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BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: GUEST,heric Date: 31 Dec 04 - 11:52 AM Satellite images |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: Once Famous Date: 31 Dec 04 - 11:57 AM Guest,KT. No you are wrong. My comments were in support of Tarheel. I've read enough of his posts to know where he is coming from and I feel similar to him on various matters. I do not need your lecturing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: Amos Date: 31 Dec 04 - 12:22 PM McGrath: That island is Tenerife, I believe, in the Canaries. The mountain in question is already underwater, but liable to break off and cause huge underwater waves producing Atlantic tsunamis. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: kendall Date: 31 Dec 04 - 12:22 PM I just saw a report on the BBC that the UK has pledged 50 million pounds (roughly 100 million dollars) and the USA has pledged 18 million. The math doesn't lie. |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: Bill D Date: 31 Dec 04 - 12:37 PM those reports of 'pledges' don't tell the whole story for ANY nation. Some of the numbers represent only preliminary amounts to get things started. No one knows yet exactly how much will be needed, and in what form. The US is sending things like an aircraft carrier with helicopters which will not be reflected in that $ amount. No one said the early 'pledges' would be the final amount. Help will be required in that region for years, and I suspect that the US will I am not defending OR attacking anyone's donations...yet. 6 days is not soon enough to make these decisions about relative generosity. |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 31 Dec 04 - 12:59 PM No, Amos - Tenerife is also in the Canary Isles, but a different island from La Palma - here are two more sites about the disaster that is waiting for us some time in the future (tonight or in a hundred years, but it's coming): Why the only certainly about the La Palma tsunami is that it WILL happen, and Evaluation of the threat of mega tsunami generation from postulated massive slope failures of island stratovolcanoes The point is not that we should turn our attention from the present disaster, and doing what we can to help, but that we should be even more motivated to help out by the awareness that some time it is going to be us needing the help. .................... £50 million pounds for the UK works out at about £1 per head, not exactly a sum of money that would put much strain on most of us. The same would be true if the US were to up its contribution to the same level, and stumped up £300 million. I would hope, and anticipate, that ordinary Americans dipping their hands in their pocket will come up with more money than that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: MBSLynne Date: 31 Dec 04 - 01:03 PM Brucie...thank you for making me feel better about the little I can do. And with all your other posts on here...as with almost all your posts..I agree entirely..you are absolutely right. What a lovely man you are. Btw..I'm rather proud to say that my 14 year old son (RAT-W), really upset by what he had just seen on the news, said he was going to donate all the money he'd just got for his birthday and Christmas. He has a Saturday job, and he is now talking of working a couple of Saturdays and sending the money to one of the appeals for this dreadful disaster. Love Lynne |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: Ebbie Date: 31 Dec 04 - 03:29 PM The US has now announced that it is committing $350 million to Asia. Wouldn't it be nice if one good thing came out of this tragedy? We can't afford an unwinnable, unnecessary, useless war AND a humanitarian effort to save and nurture whole peoples. Let's let the war go away. |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: KT Date: 31 Dec 04 - 04:16 PM I was just writing to affirm what BillD said. As I'd said in my earlier post "Our response to this tragedy need not be limited to initial reactions." Then I saw Ebbie's post! Exactly!! We have many opportunities to respond in many different ways. May it bring out the best in all of us. Martin, my intent was not to lecture you. My apologies if it appeared that way. Please see my PM to you. KT |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: ard mhacha Date: 31 Dec 04 - 04:43 PM The response from Britain and Ireland is magnificent, how can anyone find fault with the heartfelt generosity of those who give to such a worthy cause. The TV news from the BBC and RTE shows people from all walks of life and all age groups donating to all of the various charities, "humbling" was the response from one Red Cross official. The same support I am sure is also taking place on the European and American continents. |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: GUEST,Frank Date: 31 Dec 04 - 06:02 PM The earthquake center in Hawaii informed the American leased atoll in Diego Garcia used for military manuevers in Iraq and Afghanistan of the earthquake and possible tsunamis. It was ignored and Indonesia, Ceylon, India, Sumatra all suffered the consequences. Undergound testing of atomic materials may have had something to do with the earthquake and ignoring the melting of the polar ice caps that raise the water table may mean more tsunamis for the future. Frank |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: GUEST Date: 01 Jan 05 - 11:29 AM BillD, I know this sounds cynical and you don't want to go there, but it is truly impossible not to be cynical about the US response to this disaster, IMO. The US government quickly immediately approved $13.6 BILLION to disaster relief in Florida in the wake of the hurricanes this year, just before the US election. Compare that to the initial $10 million offered for this multi-national disaster. You can't just stick your head in the sand and pretend there is no political aspect to disaster relief. Politicians control the pursestrings. We need to be clear about that, and act accordingly. |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: Bill D Date: 01 Jan 05 - 02:08 PM " it is truly impossible not to be cynical about the US response ..." ...and do you mean the US response or G. Bush's response? They are NOT exactly the same thing. as you see, some are NOT cynical. You will have to deal with your own IMOs. All I said was we need to wait & see. In a disaster of this type, the need will be ongoing, and it looks like most of the world is gearing up to do a fair share. You may speculate all you wish about the 'immediate' order and magnitude of the US pledges.....As much as I dislike Bush and the current administration, I personally have no knowlege of the discussions and decision making process. It simply makes no difference whether the US said "$35 million" or $10 Billion in that first couple of days, as it will take time and planning to spend ANY allocated amount. It's not like we needed to drop crates of money over Sri Lanka within 48 hours! Once it was clear how extensive the damage was, the dollar amount increased, and YOU do not know whether the US was shamed into a larger committment, or just took the time to be sure what to do....and unless you KNOW the answer, cynical speculating just because the US is a popular target is just tedious! You could have said "I think $35 million will not be enough-I sure hope they decide to up that." Discuss facts rather than resorting to immediate finger pointing! If months went by and the US had said, "we think we have done enough and we ain't gonna give more!", then maybe a bit of righteous indignation would be relevant. |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: Wolfgang Date: 01 Jan 05 - 02:49 PM Seriously. I'm not talking nonsense here. (28 Dec 04 - 07:50) I'm coming back to you, 28 Dec 04 - 07:50, now that more information is available. You remind me very much of GWBush, not in political leanings but in character. You too like to fire your mouth off on the basis of unreliable information and pass judgement without being even remotely well informed. Kohl is a man I never have voted for and I always hated his politics. But here I see nothing wrong in what he has done and am ready to defend his actions. He was in the third floor of a hotel in Sri Lanka of which only the first two floors got flooded and which withstood the impact of the water. He has seen the disaster first hand. For two days, there was no access to that region due to a street having been blocked. On the third day, the surviving tourists were flown out. Some wanted to stay, Kohl among them, but have been asked by the authorities to agree being flown out. The reason for that is that they need all the remaining infrastructure for their own citizens and that accomodating tourists in areas hit by the flood takes much needed ressources away. So he agreed being flown out with the other tourists but is among the very small minority of German tourists surviving the flood still staying in other parts of Sri Lanka. We can see him in TV supporting financial and other aid and asking Germans to donate money. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: GUEST Date: 01 Jan 05 - 03:18 PM I recognize that the tourists are being evacuated as quickly as possible, to get them out of the way, and to prevent them and their loved ones from clogging communication lines especially. I have no problem with that. But I still have a problem with Kohl's behavior, even now. But there is no point arguing that with you Wolfgang, because we aren't going to agree. I have been discussing facts, BillD. When I say "the US" and "the Americans" I have been referring to the Bush government. I too make distinctions between individuals and governments. Now, I am very cynical about the Bush pledges for aid, because of the Bush government's very well known track record of pledging money and never delivering it (for instance, in the rebuilding money for Iraq, Afghanistan, and the Bam earthquake in Iran for starters). That is Bush's ideological "compassionate conservatism". Promise everything in the moment when people are most passionately engaged, wait for the hoopla and media circus to fade, and then don't deliver what you promised. That way, you look good without paying any price. The Bush strategy to a T, as we saw in the recent election with his very different response to the Floriday hurricanes--he was there in a heartbeat, passing out bottled water and promising billions. It paid off for him too. He won the hotly contested state of Florida. Compare that to his reaction to the Asian tsunami, where the victims don't vote in American elections. I sincerely doubt that the people of south Asia will see much of that money promised by the US government in any form other than military intervention in their countries under the flag of the "coalition" Bush has built to undermine the UN. It looks as though you and I won't agree either BillD, so I suggest we drop it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: dianavan Date: 01 Jan 05 - 03:37 PM I don't think it makes much sense to have a U.S. coalition as well as a U.N. response. The problem is not dollars and cents. The problem is communication and distribution. It would make more sense to have the U.N. overseeing the operation so that all activities could be co-ordinated. What is the purpose of a separate U.S. coalition? |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: GUEST Date: 01 Jan 05 - 03:39 PM To undermine the UN. |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: dianavan Date: 01 Jan 05 - 04:03 PM I'm inclined to agree with you on this, guest, but Canada seems to be a part of the U.S. led coalition although some of the affected countries would rather deal with Canada, directly. At any rate, the U.S. coalition and the U.N. seem to be working together on this response. Seems ineffecient, at best. Lets hope that both teams can co-ordinate their activities. http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2004/12/31/debt-tsunami041230.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: Wolfgang Date: 01 Jan 05 - 04:08 PM Seriously. I'm not talking nonsense here. (28 Dec 04 - 07:50) I'm coming back to you, 28 Dec 04 - 07:50, now that more information is available. You remind me very much of GWBush, not in political leanings but in character. You too like to fire your mouth off on the basis of unreliable information and pass judgement without being even remotely well informed. Kohl is a man I never have voted for and I always hated his politics. But here I see nothing wrong in what he has done and am ready to defend his actions. He was in the third floor of a hotel in Sri Lanka of which only the first two floors got flooded and which withstood the impact of the water. He has seen the disaster first hand. For two days, there was no access to that region due to a street having been blocked. On the third day, the surviving tourists were flown out. Some wanted to stay, Kohl among them, but have been asked by the authorities to agree being flown out. The reason for that is that they need all the remaining infrastructure for their own citizens and that accomodating tourists in areas hit by the flood takes much needed ressources away. So he agreed being flown out with the other tourists but is among the very small minority of German tourists surviving the flood still staying in other parts of Sri Lanka. We can see him in TV supporting financial and other aid and asking Germans to donate money. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: Bill D Date: 01 Jan 05 - 04:10 PM "It looks as though you and I won't agree either BillD, so I suggest we drop it." ...well, perhaps so. 'agreeing' seems to mean both of us adopting YOUR position and basic attitude, I guess. I always thought that thoughtful progress was made in debates where 'agreement' was NOT immediate. I see your general point about Bush's notion of 'useful' money being that which enhances his own position and election..........Do you see my point about NOT being sure exactly what sequence was involved in THIS case? I am not a fan of Bush, but I'd like to believe that even this Republican administration would respond to tragedy and suffering...even if they didn't say it as forcefully as I might like. but, as you say, we'd better drop it, as I am unlikely to just nod wisely at your broad accusations. |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: GUEST,Bashed Date: 01 Jan 05 - 10:35 PM Why not quit bashing the US and do something yourselves. Does it matter what the US gives. It only matters what you give. The US will not receive any credit no matter how much it gives. So if you are for the US don't concern yourself because they will not receive any credit for what they give or do, if you are against the US take joy for they will not receive any credit for what they give or do. None of this benefits the people who are suffering. Do what you can and do not be concerned about what other people are doing. Men and women will be working to help the people suffering from this disaster without regard to receiveing credit. Companies will be giving, charities will be giving, and governments will be giving. The company I work for is matching employee contribution, so that is how I am helping. Pray, contribute, and if you are in the affected areas do what you can. Making judgements about other people efforts is not helping and only shows were your real concerns lie. |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: Stilly River Sage Date: 02 Jan 05 - 01:55 AM I've skipped through this, particularly the squabbling and finger pointing, and note that I will have to go read some news stories, since I didn't read about Kohl's experiences. This came from Leadfingers on Dec. 28:
We had an extremely interesting lesson on the news today about what happens when cultures aren't so interfered with or colonized that their experience of their land is allowed to be handed down, generation after generation. One small island about 50 (? I think) miles north of Bande Aceh had relatively little death, though there was material destruction. Why? Because almost 200 years ago there was an earthquake, and afterward a tidal wave killed a lot of people. The elders got smart and have handed down a cultural practice, through all of those years, that when there is an earthquake, all inhabitants should immediately head for the high ground. They did that, and very few died. Now, for the main reason I scanned this thread, to highlight some photos. ABC (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) has a page of photos here. I call your attention to this particuarly obscene shot. I can't get the photo itself to load here, but find this thumbnail on the other link, and follow it to the Euro couple on the beach. The alt text says "Foreign tourists sunbath on a Thai beach as local workers clear the debris from the tsunami." The man is looking up at the workers as they begin to clear the debris of the tsunami. Are there bodies in this wreckage, do you think? Is he thinking "fuck what she says, I'm going to help" or is he merely wondering if they have any cold Diet Coke around somewhere? And what in hell is wrong with this woman? If you found yourself in a place like this and you were able bodied in the face of such disaster, could you blow it off and go lie on the beach? There is no label here, except their white skin, to say that they are foreigners. Are they Europeans or Americans (and does it make a difference if both are now considered colonizers)? A Belgian friend who was here for dinner tonight said he thought they were Europeans, that they are scrambling to the area as fast as they can go because vacations are so cheap. And he said he thinks these folks left their consciences at home. Don't they know you should never leave home without it? SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: Nemesis Date: 02 Jan 05 - 06:22 AM SRS ... it looks an appalling picture. There were also reports and interviews with an inarticulate, British it has to be said, tourist who'd chosen to contiue their holiday ... along the, absurd I thought, lines echoing post-9/11: "not drinking beer, not sunbathing, not holidaying, and going home would be giving in to (terrorism)global catastrophe .... letting circumstances win" ... Good (not) to know that nothing will bow the mind, will, or conscience of some. Sadly, the immediate "uncaring" message of that picture is one shared by some, who bluntly put, "don't give a shit". Let's be thankful, as witnessed by the unilateral, World-wide response from humans of all races, religions and creeds, that they are a minority - probably sitting under a metaphorical bridge with the rest of the race of trolls. |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: dianavan Date: 02 Jan 05 - 01:51 PM I hope the people sunbathing in that picture will be identified and have to face the shameful consequences of their lack of compassion. Would you want them as friends or neighbors? |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: Stilly River Sage Date: 02 Jan 05 - 02:12 PM The consequences of being identified could certainly be far greater for this couple than the apparently insignificant act in itself, but I don't see evidence of any news or commentary site picking up on it. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: mg Date: 02 Jan 05 - 03:46 PM It does seem in bad and callous taste, but they are perhaps helping the economy, keeping people employed etc. Some places were hit harder than others and can recover more easily. But for sanitation purposes alone until the beach was totally inspected and declared safe, it seems unwise. For all we know they might adopt some orphans or build a clinic having seen the devestation first hand. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: Stilly River Sage Date: 02 Jan 05 - 04:01 PM Were I there, I would be paying for the same hotel and meals, so the economy wouldn't be injured. But I could never lounge around while such a drastic life-and-death struggle was going on mere feet away. Does her nose go so high in the air that she can't smell the stench around her? Even if there aren't dead people under the heaps, the debris itself will smell bad. Had I paid for such a trip, I would no longer consider it a vacation, but the prospect of its being a life-changing and perhaps ultimately energizing experience is a real possibility. (I should add that I worked for several years as a member of a mountain rescue group, a civil defense organization in my county. By now it's hard-wired in to stop and help. The only possible exeption would be if my children were with me, and their ultimate safety.) Just food for thought. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: GUEST Date: 02 Jan 05 - 05:49 PM The woman in the photograph is named Hannah Langdon. She is a theatre nurse from Basingstoke. She and her firefighting husband were holidaying in the area at the time of the tsunami. Their hotel was destroyed, they were on the beach at the time, and are only left with their beach clothes. Many survivors returning from the disater are arriving at UK airports barefoot and devoid of all possesions. Hannah and her husband stayed on after their holiday. They both arranged unpaid leave from work. She has been working around the clock attending to the injured. Her husband has been helping to clear debris for the last twenty hours non stop. The photo captures them as they take their first rest for twenty hours. Of course the above is pure fiction. But it could be true. Don't be too quick to judge? |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: mg Date: 02 Jan 05 - 10:21 PM I am truly concerned about the bodies now. Don't read further if this upsets you but I think if found in that heat they couldn't be moved essentially. Is there a way of almost cremating them as they are found? And blasting the sand around them with heat as well? I think we all have to think of these things as who knows what could happen where next. I also wondered about robots etc. that could have scooped up the bodies. I know that some of the cultures over there have a tradition of funeral pyres and others of course don't, but we all have to be willing to sacrifice our own bodies and those of our families in the interest of sanitation etc....we can't wait for the priest to come bless us etc....mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: Stilly River Sage Date: 03 Jan 05 - 01:43 AM Don't be so quick to be an apologist, guest. The above is nonsense and you know it. The woman's handbag is beside her on the bench. She has lost nothing, and apparently has no conscience. Mary, you've thoughtfully addressed something that the Western news, at least, has tiptoed past. For those who have been involved in search and rescue, it is understood that decomposition happens fast in heat, and moving bodies once they are basically bags of fluid is next to impossible. (Sorry, really, but that is what happens). It must be one of the most horrible jobs in the world to try to deal with death on such a scale. And I would venture that most who are doing the work have never had to do something like this before in their lives. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: GUEST,Mrr at work Date: 03 Jan 05 - 11:32 AM What I find so amazing is that with all this wonderful technology, we can't do SHIT for those poor people. What we should send is bunches of helicopters and a thousand troops on the ground, burning bodies and rubble, for 8 hours/soldier (I use the term soldier loosely, to include anyone in the armed forces. I have a hard time using "troop" in the singular.), all day and all night. In about three days (which is 3 days x 3 shifts x 8 hours x 1000 people = 72,000 individual/hours) we might make a noticeable dent in the problem. Not to mention that if it weren't FOR the technology in the first place, there a) wouldn't be so many people there, and b) there wouldn't be the dependence on the infrastructure that got destroyed. What a trap for thinking beings, as Larry Niven once wrote. |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 03 Jan 05 - 12:01 PM The impression is that for our politicians - irrespective of where we are living - this has not been seen as the top priority. It's something to get round to, with an eye on doing enough to get critics off our back, but not really important, not on the scale of something happening on our doorstep. At least the public response has forced our leaders to significantly raise the level of public help, for fear of being outdone and shamed by the response of ordinary people. Not raising it to the kind of level that is appropriate for the scale of this disaster, but at least something. That is assuming the promises of aid are actually kept - which normally doesn't in fact happen. Money is diverted from one set of starving people to another, aid budgets are used as a way of subsidising people back home and so forth. But in any case it isn't just about money - it's the recognition that this is something that needs the level of total committment which would be involved in a World War. It makes most of our previous disasters, natural or manmade look small by comparison. And the other thing is, once we have done what is needed to repair the wound in humanity which this has caused, we need to look ahead with a new kind of intelligence and committment. For years we have been warned that up ahead, sooner or laters, there are disasters on thsi scale or bigger waiting for us - but it gets shrugged off, because likely enough it won't happen in our time, in our corner of the world. So every time there is some disaster, we run around bodging up some kind of improvised solution. We turn away from the difficult task of organising a global system that will be able to move into action when needed. "Globalisation" may be the word of the age, but it seems it stops at imposing that are tailored to the task of making it easier for the rich to take advantage of the poor, all over the world. |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: Bill D Date: 03 Jan 05 - 12:20 PM Bodies ARE being burned, and I have seen a number of reports that those resorts that are able to clean up enough to function are BEGGING tourists to come back (or stay) and provide some income and jobs for those whose lives have been affected. I have no doubt that there ARE tales of gross insensitivity, but I would not assume that the woman in the picture is 'guilty'...nor would I assume that she would be useful doing anything else than spending money. I have SEEN hurricane & tornado disasters in which it was best to just stay out of the way, unless you had needed expertise.......it's very hard to judge from here... I saw a very telling interview with a man from, I believe, the World Health Orginaztion, who was being asked "why we didn't do THIS, and whay we didn't do THAT?".....he replied that the decisions, order of responses, and exact nature of aid needed to be determined by "experts on the ground, rather than well-meaning ideas by those who were not 'there'. He cited a story about a disaster a few years ago in which a rumor was started that a meningitis epidemic was spreading, and people were demanding that meningitis vaccine be sent....but the experts CHECKED first, and found NO meningitis, but rather cholera...so they sent soap, rather than useless vaccine. |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: wysiwyg Date: 03 Jan 05 - 12:34 PM I believe families are now being told to stop looking for family members among the dead-- that the dead are no longer identifiable (decomposition?). So in addition to starving and being without water, a fresh tsunami of shock and grief will be kicking in, person by person, group by group. Let's hope they are able to look to some good that IS being done, and not focus on the things that have not yet been done. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: Nigel Parsons Date: 03 Jan 05 - 01:23 PM New Lyrics by Lanfranc Nigel |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: ard mhacha Date: 03 Jan 05 - 04:58 PM I am amazed by the fantastic response of the Brits and Irish people to this disaster, I am sure the rest of the world is doing its part also. The kindness and generosity is touching, the stories of how young and old have played their part in raising money restores your faith in humanity. |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 03 Jan 05 - 05:57 PM Here's a very sensible article from The Independent about The lessons that must be learned for the future by an Sri Lankan born English politician who was on holiday there, and saw the wave as it hit, but survived: ...We have all seen the terrible scenes on television, and I have seen many of them in Sri Lanka for myself. Hundreds of foreign holidaymakers have died as well - a dreadful tragedy, but one which has brought the peoples of their home countries together with the peoples of South Asia in a sense of shared suffering and determination. Determination, not to prevent natural disasters, for that is beyond our power, but to make sure that when the next one happens, as it surely will, we are much better prepared.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: GUEST,concerned UK Date: 05 Jan 05 - 08:07 PM It appears as if many in the Christian and Muslim worlds are at least united in one way. Their paranoia against each other. How unfortunate. Furthermore, how can personalities and ego's that are thinly veilled in religious or political righteousness be allowed to interfere with the releif effort? Colin Powell orchestrating a united releif effort in addition to the UN's, and some muslim conspiricy theorists even suggesting the USA caused the tsunami!! (Hence the little damage to the Diego Garcia airbase) People who blame the USA for the tsunami, are as shameless as those in the US administration who see their effort here as a way of gaining brownie points in the Arab world after the mess America has caused in Iraq. Do ideological differences explain why some Arab nations have contributed so poorly to the effort? Saudia Arabia $10m at the last count! Are these countries so concerned about being to closely associated with western nations that they would rather give just a token donation, than be seen as collaborating with the USA, and europe? It seems as if the west willingly picks up the tab for much of the releif operation but is still sniped at by muslims who do far less to help and yet take every oportunity to question western values. Be certain that the individual people of the UK did not, and do not stop to question the religion or ideology the tsunami victims before freely giving as much as they can afford. |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: CarolC Date: 05 Jan 05 - 11:51 PM Kingdom Triples Its Aid for Tsunami Victims "RIYADH, 5 January 2005 — Saudi Arabia has tripled its assistance to Asia's tsunami victims to $ 30million. Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques King Fahd directed that the $ 10million donation announced earlier by the Kingdom be raised to $ 30million "in light of the size of the tragedy and the losses" suffered by the countries affected by the disaster, according to the Saudi Press Agency. King Fahd and Crown Prince Abdullah have instructed the Saudi Arabian Television to organize a telethon to collect donations for the victims. The telethon will be held tomorrow, Thursday, with phone-in addresses appearing on the screen. Meanwhile a delegation from the Jeddah-based Islamic Development Bank (IDB) left for Jakarta to participate in tomorrow's summit of world leaders to discuss the scale of disaster and how to rebuild the devastated region. Many Saudi businessmen and children have donated money and goods to help all the victims of the Asian tsunamis. One leading industrialist, who requested anonymity, told Arab News he had chartered a plane to take tons of aid, disinfectants and detergents to affected areas, while school children have donated their pocket money to help the victims. Three Saudi youths from Jubail are heading to Indonesia to help in the relief effort. Most Saudis are reluctant to make public their charitable contributions, viewing this as a form of boasting, but many told Arab News they had decided to go public after foreign news stories accused Gulf states of being stingy in responding to the Asian calamity." I still find it appalling that people are using this tragedy as an opportunity to spread misinformation and hatred towards Muslims. |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: Peace Date: 06 Jan 05 - 12:05 AM I think as the world sees the magnitude of the disaster--and the greater disaster to come with millions of people in need of shelter, food, water and medical care, the purse strings will loosen. The Canadian government announced that it will match the contributions of individual Canadians. Our school division has declared this Friday "Tsunami Disaster Relief Day" and students and staff will give as they are able. The money will be forwarded to Ottawa and sent on from there. On January 11, the UN is meeting to deal with the issue of donors and how to best apply the money and help. Seems slow, but the problem is a massive one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: Grab Date: 06 Jan 05 - 12:51 PM Thank you for the update, Carol. However, this is still well below the level of contributions (adjusted for GDP) from other countries. Following various PMs, Carol's asked me to clarify my earlier post. It seems that Martin Gibson and others are using it as justification for "Muslims are stingy". That wasn't my intention, and I dislike my posts being used for justifying bigotry. It was imprecise though and so could be read that way. What I intended to point out was that the governments of the richest Muslim nations (exception: Qatar) are failing to pull their weight. This is not a criticism because they are Muslim, it's a criticism because they're rich and they're not doing anything substantial. Another intention of that post was about suggestions that Muslims would think better of the US for donating money to Muslim nations hit by the earthquake - I don't think it would make a blind bit of difference when the US is still in Iraq. And a third intention was that I don't believe there is such a thing as a "Muslim community" who could be influenced by US donations to Muslim countries, because the suggestion that all Muslims from Istanbul to Indonesia are "one community" is dangerously simplistic and factually incorrect - I believe the failure of Middle Eastern governments to put significant money in the pot is an example of that. What I did *not* intend was to say that Muslim individuals are failing to pull their weight. In fact I'm sure they are doing so (see Carol's latest post), because your religion has no bearing on whether you care about people caught in something like this. By the way, if people have an issue with a post, please PM or post on the thread to ask "did you really mean that?" in reasonable language. I'll gladly correct it, and I'm sure anyone else would too. But for myself, I'll be ignoring anyone calling my posts "bigoted hatemongering" in future, because that is not reasonable language but a personal insult, and I don't do flame wars. Graham. |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: GUEST Date: 06 Jan 05 - 01:49 PM Quote from CarolC "I still find it appalling that people are using this tragedy as an opportunity to spread misinformation and hatred towards Muslims" Perhaps you'll find this supprising but I agree with you, and my coments were aimed specifically at govormnets and organisations, and certainly not at the unconditional genourosity of individuals everywhere. My comments regarding the Saudi govornment were correct at the time, and their recent increase in donations is totaly comendable. Thank you for your updated information. However I was incensed when hearing of the USA conspiracy theory which to me shows how some....people are using this tragedy as an opportunity to spread misinformation and hatred towards ....America!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: GUEST,Concerned UK Date: 06 Jan 05 - 01:53 PM Sorry, I forgot to sign off. The previous message ... Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: GUEST Date: 06 Jan 05 - 01:49 PM ..... Was mine. I did not mean to levae it anonymous. |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: CarolC Date: 06 Jan 05 - 03:03 PM When making judgemental assertions about the relative generosity and/or stinginess of various governments with regard to how much money they contribute in situations like this one, it would be useful if we had accurate information about how much of what each country pledges ever actually gets sent. I have been hearing and reading that many countries do not honor their pledges of aid, or only honor a small portion of their committment. So while we are comapring governments and countries (an activity of which I have difficulty seeing the constructive value, other than self aggrandizement and/or promoting a hate agenda), we may just be passing on information that is in no way indicative of just how generous or stingy the governments and countries in question really are. |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: CarolC Date: 06 Jan 05 - 03:12 PM I should correct my last post with this. Instead of saying... So while we are comapring governments and countries It should say... So while we are comapring the relative generosity and/or stinginess of various governments and countries in the context of a tragedy such as this one |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: Grab Date: 07 Jan 05 - 12:21 PM That certainly is a fair point, Carol, especially considering the US was nearly booted out of UN decision-making recently for failing to pay its dues. Difficult to get that info though. |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: Peace Date: 07 Jan 05 - 12:26 PM A dollar from an impoverished person is more than a dollar from a wealthy person. Doesn't buy more, though. |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 07 Jan 05 - 12:36 PM From today's Independent:£2.2bn pledged: but will the world deliver this time? Recent Disasters HURRICANE, Central America 1998 Pledged: £4.8bn Delivered: £1.6bn FLOODS, Mozambique 2000 Pledged: £214m Delivered: £107m EARTHQUAKE, Bam, Iran 2003 Pledged: £17.1m Delivered: £9.5m And that is leaving aside the other ways governements cheat. For example, they use the aid money to pay their own people for goods and services, instead of local people, and they rack up the notional cost of surpluses they had stacked up as a way of subsidising sections of their own economy; and they make up for the cost of helping one lot of people by reducing the help they were giving to some other people who probably need it just as badly, but aren't in the headlines. |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: Leadfingers Date: 07 Jan 05 - 07:50 PM Seems a little small minded to post this !! Just to say - - - |
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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death From: Leadfingers Date: 07 Jan 05 - 07:50 PM Two Bloody hundred ! |
