given in the posts preceding yours, the US had committed 35 million dollars. So that would mean that the amount committed to by the US as of the time of your post (as far as we can tell using the information in this thread), was only about three percent greater than that of Saudi Arabia in terms of percentage of available resources.

I have some difficulty understanding why you would choose a thread about a tragedy of the magnitude of this one to make such a bigoted hatemongering post.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 12:41 AM

A small correction to my previous post. It should read:

The per capita GDP of Saudi Arabia is approximately 31 percent of the per capita GDP of the US

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 01:43 AM

"And do you have a picture of the pain?"---Phil Ochs

As always, vicarious stuff going on. Quit counting the dead---and get to the saving of lives. In this, I am pro-life!

Art

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Nemesis
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 07:54 AM

Why not instead of spending our energies debating this here, get "out there" and do something to help?

I've just walked up to our local shops - full of people panicking about getting trolley-loads of food for the one day of famine in UK know as New Year's Day .. the banks don't have any signs up saying "donate here" yet, etc... no one is rattling a tin - albeit that it is reported that the British public has donated £1m an hour over the past 24 hours.

So, I'm proposing getting the donation details photocopied off and standing outside the supermarket handing these out outside the supermarket - going into the banks and getting the managers to put signs up "donate here" (surely these can be downloaded from the various disaster appeal sites).

Got go .. things to do.
Cheers
Nem

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 09:39 AM

Good to see that Google has got a link on its front page - Ways to help with tsunami relief"