BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: JedMarum
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 11:38 AM

The Islamic extremists believe that Jihad is the central duty of every Muslim.

Obviously all Muslims are NOT Islamic extremists and obviously we(the Western world)MUST be mindful of that fact in our words and deeds. BUT like it or not - Islamic extremists insist on speaking for all Muslims. They have forced their power and influence over much of the third world's Muslim population, where they dictate their will and operate through fear - and they are fighting tooth and nail for those third world countries where they have a foothold. Additionally, they have clearly, loudly and widely published their motivations for Jihad. There is NO doubt that they hate non-believers and see it as their sacred duty to kill or enslave all infidels.

Look at these widely published views on the motivation for Jihad:

Source: http://www.islamreview.com/articles/humanrights.shtml

"Jihad ideology separates humanity into two hostile blocs: the community of Muslims (Dar ul-Islam), and the infidel non-Muslims (Dar ul-Harb). Allah commands the Muslims to conquer the entire world in order to rule it according to Koranic law. Hence Muslims must wage a perpetual war against those infidels who refuse to submit. This is the motivation for jihad."
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Source Qur'an (Verse of the Sword):
"Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is forgiving, merciful"

Source Qur'an (Sura 9:5): says that "regular worship" and "pay the poor-due" are two primary requirements of every Muslim.

Source: Sahih Bukhari, a most widely known and respected collection Muslim traditions of thoughts of Muhammad attributes to him these words, "Allah assigns for a person who participates in (holy battles) in Allah's Cause and nothing causes him to do so except belief in Allah and in His Messengers, that he will be recompensed by Allah either with a reward, or booty (if he survives) or will be admitted to Paradise (if he is killed in the battle as a martyr)."

Source: Muqaddimah, by Ibn Khaldun (14th Century) another popular source for modern Jihadists says "in the Muslim community, the holy war is a religious duty, because of the universalism of the Muslim mission and (the obligation to) convert everybody to Islam either by persuasion or by force." In Islam, the person in charge of religious affairs is concerned with "power politics," because Islam is "under obligation to gain power over other nations."
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Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 11:37 AM

It is foolish to say that the people who commit such appalling acts are nothing more than mindless thugs, or are some kind of separate species from us good law abiding peaceful people.

After 9/11 the desire for vengance was commonplace in America and even over here in England. The Iraq war was an expression of that vengance, even though Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. How much stronger must that desire be for people whose fathers, brothers, mothers, sisters, have been killed in their own homes, at weddings, in hospitals by military and economic powers which they are unable to challenge in any way other than underhand violence.

Violence creates the desire for more violence until people see that the only long term progress is made through peace. The real counter to the effectveness of the terrorists desire to produce terror and hatred does not lie in retaliatory violence against some scapegoat but in the way ordinary people in London were seen to be helping each other, refusing to be panicked and demonstrating our common humanity.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: JedMarum
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 11:32 AM

jacqui the Jihadists believe there are two kinds of people too. Muslims (I'm sure they would say proper Muslims) and non-believers. Jihad is the holy war to kill, enslave or convert non-believers.

I do not say this to belittle your point - and of course, I am quite certain that most of the world's Muslims are NOT Jihadists. But unfortunately, the hateful extremists who attempt to speak for all of Islam are.

Make no mistake - the motivation for Jihad has nothing to do with Afghanistan or Iraq, it pre-dates 9/11 and the first Persian Gulf War.

The western world could probably give in now. We could pull our troops home, let Iraq, Saudi, Egypt and the rest fall to the extremists. And we could probably even pay them not kill us very often, for a decade or so. But they'll be back, if they continue to grow in power. You may not be forced to covert - but your children will.

The Western world, for all of its shortcomings, does not deserve Jihad. We cannot change anything in our behavior or philosphies that will stop the Jihadists - short of complete coversion.

Assuming that the significant majority of the Muslim world does not want the fascist, extremists governing their lives either - we certainly can defeat this wave of hate-mongers, and restore a more reason based balance to the region and to the world.

That, I think is the common ground that all of us can support. We can argue about how we get there - but that is certainly the goal of the Bush/Blair other ally approach.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 10:28 AM

On 9-10 Condi Rice warned the mayor of San Francisco to not fly to Washingtion on 9-11.

I wonder if anyone was told ahead of time to not take the tube on 7-7.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: Pauline L
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 10:27 AM

Sadly, I must agree with Ellen. The real enemy is hatred.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 10:23 AM

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/camplanx.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: Piers
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 10:21 AM

Nice One Jacqui. But is it really enough to just passively hope other will follow our good example while other actively promote violence?

I don't think so. I think we have to be active in promoting peace and conditions in which peace can prevail.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 10:19 AM

Depends which violent acts you mean. One way and another quite a lot of people don't seem to worry too much about violent acts carried out in their name against people they don't see as neighbours. In fact they seem to see them as completely different from violent acts carried out against people they do count as neighbours.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 10:14 AM

Well said, jacqui. Darn right most people would be content to live and let live with their neighbours. It's a very small minority of individuals who promote and cause these violent acts...but the media gives them plenty of attention.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 09:36 AM

IMHO this comes down to specific types of PEOPLE not races or nations.

There always seem to be thugs of any colour whose aim in life is to foster bad feeling against others. Unfortunately, as we have seen on the 'Cat, one or two bad apples can spoil the whole barrel with negative and aggressive attitudes. When these bad apples get together and have access to weapons the whole situation becomes inflammatory. I don't pretend to understand the mindset of these people.

I would hazard a guess that a good proportion of the world's population would be quite content to live and let live with their neighbours. The problem is that the trouble makers so often can find a persuasive reason for this not to happen - look at the people in the UK and USA who still back the incursion into Iraq, the population of Germany in the 30's.......

I don't think that, given the present state of mankind, we will see any real improvment in the situation in our lifetime. All those of us who want peace can do is to pick up and move on from these kinds of attrocities and try to show, by example, how to live in relative peace with our neighbours.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 08:16 AM

Note that the unscrupulous and ruthless among political and religious leaders will ALWAYS use one act of violence to justify further acts of violence in retaliation...for their own gain...and that those who suffer will mostly be...innocent bystanders.

Consider the history of Ireland and the Middle East in that regard.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 08:05 AM

"Love your neighbor as yourself." Jesus

"Do as you will, and harm no one." Wiccan saying

"An eye for an eye, and the whole world goes blind." Mahatma Gandhi

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: Doktor Doktor
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 06:32 AM

ummm .. we going to invade Bradford next then ? or Handsworth ?

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 06:26 AM

I desperately hope there's not a repeat of the 'shoot first-ask q's later' policy of the world powers, i.e. to justify further invasions of sovereign states with accompanying indiscriminate mass murder of the natives.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 06:19 AM

It's not really a matter of "acceding to every one of the demands ever made by any terrorist group". The point is that the invasion and occupation of Iraq, a secular state where this kind of fumdamentalist terror did not have a foothold, has provided an opportunity for it to flourish and extend itself - and this was predicted by people who opposed that invasion. It was an example of the way in which the wrong kind of response to terrorism can actually reward terrorism, and assist it.

We might not have been formally "acceding to the demands made by the terrorists", but we were in practice doing what they wanted us to do.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 05:48 AM

dianavan you are on the wrong medication

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 04:57 AM

I agree with Amos. As to conspiracy there is the testimony of at least two people on the bus who claim they saw the suicide bomber explode before their eyes.
All I would ask is that those who wish to distance themselves from religion and its fanaticisms look seriously at the non-faith of Humanism which seems to put into practice all that is best in the foundations of religions while not believing in the Supernatural nonsenses that lead to faith being the instrument of death and misery.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 04:13 AM

I completely agree with both Joe and Amos.

Listen, I'm sure this has been said again and again-but do you really think that if all the occupation forces were pulled out of Iraq today, and the Mideast was somehow finally able to come to a peace agreement, (I'll stop with just those two for now) that fanatics would stop hating and stop wanting to seek vengence, if not for the present, but for the past wrongs perpetrated?

I guess what I'm trying to say is that even if it were possible to accede to every one of the demands ever made by any terrorist group out there, I don't think it would stop the violence. The only thing that would most likely happen is that new grievances would be found, and new enemies discovered.

I hate that which is in our species which is capable of such violence, but not to recognize it as something so deeply ingrained that there has hardly been a time in our history where people weren't finding reasons to fight and kill each other would be the height of folly.

-Ellen

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 04:10 AM

'Cowardly attack'? If it IS a suicide attack, you can't call them cowardly, unless you change the meaning of the word. Let's not fall into the trap of attributing only vices to our enemies (and by corollary, only virtues to ourselves).

Vicious, murderous, fanatical, destructive of their own cause, yes. Let's make sure they don't win by provoking attacks on good honest British Muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 02:42 AM

Guilliani happened to be in London and is probably and regrettably, best placed to share the experience of a cowardly, sensless terrorist attack. Although yesterdays 37+ deaths are nothing compared with the 1000 or so from the World Trade Centre, they are still 37 people who lost their lives through no fault of their own, whilst they were carrying out their daily lives. I have no doubt that the press would have interviewed our own Mayor had he not still been in Singapore after the Olympic bid.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: MBSLynne
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 02:41 AM

Well said Amos.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: Amos
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 02:06 AM

While I feel strongly about the idiocy of Bush's policies in the promulgation of his deluded faith and its concomitant fanatics, I feel just as strongly about the suicidal idiocy of any Islamist who seeks exaltation through murder and self-destruction. Whether Islamist, CHristian or Taoist the mass murderers of our times should be pulled back from their pushbutton devices and made to retrain childhood training.

The human lust for slaughter, wherever it rises up, is about as ugly as the soul can get, and if anything ever bore the stamp of Evil Incarnate, that's where I would look. I don't much care whether the brand is on the likes of Bush, Delay and Scalia foolishly promoting the wrath of their Old Testament fictions, or whether it is on the face of Osama bin Laden sending boys to hell by promising them heaven. Perversion, whether high, West, East or low is perversion and it is deeply yewgly.

A

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 01:49 AM

Seems to make sens to interview Guiliani. After all, he was Mayor when New York suffered a horrendous tragedy. One would think London could recover more easily if it learns from New York's mistakes and successes.

But no, I don't buy the idea of a conspiracy by the Western Powers That Be. I don't like the Bush Administration and I don't like the fact that Blair got suckered in by the Bushites, but I don't really see widespread deceit in either administration.

Seems to me that Arab terror is carried out becaus the Arabs feel powerless in the face of the Superpowers, and the only way they can fight back is by terrorism. Terror is a horrendous thing, whoever is responsible for it - but I can't believe it's a conspiracy by Western leaders against their own people. Both governments have too many honest employees who would expose that sort of conspiracy.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: dianavan
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 01:22 AM

Peter - This will be an extremely unpopular thread because of the 'conspiracy' overtones but...

I have to admit to having similar thoughts. What better way to shift the attention of G8 away from global warming or the economics of the developing nations? What better way to cement the relationship between the U.S. and Britain than to bond their citizens in grief and dismay? What better way to increase the demand for a war on terror?

It somehow doesn't fit that this was an act of Muslim fanatics. It just doesn't make any sense from a logistical standpoint. Why would you attack when the leaders of the G8 would be able to sit down and agree on strategies to combat terrorism? I smell something very fishy.

These are random thoughts so please don't accuse me of being a conspiracy theorist. Its just another way of trying to make sense of madness. I know that insanity is an absence of reason so maybe its like Galloway says - its the result of our invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq. The counter argument is, of course, that 911 happened before the invasion.

So - What is the answer? Do we continue to kill and maim innocent Iraqis so that they can retaliate by killing and maiming innocent Westerners? We have already hurt them more than they have hurt us. When will this end? How will it end?

Subject: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: GUEST,Peter Woodruff
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 10:34 PM

Dear Mudcatters,
   I'm listening to airamericaradio.com right now. I'm listening to the Mike Malloy Show. As it should be he is talking about London's greatest terrorist attact. This multiple bombing attack on people in the free world? is a coincidence? The reality of this "War on Terror" is said to be contrived. These bombings are not neccesarily that of the obvious. Why was the " Face of 911" New York Mayor Guilliani interviewed in London on the day of the blasts? I heard this earlier on the Randi Rhodes Show with Sam Seder.

Peter Woodruff