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BS: Challenge to the whiners
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Subject: BS: Challange to the whiners From: Once Famous Date: 26 Jan 05 - 10:33 PM Everyday, the same cast of Mudcat's favorite socialists bash America. They criticize just about everything one day after the next. Here's a challange to the Mudcat pinkos: Say something good about this country America you live in. Force yourself to. You out there know who I am referring to. Give it a try. If you can't, the question can seriously be asked why you are living here. Brits who do not live here will be disqualified for their usual ignorance. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challange to the whiners From: Once Famous Date: 26 Jan 05 - 10:56 PM So far the whiners such as Amos, Bobert, and Peter K. just can't seem to find anything good to say. Maybe they are incapable. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challange to the whiners From: GUEST,Wesley S at Home Date: 26 Jan 05 - 11:00 PM America is the best country in the world and the only country I can imagine living in on a permanent basis. It's just a shame that our current president is such a moron that has a terrible vision for running this country. But I have evert faith that we'll get past it. My country - I think I'll stay here and help change it for the better. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challange to the whiners From: Once Famous Date: 26 Jan 05 - 11:03 PM Good post. Repectfully stated. Thanks. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challange to the whiners From: Bee-dubya-ell Date: 26 Jan 05 - 11:06 PM I love my country. It's the current government I hate. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challange to the whiners From: Amos Date: 26 Jan 05 - 11:09 PM Well said, Wes. I agree with you completely. Just to set the record straight, I condemn G.W. for his flaws and failings, his lies and his pretenses. I haven't whined yet. that all fantasy on some delusory dildo's part. I will defend this country against any effort to destroy it whether from asinine psychos within or fanatic criminal weirdos without. Is that enough of a loyalty oath for you, Fat-Face HUAC Gibson? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challange to the whiners From: Teresa Date: 26 Jan 05 - 11:18 PM I love the land where I was born. I love the ideas I've heard about in school, such as liberty and justice. Unfortunately I am not seeing much of those two virtues exhibited by our supposed leaders. The one thing I'm thankful for now is that I can criticize the government without being penalized for it. However, I don't know how much longer that right will last, either. I live here because my family is here, and my parents are getting frail. If I didn't have my family, I'd be in Canada so fast it'd make your head spin. Teresa |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challange to the whiners From: Bobert Date: 26 Jan 05 - 11:24 PM Tell ya what, Martin. If you are up to the challenge then I am. I'll be more than happy to relate one good story about my countrymen if you will. Nuthin' about Mr Bush, 'cause from my vantage point there ain't nuithin good to say about him other than "nice tie"... But, if you ate really up to the task I will accept you challenge in telling good stories about the American people... I have thousands... You up for it, pal? I am.... Lets get ready to rumble... Oh, you laid down the challenge so I get to pick the weapons and I chooze no anal or dick or pussy stuff... Just real stories about real Americans... And no cussin' and no references to orifaces. Deal? Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challange to the whiners From: Peace Date: 26 Jan 05 - 11:26 PM I just posted this on another thread, but I am also gonna post it here, too. It is addressed to Martin and Amos. I am gonna say this once: (Thought I was, anyway.) You two actually LIKE each other. If you'd both talk music and forget the politics, what a beautiful world it would be. I have sat back in awe of you both for a long time now. Never jumping in on one side or the other, because I like both of you very much--as people. I have talked with Martin on a number of occasions about politics and music. He is thoughtful and smart. Amso, you helped me with your encouragement and I'll never forget that. The specifics are not important here, but this is: Third man in always catches the s#it when it hits the fan, but guys, we ain't never gonna have a better chance for peace than right now. Martin, my friend, here is what Amos posted on the "Purist" thread, and I quote--well, copy and paste then add quotation marks: Martin, I agree with you completely. Nothing irritates me more than having a good feast of spontaneous music interrupted by someone who has to have the details match their version. I understand that you were addressing a different definition of "purist" than was being used originally in this thread. I don't understand it, and I really enjoy playing with others who feel as I do. P'raps we should boogie down together sometime and see what comes out. You might be surprised what a good liberal can do bending them strings. LOL!:" If that ain't an olive branch, I don't know what one is then. Amos, you too are a friend, and I am indebted to your kindness and concern. It meant lots to me at the time and it still does. I never miss a post by either of you guys if I can help it because I enjoy what you both have to say--except when you say it to each other. I know you two will NEVER agree about President Bush. The country is 50-50 to do with him and one would expect that people here would be too. But we have the opportunity at this time to effect change. Martin, I have used more swear words than you and my friends told me to give it up. I am trying. (Mostly it helps when I avoid the political threads. I am not suggesting you do, because I know you are a strong supporter of both the USA and its elected President.) Amos, this is not a marriage ceremony. I am just hoping that you and Martin could agree to disagree, shake hands (not hug) and then I can read either of your posts without worrying I am going to see people I like going at each other. Third man in always catches the s#it when it hits the fan, but guys, we ain't never gonna have a better chance for peace than right now. What do you two say to that? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challange to the whiners From: Peace Date: 26 Jan 05 - 11:28 PM Well, I pooched the copy and paste on THAT didn't I. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challange to the whiners From: number 6 Date: 26 Jan 05 - 11:31 PM The founding fathers of the U.S. ... the ones who protested about british rule, (and eventually did something about it) would they not have been classified as 'whiners'? Why are Americans today who protest and voice their opinions against their current government classified as whiners and unpatriotic? Being canadian I am certainly proud and happy to be here, and not down south of the border! sIx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challange to the whiners From: michaelr Date: 26 Jan 05 - 11:40 PM Well you know, Martin, I've seriously asked myself the question why I'm living here, and I'm seriously considering leaving, too. I have increasing trouble living with the reality that the tax money I work for goes to a bunch of illegitimate liars and criminals who use it to murder innocents for profit. I also have increasing trouble living with the rising tide of fundamentalism and bigotry that's invaded this country's public discourse, its media and its politics. I was not born here. I came here in 1979 looking for the liberty that smirky bastard felt compelled to mention 476 times in his speech. Well, the joke was on me -- the next year, Reagan was president, and it's been a downhill slide ever since. But it's never been as dire, as crass, as blatant, as shameless, as obviously criminal as it's been since G.W. Bush first made a mockery of American ideals in 2000. So what's keeping me here when I could go live and work in any EU country I choose? OK Martin, I'll say something good about where I live: You can't beat the climate, the fresh produce, the wine, and the plethora of live music of all kinds to be had within a short distance. (This is California, of course.) The countryside is relatively unspoiled, the air is breathable, the water is drinkable. The people are (mostly) tolerable because they are (mostly) tolerant. There are not too many of them for the available food, and most of them have roofs over their heads. The ones who fire handguns on my street at night haven't hit my house yet. The ones who live in the bushes by the freeway and trudge by my house twice a day on their way to the soup kitchen haven't broken into my house yet, just my car. The ones who spew evangelical idiocy I am able to avoid. The freeway is still not too crowded to make a 30-mile trip in under an hour and fifteen. The average house is priced well within the reach of a millionaire. My job still exists on-shore. Erm... can you tell I'm running out of praiseworthy things to mention? Let's see... I am still alive... so is my wife... her job still lets her work 14 hours a week without benefits... my car gets more than 12 miles per gallon... um... er... Cheers, Michael |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challange to the whiners From: Amos Date: 26 Jan 05 - 11:41 PM Sounds good to me. I take back what I said about the hot dogs in Chicago. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challange to the whiners From: GUEST Date: 26 Jan 05 - 11:58 PM Ex-Pat's alright with me
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Subject: RE: BS: Challange to the whiners From: hilda fish Date: 27 Jan 05 - 12:49 AM well, I love Åmerica. I love Tucson and Årizona and Çonnecticut, particularly the university there where they had the berkshire conference and New York and New Orleans and the painted desert and San Franciso (sanfran to the locals) and Washington. I love the music and the history behind the music and I love the food - well - I love the salads and the cheesecake - and I love the way Sir JoHn writes (woops he's english) and I love the history of the Åmerican left that has had such an influence on the world of ideas, and I love the way the Åmericans dress and I love the sports that they play and the American flag is very pretty also and I love the grand canyon and I particularly love the varied cultures of the first americans who are so generous in sharing it, and I love the Åmerican international corps who help so many people all over the world and I love so much the Åmericans who oppose the involvement of their country in Iraq and are critical of that bush guy and I love the Åmerican coffee where they put chocolate AND vanilla in. How good is that? I love American dollars and I love American sunglasses and I love American department stores and I love love love Åmerican music - oh I said that. Ånd I'm Åustralian. What do you want for your money? I'll give it to you fabulous Åmericans you! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challange to the whiners From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 27 Jan 05 - 05:02 AM I match you and raise you one, Martin. I am deeply troubled about what Bush and his cohorts are doing to the freedom I love here in the still pretty good-old U.S.A. But, I am thankful that I can protest (in a free speach zone?... irony) in this country without getting my hands chopped off. I love most of the people in this country like Bobert does. I love the beauty of America, and the diversity, and I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. Now, MG, here's the challenge. Let's see you say something positive about anything other than bluegrass and Bush. And of course, yourself. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challange to the whiners From: GUEST Date: 27 Jan 05 - 05:47 AM As a Brit who knows nothing , according to MG,I'm disqualified from commenting. So I'll comment just to show my respect for MG! GWB thinks he is a crusader for good, (reads too many comics) and he's using religion as an excuse. The end result of this is that other people do the same, but they let their religion take precedence over their country, so they go fight in Afghanistan against their own countrymen. We have similar problems in the UK, see the 4 guys returned from Guantanamo, only problem our PM has is being a protestant married to a catholic, he's a bit buggered for religious conviction. Saddest part for us is that if a proctologist examined GWB's arse he'd find Tony Blair up there. Thanks for the chance to say this Martin! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challange to the whiners From: GUEST Date: 27 Jan 05 - 06:07 AM Probably the best thing to come out of America (USA) is Mudcat. The concept is flawless; the operation not always so. But Free! It's hard for an outsider to understand the intense patriotism that needs to be voiced. Politics in the UK are regarded as a bizarre aberration that no-one takes seriously. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challange to the whiners From: GUEST Date: 27 Jan 05 - 07:41 AM 1. A person shouldn't have to justify living here if he was born here. 2. When Clinton was president, who were the whiners then? 3. There is nothing more patriotic than to try to set your country on the right course when you think it is on the wrong course. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challange to the whiners From: GUEST,Jim Dixon Date: 27 Jan 05 - 07:42 AM That was me. Sorry. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challange to the whiners From: GUEST Date: 27 Jan 05 - 09:48 AM Whining and Dining: some food for thought |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challange to the whiners From: CarolC Date: 27 Jan 05 - 12:03 PM The best things about the United States are its Constitution and its Bill of Rights. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challange to the whiners From: SINSULL Date: 27 Jan 05 - 12:04 PM I love my country. Every day I wake up and am grateful for the freedom and opportunities it offers me. And every day I am ashamed of the atrocities committed in the name of my country. Thousands of men, women, and children have died or been maimed to satisfy the hubris and greed and outright stupidity of our leaders. War is a last resort not a means to an end. We will pay the price for this for generations to come and rightfully so. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challange to the whiners From: Georgiansilver Date: 27 Jan 05 - 12:14 PM Martin...what makes you think that Brits who do not live there are ignorant or need disqualifying? I am certain that there are many scholars in this country who are more adequately equipped to make comment than you. Personally, I am pleased to be living in the U.K as gun crime is minimal. Crime in general is at a reasonably low rate..but unfortunately on the increase. There are many great Folk Clubs and Festivals. Food, wines, beers, lagers, licquers and other comestibles are mostly excellent. Poverty is at a low level. Besides what the Government are giving..the people have raised over £250,000,000 for the Tsunami funds....the charities here are focussed and providing. I am also certain that the U.S has many qualities although much of what we hear in this country is negative....and to be perfectly frank with you...the way you behave toward others gives rise for concern as some might think that your "Mudcat persona" is real and typical of a person from the U.S. Being on the "Cat" is quite educational and there are many wonderful people from both sides the pond...but please don't dismiss us as ignorant, as we may have opinions which are relevant...or some of us anyway. Best wishes, Mike. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challange to the whiners From: Little Hawk Date: 27 Jan 05 - 12:19 PM Every country is the "best country in the World". :-) Just ask the people in the know there...and they are ALL right from their own particular angle! ("you're right from your side, I'm right from mine" - Bob Dylan) As for the USA...it's a great place! It has wonderful geography, almost every kind of climate, an extraordinarily rich history and culture, and endless possibilities for living a good life. I can think of many good reasons to want to live in the USA. I am sure that the innate goodness of Americans will survive the unfortunate experience of being briefly ruled by George Bush, and the nation will go on to further great accomplishments. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challange to the whiners From: Jim Dixon Date: 27 Jan 05 - 12:26 PM My British brother-in-law laughs when he hears an American politician say "This is the greatest country in the world." He says, "Not even the French would say that. They might think it, but they wouldn't say it." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challange to the whiners From: Once Famous Date: 27 Jan 05 - 12:30 PM Jerry Here's something positive. it's the opposite of negative. bobert, start a new positive thread about good stories of American people. Guys, this is my thread. I'm calling you out. Not the other way around on this thread. BTW, on the other thread Brucie was reffering to, I've agree to keep it more low key with Amos if he does the same, for now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challange to the whiners From: Jim Tailor Date: 27 Jan 05 - 12:33 PM The American left has painted itself into a bit of a corner where patriotism is concerned. For political reasons its leaders (especially Democrats) don't want to appear to be unpatriotic -- in fact will get very indignant at the suggestion -- implied or explicit (remember the rant from the Senate floor by Daschle about a year ago?). The mudcatters on the left sometimes reflect that same indignance (There's a thread to that effect from about the time of the Daschle rant). But patriotism presents some real conflicts for the American left... 1. The American left has trouble loving who we are (that would imply a level of acceptance that I think they fear would result in complacency toward change), or who we were (their focus has been almost entirely on anything negative in our history rather than how we might have risen above those weaknesses -- even at a faster rate than the rest of the world). The left's patriotism is almost soley rested in what they think we could become. Unfortunately, that doesn't unite them as lovers of the US because: 1. we haven't yet met that goal. 2. the left itself is more united in agreement that we haven't met goals than they are in what those goals are and how they should be prioritized. Thus, they can't even agree on their own level of patriotism, or even what patriotism means. 2. That brings up the next stumbling block. There is a huge misunderstanding among the left -- they can't seem to find any percievable difference between "patriotism" and "jingoism". Intellectualism has carried a great deal of the weight for modern liberalism, and because "jingoism" is anathema to the intellectual -- even though there may be a difference between "jingoism" and "patriotism" it is just easier to avoid all appearances and reject both. 3. The left is very much like Groucho Marx who "wouldn't join any club that would have him". The left's loathing of the USA is very much a reflection of self-loathing. ANYTHING else seems more attractive -- more esoteric, more exotic, less "meat-and-potatos". Kinda like how it's hard here on the mudcat to tell the Brits from the Americans because the Americans just love to use Brit expressions -- like shite, bollox(sp -- I'm not brit, nor do I use the expressions for affectation),etc. -- in an attempt to sound more, y'know, international. 4. the left has always been more internationalist in its goals -- the UN is VERY highly regarded -- almost sacred. 5. The left has pretty much tied itself to the intellectualist concept of "diversity". That is -- there is no superiority of culture or philosophy (religion is a different matter -- it is all......wait......here's the word.....shite). All cultures are to be embraced equally -- but implied therein is the "zero sum game" that if one thing is good then another is somehow diminished. Thus, the left avoids tying itself to any culture as "good" for fear of being percieved as diminishing any other culture. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challange to the whiners From: Peace Date: 27 Jan 05 - 12:36 PM Martin and Amos, I LOVE you guys. Thanks so very much. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challange to the whiners From: Strollin' Johnny Date: 27 Jan 05 - 12:37 PM Right on GS, cool, way to go man! America's a fantastic place, with some of the nicest people I've ever met - had some great times there - so I can speak with some, albeit limited, experience. Shame Martian can't claim the same experience of the UK, which is equally fantastic, has equally nice people, and about which he talks such unadulterated shite. When God gave Martian a mouth he wasted a good arsehole. (ROFL!) S:0) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challange to the whiners From: GUEST,heric Date: 27 Jan 05 - 12:49 PM America is almost as cool as Italy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challange to the whiners From: Little Hawk Date: 27 Jan 05 - 12:51 PM That's a great remark about the French! LOL! They absolutely believe France is the greatest country in the World, but they wouldn't be so gauche as to say it. The English have always believed England is the greatest country in the World, and they have often said so in no uncertain terms, being less subtle than the French. English arrogance was at its peak during the Victorian era, when England saw the rest of the World primarily as its Empire...a useful appendage. The Germans have gone through periods when they were absolutely certain that Germany was the greatest country in the World, but the end of WWII kind of shocked them out of that presumption. The Soviets thought their society was the greatest in the World. So did Mao Tse-tung. So did Pol Pot. And Napoleon. And Caesar. Generally speaking, the more autocratic and oppressive a regime is, the more its politicians make grand statements about it being the "greatest country" or "greatest society" in the World. Such regimes are very dangerous, because they feel morally justified in attacking others and conquering them, in order to "save" them. Any politician who routinely blathers on about HIS country being the greatest in the World is either an ass, a poseur looking for attracting more votes, or a real and present danger to the whole rest of the World. Or all 3 of those. There in fact IS no greatest country in the World. It's a foolish and egocentric concept for anyone to hold, and it leads to trouble. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challange to the whiners From: CarolC Date: 27 Jan 05 - 12:56 PM Here's the difference between "patriotism" and "jingoism"... Jingoism: My country, right or wrong, Love it or leave it. Patriotism: Our country, right or wrong... When it's right, to keep it right, When it's wrong, to make it right. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challenge to the whiners From: GUEST,heric Date: 27 Jan 05 - 12:57 PM It's fun fun FUN! and anyone who wants to bitch abut it should just build their own military-industrial complex. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challenge to the whiners From: Little Hawk Date: 27 Jan 05 - 01:04 PM So that catapult I'm building in the backyard is going to come in handy, eh? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challenge to the whiners From: Big Mick Date: 27 Jan 05 - 01:04 PM Martin, I am calling you out. What is your background on the subject? Are you a veteran? Do you work in your community to make it better through volunteering? Or are you just another mercenary that was a hippie when it was convenient and now is a right winger because you are a greedy old man with an attitude? I always am dismayed at those that think patriotism is about slogans like "God Bless America" and "My country right or wrong". Here's a clue for you, so sit down and concentrate. One of the hallmarks of American democracy is free speech. It is, maybe, the most fundamental of our freedoms. This country was born in the caldron of being able to criticize and examine the actions of our government. Another example is flag burning. I am always amazed at otherwise good folks acting like we ought to ban flag burning! It is precisely the ability to do that that caused me to go and serve my country. I think those ideals are the cornerstone and the defining difference in our experiment. I have criticized my overseas friends who attack this country at the drop of a hat. I believe that in the history of the world to this point, this country has been a shining star. Evidence of this is that many peoples want to imitate it. But we have made many mistakes in that experiment. Think native peoples, My Lai, supporting right wing dictators, Wounded Knee, slavery, much of our foreign policy, and on and on. We are still the best hope for a better world, but only if we operate with respect for our neighbors, and (most importantly) if we retain our reverence for the right as a people of self examination. It is the ability to criticize that allows us to continue to tinker and improve. Idiots who are upset, like you, with the criticism of our current administrations policies, lack any real understanding of what our system is all about. So .... Martin, what exactly is your record of service? Military or otherwise? I might be wrong, but I suspect you don't have much of one. If I am wrong, I stand ready to offer a sincere apology. Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challenge to the whiners From: GUEST,heric Date: 27 Jan 05 - 01:06 PM I can't think of anything much more fun than building a catapult. You go, Hawk. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challenge to the whiners From: Jim Tailor Date: 27 Jan 05 - 01:11 PM Carol, your co-mudcatters don't find it quite so easy to distinguish between the two. Here , somebody posted this, "GB Shaw said 'Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it.'". As they posted it, it's safe to assume they see the same lack of distinction. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challenge to the whiners From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 27 Jan 05 - 01:13 PM Figured you couldn't, Martin.. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challenge to the whiners From: Amos Date: 27 Jan 05 - 01:24 PM Jim Tailor: I am afraid you've built a generalized impression of the American left that does not match up with my experience at all, is generally condescending and inacccurate. What possible logic is there in asserting someone must agree with something by Shaw just because they posted it? IF you look at the ocntext, Piers -- defending socialism, I think -- does not in fact agree with the sentiment. This country is -- or at least was -- superior in many ways to many others because of its trailblazing establishment of respect and tolerance as a national value, and its position that basic human liberties and rights were mandatory. That respect for basic liberties and rights is what DEFINES liberalism, not all this other flotsam and jetsam that your madcap columnists like to attach to the word. It has also, communally, overcome some terrific obstancle and acheived some amazing goals, well worth celebrating, and outstanding among nations in many respects. The key leverage we provided in the second WW is especially vivid to me, as is the accomplishment of reaching the moon, for two examples. Why should you try, however, to ignore the dark side of your own country?If you don't confront the real flaws at the same time as the pluses, how could you possibly move forward? As an example, if we were to elect a nutcase as a leader, and realized it afterwards, should we not own up to that fact? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challenge to the whiners From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 27 Jan 05 - 01:27 PM You're not cutting me much slack, Martin. I think you might have allowed more than 23 minutes before celebrating my failure to come up with anything good to say. Especially when you've tried to disqualify me from taking part. Fortunately I take the view that it's my thread as well as yours, so I'll chuck in a comment or two anyway. The bits of the US I've seen have bowled me over: Chicago a little bit, San Francisco big time, and Alaska (where I spent most time) and the northern Californian coast probably more than anywhere I've been yet (except Scotland and the English Lakes here at home). Much of the time I was pedalling my way, so I had plenty time to take in the small as well as the big. Roughing it in hostels, as I did some of the time, I met some really great guys, as I did everywhere I went. I also met people who irritated me by eating nothing but cookies, which they said was OK because they were "low fat" (LOL). And I was completely pissed off by the fact that in some stores it was virtually impossible to buy ordinary unprocessed food. Almost everything claimed to be low-fat, and even tea had to be flavoured with something else. I couldn't buy a toothbrush without having to choose from about 40. (When you've ben to places wehre people cannot afford toothbrushes, this can look pretty self-indulgent.) The reason all this irritated me so much, I think, is because Europe - with Britain in the vanguard - is desperately rushing to "catch up" with this idiocy. I have a certain attachment to the UK, and also to Ireland where I've spent some years. But that does not incline me to respect a government now bringing in the odious device of house arrest as though we were in a tinpot dictatorship. Neither could I respect an Admin that has made America the first democracy since Britain in the Boer Wars to incarcerate innocent people in a concentration camp. But I was born in the UK and I am entitled to live here and argue my corner. That's democracy - or was. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challenge to the whiners From: Jim Tailor Date: 27 Jan 05 - 01:32 PM Amos, I'm not trying to say that I should avoid looking at the dark side of my country. I simply presented one facet of the issue -- that the American left has a real problem with each other when they call themselves "patriotic". They have to include (very quickly) all the qualifiers to that patriotism that make it, as a concept, palatable to their co-liberals. Mick's post (above) is a classic example, as it contains elements of at least three of my five points. And of course Piers was agreeing with the Shaw quote. p'Shaw. Have a nice day! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challenge to the whiners From: GUEST,heric Date: 27 Jan 05 - 01:37 PM Wow, you chose well Peter K. You have seen the best. All you need now is a Grand Canyon river trip; maybe New England and/or the Florida Keys. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challenge to the whiners From: pdq Date: 27 Jan 05 - 01:50 PM Fionn - Yes, we here in the U.S. we have far too large a selection of tooth brushes. As soon as possible, we must have the government tell us which are the correct ones to buy and eliminate all others. And again, thank you for pointing this out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challenge to the whiners From: Little Hawk Date: 27 Jan 05 - 02:02 PM Well, patriotism is a pretty dicey subject when it's patriotism to a conquering aggressor empire... :-) I mean, hey, most Germans were highly patriotic in 1939-45, eh? And most Romans were highly patriotic while their legions went all over the ancient World conquering other people and taking their lands. but, hey....should that give patriotism a bad name or require qualifiers??? Hmmm. What is a patriot to do when his government engages in unprovoked aggression???? (wringing hands) Fortunately, as a Canadian, I do not face this kind of problem much. I can be patriotic without adding qualifiers. That's not so easy when you're an American, if you have a conscience and a reasonable level of awareness about what's going on in the World today. Empire-building, I mean... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challenge to the whiners From: Jim Tailor Date: 27 Jan 05 - 02:04 PM ...first you'd have to accept the notion of "empire building". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challenge to the whiners From: Jim Tailor Date: 27 Jan 05 - 02:07 PM (psssst. What I mean by that is that it seems awfully, awfully hard for many of you mudcatters to distiguish reality from a mudcat/internet construct.) Have a happy one! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challenge to the whiners From: CarolC Date: 27 Jan 05 - 02:24 PM Carol, your co-mudcatters don't find it quite so easy to distinguish between the two. My "co-mudcatters"? I see only one Mudcatter who posted that in that thread. You are doing the usual sort of "us vs. them" kind of generalizing that I see on all sides of the political spectrum. "They" are different from "me" and those like me. So therefore, what one of "them" says, they all say. That's hardly a legitimate line of reasoning. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challenge to the whiners From: CarolC Date: 27 Jan 05 - 02:33 PM psst... Hey Jim Tailor. What's this "you Mudcatters" business. I notice you are a member yourself. Doesn't that make you a Mudcatter? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challenge to the whiners From: Peace Date: 27 Jan 05 - 03:01 PM "Neither could I respect an Admin that has made America the first democracy since Britain in the Boer Wars to incarcerate innocent people in a concentration camp" Minor correction. Canada detained people of Japanese and German extraction during WW II, FYI. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challenge to the whiners From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 27 Jan 05 - 03:15 PM ...this is my thread... No one "owns" a thread. Just because we start a thread doesn't give us any rights over it. Any more than a conversation or a fire. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challenge to the whiners From: Amos Date: 27 Jan 05 - 03:24 PM So did the United States. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challenge to the whiners From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 27 Jan 05 - 03:35 PM The thing is, the French generally don't actually go round saying they think that France is the greatest country in the world, because they actually take it for granted that it is, the same with the English. Or rather there is a shared assumption that they are superior to other places on some particular things, and that those are the things that really matter. The same is true of lots of other countries, probably most. Don't Americans feel that way too? "We are the greatest" rather sends a message of feeling insecure about the claim. And yet there really are aspects of the USA which clearly would justify that kind of relaxed confidence. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challenge to the whiners From: Little Hawk Date: 27 Jan 05 - 03:37 PM Yup. Canada and the United States were both shivering in fear in early '42 at the thought of the Japanese invading the West Coast... :-) So they interned completely innocent Japanese immigrants in concentration camps, and deprived them of their homes, livelihood, and civil rights. I can tell you from long experience in playing excellent military simulations of the WWII campaigns that there was no friggin' way the Japanese could have mounted such an invasion effort successfully (if at all)...it was beyond their capability...but that's with the benefit of hindsight. Paranoia almost always wins out over good morality and/or common sense in times of national emergency. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challenge to the whiners From: mg Date: 27 Jan 05 - 03:50 PM where I live there is one kind of underwear, Hanes her way, maybe 4 kinds of socks, maybe ten kinds of toothbrushes. White running shoes and rubber boots. One brand of towels etc. But in about five colors. Having multiple options of toothbrushes and having a competitive market for them is what allows the price of toothbrushes to be affordable to more people. Supplying our toothbrush market keeps people in other countries fed, I hope....and used to probably keep some of our own people working. I'm not for unbridled, unchecked, exploitive capitalism at all...but complaining about toothbrushes? That seems self-indulgent to me more than the toothbrushes themselves. They aren't hurting anyone. If they don't sell at Safeway they will be sold for way cheaper at teh dollar store and less fortunate people can have nice toothbrushes. I hope that we get out of using plastics for them..maybe ceramics would be better as it would be made out of sand..who knows. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challenge to the whiners From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 27 Jan 05 - 03:56 PM All I want is a land somewhere, with just one brand of underwear. Wouldn't it be loverly? Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challenge to the whiners From: Amos Date: 27 Jan 05 - 04:05 PM Well, you gotta forgive people, LH -- no-one believed the Japanese would "awake the sleeping giant" at Pearl, either. Just as on 9-11, once the inconceivable happens before your eyes, you suspend your rational sense of normal probability and get very suspicious of the universe. One of the reasons war is hell. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challenge to the whiners From: beardedbruce Date: 27 Jan 05 - 04:07 PM Jerry, But what kind? Boxer or brief? And are you prepared to let the government decide for you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challenge to the whiners From: Jim Tailor Date: 27 Jan 05 - 04:08 PM All right then, Carol! It's you & me then, the two of us spreading the good word -- one CAN be a mudcatter AND be patriotic! (and one can even keep the qualifiers to an understood minimum!). Marge: Homer, that's the WORST thing you you've ever done! Homer: Marge, you've said that so often it's lost all meaning. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challenge to the whiners From: Once Famous Date: 27 Jan 05 - 05:03 PM Jim tailor, totally enjoyed your post and others you have been writing. I appreciate your common sense approach to the left and it's own self-esteem in this country. Keep up the good work. Now, for Big Mick. I was in the service in the early 1970s. got medically discharged for an injury. IT SUCKED and I have very little repect for you if it was the highlight of your life which obviously it was. I saw many of my friends come back from Viet Nam (a few didn't) all fucked up. I did my first drugs in the Army and learned some of the greatest swear words. don't talk to me about slavery, you fat fuck. We extol it's torment on our people every Passover. Here's some free speech for you: You did jack shit in the service compared to the vets of world war II. Get off your high horse which takes you an hour to lift your leg to get on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challenge to the whiners From: Peace Date: 27 Jan 05 - 05:20 PM "But what kind? Boxer or brief?" NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT AGAIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIN |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challenge to the whiners From: Georgiansilver Date: 27 Jan 05 - 05:25 PM Hope you read my earlier post Martin......You are living up to the U.K view of the angry American...using unnecessary bad language... having a go at everyone..etc etc. Is this persona you materialise actually a true American or just some negative thinking paranoiac who is not typical of someone from the U.S....I wait with great anticipation your reply. Signed...just another ignorant Brit! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challenge to the whiners From: Big Mick Date: 27 Jan 05 - 05:27 PM Touched a nerve, eh Martin? You are so-o-o-o-o-o-o easy. Let me give you a couple of quotes from my post:
So .... Martin, what exactly is your record of service? Military or otherwise? I note that you never responded to anything but the observation about military service. Which means that you are very touchy on the subject. Which leads me to believe that you know not from whence you speak. Military service was not the highlight of my life, just a defining one. I only use it here to make certain points. One of those points that is very important is that preservation of the right to criticize one's government is precisely why I served. I find criticism, just as the founding patriots did, to be ones duty in our form of government. Without it, our basic freedoms are eroded, as in the case of The Patriot Act. Only a government that is responsible to, and responsive to, the citizenry can be truly free. As to the name calling, please keep it up. Your attacks only demonstrate the point I make about you. You are an intellectual lightweight who loves the attention you get. This is because of some very obvious insecurities. When your intellect fails you, you resort to this.
By the way, I printed off some of your posts and showed them to the local Rabbi. He is not very impressed with you, and indicates that you need help. He indicated to me that you are a bad example of your people. I told him to not worry, I am a Catholic and we know plenty about broad brushstrokes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challenge to the whiners From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 27 Jan 05 - 05:30 PM I think Mary was refering to one brand name, Brucie: Hanes. If they're good enough for Michael Jordan, they should be good enough for everyone. As long as one company has a monopoly. Then, you have the freedom of choice between boxers or briefs. High rise or low rise. I always stunk at Monopoly. Landed on Boardwalk and went broke, every time. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challenge to the whiners From: Georgiansilver Date: 27 Jan 05 - 05:33 PM O.K so wouldn't it be nice if....:-One womans underwear was another mans underwear? Not sure......... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challenge to the whiners From: CarolC Date: 27 Jan 05 - 05:48 PM Yes. With regards to "Haines Her Way", the choices would be: Briefs Bikinis Hi Cut Leg Briefs (or French Cut Leg Briefs) Hi Cut Bikinis (or French Cut Leg Bikinis) Hip Huggers or Hipsters Thong (or Butt Floss) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challenge to the whiners From: Georgiansilver Date: 27 Jan 05 - 05:50 PM OOOH Carol, you say such nice things! swoooooooooon |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challenge to the whiners From: CarolC Date: 27 Jan 05 - 05:51 PM So which kind do you wear, Georgiansilver? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challenge to the whiners From: John MacKenzie Date: 27 Jan 05 - 05:55 PM We only floss our teeth over here in the UK Giok;~) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challenge to the whiners From: CarolC Date: 27 Jan 05 - 05:57 PM ...and then of course, there is the all-important question - white, black, pink, or leopardskin? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challenge to the whiners From: Georgiansilver Date: 27 Jan 05 - 06:05 PM Would you really like to know Carol? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challenge to the whiners From: CarolC Date: 27 Jan 05 - 06:12 PM Actually, no. ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challenge to the whiners From: Once Famous Date: 27 Jan 05 - 06:15 PM big Mick, I don't care if you showed them to your Rabbi. I don't have to answer to you or your pretend Rabbi. I answer to my Rabbi who is a good friend and to God. I showed your posts to a devout Catholic that I work with who is also a psychologist. He says that you are the type of person who in his holier than thou life, has a lot to learn about the world beyond the Internet. You know very little about what Jews are made of big Mick. It's not the whiskey that you Irish hold so dear to your lifestyle. As for intellectual lightweights., if only your body could match how light yours is. typically, when someone like you gets told off, your phony tolerance agenda sure comes blurting out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challenge to the whiners From: CarolC Date: 27 Jan 05 - 06:25 PM He indicated to me that you are a bad example of your people. I assume by "your people", your Rabbi friend was talking about the human race, Mick. Very perspicacious of him. Maybe not such a bad example of an internet troll though. Anyway, thank you for your service to our country. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challenge to the whiners From: Georgiansilver Date: 27 Jan 05 - 06:25 PM Relief! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challenge to the whiners From: Big Mick Date: 27 Jan 05 - 06:31 PM Atta boy, Martin! Keep showing them your stellar wit. That response was the equivalent of "Oh Yeah....". And one more thing, lantsman. You should be careful about making pronouncements about which you know nothing. I might be a bit more versed in the culture and religion of Jewish folks than you are aware of. Carol, thanks for pointing out my grammatical mistake. It wasn't fair the way I stated it.
Enough on this thread. The point is made. You have chosen not to respond to any substantive discussion, instead just reverting to your typical filth. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challenge to the whiners From: Chris Green Date: 27 Jan 05 - 06:35 PM If I may paraphrase - "Everyone's a whiner on this show!" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challenge to the whiners From: GUEST,heric Date: 27 Jan 05 - 06:46 PM That was no grammatical mistake. That was downright weird. Oh, brother, ANOTHER one who has to apologize to Martin. . . . Where will it end!? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challenge to the whiners From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 27 Jan 05 - 06:47 PM Does underwear really have brands? Are there some brands that are fashionable and some that smart people wouldn't be seen dead in? Good grief. ...................................... There's a saying, "If you pick it it'll never get any better." Sometimes it's best to appling that to people, at least to when they get in a particular way of attention-seeking. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challenge to the whiners From: Chris Green Date: 27 Jan 05 - 07:01 PM Unfortunately, the miners learned in 1984 that if you picket, it won't get better. Thread creep, I know, but I can't believe anyone's taking this shite seriously! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challenge to the whiners From: CarolC Date: 27 Jan 05 - 08:14 PM Well, a girl likes to be comfy you know, McGrath. Nothing like a big old wedgie to make a day go pear shaped. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challenge to the whiners From: Donuel Date: 27 Jan 05 - 08:55 PM The nature of the question/challenge is designed to make a respondent be defensive of their love for country and admit they are ineffectual immature whiners. Typical rhetoric for someone with no intention to reexamine their own ideas. That kind of rhetoric excludes an olive branch of any kind. btw olive branches don't grow in the US do they? ........................................... Lies, miscommunication, misunderstanding and rewarded greed for wealthy will always be the hallmarks of every single government throughout history - bar none. It is however over the top in the USA of late. I believe, should we survive the advent of our own weapons, that this country is like the growth of a great tree that will tear any stone wall at its base asunder. Any stone wall built to confine it or divide it will be knocked over or consumed by the mighty living wood over time. Don Hakman |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challenge to the whiners From: Biskit Date: 27 Jan 05 - 09:16 PM hilda fish I love all the stuff you love too,..espescially Tucson! we wouldn't live anywhere else. as to the rest of you folks,..give it a rest,your blood pressure is probably going through the roof, and we'd all miss you if anything bad happened. Peace! Through Understanding ~Biskit~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challenge to the whiners From: Once Famous Date: 27 Jan 05 - 10:03 PM Big Mick I would say at least four out of every five posts that I have read of yours shows you know very little about much. You can't take the heat, pal. Everything you don't like is filth in your book. Anyone who's defining moment in life was the Army over 30 years ago has probably not grown much as a person since. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challenge to the whiners From: John MacKenzie Date: 28 Jan 05 - 05:19 AM When love congeals It soon reveals The faint aroma of performing seals The double crossing of a pair of heels. Lorenz Hart |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challenge to the whiners From: GUEST,Larry K Date: 28 Jan 05 - 10:36 AM Why America is the best country in the world- How many countries would permit this kind of forum in their country? Do you think we could criticize the government in Iran, Syria, North Korea, or hundreds of other countries? Heck, there are a number of countries that won't even allow Fox News in the country. You have got to admire a country that allows Amos to post over 75 messages in less than a month criticizing the president just to keep the thread alive, and nobody in the government cares. And nobody will care if he posts another 75 messages. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challenge to the whiners From: Amos Date: 28 Jan 05 - 11:47 AM Larry: Most of those posts were not written by me, nitwit -- they were published in public press. I happen to agree with you about the greatness of the nation being reflected in its free examination of ideas, its open press, and its laws about freedom of speech. It is unfortunate that these freedoms are less than they once were. For example, never before in my life have O heard of "free speech areas" where those who disagree were specifically required to congregate, and nowhere else. If that interpretation of the First Amendment doesn't make you nervous as hell, you're not paying attention. But the nation still has its soul, no question. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challenge to the whiners From: GUEST,Radical Smurf Date: 28 Jan 05 - 11:55 AM I enjoy Jim Tailor's posts. As a left leaning radical Smurf, I find his posts refreshing in that they are coming from a person of true intelligence, and not from someone who just plays at being perceived by their forum peers as intelligent in obscure internet chat forums. The problem as I see it with the current incarnation of the "liberal Democrats" (ahem!) in the US, is the pandering to the cult of patriotism, especially when their pandering so thinly veils their smoldering contempt for the cult of patriotism's recent meteoric rise and ascendancy. Now, I believe global capitalism and the military industrial complex are well deserving of our contempt. As is the Bush administration. As was the Clinton administration. But there is no good reason whatsoevr for any thinking individual to be patriotic, or buy into the patriotism cult, as it is all nationalist plutocrat propaganda anyway. So why can't we be honest about that, instead of rallying around the John Kerrys and Big Mick's of the world in a phony attempt to convince people that we, the left, are patriotic too? That's how we end up with these absurd patriot pissing contests. I mean, I just can't manage to wrap my head around the delusional idea that Big Mick holds, that he was in Vietnam to "defend American free speech". That isn't why he was in Vietnam. He was in Vietnam for many of the same reasons US troops are now in Iraq, Afganistan, et al. And that is to pacify a nation our current band of merry plutocrats have made part of their global reach strategy. Military service in Vietnam, like military service in Iraq and Afganistan, doesn't have anything to do with "defending American freedom". You see, that is the sort of pandering lies the left keeps telling itself these days. That if you can't beat the patriotism cult of plutocrats, you must appear to join them. Which all those Kerry voters did this time. Begrudgingly. To atone for tilting towards Nader in 2000. Predictably, the Chicken Little strategy didn't work out for them! I rather like the idea of building one's own military industrial complex though. However, if a genius like Leonardo could only get the plans on the drawing board, how would I, a mental midget by comparison, fare? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challenge to the whiners From: Little Hawk Date: 28 Jan 05 - 11:59 AM You have described exactly why American soldiers go where they go, Rad... It certainly is not to defend free speech! LOL! (Oh, they may think that's why they're there...I believe a lot of German soldiers thought they were defending Christendom, God, and western civilization, for instance, back in 1939-45.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challenge to the whiners From: GUEST,RS Date: 28 Jan 05 - 12:40 PM It's all about the platitudes... Q. How many Bush administration officials does it take to screw in a light bulb? A. None. There is nothing wrong with the light bulb; its conditions are improving every day. Any reports of its lack of incandescence are a delusional spin from the liberal media. That light bulb has served honorably, and anything you say undermines the lighting effect. Why do you hate freedom? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Challenge to the whiners From: Amos Date: 28 Jan 05 - 12:51 PM RS: ROTFLMA A |