BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales

Subject: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,smiler
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 03:08 PM

May I be first to register my pleasure at the banning of Foxhunting to take effect this Friday in England and Wales.

Maybe the morons will find something more constructive to do at weekends, instead of terrorising our wildlife.

It was never about class, and always about cruelty.

This is one of the only things Blair's government has got right.

Tally ho! Ha ha

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 03:16 PM

I don't care either way, but to say it wasn't about class is crap. Class is what the Labour Party new or old is all about.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 03:16 PM

I suspect this will eventually go the way of prohibition

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 03:23 PM

It certainly isn't a class thing - it's a " what is right and moral thing". And, don't forget, all the working-class equivalents - dog/cock fighting - were banned years ago!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: *Laura*
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 03:24 PM

What was never about class Smiler? Hunting, or the decision to ban it?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: gnu
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 03:41 PM

It's not hunting. It's a cruel chase in which an animal is subjected to psycological terror and physical torture. Proper hunting allows neither.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,smiler
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 03:46 PM

Both Laura.

As tunesmith says, working class forms of animal cruelty were banned a long time ago.

It is a moral thing. Pain and terror transcend both class and species.

While I am pleased that their wretched way of life is dismantled and have no sympathy for them,
I am over the moon, that our wildlife is being afforded a protection, it has never had before.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 03:49 PM

"Proper hunting allows neither."

What would white people know about proper hunting!

BS! Ban it all

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 03:52 PM

Just wait till rabies becomes rampant in the UK, which it will the bigger the fox population becomes. I expect people will prefer the survival of foxes over that of their bird killing cats. Their children will also come second of course. The whole thing stinks of class prejudice and hypocrisy.

Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 03:59 PM

"wait till rabies becomes rampant in the UK"

How could the rest of the world tell the difference....

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: gnu
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 03:59 PM

CH... now, what would a Viking do without meat? Ban all swords I say.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: *Laura*
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 04:01 PM

But hunting only accounts for about 6% of fox deaths or something like that. What about all the foxes killed in towns and cities each year?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Layah
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 04:02 PM

Out of curiosity, CH, what color of skin makes you know something about hunting? Is this innate knowledge, goes along with having said color of skin?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,smiler
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 04:04 PM

Well you've just demolished the argument that it was done for fox control Laura.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,ged
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 04:05 PM

Laura, dogs and cats are killed on the roads every day. Should we take up ripping them apart while they are still alive so as to lessen the chances of them ending us as road kill?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 04:05 PM

I get my meat from the grocery store... the same as 99% of the white people in the world... (The onther 1% most likely gets it out of a dumpster or from garbage bags after fat lazy slobs like the rest of us are 'done' with it)

And sure... I love the taste of game... and I've hunted... and I don't care what 'hunters' say... it's cruel... especially given how unlikely the "Instant Kill Shot" is...

So if it's cruelty yer looking to ban, better ban it all... And ya'd better ban 95% of human-to-human contact while yer at it....

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: *Laura*
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 04:07 PM

Oi - don't start on me. I'm only asking. Jeez.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: gnu
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 04:17 PM

CH... apparently, you're not much of a hunter. And, until you stop eating meat, you are worse than a poor hunter.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,smiler
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 04:20 PM

Sorry Laura.

You asked some valid questions. Didn't mean to start on you.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,ged
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 04:34 PM

Sorry Laura. Are you still hoping to get in a kill before the ban or have you gone off that idea now?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: *Laura*
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 04:41 PM

Time's kinda run out now.
Ahh I don't know - I never would have thought about it if it hadn't been banned. I just, I dunno - I wanted to have the chance to make the choice at some point in my life. Never will now so that's why I was so against it.

And it's true anyway - far far more foxes are killed each year in the towns and cities than by hunts, and not by cars, but by people who kill them because they are a pest.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 04:42 PM

I don't have to hunt... I pay other people to raise, slaughter and deliver meat to me... Division of labour... It's one of the joys of NOT living in the middle ages anymore...

Or do you raise your own cotton to make clothing from... and plant, and harvest all your own veggies? I suppose you mined, processed, manufactured and assembled all the bits that went into that PC you're on too eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: gnu
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 04:44 PM

Well, they're going to have more to kill now. However, hopefully, it'll be much more humane.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: *Laura*
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 04:45 PM

Yes, hopefully.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: gnu
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 04:54 PM

CH... Shall we agree to disagree ? I beg your forgiveness for the slight. It was in poor taste and unwarranted. I'll blame my rash behaviour to the mead. I shall respect your right to BBQ if you will respect mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 04:55 PM

The hunt ban is an aweful piece of partisan, class based legislation, that hopefully will be repealed as soon as possible. This may be an insult to the convention that goverment do not reverse each others legislation, but that is is just part of the mainly unwritten consitution of Britan, that has been abused in almost every way by the 'new' Labour goverment by 1997.

Bunnahbhain

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 05:02 PM

"CH... Shall we agree to disagree ?"

We can even just flat out disagree Gnu... tain't no thing, but a chicken wing, mate...

What a dull world it'd be if we all felt exactly the same about everything all the time eh....

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 06:33 PM

I'm thrilled at the ban and desolate that the police appear to have given the bastards permission to carry on, as they don't want to make the effort to stop them. This will only lead to acts against the hunters by frustrated opponents who see the law flouted. Once we get to the point that you choose which laws you abide by we're all f...d

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 08:06 PM

"...far far more foxes are killed each year in the towns and cities than by hunts, and not by cars, but by people who kill them because they are a pest."

Where'd you get that statistic, Laura? Maybe it's true, but all I know is, foxes are pretty popular in Harlow - people even feed them. More often than not, if I'm out late coming home from a session or something, I'll see the odd fox strolling around looking pretty relaxed. If anybody is busy killing them they keep very quiet about it, wisely.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,milk monitor
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 08:16 PM

http://www.hounslow.gov.uk/home/a-z_services/u/urbanfoxespestcontrol.htm

if this link works...it is just one borough's view on killing urban foxes, and it kind of says they don't?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 12:59 AM

Now that Dido, Bendigo and the rest of them hounds have been made redundant, will the British government put them on a pension for life?

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 04:02 AM

More foxes are killed in towns and cities simply because that is where more of them now live. If fox hunting was done purely as a way of controlling the fox population (the argument used for not banning it a century ago along with cock fights and badger baiting), then why haven't I seen the Quorn or Cattistock hunts riding down my road?

We have foxes near us. They are a nuisance if you don't put your rubbish in bins, or if they can get into your garden and scent. There is at least one lady in my block who leaves food for them, they regularly patrol my daughter's school, I have to be careful driving after midnight because there is more likely to be a fox in the road than a cat or a dog. But they are not a big problem. They inhabit the Northern Outfall Sewer and do a pretty good job of keeping the rats under control and scavenging the local area for scraps that attract more rats.

It also means that the children who live in this area have seen a real 'wild' animal... I was brought up in the country with a hunting community, and never saw a *live* fox until I was 18.

Personally I am glad that this activity has been banned. Regardless of what people say, it IS class related - only the well off or landed gentry can afford the money and space to keep the 2-3 horses per person each hunt requires, or the kennelling that 30-40 hounds require. And that's before we start on the riding habits, riding lessons, vets' bills, hospital bills and the social expenses that are associated with hunting.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: mooman
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 04:20 AM

And good riddance to that hideous and cruel anachronism. It should have been banned years ago and may it never return.

Peace

moo (wearing both biologist's and plain sentient being's hats)

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 04:22 AM

Just wait till rabies becomes rampant in the UK, which it will the bigger the fox population becomes.

So the reason we don't have rabies in the UK is because of the tiny percentage of foxes killed by the hunt? Wow! I never knew that. I thought is was more to do with us being an island and having strict controls on the import of animals? You learn something new everday...

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 04:50 AM

McGrath,
       The statistics concerning fox road deaths were read out by Germaine Greer on Channel recently and are as follows:- foxes killed by hunting per year = 25,000. Foxes killed on the roads each year = 100,000.
                         Tally ho!
                           el ted
                        pro - hunting.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 05:04 AM

Well DtG it's true that it works at the moment, but when it eventually gets here [and it will] foxes will be the first casualty. Not through the disease but through being killed by all possible means, by order of HMG to slow the spread of the disease. That will be followed by stray or feral cats, and all animals in rescue kennels etc. That of course will lead to a long thread on Mudcat protesting about animals being deprived of the right to be rabid.
Giok
pro personal freedoms

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,eric the red
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 07:50 AM

The Devonshire Constabulary [ the largest number of hunts in England ] have allready said they have no intention of policing this ban, this is tantamount to telling the red coat brigade it is OK to break the law if they don't agree with it.

Hunters trip themselves up everytime they open their gobs, firstly they say hunting is the only effective way of controlling the fox population and the go on to say they only kill a few foxes.

Why do these detestable people think they have a right to chose which laws the want to obey or not.


eric

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,Giok
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 08:49 AM

Maybe they think they're MPs eric!
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 11:01 AM

Disease is one of the the natural ways natural populations of wild animals are controlled.

Whatever happens from now one - perhaps we can finally stop hunting 'red herring's and pretending that hunting with hounds ever had anything to do with controling fox numbers?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 12:04 PM

So the reason we don't have rabies in the UK is because of the tiny percentage of foxes killed by the hunt? Wow! I never knew that. I thought is was more to do with us being an island and having strict controls on the import of animals? You learn something new everday...

Nice one Dave

*Smiles*

I think the position of some of our senior police on this matter does have serious implications. We seem to heading to be heading for a situation where those who are empowered only to enforce legislation fairly - appear to think they have a choice about which ones to enforce to the very letter and which to ignore.

It is right that these officers should be listened to before the law is passed. But after this - and what ever their views - good or bad - it is the law and it is their job to esure that it is enforced.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 01:15 PM

I think the ban is a great thing. It'll send a lot of English fox-hunters to Ireland where it's still legal, and they'll spend a lot of English money while they're there. God knows the Irish need the money. And the French and Italians stand to make a bundle as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 01:37 PM

Well terminal smugness is a sad thing, as people just sit back and say 'It won't happen to us' I did not say that rabies was to be found on the UK mainland as far as we know, what I did say, and I will say it again, RABIES WILL COME TO THE UK, it is already endemic across the channel, and now that UK dogs can go abroad using a 'Pet Passport' it will come to the UK. The rules and regs for the use and obtaining of the 'Pet Passport' are very stringent, but it isn't infallible.
What do anti hunt people do when they get mice or rats in their
house?
I'm sure the UK police have enough to do without trying to enforce unnecessary, and pointless laws.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 01:58 PM

If the majority of the population agree with it, it may not be necessary,but it makes more people satisfies than dis-satisfied. Time for a few people to find a new hobby?

And 1000's of cats and dogs are killed on the roads daily, should we take up the slaughter of them too? Following a very shaky logic.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 02:05 PM

"What do anti hunt people do when they get mice or rats in their
house?"

Personally? Uh, kill them. With a cat, or a trap, or a well-aimed missile of some sort...but i don't kill them uneccessarily, nor do i take any pleasure in it.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 02:13 PM

Whatever happens from now one - perhaps we can finally stop hunting 'red herring's and pretending that hunting with hounds ever had anything to do with controling fox numbers?

It looks as if the same people are going to continue to meet - dress-up as usual to ride all over the country side but now claim it is to simply exercise their dogs.

Whether they do this or follow a drag-line scent trail - that is fine by me (and the law). Everyone can see that a lot of pleasure can be obtained by this and very few would wish to prevent it. I may even saddle-up and join them........

So what is all the fuss about now about?

If these 'hunters' still say they intend to hunt and kill foxes and they still do indulge in this - I would expect the law to be enforced. For I am sure there will be lots present to record the identity of the participants and supply this evidence to the police.

The so-called pro fox hunting lobby are going to have to decide when they meet - if they are proudly and openly going to continue to defy the law and hunt and kill foxes with hounds or if they are going to do this but hide behind the lie that they are doing something else.

To now attend such a hunt but pretend to be obeying the law to avoid the consequences of breaking it - would not seem to be much of an honourable protest action. Perhaps people prepared to do this are not honourable people?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 02:18 PM

What do pro hunt people do when they get mice or rats in their
house?

Why they saddle up their trusty hunter, put on their red coats and 'Tally-Ho' all over their furniture?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 03:11 PM

It won't be long till some enterprising anti fox hunting campaigner, uses a road kill fox to try and frame some poor fox hunt. This is because they are not really out to stop fox hunting, they are out to piss off what they regard as a load of toffs. Or I could be wrong, after all it's got nothing to do with class has it?
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 03:18 PM

Probably. From personal experience, all the fox hunters i've met have been arrogant, over-priviliged, self-righteous w**ks. All the anti fox hunting campaigners i've met have been exactly the same, only more self-righteous... *sigh*...can't win, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 03:21 PM

A generalisation BI, but a very agreeable one ;~)
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 03:29 PM

See, i'm not prejudiced, i hate everyone equally.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: gnu
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 05:08 PM

I have a question. Do farmers have the right to keep small calibre rifles and use same to dispatch varmints ? In this case, of course, foxes ?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Raedwulf
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 05:54 PM

Giok - where is the class prejudice? *You* seem determined to introduce class at every twist of the argument. *You* seem to be determined to defend hunting (despite the fact that you claim you "don't care either way"). *You* keep raising the spectre of rabies...

"when it eventually gets here [and it will] foxes will be the first casualty"

"I did not say that rabies was to be found on the UK mainland as far as we know, what I did say, and I will say it again, RABIES WILL COME TO THE UK, it is already endemic across the channel, and now that UK dogs can go abroad using a 'Pet Passport' it will come to the UK"

Funnily enough, rabies has, more or less, always been endemic across the Channel, & never has been here.

What you're actually saying is that rabies will be spread because of pet passports. So the less dogs around, the less likelihood of rabies spreading, eh? So bannning hunting will be a good thing. There'll be less dogs. And, I would have thought, hunting dogs are more likely to pick up a random infection than a pampered pet pooch...

Never mind... Ach! I cannae be arsed, mon! Giok, your arguments are terribly pro-, in all the most unacceptable senses of the phrase. The hunters claim that they control foxes (& yet at least 4 times more killed on the roads... we should hunt foxes with cars, then?). Then they claim that they "conserve" the countryside (in other words, we breed foxes & so there are too many of them. Ergo! We must hunt.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 06:33 PM

It isnt a class thing. Those who enjoy killing animals are unable to accept that some people dont enjoy killing animals.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 06:45 PM

Well I've never got into the quoting figures game because statistics are difficult to prove, and are used by both sides to prove opposing viewpoints. I am pro choice not pro hunting in particular, I just can't see why so much angst is expended on such an unimportant subject, when there are more important issues to worry about. The general namby pamby viewpoint that has become prevalent pisses me off, I heard someone say the other day that winning was bad because it involved somebody else losing. Surprise surprise, where are these wimps and bleeding hearts coming from, why don't they get real? Nearly all the single issue causes I can think of involve depriving people who have a bit of money enjoying themselves, ban 4x4s from London etc.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Lanfranc
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 07:04 PM

Class-based prejudice and puerile anthropomorphism raised the issue of an irrelevant anachronism to the status of a pseudo national crusade and wasted more Parliamentary time than any other recent legislation.

The bunny-huggers have had their way; Blair might get a few extra votes but we're still involved in a pointless war, the Police still prosecute more motorists than muggers, burglars or rapists, there are still families living on the brink of starvation in 21st Century Britain and plans are well advanced to concrete over most of southern England. Never mind, we've saved the fox!

What Pyrhhic victory is this?

Now, for fox sake shut up about it!

Alan
(Waiting for the next freedom to be eroded)

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 07:11 PM

Quite agree Lanfranc. The time delay and parliamentary hours spent are scandalous. Should have been passed years ago. Nine minutes into the ban and foxes all over the UK are partying. Ho Tally .

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: gnu
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 07:16 PM

AHEM! AGAIN, I have a question. Do farmers have the right to keep small calibre rifles and use same to dispatch varmints ? In this case, of course, foxes ?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 07:18 PM

Funny how the cry for freedom is so selective. All the pro hunters are saying is "leave me alone". Sorry folks, but it's the law now and I campaigned to get this government elected for just that. It may seem an unimportant issue to you, but to the majority, it is of great importance. Today we are a more civilised country. We have actually moved a little bit forward! Now we have to see the law enforced. However, I agree, the police will spend most of their time raising revenue from drivers.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: gnu
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 07:42 PM

"Hunting", not chasing foxes with dogs and horses, is what you said... "Hunting." Hunting is not cruel in any way, shape, or form. If you do not understand this, you do not understand hunting and should not be allowed to "vote" on that which you do not understand. By the way, mob rule is not democratic.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Peace
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 08:07 PM

Stats

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 08:16 PM

Just wait until it's your minority who are persecuted by parliment...

Bunnahabhain.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 08:19 PM

Being ambivalent about hunting the thing I find annoying is the distinct class division with reference toi "Toffs" and "Landed Gentry" without reference to the office workers, shop assistants, and the labourers who hunt. Several labour M.P.'s have openly stated that "it was a class thing".
In answer to some of the questions above:
LTS: A relation of mine hunts, my brother-in-law follows a Premier Divisioon football team. It costs him more to watch football than my relative needs to spend on her horses!
RAEDWULF: In the late 60's/early 70@s there was an outbreak of rabies near Camberley in Surrey. ALL wildlife, including stray cats, was shot and incinerated by a group of Ministry-appointed Guns. Not a thing was left alive for several miles around the outbreak. Do we really want that again?
GNU: Small-calibre rifles are NOT permitted unless the requisite firearms certificate has ben obtained from the police - not an easy thing to obtain as requirements are very strict. As you no doubt appreciate, a shotgun, unless at close range and with heavy shot, is useless against foxes.
Manner of dess of any person riding to hounds is covered by convention, in the same way as the dress for golf, football, rock-climbing or subaqua sports.
Clothing is developed for each and every occasion, social or sport, and to deride someone for their mode of dress shows only the ignorance of the derider.
Regarding statistics, remember that it is safer to cross the road while not wearing shoes than when wearing them, as statistics show that the incidence of people injured while not wearing shoes when crossing the road is very small.
Can we now call for a ban on footbaLL, a sport where the participants try to injure each other and the supporters cause havoc in town centres and injure and kill each other.
This is not a class thing, but after all, football is played mainly only by the working classes!

Colyn

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: kendall
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 09:22 PM

I wonder why we in America don't have a fox problem that requires us to run them down with dogs and watch them being torn to pieces while still alive?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: HuwG
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 09:39 PM

I have no particular feelings either way on the matter of hunting itself. However, I do think that the energy expended on the debate is largely wasted.

(I live in a small industrial town. My younger brother does live in the countryside, and while he himself doesn't like the idea of killing anything for sport, likes even less the idea of faddist townies whose background is in service industries, imposing their artificial values on people who try and make a living from the countryside.)

There are a number of issues which affect those living in the British countryside, and which are not being properly addressed by the Government, or indeed any of the political parties. The price paid to farmers for agricultural produce is being driven steadily lower by supermarket chains who enjoy almost monopoly rights over its distribution, to far below the point where the farmer can make any sort of profit or even living, without subsidy. Inflation of housing prices is driving the cost of owning or even renting property in the countryside beyond the means of many local people, especially the young. And yet the debates about the countryside have for years revolved around the single and largely irrelevant issue of hunting. It is as if the Reformation of the Church with all its implications for the salvation of man's soul, was put on hold while the question of the number of angels which can dance on the head of a pin was resolved.

No less a person than Germaine Greer, that patron saint of the radical and feminine, stated in a recent programme on Channel 4, her view that compared to the concentration-camp conditions in which many animals for human consumption are reared and transported, the number of foxes killed by hunts and even their claimed suffering is insignificant.

Hunting with dogs might now be illegal, but I can foresee that there will be endless attempts in Parliament and in the courts to repeal the ban, or create loopholes in it, or seek compensation for loss of income and amenities and so on. I think it will take the best part of a decade before the debate finally subsides, only to resurface when New Labour finally goes out of office.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 04:33 AM

gnu,
    Farmers don't have a "right" to own small calibre rifle. You have to apply for a firearms certificate, which in these touchy - feely days, is next to impossible to obtain.
    In my years on a farm we shot most of the foxes at harvest time with shotguns, because -

a) A shotgun certificate is much easier to get than a firearms certificate.
b) A moving target like a fox is bloody hard to hit with a single shot rifle, the spread of shot from a half choke shotgun barrel is much more effective.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: mooman
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 04:52 AM

Well, actually, rabies is endemic in the UK with a few cases found in Daubenton's bats and possibly other bat species. But this species does not generally roost in homes and cases of people being bitten by them are very rare.

Rabies is not endemic in the part of Belgium in which I live although there is endemic rabies in the Southern Ardennes.

With the measures currently in place and the action taken when a rare case is detected, I think it unlikely rabies will become endemic in the UK.

So I don't think the rabies argument is particularly valid for the current fox population.

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 05:24 AM

No less a person than Germaine Greer, that patron saint of the radical and feminine, stated in a recent programme on Channel 4, her view that compared to the concentration-camp conditions in which many animals for human consumption are reared and transported, the number of foxes killed by hunts and even their claimed suffering is insignificant.

If that is was she said and the words used - then it shows that not having any does mean that you can't talk 'B*****s'.

Such comparisons do not help prevent all suffering - they make the person saying them appear to be compasionate and informed but just result in excusing or making some suffering appear to be acceptable.

No unecessary (i.e' preventable) suffering is ever acceptable and never 'insignificant' - especially to those suffering.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 05:42 AM

Manner of dess of any person riding to hounds is covered by convention, in the same way as the dress for golf, football, rock-climbing or subaqua sports. Clothing is developed for each and every occasion, social or sport, and to deride someone for their mode of dress shows only the ignorance of the derider.

It simply is a fact that some members of the hunt do dress in red coats and this choice of dress need not be defended. Dress may define and identify these people - but I do not deride them for their manner of dress.....but their conduct.

I was reading (in the Radio Times) the views of a transvestite (Turner Prize-winning artist Grayson Perry) in a programme called Why Men Wear Frocks.

He demonstrated parallels between transvestites and leather-clad bikers - 'dressing to impress other men, wearing costumes made of unfamiliar material; risking persoanl injury'........

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,eric the red
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 07:35 AM

Bunnawhatsisface talks like a pillock, if he doesn't understand the English political process it's time he did, it's called DEMOCRACY, our duly elected parliament has passed a LAW banning hunting with dogs, do you get it now, paliament is elected by WE THE PEOPLE.

If you don't like it, the way to change it is through the ballot box not by breaking the law.

If I steal something from Lord Muck and Sir Whatsisface, not liking the law is no defence.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 08:07 AM

"the Police still prosecute more motorists than muggers, burglars or rapists" - that's really a bit daft, Alan.

There are a great many more motorists than there are muggers burglars or rapists, and some of us break very sensible laws from time to time; and together we kill and maim far more people than all the muggers rapists and burglars put together.

Battery farming is far worse than foxhunting? Of course it is, and I hope that something can be done to stop that repulsive activity. I quite agree that should have been a higher priority than hunting-to-kill with dogs.

I suspect that the numbers of people taking part in illegal hunts will fall off rapidly, once they realise that they aren't going to have any cover for insurance when they fall off a horse, or when they damage some property in the course of a hunt.

On the other hand I can quite envisage drag hunting actually expanding - there are a fair number of people around who might like the idea of dressing up and galloping around the country after the hounds, if the day wasn't going to be ruined by some wild creature being pulled apart, and some revolting ritual in which children were "blooded".

As for the possibility which has been suggested about drag hunts turning into "real" hunts "by accident", there's a pertinent letter about that in today's Guardian, by a bloke from Middlesex called Crispin Murray - "...Simply bring the pack hounds into line with other dangerous dog breeds and legislate that they should wear muzzles whenever they are outside in the open air..."

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,Giok 99
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 08:42 AM

Ah Eric, they had to bypass the democratic process to get it into law, or is that OK if it's something you agree with. Now if they'd done that with the PEL legislation you and others would be saying, 'Democracy, what democracy'
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 08:54 AM

How many times does a piece of legislation need to be included in an electoral manifesto and repeately supported by massive majorities in the elected chamber before that counts as "the democratic process", Giok99? (None of which happened in the case of the cockup about music licences.)

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,eric the red
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 09:42 AM

Ah Giok do you mean it's only undemocratic when a Labour government uses it and not the Conservatives ?

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,eric the red
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 09:49 AM

And really Giok, your opinion makes not the slightest difference, it's still the law of the land and quite rightly so.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,Giok 99
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 09:53 AM

Was banning fox hunting included in the Labour [in name only] party manifesto? I think you'll find it wasn't!
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: *Laura*
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 10:02 AM

Well everyone seems to have realised that this law was written with loads of loopholes etc... but just to point something out,
you are now breaking the law if your three pet labradors chase after a rabbit while out on a walk. Nice one. hmmmm.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Stu
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 10:15 AM

If you are a vegan or fruitarian who opposes the foxhunting ban, then this doesn't apply to you.

I wish people would stop using animal welfare as an argument in favour of the foxhunting ban (and what other argument is there?). If the welfare of animals is really at the heart of this ban, then the hypocrites who drafted and support this bill are the real criminals.

Ever eat a sausage? Burgers? Cheese? Eggs? Bacon? etc etc. Most of this meat or dairy animals are reared using intensive farming techniques where the welfare of the animal is of secondary importance. Anyone who eats any sort of dairy or meat product is going to be eating intensively farmed product, and that adds to the misery of each animal our society is keeping in inhumane conditions.

Like many here, I try to source my meat from ethical sources (many butchers do this now) where the animals raised had a good quality of life, but I am not under the illusion I avoid eating these products.

How about protesting about factory farms instead of chasing a few toffs on horseback, and doing something genuinely useful with your energy?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 11:15 AM

It could be just based on the good old class envy system too!!
Giok ¦¬]

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 12:44 PM

In several previous Labour manifestos there had been a firm promise to ban hunting. (Here is a site with an archive of all of them, dating back to 1900.)

The 2001 one was more waffly, and said: "The House of Commons elected in 1997 made clear its wish to ban fox-hunting. The House of Lords took a different view (and reform has been blocked). Such issues are rightly a matter for a free vote and we will give the new House of commons an early opportunity to express its view. We will then enable Parliament to reach a conclusion on this issue. If the issue continues to be blocked we will look at how the disagreement can be resolved."

That strikes me as a pretty clear implication that opponents of hunting with dogs could vote Labour in a confident expectation of getting a ban this time.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 12:50 PM

How about protesting about factory farms instead of chasing a few toffs on horseback, and doing something genuinely useful with your energy

Can we please stop with these needless comparisons? - All these practices should be addressed and they are not mutually exclusive.

And from my experience - many who are actively anti-hunt are also active in protests about farming practices and many similar issues. Now that hunting with dogs is banned - there should be no need for these folk to chase a few toffs on horseback - who are in turn - chasing foxes with dogs. They should now be able to leave that to the police.

Hunting with dogs - is (or should be) just one off of a very long list...........

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 01:00 PM

because factory farming and live animal export create needless suffering.
Wild foxes have short lives. A fox spared by the hunt will still suffer a dreadful death, and soon. It is just that no one will see it.
Beatrix Potter is fiction.
Anti hunt is a useful distraction from the profitable causes of real suffering.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: EagleWing
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 01:12 PM

"The hunt ban is an aweful piece of partisan, class based legislation, that hopefully will be repealed as soon as possible. This may be an insult to the convention that goverment do not reverse each others legislation, but that is is just part of the mainly unwritten consitution of Britan, that has been abused in almost every way by the 'new' Labour goverment by 1997."

In order to ensure that the repeal of this act is not partisan, we must ensure that badger baiting, dog fighting, bear baiting and cock fighting are all made legal again. Bare knuckle fighting should become an Olympic sport just to keep everything fair and non-partisan.

Frank L.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: EagleWing
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 01:22 PM

"What do anti hunt people do when they get mice or rats in their
house?"

Well, personally I put on a special pink coat and round up the mice using a pack of specially trained cats.

Then I personally watch ,along with all my neighbours, the cats rip the mice to pieces. As a special treat, if there are any children around who haven't watched this before I get a mouses tail covered in blood and wipe it around the kids' faces.

Was that the answer you were looking for?

Frank L.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 01:24 PM

Anti hunt is a useful distraction from the profitable causes of real suffering.

Just anti hunt? Well now both sides should be able to concentrate on preventing real suffering.

I am sure that all of the pro-hunting lobby who are not very concerned about the suffering of the foxes they chase and who have presented us with all these better causes for our attention (issues apprently with real suffering) - will all now be spending their energy in joining us in campaigns to prevent all of this needless suffering.

The energy and money that the Countryside Alliance has spent on legal action - would go a long way in other campaigns to prevent real suffering.

Perhaps if the pro hunt lobby can finally accept that the law of the land applies to them also - all sides can stop scoring points off of each other and work together on the many remaining issues.

All pain is real pain.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: EagleWing
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 01:26 PM

Or I could be wrong, after all it's got nothing to do with class has it?

Personally I don't give a damn whether it's about class. What it is about is bloodthirsty cruelty, and that I do give a damn about.

Frank L.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 01:31 PM

You'll be starting a campaign to ban the halal method of slaughtering animals then?
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: EagleWing
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 01:33 PM

"I wonder why we in America don't have a fox problem that requires us to run them down with dogs and watch them being torn to pieces while still alive? "

Because America is abroad, Kendall, and therefore different. :-)

Frank L.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 01:40 PM

Paradoxically, the few hunting people I know are concerned about wild life preservation, and humane husbandry. They do not see a contradiction.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 01:44 PM

Abroad? So? Americans don't do this kind of cruelty. They kill Muslims instead.

Look, you supporters of fox "hunting" can drag in all the diversions and red herrings you want to; the bottom line is; Fox hunting is unnecessary, barbaric and beneath the dignity of a civilized society.

Trying to avoid the issue by talking about slaughter houses and even fishing is nothing but a red herring. Face the issue squarly and you must admit it. Animal cruelty in general is another issue altogether, and should be addressed as such.
Don't give us that rubbish that because we eat5 meat fox hunting is ok. That's just plain silly.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: EagleWing
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 01:47 PM

You'll be starting a campaign to ban the halal method of slaughtering animals then?

If it can be proved that it is a crueller method than others. I have heard a rabbi giving a particularly convincing argument that the kosha method is less cruel than normal slaughter house methods. I suspect that halal and kosha methods are similar. But I wouldn't know. I'm pretty certain than neither method is done for fun by people who actually enjoy seeing animals suffer.

Frank L.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,Ooh-aah2
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 01:47 PM

To say that hunting should be banned because an overwhelming number of people oppose it is bollocks, and it is bollocks precisely because Britain is a democratic country. Once, the overwhelming majority of people did not want homosexual people to allowed to make love, or people to be able to divorce no matter how much they hated one another, or people to be allowed to worship what they want, and wished (probaly still wish) to enforce the death penalty. In a true democracy the majority are not allowed to enforce their will on the lives of a minority. This indefensible but wild, atavistic and thrilling sport is in danger while the massive, revolting everyday exploitation of animals in battery conditions quietly continues. It is a sad day, but not hopeless because English country people seem to be showing the guts and resilience that still makes me glad to be English after 27 years in Australia.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: EagleWing
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 01:50 PM

"because factory farming and live animal export create needless suffering."

I find myself wondering how many factory farmers are to be numbered among the anti-hunt brigade.

Contrariwise, how many factory farmers are also fox-hunters?

Don't know the answer. Just a thought.

Frank L.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: kendall
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 01:51 PM

Are you saying it is a sad day that toffs will no longer be allowed to engage in cruelty that is even beneath animals?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: EagleWing
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 01:53 PM

GUEST: "Abroad? So? Americans don't do this kind of cruelty. They kill Muslims instead."

GUEST: If you saw the word "abroad" you ought also to have seen the smiley. I was just tweaking Kendall's beard a bit and trying to lighten the whole thing up a bit. You can do that among friends, and I count Kendall as a friend though I've only met him once.

Frank L.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: HuwG
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 02:02 PM

With the greatest respect to The Shambles:

"Can we please stop with these needless comparisons? - All these practices should be addressed and they are not mutually exclusive"

Unfortunately, when it comes to a matter of Parliamentary time, it could be argued that they are mutually exclusive. There have been endless debates over hunting which have pre-empted time whch could be used for arguably more useful debate in the House of Commons, or legislation. I regret that this situation will probably continue, as just about every Conservative-launched debate or Private Member's Bill for the foreseeable future will attempt to repeal the ban.

To the best of my knowledge, none of the Parties has any coherent policy on countryside issues. With a General Election looming, there will be little time to formulate any before the political arena descends into a pointless debate about Al Qaida and the need to lock up any dusky-hued person attempting to enter the country.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 02:24 PM

I may be wrong, but I don't think there is much evidence that the supporters of hunting have been very active in trying to get battery farming abolished.

I hope that the focus of attention can now turn to trying to achieve that. Any chance that a pledge to do that might be in any of the parties' election manifestos?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 02:30 PM

I take it all you anti hunt people are in favour of this piece of single issue political terrorism! Click!!
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: kendall
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 02:36 PM

Why would you think that, Giok? I have no more use for ghouls than I have for people who inflict cruelty on helpless animals. However, I can't speak for others who are anti cruelty. (Notice, I didn't say anti hunt)

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 02:50 PM

The ban on the hunting of foxes using hounds is not a class matter.

It is totally irrelevant that fox-hunting (predominantly an upper-class sport) has been banned, whilst fishing (where the victim is not even finished off, but released to be tortured again) has not


Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 03:00 PM

Fishing is a hobby carried out by very posh people indeed.

Dog fighting and cock-fighting have traditionally been done by poor people. That hasn't kept it legal.

Hare-coursing is pretty working-class too, and that's been banned.

All in all, seeing this as particularly about class doesn't really add up.

..........................................

And that last crack by Giok was really rather silly, because he knows perfectly well that the episode he linked too is one that almost all people who are concerned about animal cruelty are totally opposed to.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,Puck
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 03:05 PM

The government have wasted too much time and money on this bullshit. They should get on with some real work Ask the people in 'cardboard city' what they think, and they will tell you that there are more foxes in cities biting the arses of street sleepers than any where else. Its like environmental vermin and pest controllers refer to sea gulls as 'land gulls' because they have easier pickings on landfill sites and city streets picking up the fast food leftovers off our streets, and dont seek their food at sea anymore. Mark my words they'll be competing with the foxes and pecking extras arse holes in cardboard city dwellers shortly.
Foxhunting,,,bah! there are far more important issues to use government time for than this bullshit

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,milk monitor
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 03:11 PM

If the people who enjoyed seeing foxes ripped apart had any morals we wouldn't have needed to spend any time or money on banning it.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 04:27 PM

Kevin it is relevant inasmuch as it is a lunatic fringe that is involved, and the same is true to a lesser extent regarding fox hunting. As for fishing it is the largest participant sport in the UK, and the 'Game Fishing' section which is what I think you may be referring to when describing it as a posh pursuit is a mere fraction of those who partake of the sport. I don't think that many of the peolple you see lined up along canal banks, and round lakes at numbered pegs fishing in competions are alumni of Oxford or Cambridge universities. It is and always has been a predominantly working mans sport.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: *Laura*
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 04:33 PM

So people are going to start on shooting and fishing now. *sigh*
Although I am a fan of neither - I think the government are hardly likely to ban either of these after all the trouble they've had with the hunting act.

Some friends of ours were recently at an anglers meeting, when 'the antis' barged in kicking over chairs and shouting "You'll be next!" - charming!

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: kendall
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 04:39 PM

One trip we made to the area south of Burmuda on weather patrol, some of the crew caught a shark with a chunk of balogna as bait. The idiots cut it open, gutted it, then threw it back and hove the bait and line overboard. That same shark hit the bait AGAIN! So much for fish and pain.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 05:47 PM

Unfortunately, when it comes to a matter of Parliamentary time, it could be argued that they are mutually exclusive. There have been endless debates over hunting which have pre-empted time whch could be used for arguably more useful debate in the House of Commons, or legislation. I regret that this situation will probably continue, as just about every Conservative-launched debate or Private Member's Bill for the foreseeable future will attempt to repeal the ban.

With respect - I think not even when it comes to Paliamentary time. There is good work being undertaken even there to improve farming practice and animal tranport and many other things. Not enough and nothing on the scale of the hunting with dogs issue nor anything like the same publicity being given to it. But this is up to us to get our MPs moving on these issues.

But to be fair - most of this energy has rather been from a determined minority lobby who have been prepared to use anyone and every tactic - in order to resist moves against needless cruelty in sport. A sport that they should have ended themselves years ago.

That this political struggle for the right to inflict needless cruelty upon animals for pleasure - still even now continues to occupy so much time, money and energy - when there are so many other important issues to be addressed - demonstrates that this struggle is really about something else entirely. I feel that that concerns for these other issues being expressed by this lobby - are used just as another tactic and are as hollow as they sound.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: gnu
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 06:00 PM

"...needless cruelty ...". My point exactly. Proper hunting imposes no cruelty.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Peace
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 06:02 PM

I wonder how the foxes would vote?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 06:09 PM

Funny enough we saw Mr fox as we got out of the car last night. We told the him that in one hours time - the hounds would not be able to chase him and his family anymore.

The fox replied that it was very grateful.........And we said goodnight.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,Puck
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 08:17 PM

In reply to Shambles and to Brucie, when I drove home from Newport through Llanishen in the suburbs of Cardiff at midnight last night, a fox ambled across the road directly in front of my car and in through the fence and into what I know to be a near neighbour's chicken pen..... Ask the hens how they would vote!

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 08:35 PM

They would vote for your neighbour to get a stronger pen?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 08:42 PM

If your neighbours doesn't bother to make his chicken coop secure against foxes, which isn't particularly hard, he's asking for trouble. Rough on the chickens of course , though not as rough as battery farming methods are.

And as has been pointed out frequently, foxhunting has never been a significant method of reducing fox numbers - in fact the reverse is the case, and the foxhunting fraternity would have done much better to point this out, and to argue that the major effect of foxhunting on overall fox populations was to preserve them.

I believe that a move to draghunts would in fact be likely to increase the number of people involved in hunting, by removing the aspect of the "sport" which puts off a great many people who otherwise might wish to take part. Perhaps that is why there has been resistance to the idea among the hunting fraternity, since perhaps the kind of people wh would be attracted would be the wrong type of people. It might even include the sort of people who have been active hunt saboteurs.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 06:10 AM

Why don't the pro hunting people just for once say why they are pro fox hunting, why can't they admit the real reason is that they love it and a dead fox is the cream on the cake.

They will give us a million excuses but never ever tell the truth.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: *Laura*
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 06:12 AM

I think you'd find most people would say it was just the riding horses/going on long walks around the countryside actually. Maybe only the actual huntsman who cares if they catch the fox or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 06:34 AM

I so Laura, drag hunting would be a perfectly good alternative, the hunters disput this.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: *Laura*
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 06:47 AM

Do they? Oh - well. They're just stupid then.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Tam the man
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 07:27 AM

Good, it's the best thing.

And it is a class thing, I mean how many dustmen or office cleaners do you know go hunting or used to.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: *Laura*
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 08:41 AM

What class would you say farmers were then?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 08:42 AM

Depends on how many Mercs they own.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: *Laura*
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 08:44 AM

real farmers I mean - with proper farms. Not batteries or anything. (y'know - th ones wot come frum round ere and chew straw and wear flat caps)
seriously though...

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 08:46 AM

There aren't very many of those about any more. Real farming is becoming decreasingly economically viable.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: *Laura*
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 08:52 AM

I know a fair few of them. And half of them hunt. (hunted)

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: *Laura*
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 01:29 PM

Latest gossip round these ere parts -
85 horses.
200 people.
1 policeman - munching on the hunt sandwiches and apparently having a very nice time.

*raises an eyebrow* - we shall see.

xLx

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 03:02 PM

What? he didn't spot any money earning motoring offences? What is the country coming to?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: kendall
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 03:03 PM

I don't know how it works in the U.K., but here, if a law is being broken and a cop gets a complaint, he better damn well investigate if he wants to keep his job.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,milk monitor
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 03:13 PM

I wonder if the fox hunters who broke the law today will expect it to protect them in the future if they are burgled/attacked/car stolen/etc etc etc? Or are they only above the law when it suits?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 07:43 PM

Did any of these hunts actually and openly break the law today?

On the TV news - I saw one huntsman holding up a dead fox that they had flushed with the dogs and shot. This is not only supposed to be legal - he was proudly claiming that this method (he was forced into) was more efficient than tearing them apart with hounds - in the number of foxes that could be killed.

If the claim is made that controlling fox numbers was the object of hunting with dogs and this was the reason why the practice was supported by so many angry people - was it done inefficiently by these people - for so many years - on purpose?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,Ms Penelope Rutledge
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 08:11 PM

Ha! Victory has been achieved. I have personally campaigned against this dreadful tradition of fox-hunting all my life, with never a thought that I would not live to see the day it was banned. And now it is. Jolly good!

Winston, of course, is fit to be tied about it. He has utterly no conscience about that sort of thing. Well, too bad.

I am not going to let this good news turn my head regarding that prat, Tony Blair, however. The man is an utter disaster. He was probably just cynically angling for a few votes.

My heart is filled with joy to think that foxes are finally to be left alone to live out their natural lives in peace, instead of being hounded to their deaths by rich, arrogant men in silly costumes.

* PRW-J

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,milk monitor
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 08:11 PM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4279065.stm


Apparently 270 hunts went out today, if what is reported in above link is true. The people on the hunts were very clear about their intentions to flout the law. Although some were not given the opportunity to do so. Not all hunts were followed by anti hunt protestors. They say they have 'evidence' of illegal activity.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 10:53 PM

Excellent comment by Guest Penelope Rutledge about T.B.
Unfortunately her inverse snobbery about "rich, arrogant men in silly costumes" rather depletes her argument.
See my earlier post. There are far more persons of modest means who hunt than ever there are those with a private income.
Regarding the "Antis" monitoring the activities of the Hunts. Perhaps those antis who have never trespassed on private land, assaulted a person or a horse, damaged another's property or otherwise broken the law, whether convicted or otherwise, should stand back and allow others to enjoy themselves.
"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone".
Would it not be a good idea to use some of these antis as the lure for a drag hunt?
Colyn.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 06:15 AM

Perhaps those antis who have never trespassed on private land, assaulted a person or a horse, damaged another's property or otherwise broken the law, whether convicted or otherwise,

That would be me then. There are ways of protesting and sabotaging without breaking the law. Going for a nice long walk in the country, down legal paths and bridleways, across fields with the landowners' permission, whilst dragging a nice bundle of aniseed soaked rags is not against any law and in fact, since the 'Right to Roam' act, is even easier to do!

I'm all for people enjoying themselves, but not for the sake of cruelty or willful damage.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: kendall
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 07:57 AM

I'm a man of modest means and I can't afford to keep a horse or a pack of dogs. Pardon the pun, but that dog won't hunt.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 09:19 AM

Not all fox hunts are conducted from horseback, some are done by people on foot, with dogs of course.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: greg stephens
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 10:07 AM

The only hujnting I am at all familiar with(though I've never participated) is in the Lake District. And people do it on foot, as Glok rightly points out. So if you feel motivated to vban foxhunting becaue you dislike people with red coats and horse, you are being a little unfair on the footpacks.
    A lot of anti-hunt people seem to think there is a serious constitutional risk to the country if the law is not enforced. Couldnt agree more, laws should be enforced rigorously. Perhaps some of you are unaware that stopping on the pavement and talking to a friend is illegal. As is the habit of 15-year olds kissing each other. So if you happen to see either of these activities taking place, do pop round to the nearest police station and report it. I'm sure your public spiritedness will be enormously appreciated.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 10:18 AM

Perhaps some of you are unaware that stopping on the pavement and talking to a friend is illegal. As is the habit of 15-year olds kissing each other.

But neither involve ripping live animals apart.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: greg stephens
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 10:35 AM

Very perceptive, GUEST, spotting that standing on the pavement does not involve being cruel to animals(unlesss, of course you happen to be standing on one at the time). My point(I am surprised you didnt undertand it) was that all these activities are illegal, but it doesnt seem to cause any serious problems that they are not rigorously enforced.
   And I wish people wouldnt keep trying to drag in the cruely issue. You can be exceedingly cruel to foxes in all sorts of ways, perfectly legally. This legislation merely stops people chasing them with dogs.
   Interestingly enough, it is perfectly legal to keep a pack of foxes and train them to hunt other foxes. Which seems to dispose pretty convincingly of any suggestion that the law is something to do with cruelty. It also seems odd to me that it stops you chasing hares, but not rabbits. And I believe an unfortunate error in drafting the bill makes it legal to chase foxes if you shoot them afterwards, but not if you let tjhem go when you catch them. That seems to me rather perverse, if your motivation is to be nice to foxes.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 10:44 AM

Guest Milk Monitor:

I read the article you linked to, and could find no basis for your claim "if what is reported in above link is true. The people on the hunts were very clear about their intentions to flout the law"

One quote: The Countryside Alliance called on hunt supporters to meet as normal, but vowed they would stay within the law.

Another: Mike Hobday, from the league[against cruel sports], said video evidence of the law being broken was to be passed onto police.

"Our evidence suggests that most hunts did operate within the law, many meeting and promptly going home and others peacefully exercising their hounds or drag hunting.

"However, we have received reports of what we believe is clearly illegal activity by a number of hunts across Britain."

Are you hoping people will accept your assertions without reading the article?

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,milk monitor
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 11:36 AM

The last sentence you quoted is what I was referring to.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: greg stephens
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 11:48 AM

Milk Monitor: the quote doesn't bear any connection to what you said.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 11:51 AM

Ah Greg my friend you mustn't confuse peoples prejudices by the use of logic to refute their statements. It is legal for a pregnant woman to urinate in the street, and I believe for a carter to do the same against the wheel of his wagon, providing it is not done in a provocative manner. Can't remember the last time I saw either; football supporters, well that's a different matter altogether!
Giok ¦¬]

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,milk monitor
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 12:12 PM

In my 'anti' perspective it bears relation. If the hunters are happy to act within the law why do some of them want it repealed?

They could have gone out yeterday and acted within the law, which no doubt alot of them did, did they need Kate Hoey on her soapbox, being very clear, that they would continue to do so until it is repealed.

All that will do is deter those who may have taken up the sport of drag hunting, because they don't wish to be associated with the 'minority' who are unable to accept the ruling.

I realise that it isn't newsworthy to have had someone air that view, but maybe it wasn't particularly representative of the 'majority' to have had Kate's opinion on TV?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 03:19 PM

Hmm.... Don't know too much about the intricacies of fox hunting, but it seems to generate a lot of heat on 'Mudcat'. If this is a reflection of how this law was brought about then it's a bad piece of legislation. Passionate politicians are a bloody dangerous bunch if they don't temper their emotion with a bit of common sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: *Laura*
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 03:33 PM

Greg - the law does stop people chasing rabbits. It is now illegal to hunt, with more that 2 dogs etc etc, 'any wild mammal' (and in their definition of 'wild' they have included domestic. *raises eyebrow* presumably so people can't breed animals specifically for hunting them. So no cat-hunting anyone!)

xLx

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: *Laura*
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 03:39 PM

If you are interested...

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 05:03 PM

The bottom line is that anyone who finds or agrees with all these endless 'red herrings' is defending a sport where inflicting cruelty for the fun of its particpants is thought to be acceptable.

It NEVER can be.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 07:40 PM

Anyone who believes that UK police have been investigating, and prosecuting, all reported crimes during the last twenty years must have been living in Outer Mongolia, or some secluded funny farm.

We have a system known as screening, which allows the police to ignore crimes when they see little chance of getting a result which would justify the expenditure of cash and resources necessary.

If you are mugged, or your car is stolen, they will give you a crime number for your insurance company, but there is very little chance that there will be any real investigation, unless they believe that a series of similar crimes are the work of the same criminal(s).

If they do catch someone, the CPS will not permit a prosecution unless the evidence is such as to provide a virtually certain conviction.

To think that any great effort will be made to enforce anti hunting law is naive in the extreme.

I can't recall the British people ever being asked if they minded that their police force should decide whether laws should be enforced, and criminals punished, but take my word for it, it happens every day.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 07:48 PM

BTW I am definitely against hunting wild animals, but I am also against making laws to force others to conform to my beliefs.

Bit of a quandary really.

Perhaps we might compromise, and outlaw hunting animals, but declare open season on politicians, and tabloid journalists (Grins).

DT

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Peace
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 07:52 PM

Guest Puck,

I think the chickens would like a more secure pen.

Let me see: I'm in an area that has coyotes, fox and other predators. I raise chickens. Yep, guess I'll just leave sone open areas to let the predators in. Sounds like a plan, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,milk monitor
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 08:13 PM

Don, imagine the scenario...Mr.A spends an afternoon on his horse hunting a fox until it is too exhausted to run. He then watches as it is shredded by the hounds. On returning to the carpark where he left his 4x4...it is gone. What does he do?

He rings the police and obtains the crime ref number for his insurance company.

Why does car theft have a crime refernece number? Because the law states it is a crime to take someones vehicle without their consent.

Nobody mentioned they expected the perpetrators to be caught, let alone convicted. But Mr.A as a victim of a crime is covered by his insurance for his loss.

How happy would Mr.A be if the police said, " Sorry old bean, we've decided not to do car crime today, try again when someone else is on duty."

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 08:19 PM

So, some "hunts" are conducted on foot? Well I dont give a rats ass if they go on their knees! It is cruel barbaric and damned unnecessary. Come out of the dark ages!

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: kendall
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 08:47 PM

I'm curious, why is fox hunting not banned in Scotland?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: kendall
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 08:48 PM

Or in Northern Ireland?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 01:08 AM

In Scotland in brings in a lot of income doesn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 02:17 AM

A quick look at all the work of many bodies and other legislation set-up to prevent needless cruelty - would have clearly indicated to the few who do enjoy inflicting thise needless cruelty - that it was not generally thought to be an acceptable practice or in line with the direction that is generally thought to reflect a civilised society.

In this case the really sad thing was being forced to HAVE to introduce this law. For those few who thought (and still think) that inflicting cruelty for their pleasure - did not look like they were ever going to volunteer to stop. In fact - in the face of general concern - they became more determined to cloud the issue in order to carry on. Even to the extent of spending vast sums of money to use the law of the land - (they hold in contempt) - and say they will ignore.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 02:37 AM

I think the attraction is the warm blood of the hunted animal.


There is something primeval about riding fast across country chasing a prey until it is pulled apart and then smearing its blood on a child. The child is initiated into the sport. The thrill never leaves the child.

Otis Ferry probably started out in this fashion.


No-one seems to mention blood lust when defending hunting but that is what it is all about.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 03:21 AM

What is fueling this for many - is the irony of seeing certain sections of our community struggling when the law is not to their liking and who now talk about breaking it.

It is ironic to see many of those who have thought that sitting in judgement, imposing their views and the law upon others was their preserve - now arguing that the judgement of the law should not be applied to them. Perhaps now - the 'good old' double-standard that this country has championed to the world for so long - can be finally confined to the past?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 03:45 AM

It is a tradition here to disobey laws that are held to be unjust and unfair, and to accept the consequences of that disobedience.
Think of the suffragettes and the poll tax rebels.
We are ruled and policed by consent.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 04:11 AM

I see that the guest who doesn't give a rat's ass {is that legal?] seems somewhat put out to learn that some hunts leave the horses at home.
Kendall:- Hunting with a pack of dogs is banned in Scotland and has been for about a year. They get round it the same way as some of the English packs are now doing by having a couple of guys riding quad bikes, and armed with shotguns, following the hunt. They are there to despatch the fox if it is cornered, to stop the dogs killing it, and breaking the law. We have our on parliament in Scotland now, and while it is hamstrung as to what legislation it can touch, we can still make our own laws on certain things. The anomoly in the UK is that Scots law is different to English, and this goes back to the union of the crowns under James VI and I, where Scottish law was ruled as untouchable by the English parliament. All subsequent laws passeby a UK parliament apply in Scotland, but where they clash with existing Scots law the old law takes precedence.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Gervase
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 04:19 AM

Guest seems to have picked up his perception of hunting from some pre-war treatise. Blooding a novice hunter hasn't been done for nearly half a century.
It probaby doesn't matter a whit, though, because the whole issue - pro and anti - is based on misconceptions and prejudice. The antis seem to divide into those who are genuinely convinced that fox-hunting is cruel and therefore incompatible with civilised values, and those who see the fight for a ban as a skirmish in the class war (with some cross-over between the two values). The pro-hunt lobby seems to be divided between the libertarians who see the UK as prey to too many restrictive laws and see liberty being eroded, and those who see hunting as a battlefield in a struggle between urban and rural values.
That doesn't stop rural people being passionately anti-hunting or urban types being pro-hunting (when I was a child in London I used to go beagling in Oxforshire regularly, which is one of the reasons my knees are knackered now!). What it does mean is that the passion and prejudice on both sides makes reasoned debate nigh impossible.
Having hunted myself, I am pro-hunting, although I accept that many hunts - particularly those near to London - have more than their share of tossers and wankers who have taken up the sport because they think it'll give them the trappings of gentility (you don't see many of them hunting with the fell packs or my local hunt in West Wales though!).
I also accept and respect the right of others to disagree with hunting, as with shooting and fishing.
What I don't accept is for those who disagree to have the right to shout down, intimidate and threaten people (and I have been on the receiving end of that sort of behaviour).
As for the notion of 'the voice of the people', without debating Rousseau at length, I don't believe that the ban truly represents the general will. Were we always to heed the vox populis, as has been claimed for the current ban, we would probably still have public executions in the UK, along with enforced castration, the odd lynching and enforced deportation of asylum seekers.
The debate on fox hunting has been far from civilised and it is not yet over.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 06:52 AM

The debate on fox hunting has been far from civilised and it is not yet over.

Perhaps not but the pro-'tearing foxes to pieces with hounds for fun' lobby be will now be forced to honestly debate the issue.

The debate will now move to a position where those few who wish to inflict needless cluelty for their sporting pleasure will have to convince the country (and the country's law-makers) of the need to introduce legislation to enable these few to indulge in their strange preference.

In the meantime - it looks as if those who wish to meet-up and ride together will continue to so - but without the need to see dogs terrify and rip another animal to pieces.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: greg stephens
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 07:22 AM

Laura, you can still go rabbitting with dogs,it is only if you do it to mice or hares that you are in trouble. But you can still hunt rats. The Shambles and GUEST still keep stating that this law is about cruelty, but I wish one of them would explain why it is cruel to rip a fox apart with dogs, but perfectly OK wth a rabbit. And of course you can blast off at either with a shotgun whenever you like.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John O'L
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 07:53 AM

Gervase -

There are many here who are unable to understand how a well-adjusted rational person (as you seem to be) can enjoy such a sport.
What is it about the hunt that you find attractive?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 08:00 AM

It's not just the ripping of the fox apart that's cruel - in fact that last act is parhaps the least cruel part of the whole sickening process because it's over, and the victim despatched to oblivion, relatively quickly. The cruellest part is surely the chase - with an animal that's terrified out of its wits being pursued to exhaustion by a horde fired by the basest human instinct, blood-lust.

Maybe if a few of the Toffs and Hooray Henrys (along with all those others from the lower orders who make themselves feel important by associating with them) were put into a situation where roles were reversed, they might see the world from behind a different set of blinkers?

And if it's OK to hunt foxes with packs of dogs, why isn't it OK for me to pit my Staffie against another? (OK, he's been dead a long time now, but you know what I mean!). Presumably the Yoicks Tally-Ho mob would regard dog-fighting (which involves two reasonably evenly-matched animals) as barbaric. Why? I'm not saying it's right, just that it can't be any wronger than hunting - that's to say ABSOLUTELY wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: greg stephens
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 08:19 AM

So why arent we banning rabbit hunting? Or battery farming? Presumably, because practitioners dont wear red coats. Not a very rational basis for constructing the law of the land.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 09:02 AM

Perhaps we might compromise, and outlaw hunting animals, but declare open season on politicians, and tabloid journalists (Grins).


You left out lawyers...

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Crystal
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 09:14 AM

>if it's OK to hunt foxes with packs of dogs, why isn't it OK for me to pit my Staffie against another? (OK, he's been dead a long time now, but you know what I mean!)<

Fine by me, there is no reason to stop you and it saves shooting dangerous dogs!

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,*Laura*
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 09:24 AM

Greg - people are only allowed to hunt rabbits on their own land, or with specific permission from the landowner.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: kendall
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 10:33 AM

I used to be a hunter; in fact I lived for deer season and got turned on by the odor of powder solvent and gun oil. But, the last deer I killed, she didn't die quickly and when I approached her, she looked at me as if to say "Why are you doing this"? I sold my gun and have not hunted since.
I figure I have evolved.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 10:34 AM

The Shambles and GUEST still keep stating that this law is about cruelty, but I wish one of them would explain why it is cruel to rip a fox apart with dogs, but perfectly OK wth a rabbit.

I am not sure that I have stated that this LAW is about cruelty - or indeed about preventing cruelty. What I have said is that those who continue to produce the same old 'red herrings' and comparisons - are defending the practice of a few people who may think that inflicting needless cruelty on any animal (or human for that matter) for the fun of their sport is acceptable.

Perhaps someone would explain why they would wish to churn out the same old rubbish - in order to 'muddy the waters' to support and defend the continuation of this particular cruel practice?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 12:25 PM

Kendall, the same thing happened to me when i was a boy and shot a blackbird with an air pistol. When i got to it I had to shoot it three more times. I've never shot or hunted since and am implacably opposed to those who do. Evolution indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 12:44 PM

Since when did a Staffordshire Bull Terrier become a dangerous dog Crystal? I would be happier to leave a 'Staffie' to look after my kids than I would, a Border Collie, a Jack Russell Terrier or a German Shepherd dog, or many other breeds for that matter!
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 03:46 PM

There must be something to that, Kendall. My brother in law had the same experience. He said the doe looked at him with a very clear message. He never hunted again either.

Maybe it's just the big brown eyes. Or maybe we are more sensitive to some animals' psyches than others.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 04:38 PM

Thanks Giok, you are so, so right. Staffies are no more dangerous than any other dog, indeed they're considerably less unpredictable (or should that be considerably more predictable??) than some other breeds. I was brought up with them, and so were my kids, and I never had any reason to fear them. It's unfortunate for them that they have this 'hard' image that attracts the dickhead owners who train them to be overly aggressive. Every dog has the instinct to be aggressive in certain circumstances, and every dog can be trained to be vicious, just as every dog can be trained to be gentle. In forty years of living with and around Staffies which were reared with love, I found them always to be faithful and gentle animals, devoted and fine companions (as did my widowed mother who loved her last Staffie as though he was her child).

As with all dogs, treat them well and they're fine, treat them badly and they become a handful. There's no such thing as a bad dog, just bad owners.

Sorry about the thread creep but I get pissed off by people who believe blindly the drivel they read in the gutter press, and spout it off as truth. How many Staffies have you owned Crystal?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 04:53 PM

And in case you're wondering, no I would never put my dog to fight another - it's a barbaric notion, I was just making a point.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,*Laura* (can't log on for some reason)
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 05:00 PM

Just out of curiosity - if a rat had looked at you in the same way would it have had the same effect?

xLx

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,Doggie poet
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 05:08 PM

My long nosed, long tailed terrier,
Best fighting dog on earth.
Much longer than the average dog,
And greater round the girth.

My long nosed, long tailed terrier,
Not had a fight for a while.
Other dogs won't fight him,
Cause he's a crocodile.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: DougR
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 07:30 PM

Is it true that 250,000 turned out in GB over the weekend to protest the law? That's what CNN reported yesterday.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 01:46 AM

Not sure that this is true or if it is - that this is really news. As all over the country - a lot more than 250,000 people went to watch football, went shopping or did many other useful things.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 02:55 AM

I shot a swallow with an air rifle as a child, and like other correspondents here it so disgusted me I've never shot anything since. It was a quite revolting experience and made me very ashamed.
    However, that experience did not fill me witrh a self-righteous desire to pass laws in favour of gassing foxes; or hunting rabbits and rats, but not foxes, with dogs. Obviously, the same experience can affect different people in different ways.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Gervase
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 05:22 AM

I think many boys experience something similar – plinking at cardboard targets or tin cans with an air gun eventually palls. They know of the destructive power of a gun and have seen it in a sanitised version thousands of times on the screen, so they want to try it out in real life.
A bird is shot, and then there is an immediate feeling of remorse, disgust and guilt; all the stronger because that creature's probable suffering and death is pointless yet completely irreversible. For many youngsters that is their first experience of the messy finality of death and it has an enduring effect.
It endures among those who hunt, shoot and fish as well – or I believe it should. These days I only shoot what I or my friends are prepared to eat, be it pheasant, rabbit, deer, pigeon or goose. Every time that irreversible act is done, and a living, sentient creature crumples in a mass of meat, fur or feather, there is a moment of remorse. Who am I to take the life of another creature – a thing of miraculous beauty which until moments ago was sharing the air that I breathe, whose heart was pumping and whose senses were probably registering far more than mine?
And yet I do, and I know many others who feel similarly – who kill and yet do so with a curious mix of feelings; who feel the elation of the chase or the sheer exhaustion of the hill-stalk, the satisfaction of the combination of science and skill that results in the kill and yet who look at their quarry with respect.
I do it because I eat meat, and because I believe we need to respect the creatures that provide us with that meat. For the same reason that I will only eat free-range chicken, beef and pork, I would rather eat a creature that has had a free and natural life and whose end seems to me to be a part of the cycle of nature; of the link between predator and quarry that defines the roles of so many species. The fact that I do this with a gun rather than with a spear, with a trap or with tooth and nail is simply a measure of the fact that homo sapiens as a species has almost uniquely evolved as a tool user.

Yet, of course, that is only one part of the argument. No-one eats the fox that is killed by the hounds or, now, shot by the huntsman. But there, too, there is something of the same feelings engendered by hunting for the pot, with the added edge that here there is risk involved. Few would argue that in the UK, with its artificial countryside, 'nature' can go her way in some prelapsarian state.
Consider. We think nothing of grubbing out weeds from our fields and gardens, of eliminating parasites from our livestock and of destroying rats, mice, flies, ants, wasps, cockroaches or other vermin that cross that threshold between the 'wild places' and our own. Yet each of these is an organism evolved over millions of years with a singular gift (which we share) of exploiting opportunities to help its kind increase. Yet we destroy them because they are 'inconvenient' or destructive or economically threatening. Most of the time we destroy them without a second thought; it is part an parcel of maintaining the balance between us and nature.
Yet that same balance has to be maintained with other creatures as well – creatures with big brown eyes who dressed up and spoke in our storybooks as children. Deer, those gentle bambis, need to have their populations managed lest we face either a desertification of our woodland habitats or acquiesce in the regular starvation of older or weaker specimens. So we cull them with guns.
And the fox – wily old Charlie, Reynardine or whatever you wish to call it. In an unmanaged world without sheep, poultry, gamebirds, domestic rubbish bins and all the other tweaks that we have added to nature, the fox population would regulate itself admirably. But when we enter the equation things get skewed. Foxes thrive on our plenty; our chicken runs become irresistible, our rubbish a source of convenience food and our game coverts a ready larder.
So we regard an unchecked fox population as unacceptable. What do we do about it? There is shooting which, done properly, is effective. But shooting isn't simple. It means using a rifle that is difficult to acquire in our gun-fearing society, and it means long nights spent waiting with lamp and gun for the fox to offer a clear target – nights when most farmers I know are grabbing what little sleep they can get (particularly at the moment, when lambing is turning many of my friends into sleep-deprived zombies!)
Then there is poison. Dose a piece of carrion with something lethal and you could well put paid to a fox and its litter, but you would also wipe out badgers, buzzards, kites and many other species, so say nothing of the secondary effects of such lethal chemicals leaching into the soil to affect other organisms.
Or there's snaring. A fox runs into a wire noose laid the previous night and slowly throttles itself, writhing and thrashing so much in its efforts to escape that it will sometimes break its own bones (supposing that a cat didn't find the snare first), to be found in a grotesque rictus the following morning.
Or there is another option. Like the falconer who uses the skills of another beast to his own end, we can use dogs. They can find and flush a fox in daylight, and they have the stamina to run it down, and they have the strength to kill it extremely quickly.
It was a technique that developed maybe half a millennium ago, and it has gone on to become a sport because there are people who enjoy the thrill of seeing a pack of hounds, moving almost as one, quarter and turn through field and coverts, using senses so much more refined than ours, to track the fox. It can take some time, with false starts and frustrations, before the fox goes from first scent to full view, and that is when the chase begins – that scene that we think we know so well.
The hounds will invariably pursue the fox for as long as it takes to bring it down; that is their instinct, honed by selective breeding. The death takes just a moment, yet many professional huntsmen will acknowledge that in that moment they feel the same feelings I have described earlier because they respect their quarry.
The huntsman and his assistants are among the few likely to be there when the fox is killed. Following them will be the field of other rides. These are the majority, and they are there for a number of reasons. Foremost is the exhilaration of riding pell mell across country with all the risks that entails. They aren't following defined tracks in an orderly trot – this is a chance to enjoy riding at its rawest. There are others who follow for the thrill of seeing the dogs work and for whom the movements of the pack are as fascinating as a game of furry, steaming chess. There will inevitably be a few who have come because they think this will give them an entrée to some privileged world, but they will probably go home – cold, stiff and sore – at the end of the day and wonder why on earth they came.
I can imagine that not one person is there, however, to exult in the death of the fox, or for the experience of seeing it killed. Very few people who hunt actually see the kill – it happens in an instant when the leading hounds catch the fox. For most the first they know is a note on the horn and the sight of a milling pack of dogs ahead suddenly coming to a halt.
But everyone who hunts does it because they enjoy it. For many in the modern world, it provides an atavistic chance to connect – to connect with one species hunting another and to connect with a sense of risk and exhilaration that is largely absent today.
To end a rather long post, I cannot see anything to be ashamed of in that, and I see the death of the fox in the chase as a natural thing. For all these reasons I find it sad that hunting has been outlawed. For me it is the severance of one more thread that binds us to a world we increasingly disrespect and exploit.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: kendall
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 07:51 AM

I've said my piece, and I stand by it.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John O'L
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 08:30 AM

Gervase -

Did you read that before you posted?
Where do I start?

Obviously the feeling of elation/exhaustion/satisfaction outweighs the feeling of remorse/respect.

You prefer to kill & eat animals that have had a free & happy life than ones that have not. I don't see the relevance, but OK, fair enough, life requires death, go ahead.

"...the cycle of nature; of the link between predator and quarry..."
This is not descriptive of a fox hunt, and besides, calling something natural is not the same as calling it good, or even acceptable. Where I live (rural Australia) Mother Nature is often referred to as "The Crusty Old Bitch".
Tsunamis are natural. Fox hunts are not.

The notion that fox hunting is simply the performance of a civic duty I won't dignify with a response.

"The death takes just a moment"
All death takes just a moment. It's the pain & suffering that goes with it which many people would like to see reduced, rather than celebrated.

"...a game of furry, steaming chess..." Serious? Come on...
I think those who hunt for the sake of witnessing a game of furry steaming chess could almost be sidelined, couldn't they? I doubt we would hear much of an outcry from the furry steaming chess watchers' lobby.

"I can imagine that not one person is there, however, to exult in the death of the fox, or for the experience of seeing it killed."
Well I wonder how the fox would feel about that. The final degradation. After all it's been put through, and for what?

"For many in the modern world, it provides an atavistic chance to connect – to connect with one species hunting another and to connect with a sense of risk and exhilaration that is largely absent today."
Why do we need the connection of one species hunting another? Who benefits? I don't think the hunted species gets much out of it, but more to the point, what does the hunter get out of it? Risk and exhilaration can be found anywhere. Get a surfboard. The only thing hunting provides is the opportunity to kill.

Perhaps you're right. Perhaps we do need it.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Gervase
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 11:01 AM

John,
You asked for my views on hunting and that's what you got. I wrote down what I thought and no, I didn't read it through before posting. I wonder, though, how closely you read it before replying.
The problem is, we see different worlds through different eyes. I don't know how many foxhunts you've seen, but clearly your experience has been vastly different from mine. For a great many hunters, the point of it is the fun - the fun of seeing the hounds work, of getting closer to the Crusty Old Bitch.
As for how the fox feels; I imagine it feels very much like the rabbit, the hare, the partridge or the mouse feels when it dies. As far as I know, we humans are reckoned to be the only creatures who actually know we're going to die (which is probably why we felt the need to invent god), so it would be wrong to anthropomorphise the fox's experience of death.
That's not to say that cruelty to animals is acceptable. To that end, a quick death from the hounds would probably be 'preferable' from a fox's point of view to a lingering death from poison, from choking in a snare or from gangrene induced by shotgun pellets, and I've seen the remains of foxes with all of those.
However, it's clear that nothing I can tell you about foxhunting will make you reassess your view. I can't quite work out what your view is, but it seems to be that the death involved in hunting is less acceptable than the death involved in bringing you your breakfast milk, your leather shoes or your cheap eggs. If you're a vegan, however, I apologise in advance for such an insulting assumption.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 11:53 AM

I had a lovely kangaroo steak when I was in Oz.
G ¦¬]

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 12:23 PM

However, it's clear that nothing I can tell you about foxhunting will make you reassess your view. I can't quite work out what your view is, but it seems to be that the death involved in hunting is less acceptable than the death involved in bringing you your breakfast milk, your leather shoes or your cheap eggs. If you're a vegan, however, I apologise in advance for such an insulting assumption.

However you wish to dress this up. Whatever comparison you wish to use. Whatever baseless asumptions and harmful accusations you feel you need to dig-up and make to those who may not share your view or accept your excuses - it is a fact that you are defending inflicting THIS particular needless cruelty.

Not because this needless cruelty has ever had any effect on fox populations - but because a few people think that doing this for their sporting pleasure is acceptable. Is it really so important that this particular form of needless cruelty continues? Especially as (and as demonstrated this past weekend) all the other enjoyable and traditional aspects of riding to the hunt, can (and will) carry on exactly as before.

Perhaps someone would explain why they would wish to churn out the same old rubbish - in order to 'muddy the waters' to support and defend the continuation of this particular cruel practice?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Gervase
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 12:45 PM

Aye, I am defending what you see as needless cruelty. I don't see it as needless cruelty. There we'll have to disagree.
And it's probaby not so very important that it continues, any more than it's important that people should be able to sing and play without the interference of licensing authorities...it's just that it matters a lot to those who do it.
As for muddying the waters - someone asked me what I saw in hunting. I told them. Where's the mud - it's a subjective view from one who has taken part. One of the few here.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 01:02 PM

That's not to say that cruelty to animals is acceptable.

No it isn't - but despite this statement - you are still saying the chasing by dogs and the (eventual) terrible death - only for the sporting pleasure of some of the participants IS acceptable.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 02:15 PM

You say that it matters a lot to those who do it.

But you also say that it is 'not so very important' that the practice of these few people - who think there is sporting pleasure in chasing and tearing other animals to pieces with dogs - should continue.

If it is thought by you that this cruel practice is 'not so very important' - where then do you see the need for the cruelty? For if there is no need for this practice and it is 'not so very important' to continue chase and kill foxes with dogs - then surely any cruelty involved in this practice must be needless.

Or are you really saying that the practice of chasing and killing foxes with dogs for the plesure of a few is not inflicting cruelty at all?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John O'L
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 05:33 PM

Gervase -

The problem I have with the sport is that it is a celebration of needless killing, which has been our greatest failing as humans.
As we claim to be the most intelligent creature on Earth and the masters of all we see, shouldn't we be trying to lift ourselves away from such impulses, rather than wallowing in them?

Also, you mention that humans are thought to be the only creatures with self-awareness. Assuming this is true, are you really suggesting that for the purpose of the hunt we can simply turn it off like a tap, because the fox won't know the difference?
It is not a matter of anthropomorphising the fox's death, it is a matter of denying our own knowledge of life & death, right & wrong.
If we know of it we are committed to knowing of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: kendall
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 08:16 PM

We hunt Snowshoe Hares in Maine, and there aint a dog in the country that can catch one of those critters!
They make the mistake of running in a large circle to avoid getting too far from home, and the hunter can judge where it will return and he just stands there and shoots it. The dog never gets to tear it apart while it's still alive.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: kendall
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 08:19 PM

By the way, Doug, a few years ago, there was a big protest rally in England that made the TV news, and they were protesting fox hunting. However, the NRA picked it up and told us they were protesting the confiscation of guns. Lying bastards. I confronted Mr. LaPierre about that but he never did answer my letter.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Gervase
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 03:27 AM

Roger, I said it was not so very important in the scheme of things because it isn't. Just as being able to make music in public places isn't so very important, or many of the 'rights' that we cherish, when placed alongside war, genocide, induced famine and poverty and the abuse of children.
As for a celebration of needless killing, that's a trickier one. I won't rehash the 'needless' argument, but the celebration issue has to be addressed. An alternative view would be to see the death of a creature as little more than the disposal of a piece of garbage; a perfunctory act of no more significance than flushing the lavatory.
What would that say about our views of life and death? In my experience, those who hunt (with hounds or with guns) are more attuned to the complex relationships between species and the cycle of life and death than those who don't. As such, as I explained earlier, death is not 'celebrated', but it is acknowledged far more than by those who prefer to have it carried out anonymously - for those who prefer not to see the connection between living creatures and the stuff they buy in the shops.
That's why I have respect for vegans, because they do make that connection and take a stand accordingly. Those who protest at foxhunting and yet do nothing about the real and systematic cruelty that underpins so much of our comfortable lives are simply being woolly minded at best, and ignorant and socially-divisive at worst.
For most people who argue against hunting it does seem to boil down to a perception of 'toffs on horseback' and an idealised continuation of old class struggles (I wonder what they would have said to Engels, who loved hunting). If they really thought otherwise, every time they took a stroll down the canalside they'd be kicking every angler into the water.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John O'L
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 05:08 AM

Thanks for your insights Gervase, but this is going nowhere. I resign.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 05:12 AM

Roger, I said it was not so very important in the scheme of things because it isn't. Just as being able to make music in public places isn't so very important, or many of the 'rights' that we cherish, when placed alongside war, genocide, induced famine and poverty and the abuse of children.

Gervase, this is exactly what I refer to as 'muddying the waters'. Not choosing to undertake, excuse or minimise any needless creulty - is a start.

When you are faced with the simple choice about whether to defend this particular needless creulty - (for a few people to obtain sporting pleasure by chasing and killing a fox with hounds) - even as you state that you don't consider its continuation to be 'so very important in the scheme of things - it is still seemingly important enough for you to choose to defend it here or critise others who do object to THIS particular cruel practice - why?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 05:32 AM

I would take this opportunity to give fair warning to anyone who might contemplate 'strolling along the canal side and kicking every angler into the water' Unless you like the ideaa of wearing maggots or various other horrible smelly things in their hair I would suggest not doing it, it would also help if you are able to swim. As I said before angling is the biggest participation sport in the UK, and is prdominently a 'working mans' sport, so you will get no support from the Tony Banks's of this world should you try to get it banned, as it would cost the "Labour" [Phtooey] party too many votes. Also apart from coarse fishing where the majority of fish are put back, many people like myself only fish for the pot. Even what we now call coarse fish were once eaten, Tench and Carp being kept in monastery stew ponds for the Friday feast, and Pike is very nice to eat, as is Perch albeit bony. So as far as banning angling is concerned forget it, anyway "You wouldn't like me when I'm angry" as a certain man with a greenish tinge was known to say.
Giok ¦¬]

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Gervase
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 06:24 AM

Why do I feel the need to defend it? Because it's something I value and it's under attack. One could ask why you (rightly in my view) feel the need to campaign against changes in the PEL system, or others campaign to preserve historic buildings and ancient woodland. It's because the great mass of the population either doesn't care or doesn't know enough about an issue to make an informed decision, so it's up to those who do know and care to stand up and debate the issue.
To return to the argument (at the risk of boring the rest of the world into catatonia), if you accept that foxes are going to be killed, what is wrong with using another species to do it cleanly and quickly? From my own experience, it is a lot less cruel than the alternatives.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 08:07 AM

'Cleanly and quickly' after chasing it, hugely outnumbered and driven mad by fear, to the point of exhaustion so it's unable to defend itself. Add to that the horde of primitives in red jackets blowing horns and shouting, driven temporarily mad by their blood-lust, and the number of members of the lower social orders who seek to inflate their sense of own-importance by associating with the gentry, and you've got a pretty appalling and disgusting spectacle.

I've got more respect for a sheep-shagger, at least the sheep might enjoy it too.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 08:22 AM

Why do I feel the need to defend it? Because it's something I value and it's under attack.

I would try and help, but you're doing a far better job than I could.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 08:24 AM

199

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 08:25 AM

200! Tally ho! Let's hope the Tories bring it back in the next Parliament!

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 10:28 AM

To return to the argument (at the risk of boring the rest of the world into catatonia), if you accept that foxes are going to be killed, what is wrong with using another species to do it cleanly and quickly?

Thank for 'cutting the the chase' and returning to the single issue now at stake here. As it is generally agreed that this cruel method has no appreciable statistical effect on fox populations - that fox - on that day - is only going to be chased, terrified, exhusted and eventually killed by dogs for one reason - because you have decided that to kill this wild animal in this cruel manner is sporting fun. Two types of animal - one wild and one domesticated are being used by you - only to provide your sporting fun.

As this past weekend has proved that eveyone can have a great day-out without this cruel aspect - perhaps someone would explain why they would wish to churn out the same old rubbish - in order to 'muddy the waters' to support and defend the continuation of this particular cruel practice?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,SJ
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 10:33 AM

Ted, you're a rascal! Stop it at once or I'll ban you from wearing the smoking-jacket!
S:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Tam the man
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 02:56 PM

I've never seen a farmer ride a bicycle and then they say that they are Poor.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 07:41 PM

It makes me wonder how England ever got the reputation of a civilized country.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 08:33 PM

It's because the great mass of the population either doesn't care or doesn't know enough about an issue to make an informed decision, so it's up to those who do know and care to stand up and debate the issue.

Civilised nation indeed. These are the words of an intelligent man and one probably far better educated than I am - who has just justified in debate - words to the effect that if a certain type of wild animal is going to be killed (because he has decided it is) there is nothing wrong with having a bit of sporting fun with the manner of its death.

A line of reasoning that made public executions the family fun day-out they once were.

I have come to the conclusion that far from it being a case of 'the great mass of the population' not caring or not knowng. These justifications - for the needless cruelty of chasing and killing foxes with dogs - are only made because 'the great mass of the population' have made a just and informed decision that prevents these few people from inflicting the creulty they think - because of their superior knowledge they have some right to inflict.

Ride (or walk) to hounds, dress-up as you wish and enjoy your social gatherings in the countryside by all means. I may even (try) to join your social groups. But please don't carry-on with the idea that the cruelty of chasing and killing a fox with dogs must play some part in all this.

The people have spoken. If you wish to change the law to allow this form of creulty to be inflicted - please be honest and present the arguement that it is only for your sporting fun. Please don't frighten and involve the many people (with real problems) who live and work in the country in any more bogus and well-funded campaigns.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 08:45 PM

I've got more respect for a sheep-shagger, at least the sheep might enjoy it too.

I understand the sentiments but I am not too sure that I would quite 'go all the way' with that one. Not sure if the sheep even get asked - either before or after. Perhaps we could leave sheep alone too - unless they ask..........?

I am reminded of a old 'Playboy' cartoon. The chap has just finshed and is walking away and adjusting his trousers. The sheep says ........when will I see you again?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,Ms Penelope Rutledge
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 09:05 PM

I've had a heart to heart talk with Winston. He apologized for yelling at me, and I apologized for throwing the vase at him. We spent much time talking about it. Then he surprised me.

He said, "Penelope, would you respect a man who let someone else control him?"

"No, Winston, I wouldn't," I replied. "But you are hardly a man who lets anyone else control him, so what is your point?"

"My point is simply this, my dear," he went on. "I firmly believe with all my heart that the fox hunt is a valuable British tradition and that the new law banning it is an unjust law, passed merely for cynical political gain by Tony Blair. I believe it is my sworn moral duty, in fact, to resist that law. Now, I understand that we don't agree on the moral question of the fox hunt...but, Penelope, I would not be being true to myself were I to let your opinion of the hunt...or anyone else's opinion...control my own free decision regarding whether or not to violate what is to me an unjust law. I would, in fact, be surrenduring my own identity as an independent Briton in the process and betraying my family's tradition going back 500 years...and then I would not be the man you married."

I hardly knew what to say. Before I could think what to say, he went on...

"But I know that you too, Penelope are a woman of your word and principle, and that is why I married you. Therefore, you must do your duty. If I do decide to illegally conduct a fox hunt, you must at once inform the legal authorities and let the law take its course. I will face the consequences. In this manner, you and I will both have stood up honestly for what we believe in, and neither one of us need compromise or deny our own right to be who we truly are nor the one lose respect for the other."

Well, I was quite stunned. On the one hand, I know that Winston simply wants to wangle his way into hunting foxes, but on the other hand, he had a point I could hardly refute. I took a deep breath.

"Very well, Winston," I said at last. "If you feel that way, then we both must do what we must do. But don't be rash, Winston. I could not bear the thought of seeing you incarcerated in some dank gaol on a diet of bread and water." (I was being a bit funny...)

"Never fear, my dear. I have faced worse things than that," he said, with a twinkle in his eye. "I once woke up and found my face within 3 inches of Bertie's discarded athletic socks at the fencing club..."

Well, we both burst out laughing at that, and have been getting along famously since. Still, I wonder just what he is up to. He's a sly rogue. Surely he's not going to go brazenly out and force me to get him arrested? And if so, then what? Well, I shall have to wait and see, shan't I?

Meanwhile, Winston has purchased two marvelous new horses and we've been out riding on them. The black stallion is named "Cutlass" and the dapple mare is "Raphaella". We rode like the wind down Prentice Lane together today. I am sure I can deal with whatever Winston has up his sleeve on this fox hunt business.

*PRW-J

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John O'L
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 09:41 PM

When Europeans first arrived in Australia they found an isolated pristine environment, perfectly in balance. Nothing needed to be culled.
So they introduced foxes.

Hunting for sport is the enjoyment of making something die. It can be excused or hidden or disguised with any number of tangential disclaimers (which may be valid in some other context), but the purpose of hunting is to kill something, and the purpose of hunting for sport is the enjoyment thereof.

(I guess I'm back in the hunt)

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: greg stephens
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 02:23 AM

Well I've studied all these posts, and apparently the main thing wrong with hunting is the facts that some hunters wear red coats. Gassing is fine, shooting is fine, hunting rabbits is fine, battery farming of hens is fine: but hunting is unbelievably wicked and uncivilised because huntsmen(some of them) wear red coats.
And this is how we decide laws in England!

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 02:56 AM

Well I've studied all these posts, and apparently the main thing wrong with hunting is the facts that some hunters wear red coats. Gassing is fine, shooting is fine, hunting rabbits is fine, battery farming of hens is fine: but hunting is unbelievably wicked and uncivilised because huntsmen(some of them) wear red coats.

No - as your eariler contribtion was at pains to point out - not all wear red-coats.

As this past weekend has proved that eveyone can have a great day-out without this cruel aspect - perhaps someone would explain why they would wish to churn out the same old rubbish - in order to 'muddy the waters' to support and defend the continuation of this particular cruel practice?

Greg, are you now going to be supporting moves to legalise the practice of chasing, terrifing, exhausting and eventually killing foxes with dogs, for the sporting pleasure of a few? If so perhaps you can explain the justification for inflicting this particular form of cruelty?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 03:06 AM

This 'civilised' country had to order an official report to establish if chasing a deer for miles with dogs (for the fun of some of the participants) - had any adverse effects upon the animal.

As if there was really any question about this?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 03:54 AM

I think that now fox hunting is illegal sooner or later the law will be enforced. there was probably a hardcore of people who insisted on their right to gob on the top floor of the bus, for a while after the law was passed.

I still think the foxhunters could have won the debate, were it not for the nature of the beast. The sheer arrogance of the pro-hunting lobby; their crude dismissal of some people's genuine horror at the cruelty involved; their lack of reverence for the democratic process, it has all worked against them and it shines out from every post on this subject.

If ever there was a case of a group of people being a victim of their own demeanour, this must surely be it.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Gervase
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 04:21 AM

Be careful when you invoke the will of 'the great mass of the people'. Opinion polls consistently show that a significant majority in the UK would vote to bring back capital punishment if they had the chance. Would you accept that decision if (unlike the ban on hunting) it was truly put before the court of public opinion for a 'just and informed decision' to be made?
As far as I can see, the people haven't spoken. There has been no referendum, and the issue was not even made explicit on the Labour Party's last two manifestoes. The only way the ban could finally be carried was by invoking the Parliament Act to prevent the UK's second chamber (the same chamber that was celebrated for voting against the PEL Bill, I seem to recall) from debating the issue. It was a cynical political act by a government anxious to curry favour with its disillusioned backbenchers and grassroots members and had nothing to do with cruelty.
However, on current form, that looks like the sort of democracy we're going to have to accept in future.

BTW: Following that official report, the government has decided that it is now perfectly acceptable to chase foxes for miles provided - like the deer which were the subject of the report - they are shot at the end of the chase.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 04:47 AM

That's it in a nutshell Gervase. The reasons for banning it were selfish, and had nothing to do with concern for the fox.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: greg stephens
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 04:49 AM

Shqambles: I have a pretty simple attitude. I've never hunted, never wanted to, never will. But I think this law, and more particularly the way it was passed, is very dangerous to the social fabric of the country, because it is irrational and hypocritical, and divisive: the criminal law needs the whole-hearted support of society.
You, on the other hand, clearly think its passing was a Good Thing. So I think it is entirely legitimate to ask you what is so great about gassing foxes, hunting rabbits, and chasing foxes with dogs and then shooting them. Not to mention battery farming chickens.So, what's your answer?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 05:49 AM

Greg as you appear to care about this so much - perhaps you would answer my question first? Will you be supporting moves to legalise the inflicting this particular cruelty?

You, on the other hand, clearly think its passing was a Good Thing.

No I don't. I regret that it ever had to come to this and that it is very sad those few who think that inflicting any cruelty for their sporting enjoyment - could not have stopped this aspect - on their own accord - rather than deciding to drag everyone in to it and to get them to fight their battle for them. I am glad that everyone can now meet-up, dress-up and ride (or walk) together - without any laws being broken - as was demonstrated on Saturday. I think that peace will eventually break-out - if it is allowed to.......

So I think it is entirely legitimate to ask you what is so great about gassing foxes, hunting rabbits, and chasing foxes with dogs and then shooting them. Not to mention battery farming chickens.So, what's your answer?

Like most people here - I am not in favour of inflicting any cruelty at all - and most, if not all cruelty is needless. Killing is sometimes necessary and I have killed a lot of animals - but it is not something that I have ever found to be enjoyable and I have great suspicion about anyone who does - and anyone who defends the practice.

There are indeed lots of animal welfare and other issues to address and perhaps if you attend any of these meetings or protests - we will meet up at one and be able to address how best to tackle them? This is just one we can tick-off of a very long list - or are you going to campaign for chasing, terrifying, exhausting and eventually killing foxes with dogs - for sporting enjoyment - to be placed back on the list?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 08:02 AM

Greg, I think the point you and many pro-hunters are either missing or conveniently ignoring isn't that it's necessarily the kill that is especially cruel, it's the method of reaching the point of killing that is so appalling.

If a farmer walks round the corner of his barn, sees a fox getting to work on his chicken-coop, and shoots it that's no problem for me, he's simply protecting his livestock. But if a band of blood-maddened horsemen with thirty or forty large dogs seek out a fox in its habitat and then chase it terrified over miles of countryside, and have the gall to claim that they're doing it for 'fun' (or even worse, as I heard some plummy-mouthed toff at the weekend claim, that they do it for the benefit of the foxes - what utter bollocks) then they must have a very perverted view of what constitutes fun.

What next? Is badger-baiting to make a welcome return? Following the logic of the hunt-supporters, maybe it should. Don't badgers carry TB or rabies or something? Dirty little bastards, let the dogs at 'em. That'll be fun and the badgers will be so grateful.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 09:12 AM

Well said Johnny! I'm glad I'm not the only one who welcomes the return of Badger baiting! Tally -ho!

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 09:41 AM

Scallywag!

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,Giok
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 10:08 AM

Only the the animal lobby is stopping this government from culling badgers.A study in Ireland has proved conclusively that they carry TB. Yet when there was a programme of gassing badgers there was an outcry.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 10:16 AM

The only way the ban could finally be carried was by invoking the Parliament Act to prevent the UK's second chamber (the same chamber that was celebrated for voting against the PEL Bill, I seem to recall) from debating the issue.

There would I accept have been more than a little irony if the UK's second chamber had voted against the Licensing Act 2003 - for as the Bill was first introduced there - the Parliament Act would not have been able to have been used by the Government to force it through.

Sadly at the last moment - the Lib Dem peers decided to vote with the Government - so the Lords were not celebrated for voting against the Act as you wrongly state. It is a sad fact that they did not vote against it - for if they had - this poor piece of legislation Act would not have become law.....

The main difference however was that - unlike the Act's passage in the Commons - a number of sensible debates were held and measures introduced into this Act in the Lords - until they lost their nerve (or were misled) at the last moment. In this case - and up to that point - our Peers were correct and acting in the majority interest. In the matter of Hunting With Hounds - they were not doing this.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 10:31 AM

Culling Badgers where the need is proven I can go with Giok. But tormenting them and then bumping them off for 'fun' is deplorable. Same holds for foxes, deer, whatever. IMNAHO!
S:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 10:36 AM

Only the the animal lobby is stopping this government from culling badgers.A study in Ireland has proved conclusively that they carry TB. Yet when there was a programme of gassing badgers there was an outcry.

By the same token - human beings carry TB - should all human beings be gassed then?

If it was only the animal lobby that was preventing this - perhaps you should be grateful?

I still think the foxhunters could have won the debate, were it not for the nature of the beast. The sheer arrogance of the pro-hunting lobby; their crude dismissal of some people's genuine horror at the cruelty involved; their lack of reverence for the democratic process, it has all worked against them and it shines out from every post on this subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Gervase
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 12:50 PM

Really? Lack of reverence for the democratic process? Arrogance? Crude dismissal? As they say dahn sarf, you're 'avin' a larf, ain't you?!?!
Or do italics mean irony?
By the way, Roger, you still haven't told us your thoughts on the majority view of capital punishment.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 01:11 PM

Man! you pro cruelty types can come up with more red herrings! What you say is tantamount to saying, hell, I have the Clap, I might as well have syph too!

It is simply this, and nothing more, traditional fox hunting is barbaric, cruel and damned uncivilized. It has NOTHING to do with any other type of cruelty so stop muddying the waters!

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 01:15 PM

Inflicting Tony Blair on an unsuspecting world is extreme cruelty, and I for one think he should be culled. I can't promise not to enjoy it!
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 01:20 PM

Me too! LOL!

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 02:08 PM

Or do italics mean irony?

They mean that it was quote that I agreed with - from weelittledrummer's post 03.54.

Gervase, If you or anyone else wishes to start a thread on the subject of capital punishment or anything else - I will be happy to express my view of it in that thread. I would rather like to concentrate here on the matter at hand. It is difficult to do this with all the rather smelly old 'crimson kippers' still being thrown around.

Inflicting cruelty for the sporting pleasure of a few - what the majority of people (not only in the UK) are being asked to support. It should not be too much of a surprise to you that your view is a minority one. I did not invoke anything - you we the one who both mentioned this and dismissed it.

It's because the great mass of the population either doesn't care or doesn't know enough about an issue to make an informed decision, so it's up to those who do know and care to stand up and debate the issue.

I pointed out the obvious fact that whatever your low opinion of them - the people had ignored the 'muddied waters' and had clearly spoken on this issue - and expressed their low opinion upon the views of those who needed to inflict needless cruelty for their sporting fun.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 02:21 PM

Songs about capital punishment

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Gervase
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 04:05 PM

But Roger, where have the people spoken? When they took the vote, was I out of the room?
And the capital punishment issue is not a red herring - if you are to claim the mass of public opinion as an infallible guide to the morality of an action, you must accept all of the public's opinions; if it is the general will, then it is surely wrong to disagree!
Forgive me if I'm not speaking clearly and merely 'muddying the waters' (seems to be the phrase de jour), but I'm simply putting across my point of view and it seems to be instructive to use examples and comparisons to make the point. You're quite entitled to take the the opposite stance - I realise that your mind is already made up on the issue and that you are not going to change your opinion. Do you, somehow, think that I will yield to your arguments and change my mind?!
Essentially, we ain't getting anywhere. I posted at length to answer John's question, and I think I've said all I can on the matter. We don't agree, and there's an end to't.
But keep up the good work on the PELs - that's something we can agree on!

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,Giok
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 04:52 AM

If a government is elected with less than a 51% majority of all votes cast, and less than 50% of the electorate voted in that election, then in no way can the people be said to have 'spoken'. Until such times as verybody on the electoral register casts their vote you cannot say someone was elected by popular vote either. Voting should be compulsory, only then will an election be a true representation of the will of the people.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 05:06 AM

The thought of compulsory voting's a bit scary Giok - judging by some of the 'Erberts dragging their knuckles along the ground in our corner of the UK! Half of them can't even tie their shoelaces, how do you expect them to make a well-reasoned judgment at an election? We'd end up with the likes of Gareth Gates, David Beckham and Britney Spears as MPs! Mind you, they might do as well as the present incumbents!(LOL)
S:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 05:21 AM

Surely the knuckle dragger's judgement will be as sound as those who vote labour because they are in a trade union, or for any other party because their parents always voted for them. Then there's the housewife who votes for whomsoever has the nicest smile! Who's to say why people vote they way they do, or don't, I still think they should vote. I also think there should be a 'None of the above' box on the voting slip which if it got the most votes would mean that particular contest must be re-run with different candidates.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 05:53 AM

You got me there Giok! :-)
Sounds like a worthy plan to me!
S:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 07:03 AM

Gervase - we are in agreement. I and MOST of the world would agree with you when you say.........

That's not to say that cruelty to animals is acceptable.

But despite this statement - you are still saying the chasing by dogs and the (eventual) terrible death of the fox - undertaken only for the sporting pleasure of some of the participants - IS a form of acceptable cruelty.

You may be able to accept and live with this strange double-standard -but happily, most of the world would prefer not to.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 07:08 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Gervase
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 12:45 PM

Aye, I am defending what you see as needless cruelty. I don't see it as needless cruelty. There we'll have to disagree.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 07:09 AM

Where is there EVER - a need for cruelty to be inflicted?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,*Laura*
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 02:25 PM

Damnit - it's human bloody nature. Just look at how we treat each other!?
Is it any wonder how we treat animals?
A lot of people who hunt are people who only buy organic meat and veg, and free-range eggs etc. A lot of antis live in the city and know nothing about hunting.

Why are people so bloody horrible to each other? Apparently deep down we're all just vicious selfish bastards.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: The Shambles
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 05:57 PM

It is also human nature to undertake selfless tasks and brave deeds to help others and to save animals.

However, we can't use that side of human nature to excuse us when we do things we know we shouldn't and are perfectly aware there is no NEED for us to indulge in.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: kendall
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 08:04 PM

People can shoot back. Animals can't.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 02:33 AM

It is interesting to read here how the experience of hunting and killing wild animals (who don't shoot back) affects us differently. Many have said how experiences like this have prevented them from continuing to indulge in this for sporting pleasure.

When I was about 13 the thing was to have air pistols. If you could not afford these, the next best thing was a catapult. Forget target practice - the peer test was to see if you could kill other living things. After much stalking around and much time - I eventually managed to hit and kill a young blackbird. I was surprised to find that holding the still warm but lifeless body, filled me with no satisfaction - just sadness. I threw the catapult away....

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: EagleWing
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 05:07 AM

"Well I've studied all these posts, and apparently the main thing wrong with hunting is the facts that some hunters wear red coats. Gassing is fine, shooting is fine, hunting rabbits is fine, battery farming of hens is fine: but hunting is unbelievably wicked and uncivilised because huntsmen(some of them) wear red coats.
And this is how we decide laws in England!"

I can only suggest that you have not studied the posts at all.

Frank L.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: EagleWing
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 05:14 AM

"Culling Badgers where the need is proven I can go with Giok. But tormenting them and then bumping them off for 'fun' is deplorable. Same holds for foxes, deer, whatever."

But it can easily be demonstrated that humans do far more damage than badgers. So cull the humans, is what I say.

Frank L

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 07:46 AM

Starting with whom Frank?
Giok ¦¬]

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 12:11 PM

Martin Gibson
:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: greg stephens
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 12:39 PM

Eaglewing/Frank L: I think I've followed most of these letters fairly closely. And I made the obvious comment: that lots of people support this legislation, and claim it is on moral grounds. This legislation says it is bad to hunt foxes, but OK to hunt rabbits and rats. I think it is legitimate to ask what is the moral basis for this distinction. So far, not one supporter of the bill has had the grace to answer this simple and obvious question. Why dont you?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 01:34 PM

That's because there isn't one Greg, well not one that lies easily with the real reasons for wanting fox hunting banned.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 06:27 PM

Eaglewing/Frank L: I think I've followed most of these letters fairly closely.

I am not sure that the evidence supports this claim.

And I made the obvious comment: that lots of people support this legislation, and claim it is on moral grounds.

Not sure that it is question of lots of people supporting this legislation. Lots of people do not think that chasing,terrifying. exhausting and finally killing foxes by tearing them apart with dogs - for the sporting pleasure of a few participants - is acceptable practice. That a law had to be passed to prevent these few from inflicting this cruelty is thought by many to be sad.

This legislation says it is bad to hunt foxes, but OK to hunt rabbits and rats.

I am not sure that it does.

I think it is legitimate to ask what is the moral basis for this distinction.

This is a distinction that you make or deduce from this legislation - whilst ignoring that most posters do not make this distinction at all - so ask away.

So far, not one supporter of the bill has had the grace to answer this simple and obvious question. Why dont you?

I don't feel there is no acceptable reason to inflict needless cruelty and obtain sporting pleasure in the killing of any animal. Why do you think that inflicting this cruelty on foxes - IS acceptable?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 06:29 PM

Ooops! I will try again.

I don't feel there is ANY acceptable reason to inflict needless cruelty and obtain sporting pleasure in the killing of any animal. Why do you think that inflicting this cruelty on foxes - IS acceptable?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,*Laura*
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 06:43 PM

It says you are allowed to hunt rabbits and rats on your own land or on land that someone had said that you specifically can hunt on (with dogs) for the purposes of pest control.
So why is it ok to do that but not ok to hunt foxes (with dogs) on your own land for the purposes of pest control then?
And why is is still acceptable to kill thousands and thousands of foxes in towns and cities each year if it isn't acceptable to kill a few hundred in hunts a year.
On that point I assume antis are going to start campaigning about the people who shoot foxes in towns and cities just because they get in the way?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 07:29 PM

Which cities would those be laura? Thousands you say? How did we miss this?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 08:34 PM

For eighteen long years, characters like Peter Lilley, Margaret Thatcher, Keith Joseph were cheered ecstatically at Tory party conferences as they explained how they intended to stick it to the most hated by Toriesories sections of society: illegal immigrants, the unemployed, unmarried mothers, people on welfare.....

Now this government is sticking it to the sections of society that labour party voters most despise....

I really think you are wasting your time debating the wrongs and rights of this case. Some people object to the enjoyment of cruelty that is involved in being a member of a hunt, as opposed to being a ratcatcher. But i really don't think most people give a toss either way

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 27 Feb 05 - 03:09 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 08:16 PM

Just wait until it's your minority who are persecuted by parliment...

Bunnahabhain.

I must have missed this post - and the irony of it.............

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: robinia
Date: 27 Feb 05 - 04:48 AM

Thank you, thank you, Gervase, for posting an unpopular and widely misunderstood viewpoint -- though I doubt it will do much good! But anyone in honest search of what's behind both the ban and the foxhunting tradition itself might look up a long article that appeared a few weeks ago in (of all places!} The New Yorker (I lent it to a friend, so can't cite chapter & verse, but my local library had no trouble finding it under "foxhunting"). There's also a mind-opening new book that the article brought to my attention: A Fox in the Cupboard by Jane Shilling.   Read it, and then tell me about those awful people "who take pleasure in inflicting cruelty on animals" -- words that don't convey at all the spirit in which this journalist and single mother (do I have to add that she isn't rich?) discovered in herself, lmost by accident, a passion for the hunt   And it isn't a passion for cruelty; on the contrary . . . but read the book for yourself. And talk to someone who hunts before YOU define THEIR motivation.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Feb 05 - 04:58 AM

Perhaps those who support inflicting cruelty for their fun - should talk to those who do NOT choose to hunt - before YOU define THEIR motivation?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 27 Feb 05 - 05:32 AM

I chose not to hunt because I don't have the time, and I can't ride. Hunting is a way of life that has existed all my life, and hasn't done me any harm. As the harm it does to others well, foxes get killed, but that after all is the purpose of the hunt isn't it? Well not really, according to some people who go for the joy of riding headlong over hedges and ditches, and the fresh air and exercise. The fox now, well he is an animal unused to predation because man has killed off all his natural predators, so I suppose it awakens and sharpens an old instinct, and the clever ones [aren't they all supposed to be wily?] escape from the hunt and continue doing their own predation on cats, lambs, baby birds, hedgehogs etc. Some get killed and honour is satisfied on both sides, some deaths are more cruel than others, although it's a quick end. As for the cruelty involved, can anyone tell me of any method of killing an animal whether for food or for vermin control that is totally devoid of cruelty. You can't tell me that an animal that would naturally shy away when a human puts out a hand to them is not frightened when someone puts a stun gun to their head, and hopefully gets it right; not always the case. I challenge those of you who are concerned about the circumstances of a foxes end to visit a slaughterhouse, and pronounce themselves totally happy with the emthods used, and the cattle rolling their eyes in fear as ths slaughterman approaches. No it isn't pretty but it's something that's done thousands of times every day in the UK, and I believe that some of the people who do it enjoy their work!
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: robinia
Date: 27 Feb 05 - 05:51 AM

Wasn't aware that I was defining anyone else's motivation -- or should I have said "anyone else's pleasure"?   Earlier poster's comment about "taking pleasure in inflicting cruelty on animals" did, it seems to me, define a "pleasure" that clearly is not Jane Shillings.....

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: The Shambles
Date: 27 Feb 05 - 06:34 AM

I challenge those of you who are concerned about the circumstances of a foxes end to visit a slaughterhouse, and pronounce themselves totally happy with the emthods used, and the cattle rolling their eyes in fear as ths slaughterman approaches. No it isn't pretty but it's something that's done thousands of times every day in the UK, and I believe that some of the people who do it enjoy their work!

Yet more 'crimson kippers' - but I will bite. For I would encourage all of us to visit slaughterhouses and I would even suggest that schools should organise visits for all their pupils.

As an ex-slaughterman who has observerved this in (some of) my fellow workers - and I would agree it is a sad fact that their are some individuals who do enjoy this killing - and not just as the expected customary pride in doing a good professional job of work. I have come to the conclusion that there are simply some people who are totally insenitive or who actually enjoy inflicting cluelty and can find many excuses to justify it.

Many people are not, and will never be satisfied with the methods currently used in rearing and killing animals for food - there is a long way to go and possibly we may all eventually decide that this is a price that we should not expect animals to pay? But these methods have been improved and are under constant review and reflect our concern and the considerable pressure to inprove them further. If we follow the line of reasoning that appears to be suggested here by some - we should be moving in the opposite direction and all indulge and enjoy inflicting cruelty?

That as all these animals are going to die - for food or because they are judged by us to be pests - the comparisons and suggestion appears to be that we may as well obtain as much sporting pleasure from the manner of their death as we can. It would I am sure be thought by some to be great fun to also dress-up to drive sheep and cattle to the doors of their death - with people riding hunters and with baying hounds.

I can see nothing honourable in chasing, terrifying, exhausting and eventually killing any animal by allowing other (well-fed) animals to tear them apart - for the sporting pleasure some participants may obtain from inflicting this particular form of needles cruelty.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 27 Feb 05 - 07:37 AM

" - the comparisons and suggestion appears to be that we may as well obtain as much sporting pleasure from the manner of their death as we can."

Well there you go, that is why this argument will never end, as people will take meanings and intentions that were never there, out of what other people say. Nobody has said that they do it for the enjoyment of any cruelty that may be involved, and that cruelty or lack of cruelty is a value judgement made by the persons involved on both sides of the argument. Most of the anti cruelty perceptions are arrived at by anthropomorphising the animals involved, and as most people don't even seem to be able to put themselves in another person's shoes, what price their judgement on behalf of dumb animals?
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,*Laura*
Date: 27 Feb 05 - 05:39 PM

GUEST - Nearly every town or city has a large fox population - and in every town or city with a fox population there are people hired to kill these foxes that get in the way. And this amounts to thousands or foxes that don't even get a chance to run away. they are just shot. Or trapped. Or poisoned.
I was completely anti-hunt at one point - until I learnt more about it. I suggest you do the same before attacking hunts too fiercly.

xLx

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Feb 05 - 07:53 PM

But if hunting foxes with hounds only kills 6% of the fox population, it isnt carried out as a means of controlling numbers. So why do you think it is done?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 01:52 AM

Most of the anti cruelty perceptions are arrived at by anthropomorphising the animals involved, and as most people don't even seem to be able to put themselves in another person's shoes, what price their judgement on behalf of dumb animals?

And earlier

The fox now, well he is an animal unused to predation because man has killed off all his natural predators, so I suppose it awakens and sharpens an old instinct, and the clever ones [aren't they all supposed to be wily?] escape from the hunt and continue doing their own predation on cats, lambs, baby birds, hedgehogs etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 02:13 AM

Nobody has said that they do it for the enjoyment of any cruelty that may be involved, and that cruelty or lack of cruelty is a value judgement made by the persons involved on both sides of the argument.

It would be more honest if folk did just come out and say this - for that is what all the excuses, comparisons and other 'red herrings' are in effect supporting. I think the argument will just go on if one side continues to ignore or belittle the only real issue at stake - and continues to excuse any form of cruelty inflicted only for sporting pleasure.

Perhaps perceptions of what is inflicting needless cruelty should be based more of those who are on the receiving end of it - rather than those who obtain pleasure in inflicting it? The latter perhaps should not have a say at all?

I suggest that if the punishment for speeding etc were for you to be chased across the countryside by hounds baying for your blood and encouraged to attack and bite you when you were eventually exhausted - you may consider this to be a cruel punishment, a little unfair and would wish the law to be changed to offer you some protection? I would agree with you too.

What would your opinion then be of those who thought there was no cruelty involved in this practice - or it was deserved - or that those chased were somehow not knowledgable enough to understand the reasons or appreciate the thrill and fun of it?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 03:02 AM

I was completely anti-hunt at one point - until I learnt more about it. I suggest you do the same before attacking hunts too fiercly.

Now that just about every hunt in the land has demonstrated that it is possible for them to meet as usual and have a great social day out - without inflicting any cruelty at all and there is no reason why this should not continue - why would you now wish to re-insert the only element that remains at issue?

Most people do not attack hunts (fiercly or otherwise) - they just do not think that inflicting any cruelty for sporting pleasure is acceptable. Without this aspect - those who may continue to wish to stop other folk from dressing up as they wish - to gather and ride (or walk) around the countryside - will not have any support from me - nor I suspect from many others.

So if you must continue to post on this issue - will you please explain why you think that inflicting needless cruelty - for the sporting pleasure of a few in this particular practice - should be made legal? If you don't think this cruelty is necessary - please just get on and ride with these hunts and have a good day out....

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,Puzzled
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 03:50 AM

So the estimated 91 foxes that died on the first day of your 'acceptable' hunting did so with smiles on their little furry faces, secure in the knowledge that their deaths were somehow different?
Most odd.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 05:26 AM

So the estimated 91 foxes that died on the first day of your 'acceptable' hunting did so with smiles on their little furry faces, secure in the knowledge that their deaths were somehow different?

If these foxes were not torn apart by hounds - then it was 'different'. Whether this was 'acceptable' is open to debate. It would appear to have been legal. We may have to just settle for that.......

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 05:30 AM

laura in which city is it legal to poison foxes?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 11:03 AM

""So the estimated 91 foxes that died on the first day of your 'acceptable' hunting did so with smiles on their little furry faces, secure in the knowledge that their deaths were somehow different?
Most odd.""

See anthropomorphism.!!
G

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,*Laura*
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 02:04 PM

I don't know the law on your point GUEST - but in every city foxes are being 'dealt with' in one way or another. Whether it's legal or not appears to be a diferent question.

xLx

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,bdh
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 02:28 PM

Nearly every town or city has a large fox population - and in every town or city with a fox population there are people hired to kill these foxes that get in the way. And this amounts to thousands or foxes that don't even get a chance to run away. they are just shot. Or trapped. Or poisoned.

Which cities poison foxes laura? And if hunting with hounds only kills 6% of the fox population, it isn't carried out as effective number controlling exercise , so why do you think it is done?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,*Laura*
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 04:10 PM

I think a number of people have made it fairly obvious that hunting is done for enjoyment. WHether I agree with that or not is another question.
ANd for the first question - read the above post! I'm not linking the two as methods of fox - control - I'm asking why are people not more concerned about this than hunting as more foxes are killed in this way that through hunts!!

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,bdh
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 04:17 PM

so which cities poison foxes hire people to poison foxes? you must know, you used it as part of your argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,bdh
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 04:19 PM

thanks by the way for admitting why you think people do it. very honest of you. but don't use baseless facts to prove a non existent point.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 04:20 PM

Yes but as we all know foxes that are poisoned or run over by a car always have a smile on their faces.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,bdh
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 04:31 PM

poisoning of foxes is illegal, by now laura knows that. she can not name one city that 'hires people' to poison them. she knows hunting with hounds is not an effective control method. she admits (very honestly) it is done for pleasure.

knowing all this she is not as completely anti hunt as before. puhleaze.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,*Laura*
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 04:41 PM

Oh puhleaze - yourself!
I've always ALWAYS said that I am not pro-hunt, I'm anti-ban. ALWAYS. And just for the record - I've never been hunting.

Ok - so maybe they don't poison them. So I got a detail wrong. The facts are still the same, although I don't know the exact statistics (I'll look them up in a minute as I'm obviously making it all up) FOXES ARE KILLED IN TOWNS AND CITIES EVERY YEAR, EVERY DAY, BY PEOPLE WHO DON'T WANT THEM THERE.
People who don't want them there becasue they mess up their lawns and tear open their rubbish and make a noise and are a general nuisance. They are killed in far bigger numbers than hunts ever did - but becasue people associate hunting with this class-issue, they have a bigger problem with it than with this very effective (whether it's right or not - it's effective) method of fox-control.
Maybe if people didn't take up so much space on the planet with their crappy towns then there wouldn't be a fox problem in every city. (alright - you'll shoot me for that so I'll say most cities)

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,bdh
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 04:46 PM

don't use capitals to show your anger at talking shite. it's bad manners.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 04:57 PM

Almost as bad as flaming. Laura is right foxes are being poisoned in cities and in the countryside, try telling the people who do it that it is illegal, that'll give them a good laugh, don't think it'll stop them doing it either!
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,*Laura*
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 05:03 PM

bdh - but you can see I'm right. Just becasue something is the law - doesn't mean people don't break the law. Just look at saturday 19th!
Anyway - I'm disinvolving myself in this argument with you now. It's getting repetetive.

xLx

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,bdh
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 05:10 PM

you are also unable to articulate an argument that defends killing foxes for pleasure. Glad you admitted why it's done though. Tally ho .

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,*Laura*
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 05:14 PM

That's becasue there isn't an argument that defends killing foxes for pleasure.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,bdh
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 05:17 PM

so why were you bemoaning the fact that the ban came into force before you had a chance to try it? what part of killing animals for pleasure particularly whet your appetite?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,*Laura*
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 05:22 PM

*sigh*
It wasn't the killing I was interested in. It was the riding. fast. in good company.

To save you the trouble of your next probably post -
Yes I would go drag hunting but I've never seen a drag hunt organised around here.
Yes I expect there will be more organised now there is a hunting ban.
Yes I expect at some point in the future I will go on one.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,bdh
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 05:28 PM

congratulations then on your recent epiphany in discovering people can ride fast and in good company without a foxes death at the end.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,*Laura*
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 05:32 PM

I don't mean to be rude but I am quite bored with this repetetive and seemingly pointless loop we are stuck in.
Shall we just end it and agree to nod at each other from opposite sides of the room?
(at the hunt ball maybe?........... no sorry. I'm only joking)

xLx

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 06:08 PM

Look..as Tony would say. It's simple. There's us and there's them. Us don't hunt and couldn't imagine ever doing so, and there's them that do.
There's us that didn't vote for Thatcher and couldn't imagine ever doing so, and there's them that did.
There's us that don't eat meat, and there's them that do.
There's them and us, always have been always will be.
But by LAW and the will of the people as evidenced by their votes, we get our say on hunting.
We ask them to accept it as we've accepted their law.
That's democracy!

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,bdh
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 06:17 PM

Hate to bore you, then don't make unbelievably crass statements such as, you wished you had a chance to experience a fox hunt before the ban came into force. And yes, you did make that crass statement.

And it took the legislation to come into force for you to realise, "Hey, maybe I can ride without being part of a fox hunt...what a radical concept?". People have been doing that for centuries laura, you should get out more.

So the legislation saved you from taking part in an activity that kills foxes for pleasure. Aren't you lucky, you wouldn't want that on your conscience would you.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 06:22 PM

bdh can you not conduct an argument or a discussion without talking down to or trying to belittle the other person? Sounds more like brow beating than discussing to me!
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,*Laura*
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 06:27 PM

wtf!?!?
I'm sorry - I genuinely have no idea what you are talking about. Yeh sure I made that statement - I do wish I could have had a chance to ride in a fox hunt before they banned it. However it didn't happen.

Your other two statements - sorry. You've lost me.
Sure - I ride without hunting. Uhh... yeh. .... and?

And I don't know what's happening in the last statement. I think you are getting a little confused.

xLx

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,bdh
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 06:29 PM

Telling her to fuck off and grow up would have been belittling. Getting her to view the world through the holes in her argument was kinder.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 06:33 PM

Woah....hostility... :0)

I've got an idea....bring back hunting, but make it useful. Fox burgers....fox fur coats....(not faux fox fur coats)....rugs, curries, bras (hey, who knows? somebody out there must be hankering after a fox fur bra...)....maybe even wigs! I always wanted to be a redhead...

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 07:02 PM

"Telling her to fuck off and grow up would have been belittling. "

Nah, i reckon it'd just be a more stylish way to lose the argument...:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 02:09 AM

Just becasue something is the law - doesn't mean people don't break the law. Just look at saturday 19th!

Well yes - I am sure that I would have accidently broke a speed limit at some point, driving my car on that Saturday and every other day. But according to the reports that I read - no hunts were breaking the law on that day - openly or otherwise.

But the argument for you to choose to support or not now - is whether to waste time and energy in trying to make the inflicting this particular sporting cruelty - legal again. If all the criticsm levelled, considers that it was not worth all the political effort of introducing this law - it is surely not worth the same effort to change it. Or is this yet another double-standard for the pro-sporting-cruelty lobby to support?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Gervase
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 04:01 AM

*sigh*
The canard about the will of the people keeps getting trotted out. When did we get to exercise that will? Is the perceived will of the people always right (particularly on castrating rapists, burning paedophiles and hanging asylum seekers and Morris dancers)? Will someone answer that?
And the spin on the claim that >i>only six percent of the fox population is killed by hunting is daft. No-one is suggesting that the fox be made extinct. The point is to control a population to ensure that it does not cause economic or ecological damage. Six per cent is a lot of foxes. Annual culls of other species can sometimes take less than that (some deer herds on upland moors, for example). As a figure it's irrelevant when you actually look at it.
As for wasting time - do I waste my time on fighting the ban on foxhunting or the imposition of PELs? They've both pissed off a lot of people and both have stirred up a minority to rail at the government. It's a tough call!

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 04:24 AM

Call the red herring police immediately officer!

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,Sgt Mackrell D. Gudgeon
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 04:43 AM

Hellew, hellew, hellew... What's all 'is 'ven

My gills have been drying out all day

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 05:26 AM

Well said Gervase. "democracy" my arse! "will of the people" my arse! What percentage of the electorate voted for this bunch of nannys? Wasn't it something like 42%?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 06:55 AM

more than voted for any other party, and that's how our system works!

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 06:57 AM

The only true domocracy is proportional representation and you know it! Not likely to happen though is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 06:57 AM

300. Tally ho!

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Gervase
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 07:23 AM

What's all this 'red herring' and 'crimson kipper' nonsense? Maybe I'm being naive, but using facts, comparisons and examples to back an argument seems pretty normal to me.
Trouble is, there seem to be some here who seem to think that they can be convincing merely by standing on top of the heap and shouting the loudest.
Can anyone climb down from the heap and convince me that 'the will of the people' has been expressed in this case and, if so, why it shouldn't be applied in other contentious areas as well.
The ban itself is a government decision - like the PEL system. Can anyone defend both? And, if it is truly 'the will of the people' can anyone also defend the popular will to restore the death penalty?
Come on, fellas, let's have some consistency and logic here!
It's sad that the Daily Mail mentality has lodged itself so deeply in our national psyche...

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 07:51 AM

It was in the party manifesto, I know I delivered leaflets in support of it. Hanging was not in any manifesto. We vote on what's in the manifesto's it's all we get. If the winner than carries out a manifesto pledge then that's also the nearest we get to the will of the people who voted knowing that the issue would be resolved.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Gervase
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 08:14 AM

The 1997 Labour Party manifesto pledged "a free vote in Parliament on whether hunting with hounds should be banned by legislation". It didn't, and Michael Foster had to bring in a private member's bill to air the issue - a bill which ran out of time.
By the 2001 manifesto this had been relegated to a free vote to "enable Parliament to reach a conclusion on the issue of hunting with dogs". No pledge to ban hunting, and not the same thing at all.
The 2003 Government bill which resulted from thaat manifesto pledge would have instituted a system of licensing and regulating hunts rather than a ban. The ammendments to that bill put forward by anti-hunting MPs which resulted in the current ban were originally described by the government as 'wrecking amendments'. However, with the back benches in ferment over the decision to go to war in Iraq, the government suddenly became more amenable to amendments.
Strangely inconsistent, when this is supposed to be an issue where there can be no moral equivocation.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 09:18 AM

Guest at 06:55 I regret to say that your analysis of how this Labour [Phtoooey!] party won the last general election is somewhat wide of the mark. It is a common belief, and may account for the amount of voter apathy, that governments are elected by a mojority of the people, this is untrue. It is also a canard, [fed up with herrings]
The present Labour [Phtooey!] party won the 2001 election with 24.2% of a vote of 26,366,992, which is a total of 6,380,812votes. That is the "majority" that is imposing their will on the British people. This is from an electorate of 44,401,238, stinks doesn't it?
Figures here
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 09:57 AM

quick officer the herrings are coming.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 10:08 AM

The ban itself is a government decision - like the PEL system. Can anyone defend both?

Probably not but - like them or not - you do have to accept both pieces of legislation as fact - and now proceed on that basis.

The point is to control a population to ensure that it does not cause economic or ecological damage.

The 'crimson kipper' list has been endless. The claim that this cruel method has any effect on controlling fox numbers is the 'fatest halibut' of them all. This has been recently demonstrated this for us by the fact that hunts can kill far more foxes by flushing and shooting them. Yet still the smelly old fish is 'plaiced' before us - as if it were fresh-caught and relevant.

It is now a fact that this law is now in force - there is no longer any 'fight against the ban' - to draw every grievance (real or imagined) into and to hide behind.

The issue now is a simple one that stands alone. Do you support moves to make legal again - the tearing apart of terrified and exhausted foxes by hounds - only for the sporting pleasure of a few?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 10:47 AM

It begins to look like more folk go fox hunting than voted for Tory Blur Giok ¦¬]

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 10:54 AM

crochet.chess.quad riding.skiing.monopoly.killing animals for fun.badminton.darts.snooker.ballet.hiking.photography.reading.knitting.football.rugby.swimming.curling.writing.karate.tai kwondo.

roll up roll up. spot the odd one out and win a carcus.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 11:01 AM

'crochet' is the odd one out, as it should have benn spelt 'croquet.' Could you post the carcase directly to my house please? ,/font>

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 11:17 AM

... say he, spelling 'benn'

Good on ya, Villa Lobos

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 11:19 AM

Shit! Shit! Shit! You have me Sir! I will have to post a dead fox to you now!

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Gervase
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 11:53 AM

Too bloody right would I support moves to make fox-hunting legal again!
And, according to the latest MORI poll, the numbers supporting the ban are dropping dramatically. Which rather knocks the old 'will of the people' canard on the head.

I'd also be interested to know what Lord Burns, who chaired the Inquiry into Hunting with Dogs would say. During the Lords debate on his report he said: "Naturally, people ask whether we were implying that hunting is cruel…The short answer to that question is no." He also stated that, "If hunting were subject to a ban, I have little doubt that at least an equivalent number of foxes, deer and hares would be killed by other means."

Even some of the leading lights in the League Against Cruel Sports appear to have taken off their blinkers:

Richard Course (former chairman and executive director of LACS) - "After 13 years of discussing and debating this issue I found it impossible to ignore the truth and facts about hunting. I have come to despise the League Against Cruel Sports, even though I was its Chairman and Chief Executive, simply because these people know as well as I do that the abolition of hunting will not make any difference to the welfare of foxes, hares or deer."

James Barrington (former executive director of LACS) - "What is often missing from the argument is a willingness to look at the full picture and to discuss the repercussions of a ban. One thing is certain: if hunting with dogs is to be proscribed, other methods to kill foxes currently in use will take its place. These methods are not all preferable to hunting as far as the suffering of animals is concerned and some will be harder, if not impossible, to bring to account."

Graham Sirl (West Country organiser for LACS): "Take away hunting and the management system will break down. Over the years, and many meetings with landowners and others, I have come to the conclusion that in the event of a total hunt ban, the deer population will be decimated. This view is shared by many, including some who remain independent on the hunting issue."

Mark Halford (Former LACS investigator) - "I am aware that few of the total number of foxes killed each year are, in fact, accounted for by hunting with hounds, but that doesn't make it any less a reasonable method of control. Compared with shooting, gassing and trapping – which are often indiscriminate, often inefficient and clearly detrimental to other wildlife – give me hunting any day."

Of course, those posting here may have more experience and expertise in the field than these four, in which case I await their views keenly.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 11:58 AM

flap gasp flap gasp.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 12:07 PM

Words fail him, obviously. Or is that the sound that sails make when the wind is taken out of them?
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 12:45 PM

Thank you ted; a gentleman!

I wish to donate the innards to your nearest centre for the downtrodden and destitute. Then perhaps the unfortunate creaure would not have lived to no purpose.

Waste not, want not, after all...

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: EagleWing
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 12:51 PM

This legislation says it is bad to hunt foxes, but OK to hunt rabbits and rats. I think it is legitimate to ask what is the moral basis for this distinction. So far, not one supporter of the bill has had the grace to answer this simple and obvious question. Why dont you?

I've never seen a large number of people hunting rats and rabbits using a pack of dogs for the sheer fun of killing.

Having said that, I don't recall that anyone here has championed the hunting of rats and rabbits so I'm not sure that this isn't a red herring. I don't suppose the act covers hthe hunting of cheshire cats either.

The only kind of rabbit hunting I have ever known anything about is that of culling using ferrets. My only connection with that is having eaten some of the rabbits.

I think the act is a good move. I did not have anything to do with drawing up the act and really have no reason to answer your question quoted above. It is a question to ask a member of parliament. Perhaps you should start a campaign to save the rat or something. I just find myself amazed that anyone should consider that simply because some people don't like the organised cruelty of fox hunting with hounds, they should be accused of desiring or approving of other kinds of cruelty from battery farming to rat catching.

Frank L.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: EagleWing
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 12:59 PM

"And talk to someone who hunts before YOU define THEIR motivation."

Of course those who enjoy inflicting cruelty on small animals are hardly going to say "Well, I'm a person who naturally loves to inflict pain and agony on creatures smaller than myself. I was a bully at school and have never really changed."

On the whole I don't feel one needs to ask a bully why they do it.

Frank L.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: EagleWing
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 01:10 PM

Yes but as we all know foxes that are poisoned or run over by a car always have a smile on their faces.

Ah - I have it now. Because many foxes are run over by cars it must be alright to chase them down with dogs and kill them that way.

Quite a few children are run over by cars, with or without smiles. Should we chase children with dogs as well. Quite a few of them are pests and some even carry diseases.

Frank L.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 01:13 PM

You gotta mix a metaphor or two,
Yoooooooooooouuuuuuuuu
Gotta mix metaphor or two.
Giok ¦¬]

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: EagleWing
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 01:48 PM

"I think a number of people have made it fairly obvious that hunting is done for enjoyment. WHether I agree with that or not is another question."

How can you possibly doubt that it's done for enjoyment, Laura?

"It's a dirty job," replied Squire Smythe, "but someone has to do it!"

Frank L.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 01:54 PM

Giok, if people choose not to vote, they must accept what happens. They had a chance to impose their will and couldn't be bothered. That's not the fault of those who voted is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 01:58 PM

Of course, those posting here may have more experience and expertise in the field than these four, in which case I await their views keenly.

The experience of these five gentlemen in the field - is not from the perspective of being chased, terrified, exhausted and finally attacked by a pack of baying hounds. When they have been so sportily treated to provide those following with their fun - I may give their (quoted) views more time than I am prepared to at the moment.

The prefence and opinion on whether inflicting this sporting fun is cruel is rather lacking from the perspective of the party with the most experience of all in the field and whose view on this issue would matter the most. But no one appears to be asking the fox.......

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: EagleWing
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 02:00 PM

"What's all this 'red herring' and 'crimson kipper' nonsense? Maybe I'm being naive, but using facts, comparisons and examples to back an argument seems pretty normal to me."

Only when they're actually relevant.

Some posters (not me) have used these expressions because others are bringing in foxes killed on the road as an argument in favour of killing foxes by hunting and a whole lot of other totally irrelevant arguments in order to hide the issue of whether fox hunting in the traditional sense of that expression is cruel.

Frank L.
(Chairman of the Ban Tomato Picking, cruelty to fruit campaign)

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Gervase
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 03:57 AM

I think the four from the League Against Cruel Sports have seen more hunts than anyone who has posted here, so they are likely to have a closer view of the fox's predicament than most.
And the Burns Inquiry, while not actually interviewing foxes, did carry out exhaustive research with vets and others to try to establish exactly what does happen. His report concluded that the experience of "being closely pursued, caught and killed above ground… seriously compromises the welfare of the fox" but that "insensibility and death will normally follow within a matter of seconds once the fox is caught".
It added: "The welfare of animals which are hunted should be compared with the welfare which on a realistic assessment, would be likely to result from the legal methods used by farmers and others to manage the populations of these animals in the event of a ban on hunting...None of the legal methods of fox control is without difficulty from an animal welfare perspective."
Not quite from the fox's mouth, but as good as you're likely to get.
BTW, I'm still awaiting a cogent answer apropos the 'great mass of the people' having spoken and the validity of their perceived views. Any takers?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 05:41 AM

BTW, I'm still awaiting a cogent answer apropos the 'great mass of the people' having spoken and the validity of their perceived views. Any takers?

Gervase as it was you who both introduced and questioned the validity and lack of knowledge of the 'great mass of the people'. You have already answered your own question. If you really think that inflicting cruelty upon animals for sporting pleasure is a vote winner in the UK - please go ahead on this ticket....If you are proved right - we can look forward to seeing all sorts of fun things being re-introduced. Like public executions - and throwing people to the lions.

When can we arrange for you and your knowledgable friends to be chased, terrified, exhausted and finally attacked by baying hounds, for our enjoyment? After this experience in the field - we will all be very eager the hear if these experts judge this experience to be cruel or not - assuming of course that the hounds do not rip them apart and finally kill them.

For even if foxes we able to speak and could explain their field experience to us - their bloody death may prevent them from doing this.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 05:45 AM

Public executions eh! Let me see, the initials T and B seem to spring unbidden to my mind, please feel free to nominate your own candidate.
Giok ¦¬]

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 05:57 AM

Not quite from the fox's mouth, but as good as you're likely to get.

Gervase, when you next visit the doctor or dentist - I am more than willing than to come with you. And when they probe and ask you if something hurts you or not - I will be quite prepared speak for you with my expert opinion based on my experiences - as to whether it hurts YOU or not.

I am not even too sure if I think from my experiences in these places - if it is even necessary for YOU to be given an anaesthetic or any pain-killing drugs......YOU may not agree with my expert opinion, however.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 07:14 AM

Or how about John Prescott, or is that too big a meal for the poor lions?
G

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Gervase
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 07:20 AM

Sorry, didn't know you were a vet or an acknowledged expert in physiology. I apologise. As you indicate that you are, then, sure, you can sit beside me in the dentist's chair. I may wish to check you qualifications first, however!
And I questioned the validity of of the will of 'the mass of the people' because many who have posted here have claimed it as legitimacy for the Act. To quote: "the people had ignored the 'muddied waters' and had clearly spoken on this issue". And that's just from you, Roger.
My view is that the perceived view of the great mass of the people is not necessarily valid. That is why, quite rightly, we don't have a referendum on the death penalty, because we know that emotion, ignorance and venality would result in its reimposition.
The role of an MP is to represent the interests, not the opinions, of his or her constituents. As I see it, the hunting ban was instituted as a result of the cynical manipulation of prejudices, and had nothing to do with the interests of the British people, the welfare of our wildlife or the environment.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 07:32 AM

TIME GENTLEMEN PLEASE!
This is going nowhere. None is so blind as he who will not see.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 07:58 AM

Sorry, didn't know you were a vet or an acknowledged expert in physiology. I apologise. As you indicate that you are, then, sure, you can sit beside me in the dentist's chair. I may wish to check you qualifications first, however!

Like your friends - I am a self-appointed expert on the nature of the pain that others have to endure. Like the trust you place in them - you rather have to also place your trust in my claims .....

As for checking my qualifications first. I am reminded of a cartoon where the chap sat down in the dentist's chair and held the dentist's testicles in his hand and said - 'this isn't going to hurt
ME - is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 08:05 AM

As I see it, the hunting ban was instituted as a result of the cynical manipulation of prejudices, and had nothing to do with the interests of the British people, the welfare of our wildlife or the environment.

As I see it - the attempt to continue to inflict cruelty upon animals for sporting pleasure was instituted as a result of the cynical manipulation of prejudices, and had nothing to do with the interests of the British people, the welfare of our wildlife or the environment.

So we are getting closer then?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Gervase
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 09:48 AM

The experts (not self-appointed - see the link) consulted for the Burns report were, sadly, not my friends. Neither are the 500 members of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons who wrote that hunting was "the natural, balanced, biological method of controlling wildlife, proven over centuries...Hunting by hounds is the most natural and humane way of controlling the population of all four quarry species - fox, deer, hare and mink - in the countryside."
Frankly, I'd rather place my trust in their informed views than in your ill-informed assertions.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Gervase
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 09:59 AM

You're absolutely right, Johnny - this is going nowhere. There are two sides here, each convinced of its rectitude and nothing I say is going to spark at Damascene conversion in The Shambles (and as for the other way round...!).
I suppose the reason I keep rising to the bait is the faint hope that some who are undecided, or who want to give the issue some thought instead of just jerking the knee, might find some provocative material here.
Though, at more than 300 posts, it would take a masochist to read this thread all the way through! Maybe it is time to call time on this. If anyone wants any more information on hunting and the arguments against the ban, they're welcome to send me a PM.
And, of course, it leaves The Shambles with the last word (which I doubt will have any more information than his other posts)!
I'm off to listen to some music.
TTFN

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 11:37 AM

Julie Birchall to be publicly hung, and thrown to the lions?
G

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,*Laura*
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 01:38 PM

EagleWing - I mean if I agree with this being right or wrong. not if I agree with the actual facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 07:35 PM

Frankly, I'd rather place my trust in their informed views than in your ill-informed assertions.

If you mean my assertions (or opinions) that you were not in fact in any pain - whilst you had your teeth removed without any pain-killers? You may be wise not to place your trust in me. Through your agony - you may suspect that my assertion (or opinions) - that no cruelty to you was taking place - may be a less than objective assertion (or opinion)........You would be right.

The same I think is true with your experts when they try to second-guess the pain and cruelty inflicted upon hunted foxes. I should not trust their assertions (or opinions) to be objective either. I will trust to the evidence of my own eyes and give the benefit of any doubt about inflicted cruelty - (if there is any doubt) - to the fox.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: EagleWing
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 06:42 AM

"EagleWing - I mean if I agree with this being right or wrong. not if I agree with the actual facts."

Thank you for that clarification, Laura.

Frank L.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: *Laura*
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 09:22 PM

Just thought I'd let you all know I went hunting the other day - twas great fun, if a little scary.
:-p
xLx
p.s. - not expecting any response to this so dont worry about arguing.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 10:19 PM

Yeah, and I burgled yer 'ouse while you was out.Great when yer don't respect the law o' the land ain't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,Foxy
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 11:06 PM

"Just thought I'd let you all know I went hunting the other day - twas great fun, if a little scary" Who for Dear, the Fox or You?

Foxy's reply:
Just thought I'd let you all know I was the object chased by a hunt the other day - twas horrific and one pathetic idiot on her poor Horse looked scared shitless, that was a little scarey.

No need to worry about responding! Not wishing to argue! Well on that point you are dead right. How can one argue with a gutless wonder.
Best just to express disgust and contempt and point out the fact that you are, without a shadow of a doubt, a Moron Dear.
Yours (in Pieces)
Foxy