BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: Shakey
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 06:00 PM

Would someone kindly translate jpk's offering.

Thank you

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 05:47 PM

CarolC,

Please provide some documentation on your statement "And the US government and its allies have killed many, many more kids than any terrorists have to further their agendas. "

Do you mean the US over its lifetime? Just this administration? All terrorists of any type?


The Turks are presently our allies ( in theory): Do you claim the 21+million Armenians killed as the responsibility of the US? How about the tens of millions killed by Stalin- He was out "ally" during WWII.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: jpk
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 05:23 PM

you know it is kinda funny,but if this was a bunch of peaceable people in the first place,no one would of had so easy a time of coming to the fore with a reson/excuse to do anything about it
then to if the britts and there euro neibors had of stayed away from the arab world in the first place the world would be a little different today,all the arab islamist would have probly killed each other off a while back
even if the entire western world was to withdraw and close themselfs within there own borders,it would not stop,those in power in the arab world need us badly,with out the west to be there scape goats,there own subjects/victims really might see the real reason for there prblems,and rebel aginst them[there own leaders followed by there hate and fear blinded rabble]there only real means of control is to foster hate and fear[our own leaders are learning how to play us the same way;just not as well]

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 05:12 PM

I do find that a lot of people who are apologists for the policies of the government of Israel tend to resort almost exclusively to the use of character assasination against those who do not agree with the policies of the government of Israel. And this is because they are trying to defend the indefensible, so character assasination is the only tool they've got to work with. This thread contains numerous examples of this practice.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 05:09 PM

Oops. Looks like I posted a link to the second page of the article from The Nation. The article is a review of a few books, one of them, the book by Michael Oren that was previously mentioned in this thread.

Here it is, from the beginning...

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20040531&c=1&s=beinin

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: GUEST,Memory of Martin Gibson
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 05:08 PM

Carol C is and will always be a Jew hater and enemy of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 04:59 PM

LOL, McGrath. I'm going to have to remember that one.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 04:16 PM

"Smiler with a knife"...

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 02:18 PM

Ah, Carol--again you go back to Israel---and, of course found a site that backs your views. I do admit that they probably have better debating points than you can come up with---probably why you selected that site---and made it look like it was Michael Oren's. Oh well, fairness is not in your lexicon.

You do remember London and the original thread. Don't you?

By the way---I agree w/McGrath's comment---Host/DJ--all irrelevent in this thread. I do, however, appreciate the kind thoughts and, surely, expected nothing different from Carol who prides herself as always being some sort of wounded party. What did old Bill Shakespeare say --"...hell hath no fury as a woman---you know the rest".

Carol---your fovrie radio host and interviewer of people of substance.

Shalom and Salaam---but most of all cheerio.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 01:41 PM

Iraq war officially linked to London bombing.......
Todays news.

We knew the threat before the invasion...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 12:59 PM

Why is the fact that someone is a DJ, however well regarded, seen as somehow relevant in a non-music thread? I mean, maybe it's interesting, but...
................

Pity this thread's been soured up so. It's always a mistake to respond to personal attacks, or rise to intentional provocation by people making posts that oversimplify or distort the facts, but I think the main blame when this happens lies with those who set out to provoke the reaction rather than than the people who react.

It seemed to me that it made sense for a thread more about how people in London and around were reacting to the bombings, alongside the other one which seemed to be shaping up to be more about the whys and wherefores. And I know this one started out as a conspiracy thread, but threads drift, and this seemed to be drifting in a useful way for a while. So I'll try to drift it back.

..........
We went up to London on Friday 15th - we'd been planning to go the previous Friday, but the day after the bombings seemed a bit soon. Still you can't put things off too long, or you'd never do anything.

Can't say people seemed particularly nervous, either on the train, the tube or the riverbus we took down to Kew Gardens, which was our destination. They checked the bags on the boat going out, but for some reason not coming back. (Incidentally the boat going out had a plaque on the wall and a poster explaining how it had been one of those which took part in the Dunkirk evacuation. These boats last a long time)

On the way back we stopped off in Trafalgar Square, where they were showing the First Night of the Proms on a giant screen. Thinnish crowd, but that might have been because it was Michael Tippet's music, rather than because of bombs. Normal mixed up London crowd. We noticed a lady in full head-to toe burkha sitting on a bench listening to the music.

One thing, on the way home, first on a bus and then on a train, a fellow passenger was eager to start a conversation with us, which normally doesn't tend to happen with Londoners. Maybe that might have reflected a reaction to the odd times, and a way of dispelling the tension - if people travelling by Public Transport in London became a bit friendlier instead of ignoring each other that would be an unlooked for and healthy by-product of the bombs.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 12:40 PM

Michael Oren (among others).

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 11:20 AM

Oh, good. That means I don't have to ignore Mr. Hogan (yet).

Hulk, I think you misunderstand the source of my amusement. I'm not laughing because I don't believe Bill H is a DJ. I'm laughing because the term "DJ" is so perfectly apt in this particular case..

Now Ron Olesko, I have some respect for. He is a serious professional who deserves the designation of "radio announcer" rather than DJ. He's not a vain little peacock, or a prima donna. And he's a kind and conscientious human being.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 17 Jul 05 - 08:28 PM

Now we see---as if we did not know the trouble with screen names. For a long while now I have objected to people not posting their real names---as I do.   Carol C has a point---she cannot believe shat she sees.   Too many people---and some who post here, probably, use various names.   I don't.

I have not met "H Hogan"(only heard about his wrestling career) ---do not know him, but certainly express my thanks for his kind words and courtesy.   The proof of his identity is that he knows of one of my other 2 programs (Sunday Simcha--Jewish oriented and with a tilt toward "folk" in the Jewish tradition). I have never mentioned it here. Nor the 3d program---Tabletalk which chats w/ people in arts and lit---and---Carol---you will love this--one of my guests was the author of a book on the 1967 War in Israel.   Michael Oren. A scholar that I doubt you would debate very well.

In any case I just wanted to clear up the problem some have with identity and the internet. I am--ME. No other person. WOujld that we all kept our true identities.

Now---with the kidnapping of the thread by certain zealots--I hesitate to use Carol's favorite word---Trolls---perhaps we can get back to a serious contemplation of the sad events of recent history in London---which is what this started out to be.

The One--The Only---and you will note on this list there are others of us who are using our real names for the sake of truth in "advertising"

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jul 05 - 12:13 PM

Shakey, the supporter of state sponsored terrorism said:

Tell that to the family of Theo Van Gogh. "Naive" doesn't even come close.

That's an interesting point. Has that murder been officially designated as "terrorism"? If it has, then I guess we'll have to put the murder of Yitzhak Rabin in the category of terrorism as well. Yes, that certainly does open up a whole other interesting can of worms.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: Shakey
Date: 17 Jul 05 - 06:09 AM

carolC, the terrorist supporter said:

The "terrorists'" agenda is to get us to leave them alone and stop killing them and their kids. Our agenda is to occupy their land and steal and/or take control of their resources.

Tell that to the family of Theo Van Gogh. "Naive" doesn't even come close.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Jul 05 - 04:25 AM

The majority here on Mudcat and in the media seem to be of the opinion thatto attempt to rationalise the London bombings is a bad thing.

The current thinking from most of us is that we should continue the "War on Terror", tighten up on civil rights at home and generally never give in to the terrorists, without giving any regard to whether this course of action has worked in the past.

Blair appeared on TV today, saying that to link the London bombings with UK foreign policy was ludicrous, without giving any credible reason for his statement.

In most of the past conflicts involving terrorist action,where military force was used against the terrorists, the terrorist were not defeated, by ended up achieving most of their objectives.
The examples of Northern Ireland, Chetnyia,Vietnam, prove my point.

In Iraq and our policy has produced a culture of terrorism and a threat to ourselves which was not there before the invasion.

The injustice of how the war was sold to the British people has also pruduced a deep sense of resentment among young Muslims, and the blame for this lies with Mr Blair personally, as he was instrumental in pushing the discredited "reasons for war".

The most important point as far as I am concerned, is that suicide bombing does not become commonplace in the UK as it has in Iraq, and sticking to a failed policy and trying to justify past crimes by our politicians certainly won't keep us safe....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: dianavan
Date: 17 Jul 05 - 01:33 AM

hear, hear!

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 05:19 PM

it is sick when it is ok to kill a bunch of kids to futher your agenda

It is indeed. And the US government and its allies have killed many, many more kids than any terrorists have to further their agendas. That's a big part of the reason that there are any "terrorists" in the first place. The "terrorists'" agenda is to get us to leave them alone and stop killing them and their kids. Our agenda is to occupy their land and steal and/or take control of their resources.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: jpk
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 05:01 PM

for the most part there killing each other;it is sick when it is ok to kill a bunch of kids to futher your agenda,plus if they would stop making it headline news,its effectiveness would fade fast.
the media's # 1 rule for reporting,if it bleeds it leads.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 04:54 PM

One more bit from the article. jpk, this one's for you...

"TAC: That would seem to run contrary to a view that one heard during the American election campaign, put forth by people who favor Bush's policy. That is, we need to fight the terrorists over there, so we don't have to fight them here.

RP: Since suicide terrorism is mainly a response to foreign occupation and not Islamic fundamentalism, the use of heavy military force to transform Muslim societies over there, if you would, is only likely to increase the number of suicide terrorists coming at us."

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: jpk
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 04:47 PM

well carolc [cat was away awhile] big stink if we look at a damn koran wrong,the muslim fanatics behead someone,nobody blinks.
its ok for them there claim to fame is fear,the same game our pol's are playing with us to shorten the leash,ours just haven't started killing us outright yet[that we know of]

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: GUEST,Well
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 04:45 PM

"These are random thoughts so please don't accuse me of being a conspiracy theorist"

dianavan you are a conspiracy theorist and a wrong one at that.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 04:30 PM

From the article in dianavan's link...

"This wealth of information creates a new picture about what is motivating suicide terrorism. Islamic fundamentalism is not as closely associated with suicide terrorism as many people think. The world leader in suicide terrorism is a group that you may not be familiar with: the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka.

This is a Marxist group, a completely secular group that draws from the Hindu families of the Tamil regions of the country. They invented the famous suicide vest for their suicide assassination of Rajiv Ghandi in May 1991. The Palestinians got the idea of the suicide vest from the Tamil Tigers.

TAC: So if Islamic fundamentalism is not necessarily a key variable behind these groups, what is?

RP: The central fact is that overwhelmingly suicide-terrorist attacks are not driven by religion as much as they are by a clear strategic objective: to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from the territory that the terrorists view as their homeland. From Lebanon to Sri Lanka to Chechnya to Kashmir to the West Bank, every major suicide-terrorist campaign-over 95 percent of all the incidents-has had as its central objective to compel a democratic state to withdraw."

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 04:23 PM

Here you go...

http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=7025

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: dianavan
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 04:20 PM

Please read: http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=7025

Can someone help with a blue clicky?

From the article:

"Since 1990, the United States has stationed tens of thousands of ground troops on the Arabian Peninsula, and that is the main mobilization appeal of Osama bin Laden and al-Qaeda. People who make the argument that it is a good thing to have them attacking us over there are missing that suicide terrorism is not a supply-limited phenomenon where there are just a few hundred around the world willing to do it because they are religious fanatics. It is a demand-driven phenomenon. That is, it is driven by the presence of foreign forces on the territory that the terrorists view as their homeland. The operation in Iraq has stimulated suicide terrorism and has given suicide terrorism a new lease on life."

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: GUEST,Well
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 01:55 PM

"Since the London bombers were British, maybe Blair should slap his own face."

dianavan you did not have any credibility in the first place but any you had with anyone has just been totally lost with the above statement. Get a life.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 01:48 PM

Yeah, sure.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: GUEST,H. Hogan (a real American)
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 01:47 PM

CarolC,

YOU are the ultimate troll and beleive me, other than the Dianavan, everyone here knows it.

I not Bill Hahn. I have never even met the man. However, I have listened to him many times via the WFDU webstream.

Unlike you, he's someone who is a vital part of the folk music scene in this country.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: dianavan
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 01:47 PM

I'm not always right and I'm not interested in engaging in your stupid game. Grow up.

Once again, you are trying to de-rail a perfectly good thread.

You are like the face of 911 - anonymous and dangerous.

Frankham - You are exactly right. By occupying Iraq, we are creating more terrorists. It is also a very ineffective way to fight terrorism. What are we going to do, invade Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Syria and Iran? Since the London bombers were British, maybe Blair should slap his own face.

Armies are not intended to do police work.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 01:40 PM

I can have a productive discussion with anyone who holds different views than me if he or she is capable of discussing the actual issues rather than slinging personal abuse. But anyone who consistantly slings personal abuse is simply looking to get an emotional response... not discuss issues. Joe Offer has instructed us to not respond to people who are just trying to get an emotional response (trolling). I have said that I will follow Joe's instructions in this particular case. I find it interesting that Bill H finds this so threatening that he has to post under three different identities in this thread (Bill H, Hulk Hogan, and Shakey) to try to discredit my decision to ignore him.

LOL (DJ indeed... )

hahahahaha...

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: GUEST,well
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 01:37 PM

dianavan said

"I have to admit to having similar thoughts. What better way to shift the attention of G8 away from global warming or the economics of the developing nations? What better way to cement the relationship between the U.S. and Britain than to bond their citizens in grief and dismay? What better way to increase the demand for a war on terror?"

"It somehow doesn't fit that this was an act of Muslim fanatics"

I think her UK and USA sabotage plot theory has been blown out of the water, the meeting between Bush and Blair to concoct the bombings I think you now know to be a little far fetched to say the least.

CarolC

Get a life

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: Shakey
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 01:33 PM

Give up Hogan she's not listening, by the way did you know diana thinks we're actually the same person. We must be 'cause she's always right.

Shakey

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: GUEST,H. Hogan (a real American)
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 01:28 PM

CarolC,

If anyone around here is a troll, it's you and Dianavan.

Yes, Bill Hahn is a DJ. Along with Ron Olesko, he is the host of Traditions, one of the top folk music programs in the country.

You should tune in, you'd learn something about folk music, and about humanity.

WFDU Traditions

Bill is also the host of an excellent program of Jewish music called Sunday Simcha.

WFDU Sunday Simcha

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 01:14 PM

He's a DJ!?

hahahahahahahaha...

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: Frankham
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 01:12 PM

Ellen,

I believe that pulling US troops out of Iraq may not stop violence from occuring but I do think it would go a long way to diminish it somewhat in the Middle East. As long as US troops are on Iraqi soil, there can be no peace agreement. Unfortunately, the brokers in the Mid-East peace deal have no moral authority to do anything useful.. The Bush administration abdicated all moral authority by the pre-emptive invasion of a foreign country and is a spokesperson for violence in the world.

The fanatics are not identifiable at this time. They are there but they are unseen as long as the Bush propaganda machine makes them into a mythical hob goblin. Somewhere we have to come to terms why young men would blow themselves up to promulgate their beliefs. They must be shown a constructive alternative not a massive retaliation using the same means that they do.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: Shakey
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 01:05 PM

I don't see what H Hogan said that was cowardly or bullying. However I do find you naive and dangerous. You have posted over 3000 messages - I think it's time you got a life in the real world.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: dianavan
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 12:54 PM

Guest,H. Hogan (A Real American) AKA troll - "...the vast majority of people" do not hide behind a variety of pseudonyms to express their opinions. I have no 'beef' with Bill Hahn so please do not try to create a problem that does not exist. You are a coward and a bully. Thank goodness the vast majority of people are neither.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 11:57 AM

Thanks--H Hogan---for both thoughts

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: GUEST,H. Hogan (a real American)
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 11:25 AM

Bill Hahn is one of the most respected FolkDJ's in the country. CarolC spends all of her time making excuses for terrorists and attacking legitimate governments who stand up to them.

According to CarolC, anyone who disagrees with her, and that would be about 96% of all Americans, is a "troll." Thank God that the loonies-of-Mudcat like CarolC and Dianavan are not typical of the vast majority of people.

Don't worry Bill, you're in good company.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jul 05 - 07:49 PM

Jordan still has massive tits

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jul 05 - 07:22 PM

One example that comes to mind would be the phenomenon of scapegoating. The practice of scapegoating is very much something that can be examined and understood using the questions I posed in my 15 Jul 05 - 12:55 PM post, and it is something that can happen only in groups.

And scapegoating is a tool that is and has been used by governments and other powerful entities as a means of controling behavior. I would go so far as to say that it is a big part of the problem we see now.

In smaller groups, like families for instance, the practice of scapegoating creates a schism between the ones who are designated as "good" or some other term denoting acceptability, and the one(s) who are designated as "bad" or some other term denoting unacceptability. When this is the pattern, it's as though there are two sets of score cards. Only good marks go on the scorcards of the ones designated as "good" (and no bad marks, no matter how badly they behave), and only bad marks are put on the score card of the "bad" ones (no matter how "good" they behave).

And what we see when that happens is that the ones who are designated as "bad", usually end up rebelling against the group dynamic, sometimes in the form of addictions, sometimes in the form of the scapegoated one removing him or herself from the group (or family), or by exhibiting hostile behavior within the group. Such people can often function perfectly well outside the group without engaging in any of those behaviors, but when placed back in the group context, those behaviors emerge again.

In a scapegoating group dynamic, using the questions I posed earlier, it is possible to understand why people are behaving the way they are, and sometimes even to correct the situation (dynamic). For instance, the ones who are designated as "good" have something to gain from someone in the group being designated as "bad". While they criticize the ones who are designated as "bad", they actually need someone to be designated as "bad" in order to be able to identify themselves as "good". So they have to make a decision... would they prefer to let go of the need to elevate themelves at the expense of someone else, and to eliminate whatever disfunctional behaviors result from that dynamic, or would they prefer to maintain that dynamic and take the consequences.

In this particular context, if we ask the question; since the beginning of the "war on terror" have we seen an increase or a decrease in the kinds of people who engage in terrorist acts, or an increase in the kinds of terrorist acts being engaged in (or old kinds showing up in new places), the answer is "yes". If we ask, who gains (benefits) from this increase, we find that the most extreme elements of both sides of the conflict are the ones who gain (the gains for the US government, of course, being money and increased power). The people in the middle (the vast majority of people) lose.

So, since the people who are waging the "war on terror" are one of the groups who gain from the results of an increase of terrorist activities, we can extrapolate the possibility that this is, in fact, what they want. And we can look at any actions they may take or any behaviors they engage in as possibly being designed to produce this specific result.

This is a vastly oversimplified example. Obviously there are many other factors to consider. But it does give you an idea about how these questions can be used as a part of the total picture to help understand why people behave the way they do.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: Shakey
Date: 15 Jul 05 - 07:07 PM

Sorry to burst in on carolc's party but, to return to the topic:

I assume Peter Woodruff is about twelve and a half years old, this is based upon what I know of kids who are already thirteen and who think conspiracy theories are quite amusing.

As for some of the people here who seem to go along with all of this clap trap, well, you need to get out more.

Bill, you need to follow Feminist Humour 101 - when someone creates it that is.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 15 Jul 05 - 06:45 PM

Wow---Carol---you took the course in Troll avoidance 101---bravo. Sadly you never found out the definition of that vis a vis a legitimate disagreement.

   Your next course should be Obsessive/Compulsive definition--101. Probably less expensive to get a mirror and look into it.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jul 05 - 06:41 PM

Oops. You're right, Wolfgang. I see my mistake now.

Dianavan, I don't think I can agree with you. Group dynamics are an important part of behavioral psychology. Behavioral psychology does not just deal with individuals. The size of the group is not important. Sociology also deals with groups of people (in different ways), and it can also be used as a tool for understanding why these kinds of things happen. But to not address group dynamics from the perspective of behavioral psychology leaves a very big hole in the total picture.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: dianavan
Date: 15 Jul 05 - 01:05 PM

Carol - While I basically agree with the above, I think that it is inaccurate to apply psychology to groups of people. Behavioral psychology can only be applied to individuals. Sociology deals with groups of people. To understand how those groups interract we need to look at the economy, politics and social status.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jul 05 - 12:55 PM

No problem, El Greko.


I will be ignoring you from now on, Bill H, because that's how I have been instructed to respond to trolls. I have been assured that if I ignore you, you will go away.


dianavan... it's quite a gooey problem, isn't it? If we were to examine it all from the perspective of behavioral psychology, I think we would come up with some interesting and possibly rather disturbing questions.

In behavioral psychology, you look at what causes the behavior to increase (or decrease), and you also look at who benefits and in what way from the behavior in question (if the behavior persists), to try to find the reasons for what is happening.

So we might ask these questions...

- Who has benefitted (if anyone) from 9/11 and the London bombings?

- Has the "war on terror" caused the behavior to increase or decrease (or continue at the same level?)

- Has the invasion and occupation of Iraq caused the behavior to increase or decrease (or continue at the same level?

- Has the way the West has responded to the issue of militant Islam caused the behavior to increase or decrease (or continue at the same level)?


Some of these questions are not easy to answer. It would be difficult (maybe even impossible) to try to predict how many "terrorist" attacks might have happened had things been done differently. We can't really measure that. But we can measure an increase in the kinds of people who are engaging in these kinds of activities. For instance, the fact that the London bombers are supposed to all be people who were born and raised in Britain. And we can measure any increases in particular forms of "terrorism". For instance, the fact that the London bombings are supposed to be the first ever suicide bombings in Europe.

One could argue that 9/11 happened before the "war on terror", and before the invasion and occupation of Iraq. But there were other things happening that we could look to as possible causes for that. The question for now is, if we do this (whatever we happen to be contemplating), does the behavior increase, decrease, or remain at the same level, and who benefits from whatever we find to be the result?

The only reason I can think of why the people who are supposed to be dealing with this problem are not using a behavioral psychology approach to understanding it and dealing with it is because doing so might draw attention to behaviors of their own that they don't want to draw attention to.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 15 Jul 05 - 11:57 AM

OK, let's say "snap" and move on, Carol. I will suppose no longer.

Dianavan, I agree 100% with your "can't fight terrorism with military might" statement. It's the wrong size net for the fish you need to catch. In fact your statement applies even in the case of state-sponsored terrorism, which of course neither the London bombings nor 9/11 were.

Earlier today, when I heard that (one of) the bombmaker(s) was Egyptian and had been arrested in Cairo, it occurred to me that there will be those out there who will immediately shout "bomb Egypt". But that is the same mindlessness thar drives thugs to attack a sikh temple in the UK because they thought it was a mosque, or the early Crusaders to arrack christian villages in the M.East because the males wore turbans. But the truth is you can't fight bombs with bombs when it comes to terrorism.

Police work is indeed what is needed, and painstaking one at that. I confess I am rather surprised (pleasantly) at the swift progress made so far; these things can take years. I can only guess at the massive effort that has gone on to sift through the available evidence, and of course that mother's phone call was a lucky break.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 11:26 PM

I could say the same about your remark regarding what you suppose I am like in the 3D world as well, El Greko.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: dianavan
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 09:53 PM

The face of 911 in London happened to be British. The masterminds apparently left the country before the bombing. Pakistan seems to be a hotbed of terrorist training. So why not invade Pakistan instead of Iraq? This is a similar question; "The 911 terrorists were Arabs so why don't we seek out the terrorist in Saudi Arabia?"

Why the war in Iraq? You can't fight terrorists with military might. What is needed is good police work. This could be done without any war at all. Why can't the government understand this?

I am so sick of incompetence.