BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist

Subject: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 08:33 PM

Early today I watched various eye witness accounts describing the young man who had the audacity to wear a slightly padded style jacket and run from a group of men that had been following him for 30 minutes - and then jump the subway turnstyle to hasten his escape. For this he was puched to the floor of the train carriage and shot 5 times in cold blood.
One witness said the man being chased looked like a scared fox or rabbit being hunted.

Not once did I hear the words trigger happy or mistake.
Instead Sir Ian (chief of London Police)* eloquently repeats that the dead man was directly linked to the terrorist investigation and the unfortunate shooting only limited the information we could have obtained regarding other terrorists.

He also repeated the now common excuse "We had no choice...he was challenged by police and did not comply with orders!".

Others have speculated that the likelyhood of explosives under his coat nessesitated killing the terrorist immediately. Tell me, if YOU suspected explosives under his coat WOULD YOU SHOOT HIM FIVE TIMES IN THE COAT?

They say they followed this kid from a neighborhood/house under suspicion.

I have not heard who this shooting victim was. No name, no family information, nothing. Only that he is directly linked to the terrorist investigation.

Most likely this was a fear shooting. But between me and mudcat it also has the look of an execution of a loose cannon.


* I wish our DC chief of police was half as glib as Ian.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 08:52 PM

I bet we all have only 6 degrees of seperation away from a direct link to terrorism.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 12:08 AM

Its pretty hard to get information from a dead man.

Didn't sound to me like anyone was being threatened.

If they thought he had a bomb, they certainly would not have shot him five times. Why five times? What was his crime? Refusing to halt? What suspicions did they have? Running from the scene of a crime? What crime?

So he was hanging out at a house under surveillance? Is that a crime?

If a cop says halt and I run - do they have the right to shoot me five times? Maybe they could have aimed for his knees. Makes more sense than shooting him five times and blowing their investigation. Maybe they should have just followed him. Maybe they could have obtained more information; depending on his destination.

Sounds like overzealous cops, overreacting and trying to make a name for themselves. I am sickened by such foolish actions. Yeah, real heroes! How old was this guy?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 12:59 AM

Saves all that expense of a trial and a good rope for a hanging...

Hmmm, where have I heard that before?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 01:06 AM

At the risk of stirring up a hornets nest why dont we wait until the police actually release further information.

If the police are in the wrong then there will be a very public debate and questioning over the shooting, the brown stuff will certainly hit the rotating device and the police officers will face charges of unlawfull killing.

If the man was carrying explosives then they could well have saved lives.

Just listening to the evening news on the BBC and the other man arrested at Stockwell has been arrested and taken to Paddington Green police station. He is being held under the PTA. He is thought to be one of the four people who made the bombing attempt on the 21st.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 01:08 AM

Well, I have now read a report that says the victim was one of the bombing suspects. It still seems odd that they would shoot him five times while he was on the ground.

Like anything today, it will take alot of time before the truth comes out, if at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Folkiedave
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 01:14 AM

If the man was carrying explosives then they could well have saved lives.

Then firing bullets at him from close range was not exactly a bright move!!

Best regards,

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 01:50 AM

I do not know what part of the body this man was shot but a high ranking police officer stated on TV yesterday that it was now policy to shoot suspected terrorists in the head, in case they were carrying explosives.

This one seems a bit over the top, but I wasn't there.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 02:43 AM

If your child was sitting in the train, you might have been glad he was not given the chance to detonate.
Our Police are usually very reluctant to shoot, and an enquiry always follows.
These are not normal circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: robomatic
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 02:57 AM

I'm impressed with the way this thread started with a story ahead of the facts and no hesitation in drawing judgements therein.

However, Hakman has a penchant for initiating threads based on rumor, superstition, bad science, and his latest 'lustration.

When one suspects that a person who wears a heavy jacket on a warm day may have explosives ready to detonate, the goal is to keep the person from initiating detonation. Without ready information as to how the detonation is managed, it seems logical that one would aim for the head. In the event of a body shot, a bullet passing through some explosives will not necessarily set them off, the key is to keep the detonator from being activated.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 03:14 AM

Ask the relatives and friends of the fifty-odd people killed on the tube and on a bus a couple of weeks ago. And those people on the trains only the previous day, when four bombs failed to ignite fully.

Some of you truly have shit for brains.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 03:16 AM

5 TIMES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ??????????????
G.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: freda underhill
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 03:44 AM

If this is the one i read about last night, wires were seen coming out of his t shirt and all passengers on the train had raced out of the carriage after seeing him.

Apparently the protocol for a suspected terrorist (as in someone who'se about to kill a lot of people) is to shoot for the head, as to shoot in the body may detonate whatever explosives are strapped to the body.

I agree with Frank, it will be important to wait until all the information comes out.

A good thread as always, Donuel.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Terry K
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 04:26 AM

The police apparently use low velocity bullets so as to reduce the chance of collateral damage, and work on the principle that a single shot would be insufficient. Bear in mind that a suicide bomber can detonate his device instantly so causing his death is unavoidable, and has to be a little bit more instant. Shots to the head disable the nervous system so that even an involuntary action by the terrorist is not possible, whereas shots to the body would not do this. Apparently they have taken advice from the Israeli authorities on these points.

Whether the guy had explosives or not was not up for discussion. The police definitely will be called upon to justify their actions and we may well find this is part of a "standard procedure".

A question to the people who would prefer the guy to have been killed with less shots - why? what difference does it make?

I saw this explanation on the telly so it must be true.

cheers, Terry

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: gnu
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 04:43 AM

My heart goes out to the policeperson(s) who had to make the decision to use deadly force.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 05:37 AM

I am not a bomb technician, but the beeb last night reported that the bombs that are/have been used are the type that are detonated by inserting an ordinary little battery into a connection. The bombs have been in rucksacks and wires from the rucksacks trail down the bombers arm and he inserts the battery into the end. The photos of the failed devices a couple of days ago show the remnants of the bomb, wrapped in shredded jiffy bags with a battery next to it.

I agree with strolling johnny. I use the tubes in London regularly and am glad that a man who run away from police, jumped a turnstile and threw himself onto a train , was stopped. Our police dont routinely swagger around town with a gun as part of their uniform, these were anti terrorist guys who had been trailing the suspect.

I am the first one to question our police forces motives on many occasions. But I think this time they acted in the public's interest.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 06:04 AM

With all those policemen near the underground stations anyone who feels threatened by civilians could have asked a uniformed person for help. Running away and into a train must alert the police.
Before coming to a final opinion we need more information...

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: kendall
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 06:29 AM

Damndest case of suicide I ever saw.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: InOBU
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 07:08 AM

Well, as far as those who truely believe there will be an honest inquest, if in fact this is a "shoot to kill" event, as we saw for so many years in the north of Ireland, well, don't ask me about it, ask former Police Commissioner John Stalker, who was framed ( badly it fell apart as he was an exceptionally honest man ) when he did his job properly and showed that suspects were being murdered as a policy in Ireland, often innocent people mistaken for others.
As for the fifty some innocents, yes they were, and the bombings were crimes, but if you ask me, shooting suspects on the ground wont make London or New York safer, not continuing to kill over a hundred thousand equally innocent civilians in Iraq will in deed. Have we forgotten the phrase that led our nations to war? Premeptive war. Mr. Bush and Mr Blair lied to our faces telling us this was a war to keep us from being attacked. We invaded a nation with whom we were not at war, and the result was a loss of rights in our own nations and an increase of the danger of terrorism.
Frankly, the time to have changed history in reguards to Iraq was likely when the US gave him the poison gas he used on the Kurds, in hopes he'd use it on the Iranians, whose destablization happened when the US and Britain conspired to overthrow the democratic government of that nation in the 50s at the behest of British Petrolum... oh people people people, these things don't happen in a vacuume. We are not hated for our culture we are hated for our continuing violent acts in North Africa and through out the third world. Terrorism is always a crime, and those who killed folks in London are criminals, but our leaders are also terrorist killers and it is up to us to reclaim our civil liberties and vote the criminals out of our parliment and congress and out of the executive branchs of our governments.
Wake up dear friends... stop day dreaming away your rights.
lor

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Ernest
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 11:08 AM

Guest at 06:04 was me.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 12:06 PM

Well inOBU, you carry on telling everyone you're right and meanwhile we'll just keep voting TB back into power.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 12:09 PM

The Met Police regret that the dead man was not connected to the enquiry.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 12:12 PM

Oh dear.

That's unfortunate.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Rumncoke
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 12:18 PM

Anyone who runs from armed police after the events of the last month has to be suicidal or very very stupid.

I heard on the radio that the man ran into a tube station, lept the barrier and got onto a train after being challenged by plain clothed police who were following him from a house under surveilence. Even then they tackled him and held him down - I can only assume that they perceived him as a real threat and thought he might detonate hidden explosives at any second by means they could not prevent just by holding him.

It is conjectured on the TV news that the weapon used was a low velocity hand gun. Five shots would be perhaps one more than absolutely necessary - but when standing over a man you believe is willing to detonate explosives - and who might have the battery in his hand trying to make the connection, only one course of action is possible. Hesitation is not an option.

The people who are carrying the bombs in London are not criminals - they are deluded young men who are as much victims as those they kill maim injure or terrorise.

Behind them are people who wish to rule by fear. Innocent people are bound to die because they are the playing pieces in the war.

If the occupying troups were to withdraw from Iraq I suspect the casualties to date would be nothing to the deaths of those perceived to be tainted by trying to assist in the reconstruction of the country.

Anne

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 01:10 PM

I think you should all read what has been said on this thread very thoroughly. It explains alot about our willingness to blame the victim. Many of you have thought about the feelings of the passengers and the police but nobody has mentioned what may have been going through the victim's mind.

Apparently, the police were in plainclothes. This guy might have ran because a group of men were chasing him. Maybe he thought he was going to be a victim of a beating? Would you stop to talk to a group of people who were after you or would you run?

I guess we'll have to wait for my details (if they even bother to give us anymore information) but here's the latest:

"Scotland Yard put out a statement saying, 'We believe we now know the identity of the man shot at Stockwell Underground station by police, although he is still subject to formal identification.

'We are now satisfied that he was not connected with the incidents of Thursday 21st July 2005.

For somebody to lose their life in such circumstances is a tragedy and one that the Metropolitan Police Service regrets.'

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 01:23 PM

If he was a terrorist I am glad the sonuvabitch is dead.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 01:32 PM

"...wires were seen coming out of his t shirt"

I imagine the poor bastard had an iPod or something like that. Still he did come out of a block of flats had under surveillance. And he was foolish enough to have a brown skin...

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 01:33 PM

So, have the police killed an innocent man or not? Anyone know?

(PS The remark in which I said "If he was a terrorist I am glad the sonuvabitch is dead" is one I hold to. I do not agree that innocent people should be shot. Getting this in before I get crap for the wrong thing.)

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: gnu
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 01:34 PM

Not me peace... would have been much better to have the SAS have a delightful chat with the lad over tea and cakes.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 01:39 PM

Sounds like he was innocent of any involvement in the bombings according to police, and they must be sure to issue that statment so quickly.

dianavan Stockwell is a highly diverse area of London. The tube is on a major road junction. He could have run into the middle of the road or any of the hundreds of shops all open, as it was mid morning. To run away and vault a barrier and run onto a train was gross stupidity.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 01:41 PM

The number of shots rather makes it seem hotblooded.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't pretty much sums it up. I can't assign blame without knowing the whole story, but sometimes it's just as much a fault of the victim as the others. Tragedies do happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 01:48 PM

So, basically shoot who you want, and cite National Security as a reason.

There's no such thing as an innocent victim, in that case

Subject: RE: BS: of the directly linked ist
From: SharonA
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 01:53 PM

"Apparently, the police were in plainclothes. This guy might have ran because a group of men were chasing him. Maybe he thought he was going to be a victim of a beating? Would you stop to talk to a group of people who were after you or would you run?"

If I were          and thought I was going to be beaten up, I wouldn't jump a turnstile and run onto a train; I'd run to a guard at the station for help and protection. These plainclothes policemen had been following this guy for half an hour -- plenty of time for him to find someone to ask for help if he'd been doing nothing wrong.

He may not have been directly connected to Thursday's attempted    ings, but was he a copycat    er? Did he in fact have wires sticking out of his coat? Seems clear that he must've been doing something besides wearing a heavy jacket in the summer swelter, something that aroused suspicion of criminal activity. Carrying       away from a      house, perhaps? Whatever the case, the fact remains that he wore garb that made him look like he was carrying a    , in the wake of local    ings; and he ran from police and ran onto a train in the wake of attacks on local trains. I can't blame the police for reacting swiftly and decisively to stop what had all the earmarks of an impending disaster. Even if the guy truly had no reason to run from the police aside from panic, he was still an idiot for dressing like a    er and acting like a criminal.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,smiler
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 01:57 PM

I notice how the Met “regretsâ€쳌 this incident, and doesn't condemn the cold blooded slaying of an innocent individual. Doesn't that make them apologists for terrorism?

This killing was sanctioned at the highest level, and whoever sanctioned it should be brought to account in a criminal court of law.

The only crime the poor sod committed, was probably bunking the tube.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 02:02 PM

Well, they have officially said that the man was not a part of their investigation. So he was at least innocent of being one of the terrorists. What I am wondering is whether or not he knew the house he was in had been under surveillance, and whether or not he knew that the men who were chasing him were police.

Man shot dead by UK police not connected to bombs

"LONDON (Reuters) - Police acknowledged on Saturday the man they shot dead on Friday was not connected to bomb attacks on the British capital the previous day, calling the shooting tragic and regrettable.

"We are now satisfied that he was not connected with the incidents of Thursday 21st July 2005," police said in a statement.

"For somebody to lose their life in such circumstances is a tragedy and one that the Metropolitan Police Service regrets," the police said.

Police hunting four men who tried to bomb London's transport system on Thursday -- two weeks after suicide bombers killed 52 commuters -- shot dead the man who had been under surveillance and refused orders to halt.

The killing at point-blank range with five shots to the head in front of shocked passengers on a packed underground train triggered speculation that traditionally unarmed British police had radically changed their iron-fist-in-velvet-glove approach.

"The man emerged from a block of flats in the Stockwell area that were under police surveillance as part of the investigation into the incidents on Thursday 21st July.

"He was then followed by surveillance officers to the underground station. His clothing and behavior added to their suspicions," the statement said.

It added that the circumstances that led to the man's death were being investigated."


I am somewhat impressed that the police have at least admitted that they made a mistake. They could just as easily have tried to make it look like the guy was guilty to cover their asses. I can think of one or two governments who might do such a thing under similar circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 02:08 PM

The police have said the 'block of flats' was under surveillance, which is different to saying 'the flat'. Alot of the blocks of flats can only be watched from outside and the individual doors are unseen from the road.

I wonder if they actually saw him emerge from the flat they were interested in? It doesn't sound like it to me. But I don't condemn the police who opened fire.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 02:10 PM

Different people do different things, Sharon.

5 White people chasing an 'Asian'?
'Undercover Cop' might not have been the first thing that went through his mind.

The British Police have done this kind of thing before.

If he was innocent, we'll hear no more about it after a while.

And life and the war against already terrorized people...


... goes on

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Rumncoke
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 02:12 PM

The police did not act swiftly - only when the man had tried to escape (presumably when he was approaching a tube station enterance) and made a determined effort to reach a tube train was he shot.

I saw a couple of interviews with people on the train - they were terrified, they really did think that they were in danger from a bomber, but they said 'the police' - there seemed to be no doubt, when they were telling the reporter what had happened, that the chasing men were police when they entered the train. Our police are suposed to identify themselves, and it seems from what was said that it is likely they did so.   

I have to 'blame the victim'in this case. He behaved exactly as though his intention was to reach a train and detonate explosives. I don't see how the police can be blamed for his death by anyone who considers how the man behaved in the half hour before he was shot.

Anne

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 02:19 PM

That has to be the most callous post I have ever read on this board

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 02:21 PM

I totally agree with the post.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 02:24 PM

You're living in a dream world if you believe these cops made a mistake, acted in anger or pure stupidity. You might not like or agree with their policy, but these are professional, very very well trained and highly skilled cops ... they di not take an action that was not sanctioned, discussed, policied and trained for ... it was cold and deliberate ... I suspect it was also the right thnig to do ... and maybe someday we'll hear more ...

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 02:27 PM

Kill first, find out if they're innocent later.

Maybe....

Admit it. That's the policy.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 02:28 PM

From the first post... "Instead Sir Ian (chief of London Police)* eloquently repeats that the dead man was directly linked to the terrorist investigation..."

Well, either he was, or he wasn't

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 02:35 PM

All he had to do was halt when told to halt. He didn't.

People had best start obeying police orders.

Unless you have a strong death wish.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 02:39 PM

Get used to a Police State?

Yes I know

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: number 6
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 02:41 PM

It is now officially known the shooting victim was not linked to the bombings.

"For somebody to lose their life in such circumstances is a tragedy and one that the Metropolitan Police Service regrets," the police statement said Saturday."

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 02:49 PM

It's also possible that he was afraid that even if he was not guilty of doing anything wrong, he might be imprisoned anyway and tortured. That has certainly happened to more than a few people in the last few years as a result of the actions of the governments of the US and Britain. If I was afraid of something like that, I might choose to run and risk getting killed rather than to stick around and be tortured and imprisoned for some unspecified and indefinite period of time without access to an attorney or to any kind of due process.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 02:51 PM

In the current atmosphere, describing this death as murder is wrong. If someone is held hostage at gunpoint, is shooting the person holding the gun murder? You don't know if their gun is loaded, do you?

If the police, under advice from the Israeli authorities, who have far too much experince with suicide bombers, shoot for the head, why should we argue? They set out with the intention of killing and maiming as many innocent people as possible, and dying in the process. If they do no surrender to police when challenged, the only right they should have is to a quick death.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,smiler
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 02:59 PM

Any of us could be the poor bugger they murdered.

If I come back from holiday with a rucksack and a suntan, it could be me on the tube with a few bullets in the head, due to a misunderstanding.

It was an extrajudicial killing, and with the worlds media looking on, I hope it gets the stink it deserves, with the relevant guilty parties brought to account

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 03:00 PM

This is by far the ugliest thread I have ever read on Mudcat.

Bunnahabhain - You are assuming that the victim had something to do with the bombings when you refer to 'they'. Who are they? Do you mean all non-white people or just Muslims in particular? We don't even know if the victim was Muslim or what his nationality might have been. For that matter, we don't even know if he spoke English.

For all we know, the guy panicked when a group of men started running after him and shouting at him.

There is far more to this story and before passing judgement we should wait and see what else is reported. Whatever occurred, it was an extremely unfortunate incident and it appears that we are heading for a police state.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 03:02 PM

How does a person behaving exactly as if their intention is to reach a train and detonate explosives behave that differently from a person with the intention of just catching a train? Running for a train counts as suspicious? Fare-dodging means you're a terrorist?

I don't think you've been seeing the same interview as I have been, Anne. From what I've heard the people weren't scared of the actions of the man who got shot, they were alarmed because of the shooting, and then by the thought that, since thepolice had shot him, he must have been a bomber, and what a narrow escape they had had. And several of them described the police as having been in plain clothes.

For example, from the Times: The shooting had been graphically described by a series of witnesses. One passenger on the train, Mark Whitby, said shortly afterwards: "As the man got on the train I looked at his face. He looked from left to right, but he basically looked like a cornered rabbit, like a cornered fox. He looked absolutely petrified.

"He sort of tripped but they were hotly pursuing him and couldn't have been more than two or three feet behind him at this time. They unloaded five shots into him. I saw it. He's dead, five shots, he's dead."

I see the Evening Standard now says the dead man was "believed to be of South American appearance". Near enough to looking like he might be a Muslim, I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,smiler
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 03:35 PM

None of the witness accounts appear to say that anyone shouted police.

Its a sad indictment that no-one intervened to help, although if someone had a gun, highly understandable.

I can't believe the callous attitude of some of those on this thread who seem to think its acceptable to murder the guy, as he didn't do the right thing for whatever reason. He may have been deaf, aggrophophic, or a multitude of other things.

They would change their tune if it was a member of their family

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 04:08 PM

And maybe the guy was running because he'd just snatched a purse, didn't pay a parking ticket, was jaywalking, was an illegal alien, etc. Why not try to escape by fleeing onto a train? People do it in the movies all the time. ("French Connection," anyone?) Whatever he did, he didn't deserve to be executed by a gang of "anti-terrorist" thugs.

And to all you sick, horrible, racist limey scumbags celebrating this guy's death: Well, you're sick, horrible, racist limey scumbags. "Slay all the uppity darkies so we can feel safe while shopping for alcohol/bland food/tea cosies!" You're reacting to the bombings exactly as "the terrorists," whoever they are, planned for you to react. And you're just too fucking retarded to realise it. Grow some fucking balls, people. Are you that afraid of death? So you might be blown up on the bus. More likely, you could slip in the shower and crack your fragile little heads... Are you going to stop bathing, now, too? You're weak, stupid, cowardly people. Seriously, I'm glad you're all going to be speaking Urdu and Bengali soon.

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Willie-O
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 04:12 PM

Guess I will be interested to see if they ever release any photographic evidence of what the guy was actually wearing...let alone if the ensemble included "wires", which as noted are an extremely common accessory for young men these days. (might want to rethink that trend in urban areas. The wireless age is here.)

Given the initial information given, he sure sounded guilty...but in retrospect, where did that information come from?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 04:18 PM

Right on Lepus.....Thank fuck theres a few sane people left...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Mohammed Smith
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 04:20 PM

Where the information always comes from, Willie-O

We believed this guy was a terrorist the day he was shot.

Governments change their stories all the time.

Normally to protect themselves.
Not necessarily, the public

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 04:29 PM

Thing is, the police would be being hailed as 'heroes' if indeed the guy had been wired to go boom.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Mohammed Smith
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 04:35 PM

But he wasn't, Bruce

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 04:37 PM

True. The question will likely be one of why didn't he stop when ordered to do so. Scared maybe, or mixed up. Tragic no matter how one looks at it. And please believe me when I say I am not making light of it all.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Mohammed Smith
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 04:44 PM

They should have found out what his business was by now.

They should know the flat he came out of.
Who owned it.
What exactly he was doing there.
And where he was going.

We are told he was not linked to ongoing enquiries.

What was he linked to, then?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: wildlone
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 04:48 PM

The man shot was Brazilian.
Stockwell shooting

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Rumncoke
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 05:19 PM

I think the man easily qualifies for a Darwin award for his method of removing himself from the Human genepool.

By the way - 'jaywalking' is not an offence here, anyone can cross the ordinary roads wherever/whenever they like with no fear of prosecution. The motorways have different rules, you can only legally walk along the hard shoulder in an emergency. Trying to cross all six lanes on foot - or in a vehicle for that matter, usually gets at least a Darwin nomination.

Anne

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Mohammed Smith
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 05:23 PM

"I think the man easily qualifies for a Darwin award for his method of removing himself from the Human genepool"

So he deserved it anyway, is that what you're saying?

How arbitary would you like to make that award?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,smiler
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 05:29 PM

Its not a nice way of talking about the newly deceased Anne.

Shame on you.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Mohammed Smith
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 05:39 PM

It's easy to see she has never died before

But a Met spokesman has said that the Force is ... wait for it... 'Playing out of their socks at the minute'

... I'd hate to see them on a bad day

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 05:40 PM

Lepus you are reacting exactly how the BNP would like you to react, if you lived in the UK.

Check out the identities of the victims of the train bombs, they represent the population of London quite well, many nationalities and religions.

This isn't being treated as a white/black war over here, it is being treated as a pissed off with having our city bombed situation. Only assholes like the BNP are trying to gain a race hate issue from the events.

We have had decades of the IRA making us uneasy in our stations and shopping centres, now we have this.

I couldn't give a toss what colour the bombers are, they are bombers, they don't hurt anymore by being black, white, yellow or green. They hurt period.

I live in London, I use the tubes, I pay for the police wages, I expect the police to make my family live safer than they would if the police didn't exist. I also expect the people of London and those visiting will have had a sharp kick up the rear end and realise that it is all our responsibility to act with a modicum of commonsense in these times.

I am sick of being evacuated from stations for years because some idiot has wandered off and left an unattended bag. I am sick of worrying when security alerts and bomb scares disrupt and scare those I love.

I am relieved that the police at last are sending the message that needed to be sent a long time ago, that they can offer us protection.

Of course I am saddened an innocent may have lost his life because of this, but if you want to blame someone, blame Bush and Blair, and not the people on this forum who live with this threat every day of their lives. I didnt vote for them. I am also not a racist. I am a parent and totally fucked off with panicking everytime my kids go on a school trip.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 05:52 PM

don't some of you ever wonder why & how supposedly intelligent people can look at EXACTLY the same information and come such different conclusions?

"He shouldn't have run after the earlier events...."
"They shouldn't have shot without knowing more..."

You know, both might be true...

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 06:09 PM

DONUEL SAID:
For this he was puched to the floor of the train carriage and shot 5 times in cold blood.

No, it appears he was shot in HOT blood. This is common with soldiers and with police, that in "action" scenarios, when the adrenalin is flowing free, people make bad choices, grievous slips of judgment. If indeed an investigation shows that their action was not justified, then it's this hot-blood bad judgment thing.

Of course I realize that the phrase "in cold blood" has a nice ring to it, Donuel, but it's not applicable either under the justified or unjustified scenario.


One witness said the man being chased looked like a scared fox or rabbit being hunted.

This sentence has nothing to do with the case. It could as easily be true whether the pursued was innocent or conscious of being guilty as hell.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Shakey
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 06:20 PM

It's a tragedy and there has to be an inquiry. Our police can be fantastic but they also of a history of screwing up big time, thing is, in this country it usually comes out in the open, eventually.

Seems to demonstrate how sensible it is, in normal circumstances, NOT to let the police have guns.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 06:22 PM

I live in Canada's west. I want the cops here to have guns. It's the criminals I wish didn't have the guns.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 06:31 PM

As I understand the quotes or paraphrases I've read from the high police official, this individual was definitely not connected with the bombing attempt of yesterday (or was it the day before?)

Please note that he did not say "He was not connected with the previous, sucessful four bombings." Nor did he say that he was not a terrorist.

We just flat-out don't know enough of the underlying facts to make judgments about this, tempting as it is for some here (I really don't have to name names) to wax indignant and throw words like "murder" and "in cold blood" around.

I will acknowledge someone's (or maybe a series of someones') comment above that we may never know. That's a possibility. But for now, all we have grounds for is a concerned (and perhaps suspicious) heightening of attention.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 06:37 PM

Well Peace you're a very lucky person to be living where you do, it doesn't really get any better, but as far as guns are concerned some of us believe that providing the police with them will only encourage more criminals to carry them also.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Shakey
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 06:40 PM

"Well Peace you're a very lucky person to be living where you do, it doesn't really get any better, but as far as guns are concerned some of us believe that providing the police with them will only encourage more criminals to carry them also."

Sorry, that was me again forgetting to use my name (I know it irks some of you out there and I wouldn't want that)

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 06:41 PM

OK to that, Shakey. Let us know if it works.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 06:43 PM

With the very public way this was done I do not believe there will be a cover up, everything will have to come out in the open. The police will have to answer questions and these police officers will
now face an enquiry and most likely subsequent punishment.

Most likely there will be silence on the part of the police for a few days whilst their investigation team gets working.

There are just too many witnesses to allow this to be covered up.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 06:49 PM

Apparently his family doesn't think he deserves the label that Rummed and Coked spat on to him.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 06:50 PM

These are supposed to be highly trained professionals, not ordinary bobbies who've been handed guns for the first time, who might be expected to be hyped up and panicky.

So now it isn't just the bombers we have to be frightened of, it's the police. And with the weather set to break tonight everyone is liable to be wearing coats, which puts them at risk. And of course Muslims come in all colours, so if they're looking out for anyone who looks like they could be a Muslim, that's all of us. But more especially those of us with brown skins. And beards, of course, so male folkies should be particularly cautious.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 06:54 PM

They could kill a few birds with the one stone there, McGrath...

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 06:57 PM

Ah, a Brazilian! If I'd been raised in Brazil, I probably wouldn't stop for a bunch of plainclothes goons, either...

And GUEST @ 05:40 PM, you poor, poor, thing! I bet you're just a nervous wreck, worrying about the ten million-to-one chance that your kids might be blown up on a field trip. (Never mind that they probably have a better chance of being mauled by wild dogs...) And all those inconveniences at the station! What a drag! Boo fucking hoo. Quit moaning and get over it. Your life is easy compared to that of, say, most Brazilians. You should feel fortunate that you're allowed to draw breath at all.

And, sorry, stupid, but you get to have a Muslim minority for your Empire, and you get to have a pissed off Muslim minority for the actions of your government. And don't give me that "but I didn't vote for them" bullshit. You live in a nation of people who did, and, like me and millions of others, didn't do enough to stop them. Do more next time, and worry less.

And by the way, being pumped full of bullets is slightly more serious than a "sharp kick up the rear end." This man was executed, by the police, for being fucking swarthy. In London. In 2005. This makes you feel safe? You said "I am relieved that the police at last are sending the message that needed to be sent a long time ago, that they can offer us protection." Offer you protection. Presumably, you're white, then. Because anyone darker than, say, taupe, seems to be fair game now. But, hey, at least you can sleep soundly... right?

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 07:04 PM

Lepus have you met david hannam?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 07:16 PM

"I am relieved that the police at last are sending the message that needed to be sent a long time ago, that they can offer us protection."

Well, they protected you from the guy who had no bomb, but they weren't much help against the guys that had bombs.

I am amazed at the fearful and subservient attitude i see in so meany posts here.

Regardless of the ultimate guilt or innocence of the dead man, dressing and/or acting unusual shouldn't be a capital offense. And the police shouldn't be allowed to determine and execcute the death sentence. Think of what you're saying: you people are asking for everone to dress and act alike under penalty of summary execution by the Authorities. I never thought that Americans or Britons would actually ask for a police state.

Do you really think that Big Brother loves you and has your interests at heart?

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 07:19 PM

Innocent Iraqis die, innocent Britons die, innocent Brazilians die. That's what happens in war.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 07:21 PM

You can include every other nationality in there as well

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 08:55 PM

GUEST @ 07:04 PM: Touché!

*snort*

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 09:00 PM

Now be a good boy and quit chewing that stalk.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 09:25 PM

It's a tragedy engendered by the fact that fallible human beings are being asked to protect a capital city when faced with people willing to kill themselves and anyone near them at anytime in any place. This is a new circumstance where all the entrenched beliefs expressed above from both sides need to be set aside and thought about very seriously in the light of what has happened.None of us have faced this situation before and this poor man is as much a victim of the suicide bombers as anyone else they have killed. We are not in a right or wrong situation here, we are in a new situation and new thoughts and approaches are needed.
The freedoms and rights we have always taken for granted are under threat, but it is too easy to say that the state is threatening us, when the state is doing it's best to protect us from what is, basically, an undefendable attack.
The whole thing is a tragedy of epeic proportions and will be for far longer than any of us can conceive. We must learn to live with mistakes and learn from them, but in the end always remember that the people responsible for this mess are religious fanatics who wish to kill indiscriminately.
Don't throw the first stone without serious thought. We're going to have to deal with this for a very long time.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 09:37 PM

He was an illegal immigrant that had been in England for three years. An electrician from Brazil that did not speak English. He was probably terrified of being deported.

I don't think he deserved to die.

I'm glad the police are being honest.

I hope nobody uses this incident to blame him for being an illegal immigrant but I'm sure they will.

I really feel for the people of London. Its bad enough to be victimized by terrorist but equally as bad to fear that you may be shot by mistake. I hope the good people of London continue to stick together and support each other through these trying times.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Hrothgar
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 09:59 PM

If the police were watching a whole block of flats, why did they pick this bloke to follow?

Might have to wait until the coroner asks that question to get an answer, and the police will have an interesting time developing an answer. From what I understand of London demographics these days, there are any number of people who could fit this bloke's general description living around that area. Are they all at risk?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: number 6
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 10:36 PM

This very tragic incident was not the result of some 'trigger happy policey' but the rusult of some very nervous if not outright scared people who have been giving their their most in trying to protect the public. Don't forget these people have been extremely busy, working beyond 'the limit' for the last 2 weeks. I'm certainly not condoning this shooting, it disturbs me immensly. I'm certainly not going to condemn the police in their actions. I am sickened by this killing, I am also sickened of the murder of all other innocent victims of the recent terrorist bombings.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Guest, Soldier Boy.
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 06:36 AM

Why are most people surprised when the police shoot an innocent person, this unfortunate Brazilian man going to his work and confronted by a gang of hoods did what most people would have done, ran for his life.

Remember the man was reported to the London police as an Irishman carrying a gun, he was shot dead, turned out he was a Scot, carrying a chair-leg.

There was many more in England, trigger happy bastards abound in all police forces.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 06:41 AM

I would like to offer a few points that occur to me when I hear of this kind of tragic occurence.

This young man is a victim of something much broader in scope than any issue of race, philosophy, or religion.

His death is the direct result of a fundamental flaw in the way that we think about our fellow human beings. We perceive difference where no difference exists. What I mean by this is that we are all of one race, the human race.

We are all, quite literally, in one boat, and until we stop separating the accommodation on that boat into first, second, and third classes, we will never be free of the divisive issues that lead to resentment, and conflict.

We seem to have great difficulty in accepting that there are many ways to live this one life we are given, and that all of those ways are equally valid for those who choose them.

Only when we learn to respect those who follow a different path, and encourage and help them to the best of our ability, will we conquer resentment, and enjoy peace.

My heart goes out to this young man, and his family and friends. He had the misfortune to be in the wrong place, at the wrong time, and, through fear, he reacted in the wrong way. Did he deserve to die? Emphatically NO!

At the same time, I cannot condemn the police officers involved, who, rightly or wrongly, reacted to an extraordinary situation, by making a decision. The fact that there was no bomb does not of itself render that decision criminal. Their brief for use of deadly force is based on their reasonable belief in an imminent threat to their lives, or the lives of members of the public. IMHO their actions were entirely justifiable on that basis.

It is also to their credit, that there was no attempt to cover up the mistake. How many of the world's police forces, do you think, would have immediately published the facts, with an apology?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 07:00 AM

According to his friends dianavan he spoke good english. But of course you know better. Don't your conspiracy theories ever take a day off?

Of course it was a tragic accident. And regardless of the enormity of the accident, we will learn from it. I hope the police involved are treated well. I think they will be.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 07:02 AM

"Mr Menezes' cousin Mr Pereira said the 27-year-old was from the city of Gonzaga in Minas Gerais state, and had lived in London legally for at least three years and spoke excellent English." (From the BBC news site.)

The most likely explanation for him running is that he thought he was being chased by some bunch of racists. How are you supposed to tell plain clothes police from BNP vigilantes if your skin is brown?

True enough, the poor man was another victim of the bombers - but also of what appears to have been a seriously botched operation. Assuming they thought he was a bomber, there should have been someone in front of him at the station entrance when he was challenged, to stop him entering and getting access to the trains. From that point on it sounds like a desperate attempt to rectify a terrible mistake, which resulted in another terrible mistake, this time involving the death of an innocent man.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 07:10 AM

Good point about having someone at the station. It is the nearest tube to the flats. If the police are vilified over this will they react at all next time, when the threat is real? Practise unfortunately might make perfect.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 07:20 AM

Well, so far its a 100% failure rate

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 07:35 AM

Which means it can only improve.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 07:51 AM

London mayor Ken Livingstone said: "The police acted to do what they believed necessary to protect the lives of the public.

"This tragedy has added another victim to the toll of deaths for which the terrorists bear responsibility."


Well said Ken. He could so easily have used this as a police bashing exercise. Our elected representative echoes our thoughts. The mindless rubbish being spouted by people who have never set foot in the City is irrelevant.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: greg stephens
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 07:52 AM

Dianavan: was this lad really an illegal immigrant who didnt speak English? Was this a rumour you heard, and if so where? People seem so quick to jump to conclusions in these very tense and scary times, I think you, or any of us, should quote sources for your assertions.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 07:59 AM

People have been jumping to conclusions since the man 'removed himself from the genepool'

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 08:00 AM

If we give the police carte blanche to shoot up Muslim areas and continue with our policy in Iraq, the next bomb could be silent and kill thousands and still we would be no nearer to defeating terrorism.

diananvan must read the same papers as akenaton.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 08:02 AM

... The winds of Black Death....

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 08:06 AM

No one is disputing chemical warfare is a possibility, it's the shite he posted about 'muslim areas being shot up' that takes all credibility from his posting.

Some people are so shallow they will use any tragedy to further their own twisted meanderings.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 08:28 AM

"Some people are so shallow they will use any tragedy to further their own twisted meanderings."

You can read that as being applicable to Bush & Blair too, you know

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,8.06
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 08:36 AM

Yes I do know. The blame is at their door.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 08:54 AM

[e-mail]

Anyone who thinks they have an opinion worth listening to could email Ken at the above address. I have just sent him my thanks and support. But he will be just as open to listen to constructive criticism.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 09:08 AM

That's a cracker email address

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,8.06
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 09:38 AM

Yes it is. Apparently he is witholding making any further decisions until he has ok'd them with lepus, ake and diananvan.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Big Mick
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 10:04 AM

I have great respect for the process of honest debate of issues. Such discourse, when carried out as an honest quest between honorable folks, usually yields understanding and progress.

Then there are those that always have something to say based on some narrowly defined ulterior motive. They quack to hear themselves sound like ducks.

This killing was a tragic episode. But if one puts themselves in the position of having to make a split second decision ....... never mind. If you haven't been in this situation you have no way to understand. Perhaps it takes one of your kin dying at the hands of a bomber to understand.

While I still believe that Iraq was a mistake and an ongoing travesty, I will not judge those that are trying to save innocent lives.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: greg stephens
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 10:11 AM

While some people just love stirring up trouble, and escalating things, let's be calm. I for one fully understand how a tragic error like this can happen, and have nothing but sympathy for those involved: the family of this young chap, and equally well the policeman who fired these shots, I am sure with the best of intentions of saving his fellow citizens from a potential disaster.
   It is a tragedy, and can only be blamed on the climate of fear set up by these dreadful bombings. Which were the responsibilty if those who pressed the buttones.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,8.06
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 10:26 AM

Well said Mick. Still waiting for ake and dianavan to show where they got their 'facts' from. Or are they too busy stirring the pot to post.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 10:51 AM

Dianavan commented:

I hope nobody uses this incident to blame him for being an illegal immigrant but I'm sure they will.

That's a very muddy statement, Dianavan.

This incident is not necessary, nor even applicable, to blame him for being an illegal immigrant. That status creates its own blame. His being killed doesn't create or increase blame for his status.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: The Curator
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 11:30 AM

Well still of the belief this poor guy from Brazil had any involvement ? Police must have been trainned in the North of Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: artbrooks
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 11:32 AM

Swarthy? Brown? Some Brazilians are, but he seems to be pretty light complected to me. CNN Story

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 11:33 AM

I can in fact understand how he could have been shot, once he had been identified as being a bomber trying to detonate a bomb. What puzzles me us how a surveillance operation could have allowed someone identified as a potential bomber into an underground station.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 11:42 AM

Ain't that the truth, Kevin

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,8.06
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 11:51 AM

The police have acknowledged it was a mistake. Is that not clear enough for you? Are you upset that they aren't trying to cover this up? Instead they are trying to learn from it. I realise that doesn't fit into some peoples mindsets, but get used to changing times and changing attitudes. We didn't ask for these changes, we are learning to live with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Billy Suggers
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 12:13 PM

Ummm 'scuse me but:

1. None of you know the facts (neither do I)

2. The Apologists for the police just strengthen the case of TBERI* - coz they'll say that this just shows how fascist we are

3. The Apologists for The Bloody Extremist R****d Idiots just strengthen their case as they'll use any support they can find.

depressing, that, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: The Curator
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 12:38 PM

You didn't ask for these changes ? Those who elected Tony Blair into office AGAIN and ignored the thousands that took to the streets over his involvement in the Iraq war cannot say they did not believe there wouldn't be a pay day for it. The thousands of Iraqis killed in their home didn't ask for it either. Sadly you will have to learn to live with it. I condem the killings on BOTH sides.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 12:48 PM

Alot of us condemn the killings on both sides. The UK police force has acted murderously underhand in the past, does it disturb you that they don't seem to be doing so now?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 12:56 PM

The murder is done, 12.48

How transparent the inquiry is, will determine it's degree of underhandedness

How transparent have they been in the past?
Because, 12.48, that is all we have to go on

Our leaders talk of a better future.

When is this better future supposed to begin?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 01:01 PM

Conspiracy theorists of all shades: get it straight---nobody, with the exception of that yahoo earlier who made the remark about improving the gene pool, is celebrating the death of an innocent man.

It seems (CNN-AP) that he was a 27-year old Brazilian electrician, who spoke good Englsih and had been working legally in the UK for 23 years, and was Catholic, not Moslem. It is a true tragedy that he was killed.

But who ordered the police to behave as they did? My understanding is that Ken Livingstone ("Red Ken"?) had been told that since suicide bombers can detonate their explosives as long as they are conscious at all, they had to be made unconscious immediately---therefore he issued the shoot-to-kill instruction. Would a stun-gun be able to do this? I don't know--does anybody? Maybe if stun-guns work that way, that approach could be tried.

Maybe once they have the suspect on the ground, they could try shooting the arms, not the head--that should make it impossible to detonate a bomb. Would that work?


Ken Livingstone's main goal is to protect all the people of London. It seems to me that, given the events of the past weeks, his instructions to the police made sense at the time.

Obviously there needed to be an apology, and an investigation.

The victim may have feared he was being robbed--since the police were plain-clothesmen. But he was surrounded by other riders of the London Metro. It's of course impossible to know his mental state. But what exactly did the police say--didn't they yell at him to stop? What kind of robbers do that?

If they didn't yell at him to stop, for fear that yelling would cause him to detonate his feared bomb, that introduces yet another complicating factor.

Did he or didn't he come out of a house the police had under surveillance? Was he wearing a thick coat in the middle of summer? Were there wires under his coat or not?

It seems there were all sorts of clues, false in retrospect, but convincing at the time, that he was in fact a suicide bomber.

Maybe both the American and British police need an immediate seminar given by the Israeli police, who have been dealing with suicide bombers for quite a while.

I read on Friday an article which predicted the "Israelification" of the world. Is this the direction we are headed?

By the way, anybody who can't tell the difference between a real police state, like Hitler's Germany, and current Israel, needs to do some reading in history.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 01:11 PM

When is this better future supposed to begin?

When we start letting go of the past and uniting together to achieve it. I don't think they dare try a cover up. I also don't think they even wish they could. CCTV and witnesses will bring the truth to light.

Curator an innocent man was shot dead and within 24 hours the police accepted their mistake and apologised. That shows more guts than the IRA ever did. Where were your apologies for the children your beloved organisation blew sky high.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 01:19 PM

The IRA always acknowledged their mistakes, and issued very public statements at the times

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 01:24 PM

That must have been very comforting.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 01:27 PM

Planting a bomb in a shopping centre the day before Mothers Day surely ranks slightly higher than a mistake, who exactly were they hoping it would kill? Don't even try and equate the two, unless an eleven year old boy is a legitimate target.

Get over your hatred of all things British and try and move on.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 01:28 PM

Ron Davies, the British police had already been trained in Israel. That's one of the places where they learned about having to completely disable a potential suicide bomber.

Reuters

"'I sent teams to Israel and other countries hit by suicide bombers where we learned a terrible truth,' he wrote in the News of the World.

'There is only one sure way to stop a suicide bomber determined to fulfil his mission -- destroy his brain instantly, utterly. That means shooting him with devastating power in the head, killing him immediately.'"

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 01:36 PM

Guest... you were the one who brought the subject up.

I.R.A. volunteers swore oaths that they would sacrifice their lives for their cause; precisely like these Al Quaida blokes do.

If there is honour at all in warfare, then the IRA win hands down.

They could have gone the road of the suicide bomber.

They didn't.

Get over your hatred of all things Irish and try and move on

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 01:41 PM

"There is only one sure way to stop a suicide bomber determined to fulfil his mission - destroy his brain instantly, utterly. That means shooting him with devastating power in the head, killing him immediately."

I'd have thought that it'd be the easiest thing in the world for a bombmaker to rig up something equivalent to the "dead man's handle" or "dead man's switch" that train drivers have. The difference being, when the grip was relaxed, instead of the brakes being applied, the bomb would be exploded.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 01:51 PM

Tir I am Irish and lived in Uk through your bombing campaigns. I got no pride from you murdering children. Had the IRA blown themselves up in the process they would have afforded more respect. The days of the NORAID tins rattling are long gone.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 02:04 PM

Had the IRA blown themselves up in the process they would have afforded more respect.

Even though you disagree (as I'm sure you do) with the present spate of bombings, going by your logic, you actually respect the guys that blew up London a couple of weeks back; killing more people in one go than the IRA ever did?

I find that quite bizarre

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 02:20 PM

Oh, and the BBC is reporting that the victim did apparently live an a violent São Paulo slum. Like I said, had I spent a good part of my life there, I'd run if chased by armed thugs, too. He survives that shithole, only to die like this. Nice.

And artbrooks, I'd still say he'd be considered "swarthy" or "dark," at least by pasty-ass English standards. Why are so many people so reluctant to believe that these pigs murdered a man because he looked "foreign?" Do you guys actually think that if instead of a dusky, unibrow'd Brazilian electrician, he'd been a blonde, blue eyed, Icelandic electrician, that it wouldn't have been different? Fucking please.

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Shakey
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 02:20 PM

It was right to talk to the IRA, there was a point to negotiate even if you didn't believe in a united Ireland, which I do.

But
If there is honour at all in warfare, then the IRA win hands down.

gets my award for the most ridiculous statement I've seen on this forum,   the IRA and the IVF and all of them are scum, with not an ounce of honour between them.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 02:27 PM

Yes, Shakey, well the relationship was attempted to be made between the 2 organisations, and looking at the specific targeting of both organisations, the IRA could have done more than they actually did.

If the 'Coalition' and Security Forces are given the the benefit of mistakes, why not the IRA?

Al Q don't make any mistakes, apparently.

They hardly even own up to the ones they consider 'successful'

.... Who are the IVF, BTW?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 02:35 PM

Tir the respect afforded would have come from the fact that they would have removed themselves from this planet, as you well know. No bomber, regardless of colour or creed or ethnicity, deserves respect for their actions on innocent civilians. And no sane person would try and justify their actions.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 02:38 PM

Will someone put the stone back on top of lepus.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 02:45 PM

So, GUEST @ 02:35 PM, do the stormtroopers who spilled innocent civilian Mr.Menezes' brains on the train deserve "respect for their actions?" Or should they be "removed...from this planet?" I mean, you're not the same guy who keeps trying to "justify their actions," right?

And what stone did I have on me? Living underground is for fucking rabbits,, dude.

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 02:46 PM

The IRA spoke for us when you wouldn't listen, guest.

Now you listen.

I have never advocated the targeting of innocent civilians.
The IRA never did, either.

And they did apologise profusely at every turn.

You seem to remember a lot.
How come you don't remember that?

I'm sure you would be of the opinion that unfortunately innocent civilians are a result of war.

Well, unfortuntely innocent civilians were a product of our war with England.

EVERY innocent life taken is a tragedy.

But that's War for you...

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 02:51 PM

Yes I agree innocent civilians are the result of war. I don't think you'll find many to disagree. But save the 'mistakes' patter for those who gave you their loose change.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: dianavan
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 02:59 PM

greg and others -

I tried in vein to find the article which stated that the man did not speak English. No luck. I can assure you I did not make it up. Its obviously a matter of conflicting news reports. I see now that his family said he did speak English. I stand corrected and will be more careful next time. My apologies.

I do not blame the victim or the police. What I do question is the shoot to kill policy. I wonder if the public was informed of this policy before it was put into practice and who was involved in forming this policy?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Big Mick
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 03:08 PM

Lepus, old friend, how would you expect them to act? Less than two weeks ago someone murdered about 60 of their citizens, and injured many more. This was a tragic mistake with horrid consequences. I am asking, not to be a smartass but because I want to know. Did you post anything bemoaning these murders?

Anyone who has been around this place for a bit knows my feelings about the British Security Services and their activities in the North of Ireland. But, for the life of me, I cannot understand those that condemn the cause of this grievous error.

BTW, GUEST 2:38, why don't you go back under your rock.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 03:15 PM

"But save the 'mistakes' patter for those who gave you their loose change.

I hope you're emailing the Commissioner of the Met as we speak telling him, that his apology doesn't wear, in that case.

What makes you think I'm poor?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 03:20 PM

If they had just killed an eleven year old boy I would be. Like I said don't try and equate the two.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 03:25 PM

What's the difference between an 11 year old innocent civilian, and a 27 year old one?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 03:34 PM

One unfortunately vaulted a ticket barrier and ran into the tube network, followed by armed plain clothes police, who may or may not have asked him to stop, the investigation will tell us that, and boarded a train on the network where two weeks earlier fifty people had been blown up.

The other was a schoolboy out shopping for a mother's day card.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 03:58 PM

I'd expect them to act, Mick, like human beings. Use those gigantic human brains of their to think of an alternative to murder, especially after a suspect has been subdued. That's what makes us better than the vervets, Mick. These guys weren't fresh-faced rookies. They don't just hand out automatic pistols to any old cop over there... These guys were trained professionals, and they used their training to murder an innocent man. And I doubt they'll even be reprimanded.

And no, I didn't post anything about the bombings because, unlike the murder of the electrician, the bombings were the work of criminals, not law enforcement personnel. And while the bombings were condemned by pretty much everyone here, while the murder of Jean Charles de Menezes was hailed by a number of closet racists as some sort of victory against terrorism. Even after the facts have become clear, there have been statements (see post directly above this post, for starters) that he was, basically, asking for it. This is the mentality that leads to things like lynching, and I'm, like, against that, yanno?

Also, I wasn't "here" to comment on the bombings. But, to be honest, I prob'ly wouldn't have commented, anyways. A few dozen people blown up in London, while horrible, wasn't really as notable to me as the much more serious bombings in Iraq, the famine in Niger, the school massacre in Kenya, etc. The value of an English or American life shouldn't be more than that of any other life.

--Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 04:03 PM

The stone's still waiting for you stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 04:03 PM

To quote you:

Yes I agree innocent civilians are the result of war.

No one has the right to compare another's death over that of another.
You fall into your own trap, when you do that.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 04:05 PM

War has suposed legitimate targets.

I told you why the brazilian guy was deemed as such in the eyes of the police, now you tell me why the eleven year old boy was deemed as one. Like I asked, who were the IRA targetting in Warrington shopping centre.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 04:06 PM

... and you demean the innocence

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 04:09 PM

You'd better ask the Police, guest.

They have been lax in the past, passing on warnings to the public.

Which opens up a really huge can of worms, doesnt it?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 04:11 PM

"War has suposed legitimate targets."

So you agreed with some of what the IRA did...

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 04:11 PM

Hey, GUEST: Which do you hate more, Paddies or Pakis? Just curious...

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 04:12 PM

There is no answer is there that you care to admit to?

Because a Saturday afternoon in a suburban shopping centre full of Saturday afternoon shoppers, isn't a really good advert for your chosen brand of murder.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 04:13 PM

Brazilians aren't high up on his list, anyway

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 04:14 PM

Tir I can understand why military and security personnel were targetted by the IRA. I don't have the blinkers on quite firmly enough to attribute all their actions as justifiable.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 04:15 PM

Neither is pumping 5 bullets into a total innocent in front of Commuters on a Friday Morning

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 04:17 PM

I don't have the blinkers on quite firmly enough to attribute all their actions as justifiable

What makes you think I do.

You do accept that the British Security Forces sacrificed their own citizens as a PR stunt, though, don't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 04:20 PM

Because, Guest, they have, and they might not be averse to doing it in the future

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 04:21 PM

I still am waiting for you Tir to tell us the reasoning behind targetting a shopping centre on the day before Mother's Day?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: The Curator
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 04:22 PM

GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 01:11 PM Don't go on about our volunteers killing children, your servicemen were a good hand at it. And before you go on about being Irish living in limeland, your a brit. There were aborted operations, there were poorly planned operations and there were targets selected that should never have been hit.And that has never been denied. I think you would need to be on the receiving end of the news brought to a family that the police found an address on someone, watched the house followed the first person that came out of it and wacked him. Would you be as understanding ? And before you start, yes I have been given such news, and the word sorry meant very little to us. If you left the island as you have said, keep your opinions of us to your circle of friends on that side of the water. And if you want to dig out failed operations by the Provisionals, don't stop there research those of your countrymen. This thread is not about the movement.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 04:24 PM

Read my post of 04:09 PM

What about the PR stunts I was talking about?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 04:29 PM

Cue the big gun as tir fails miserably. If you wish to take the moral high ground and criticise failed operations, make sure you are not just as guilty.

Point made and case closed.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: The Curator
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 04:31 PM

Sorry GUEST, like many we see Tír Eoghain made a little boy out of you.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 04:32 PM

I never killed anyone, Guest.

What has you hidden away in England, anyway?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: The Curator
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 04:35 PM

Mustn't like buying drink.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 04:37 PM

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 04:54 PM

It's uncanny, though, that whenever a suicide bomb goes off in London, and some poor sod gets blown away by trigger happy cops, the IRA are called into the equation.

Guest has been living there for so long, he's developing that same sense of denial we all know and find so peculiar (if it wasn't so pathetic, that is)

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Grab
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 05:18 PM

What I do question is the shoot to kill policy.

For those who are unaware, there is *always* a shoot-to-kill policy in the police.

Lest people start jumping up and down, let me make this clearer. If an armed policemen believes that a suspect has a weapon and will use that weapon to kill people, he can attempt to arrest the suspect. If the suspect shows signs of fighting back or trying to get away, the policemen is *expected* to shoot them. Whether the suspect survives after that point is immaterial. And this isn't a nice convenient shooting range - you can't hit a running man in the legs, and the suspect will typically be standing in front of a bunch of people so missing isn't an option. Result - aim for the body.

Will they be reprimanded? It really depends on the evidence they had that this guy was a bomber. If they had good reason to believe he was (even though he clearly wasn't) then no, they won't be reprimanded. If they were basing this on totally flimsy evidence, then they're in deep shit.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Rumncoke
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 06:58 PM

Interesting that because the dead man comes from Brazil he is assumed to be 'swarthy'- the images of him shown on TV show him as quite light skinned.

Anne

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 07:07 PM

Lepus Rex and others insist on throwing the word "murder" around, which is either an illegitimate attempt to prejudice the discussion or an expression of ignorance of what the word means.

"Murder" has a specific meaning.

A death is not murder.

A death of an innocent person does not make murder.

A violent death of an innocent person at another person's hands doesn't constitute murder.

A violent death of an innocent person at a policeman's hands does not reach the standard for murder.

"Murder" is a legal term, and can only be assigned if certain criteria are met. Of course there must be the death, and it must be at another person's hands, and the death must be intentional. All those things are clearly here. But to be "murder" there must be the intention to violate the law or at the very least the intent to do wrong.

Whether the policy is a wrong policy is something else, but establishment of that policy (however wrong it might be) doesn't constitute murder.

It appears to me that the MOST that might be said against this killing is manslaughter, and I'm personally doubtful of that, given that the policeman was presumably acting in accordance with his duty as he was trained and instructed.

But the fact is that none of us knows the detailed set of facts that are needed in order to determine degree of blame, or where it may fall.

Those who rush to shout "murder!" or "cold blood!" at this point are clearly indulging their prejudices. When I say "prejudices" I mean just what the word means: applying judgment before the facts can be submitted--in all likelihood, given the content and tone of the inflammatory statements in this thread, prejudices of long standing against the police and/or government in general and/or the government of the UK in particular.

It's possible the policemen involved were wrong in not identifying themselves to the fleeing person as police. It's possible (though not in my opinion likely) that they did not even think the guy had a bomb, and killed him nevertheless in the heat of a chase and struggle with someone they had (wrongly, yes) identified as a terrorist. Those things (and perhaps some others), if they come out, would make them culpable. That last one, if established, I suppose could justify the word "murder", but until we know more facts everybody ought to ratchet down the emotional and propagandistic tone on this.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 07:23 PM

Definition of MURDER

"the crime of intentionally killing a person"

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 08:07 PM

That's quite a cunning definition, because it reads as if it's saying the criminality resides in the killing, so that, if it's killing than it's criminal; but in fact it implies more or less the reverse - that in order to count as murder the killing has to be criminal.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 08:09 PM

mur·der   n. 1. The unlawful killing of one human being by another, especially with premeditated malice.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 08:10 PM

The criminality of the act resides in the 'crime', Kevin.
That's the way I read it.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 08:22 PM

Just in case we're in danger of forgetting there's a young man lying in a morgue somewhere who was totally innocnet of anything to do with terrorism, here is a piece from the Monday Guardian, with a photo of Jean Charles de Menezes with friends.

"He rang me ... saying that he would be a little late because the tube lines weren't working properly," said Gesio de Avila, a builder and close friend who Mr De Menezes had been due to meet that morning for the fire alarm job. "I said, 'OK, as soon as you get to Kilburn, call me.' That was the last conversation I had with him..."

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 08:27 PM

I wonder about what is going through the minds of the police officers who did the shooting.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 09:07 PM

Just in case we're in danger of forgetting there's a young man lying in a morgue somewhere who was totally innocnet of anything to do with terrorism,

That may be the most patronising contribution to date.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 09:30 PM

Well maybe for you, but judging by the contributions of some of the posters on this forum, it may just be a timely reminder of what this thread is about.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 09:52 PM

And that's the second.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 09:58 PM

A bit of patronising never hurt anyone.

If it does any good, I'm all for it.

Beats the shit out of justifying pumping a seriously scared guy full of lead

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 10:02 PM

Its cold where he is....

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 10:08 PM

Tir Chonaill said, in part:

Beats the shit out of justifying pumping a seriously scared guy full of lead

Here again, a missing of the point or an attempt to fog up the discussion. Whether he was seriously scared or not (and I don't doubt for a minute that he was) has nothing to do with the rights or wrongs of the shooting, or the criminality or lack thereof on the part of the policeman involved.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 10:13 PM

Indeed, Dave.

Tiocfaidh gave the definition a little more clearly than you did, a few posts back, so I'm under no illusions.

Have you not noticed that there are those who have more or less repeated what the news media has said..., in the same chronological sequence; from 'terrorist', to 'innocent'

There is damage limitation being posted on this thread by a number of posters.

You are concentrating on the wrong thing

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 10:19 PM

Ok, I recant...

Beats the shit out of justifying pumping a guy full of lead

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 10:20 PM

Hi there!

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 10:22 PM

They don't like you here, Ciaran

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 10:26 PM

Perception, dear boy....

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 10:29 PM

If the fellow had indeed been carrying explosives on his person and the cops had NOt taken the shots, they would be getting the gears for being recaltricent in their response/duty. One thing I do know: I am glad it was not my call. However, the place to stop the guy was in an open area. Whay did they wait until he could bolt into a crowded place?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 10:41 PM

A. Maybe they figured while he was running he couldn't get the wires together.
B. Maybe in the chase they couldn't be sure to get a head shot.
C. Maybe they weren't close enough to him to have satisfied themselves that he had a bomb on his body.

Maybe, maybe, maybe.... As I keep saying, we don't know the facts.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: number 6
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 10:45 PM

As in all wars .... it's the innocent that pay the biggest price.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: dianavan
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 10:51 PM

and why five shots in the back of the head?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 10:55 PM

To be sure, to be sure, to be sure, to be sure, to be sure...

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 10:55 PM

With no offense, it's pretty academic after the first one.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 11:04 PM

Scholarly, some would say

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: dianavan
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 11:48 PM

From the Financial Times:

"A police source said: "The e-mail reminded armed officers they could shoot to the head if the criteria for suspecting a suicide bomber was fulfilled. It [the action] had to be based on intelligence."

Acpo said details of such tactics remained secret "for operational reasons". "The tactics are intended to be used on an intelligence-led basis. They are not implemented at random but as a result of intelligence and backed up by senior decision-making."

So I guess this shooting was, once again, faulty intelligence that was backed up by a senior decision maker.

I'm still curious as to how the cop on the beat interprets this and also if the British publice were warned.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 11:52 PM

Some English journalist infiltrated the Thames Valley (I'm almost certain) Police Force, some time back and found rascism a major problem.

I would have said 'major, major, problem', but Dave might accuse me of trying to fog the issue.

What was that journalist's name again, anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 12:01 AM

Sorry... it was The Met

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 12:05 AM

I pasted the wrong link in there..., maybe someone else more knowledgeable than myself could remember the programme I was talking about...

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 12:07 AM

This is the story to which you refer.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 12:11 AM

Thank you Peace.

Steven Lawrence!

That name rings a few bells I'm sure....

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 12:20 AM

... from one of the internal BBC links on that page...

"In 1999 the Macpherson Report branded London's Metropolitan Police institutionally racist. The report, which followed the Met's failure to successfully prosecute a gang of white youths for the murder of Stephen Lawrence, found ethnic minorities in Britain felt under-protected as victims and over-policed as suspects."

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 12:23 AM

This investigation will be a veritable Pandora's Box, I'd wager

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 12:27 AM

oops - I mean British public not British publice.

No insult intended.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 12:49 AM

Very Freudian, Diana

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Reginald Richley
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 01:24 AM

How relevant is Wilmott & Young's 'Family & Class in a London Suburb' to all of this, does one think?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 01:27 AM

Nice one, Reginald!

That's all we need!

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 05:22 AM

That's a pretty good book.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 09:04 AM

Dave O , you are the journalistic editor to the end.


Whether you define this as a murder or a shooting incident I wish to note that this crime/mistake/incident is a (micro) casebook study in the process of authoratative decisions which are IDENTICAL to the (macro) authoratative decisions which govern the release of NUCLEAR WEAPONS and not just low velocity bullets.

Tracking a radar blip coming from a suspicious direction, it can not be ascertained immediately if it is a weather satillite or a meteor.

There have been over 10 such incidents when a nuclear launch has been initiated and on standby due to suspicious data. Some were recalled with seconds to spare.

Ratchet up fear enough and all you are responding to is fear.

Should fear "win" next time,
and if there are people left in authority to respond, I would expect them to say...
"We had NO CHOICE".

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 09:14 AM

Dave O

btw, In my 20's I undertook training in propoganda techniques on my own, attracked the attention of the CIA and had a hell of a time getting them off my back. But I have told that story here numerous times already.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 02:01 PM

From Amnesty International:

"The organization urges the investigation to examine the full circumstances leading up to the shooting, including what the terms of the current rules of engagement are, including the policy which permits officers to "shoot to kill", i.e. to shoot in the head, suspects believed to be suicide bombers, reportedly codenamed Operation Kratos; how the operation was planned; how the police officers were briefed and what orders they were given; whether a senior officer was contacted before action was taken; whether a sufficient warning was given; and whether the action taken by the officers was fully in compliance with international human rights standards concerning the use of force in the context of law enforcement."

...and yes, it was five shots to the head after the victim tripped and fell.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 02:06 PM

" ...and yes, it was five shots to the head after the victim tripped and fell."

You sound very sure of yourself.

The inquest said 7 in the head and one in the shoulder. What else aur you sure of

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 02:11 PM

google Amnesty International.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 02:15 PM

"google Amnesty International." why?

The man mistaken for a suicide bomber by police was shot eight times, an inquest into his death has heard.

Brazilian Jean Charles de Menezes, 27, was shot seven times in the head and once in the shoulder, at Stockwell Tube station, south London, on Friday.

Det Insp Elizabeth Baker revealed the details at a hearing in London.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Metchosin
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 02:42 PM

My sympathies to the people of London and those that have lost loved ones there recently. Not only do you have to contend with lunatic bombers, but also plain clothes, trigger happy hit squads.

Why was a suspect terrorist not dealt with before he boarded public transit? Were the police looking for a bit of PR by allowing him to get as far as the tube? This incident would have all the hallmarks of the Keystone Cops, if it weren't so tragic. I doubt it would make very many feel more secure.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 02:44 PM

The official count is that the Police fired 8 shots into Jean Charles de Menezes.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 02:46 PM

He boarded a bus before he got to the tube...

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Metchosin
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 03:17 PM

Perhaps people on buses are more expendable. Yes, he boarded a bus before he got to the tube, both are public transit in the UK, I believe and your point is?

As some one posted up thread, since he was a suspected terrorist at the outset, what the f#ck were they waiting for? An arrest prior to him getting as far as he did would seem a far more intelligent tactic. Gee, we'll just watch him and see if he blows up anything? Better PR for the police if they do a deadly deed in the the Underground?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 03:23 PM

I wonder how his family stand for compensation now it has emerged he was illegally in Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 03:36 PM

The Amnesty International article sighted eye-witness accounts. It was before the hearing. They also said he was pushed to the ground not that he tripped and fell.

I hope there is a very thorough investigation and some reports have indicated that the family will sue.

I agree with Metchosin. Why would they let him board a bus if they thought he had explosives?

I really have to applaud the people of London. They are handling this very well. Stoic is the the best word I can think of. I hope the people of all the many cultures in London reach out to one another and remain strong.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 03:59 PM

Guest...Mr Jack Straw has just stated that to his knowledge the murdered man was, "here lawfully"

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Metchosin
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 04:13 PM

Guest, why don't you just come right out and say, you wish the police would shoot all those funny foreign men that come to your little island and get it back on the anglo/saxon track again?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Big Mick
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 04:30 PM

First to the mechanics of a head shot. When one is taking out someone with a shot to the head, and they are armed, it is very important that the links to the spinal column are severed. This is why the preferred shot is behind the ear. When one doesn't have perfect conditions for this shot, then a number are placed. This is important to eliminate the involuntary twitch that could set off an explosive, or pull the trigger on a gun.

Second, it was a tragedy. Yes there should and will be an inquest. An error appears to have been made. Very sad, and condolences to the family. I am quite sure the police officer will have much to deal with.

But I ask again. To those that are so quick to judge, what if he had the explosives and your child was killed? I am quite sure you would be right there with criticism.

Those here that just like to bitch and hear themselves do it are transparent as hell.

Mick, feeling a bit grumpy today.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: ard mhacha
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 04:36 PM

Dianavan, I really have to applaud the people of Iraq who are suffering this terrible ordeal daily, please don`t fall into the trap of believing that the English are the only people in the world who can show courage in the face of terror.
The citizens of Iraq have been killed by terror bombings from the air, they have been killed in countless thousands, why count as the US says they are only Arabs, let us all have a minutes silence at the week-end for the Iraqi innocents who have been bombed into oblivion, some chance of that happening.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Metchosin
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 04:52 PM

Guess it depends from where the standpoint of your bitch lies as to whether or not one is entitled to post one's opinion, eh? Without being transparent, that is.

If my child had been on the bus he boarded, your goddam right I'd be there with the criticism! How the f#ck did he get even as far as boarding a bus if the police were tracking his movements? What is so difficult to comprehend about that?

Susan, also feeling very grumpy.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 04:55 PM

The actual killing was the culmination of an operation that was pretty evidently botched. It has all the marks of a panic attempt to rectify something that had gone badly wrong.

A man who is believed to be a suicide bomber is allowed to get on a bus and travel through crowded streets for several miles. When he is at the entrance of a tube station he is alerted to the fact that he is being followed, in such a way that he is able to get down to the platform and on to a train full of people. He is puyrsued and forced to teh griound so that he is immobilised and then shot eight times.

The actual shooting isn't by any means the only question, or even the cetral one. The real question is, how could it possibly happen that these officers found themselves in a crowded tube train with someone they were convinced was about to explode a bomb, so that it must have seemed there was no alternative but to kill him? How could this happen in the light of the fact that a sizeable team of experienced and trained professionals had been in his presence ever since he had left his home quite a few miles away?

There appears to be a level of professional incompetence here which is frightening. To adapt the words of the Duke of Wellington referring to his army "I don't know if they frighten the enemy, but By God they frighten me..."
............................

But I don't know where people get the idea that killing a bomber is a reliable way of stopping the bomb exploding. It'd be the easiest thing in the world to rig a device so that the very act of killing the bomber would set the bomb off. You wouldn't need anything more complicated than something like a clothes peg held in the hand, wired up to a detonator in a Dead Man's Switch arrangement. If they haven't done that already I can't imagine it'll be long before they do. They may be mad, but they aren't stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 05:04 PM

Having read all these posts, perhaps the most chilling is Kendall's contribution: "Damndest case of suicide..." or words to that effect. If people who have previously presented themselves as reasonably intelligent can be reduced to this gloating mentality, then god help us.

I don't always see eye to eye with Big Mick, and not entirely in the case of his posts in this thread either, but I can see where he's coming from. Part of the problem about discussing a catastrophe like this death is is that there has long been a gulf between the US and th UK about how these matters are viewed. Many in the UK, including me, are horrified to see that gap narrowing as the UK moves a step nearer the adoption of US values, where police sootings have long been a fact of life and death.

Peace facetiously said in response to someone "let me know if it works" referring to the UK policy of an unarmed police force. Well the fact is that it did work, for many gnerations. Even in the present situation, in which the tabloids among others are doing their best to whip up hysteria, most police are unarmed. But those days are numbered. They are numbered because of a sea-cahnge in the values of western governments. Nowadays our leaders brasenly brush off rebukes from Amnesty, Human Rights Watch etc, whereas any adverse report from such organisations would have caused the deepest shame earlier within my own lifetime.

Exactly 25 years ago, the US did its best to wreck the Olympic spirit, by boycotting the Moscow Olympics. Why? Because the USSR had invaded Afghanistan! Now the world superpower believes it can invade Afghanistan or anywhere else with impunity. Fawning regimes like Britian's, Egypt's, and the ertwhile government in Spain, think they can trot along lending their support from the rear, again with impunity. They can't.

The result is a world in which the once dinstinguished commentator Brian Walden says that no measure that would be too much if it would prevent more deaths from suicide bombing. In other words a world in which buses stop only at designated points where scanning equipment can be available, and in which 30-minute check-in times are imposed on people wanting to travel by Tube.

Walden and his ilk would deprive us of every liberty we ever had if we could only retain our freedom to slaughter innocent civilians in "far away countries of which we know nothing."

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Big Mick
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 05:22 PM

Peter, a well reasoned (as usual) post. I remember another Olympics in which a bunch of athletes guilty of nothing more than being from Israel were taken captive and butchered. Seems wrecking the Olympic spirit is not the exclusive domain of the US and the west.

I am in agreement with the legitimate aspirations of the Palestinians. I agree that Iraq was a horrible blunder and that it was not launched for legitimate reasons. I even understand the frustration of outgunned fighters using desperate measures.

What I am in disagreement with here is the same round of folks that never miss an opportunity to complain. I am feeling that it isn't about legitimacy, but rather to be negative about the West no matter the circumstance. One cannot rationally explain what happened here, because in these situations one doesn't have time to rationalize. One must react. And damned if you do and damned if you don't.

This was a horrible tragedy for all parties, especially the young man and his family. Some folks here need to drop the phoney intellect arguments and just admit that they love these types of things because it gives them ammo in there obsessive need to criticize.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 05:40 PM

Great stuff Peter and good to see you back.
We're still struggling on against the powers of darkness...Shakibus and the orcs.
Look forward to your views on the terrorist situation...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,02:46 PM
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 05:44 PM

"both are public transit in the UK, I believe and your point is"

The one that you failed to make until later...

Why wait til he went underground with it?

Chill out, for fuck's sake, Susan

You're acting like one of those cops...

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 05:49 PM

What exactly is Operation Kratos? Shouldn't the public be informed of this new policy. I know if I were visiting London I would want to know about it since I was under the impression that the police over there did not carry guns.

I hear its "shoot to kill" but others say, no, you must first use reasonable restraint. Others say the orders must come from above.

Does anybody know what Operation Kratos entails?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: jpk
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 05:49 PM

lest we now know why the marksmanship was so good[better than the american police generally]they had him caught and was holding him down so the gun could be stuck in his ear[symbolism]lest here in the states they normally stop shooting when the suspect is on the ground.   but i guess i can understand not shooting untill you had him at blank range[might hit explosives if any otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 05:52 PM

A quick google, and you're there....

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 05:53 PM

,,, Operation Kratos, explained (as much as they can, dianavan)

I agree Kevin, a cracker book.

Not entirely irelevant

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: greg stephens
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 05:53 PM

Some people just love to think the worst, dont they, as long as it supports their political case. Maybe the people who let him on the bus didnt think he had any explosives. Maybe the policeman who shot him thought he had. Perfectly feasible, yes? Presumably it wasnt the same policeman.I'm not saying that is the case, but it seems as likely as any other explanation. And considerably more likely than other theories expressed in this and other threads, such as the suggestion that the police are out to execute people for being black(or possibly, in this case, a bit brown). If that was really the case, it's surprising they've only found one so far, given that London is a rather cosmopolitan city.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 06:07 PM

Greg - I think this incident rates right up there with the "worst".

It isn't wrong for people to think, especially at this time in our history. Everything is changing but this particular incident not only killed an innocent it has also severely undermined the confidence of the public, including Muslims who were being asked to co-operate.

Why is it that co-operation is a one-way street? Co-operation requires the participation of all those involved. Why would anyone co-operate with a bungling police force? Thats the underlying tragedy of this incident.

To beat terrorism, their has to be an atmosphere of trust, respect and co-operation. The London police just shot themselves in the foot and that puts everyone at risk. Al-Qaeda must be jumping for joy.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: jpk
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 06:15 PM

not just the foot,they had the man down, almost under control.
it was more like shooting fish in a barrel.or a steer in the slaughter house.next are they gone shoot a deaf man because he does nt stop when they yell halt.it's happend before.[dif cir still just as bad]

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 06:18 PM

Several posters have mentioned that the shoot to kill policy is no good if the individual with the bomb has a "dead man's switch", and that terrorist organizations will adopt that, if they haven't already.   Think about that for a moment.

A dead man's switch has to be held open. That means that the carrier has to maintain a constant muscle tension to hold the switch. If I were a terrorist leader/planner I'd be very shy of that approach, because of the possibility--nay, the likelihood--of the operative's stumbling, or having a sneezing fit, or being bumped in a crowd, maybe just startled, his switch hand getting tired and just wanting to shift his grip, or even just his attention wandering. and then what do we get? We get an impressive explosion in the wrong place, before the operative gets to the target. Then we've lost an operative, we've lost our bomb, we've lost surprise.

I really don't expect to find them using a dead man's switch.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 06:20 PM

It would certainly be that last thing you will ever expect, again

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 06:22 PM

Tír Eoghain fuck off and die you murdering fenian scum

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 06:45 PM

Don't waste your time with him. He showed what a thick gob shite he was yesterday.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 06:51 PM

How did he do that, guest?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 06:55 PM

... got sick of talking about your own troubles, so you feel live reliving the old days?

Start a thread, and let's get to it, then....

Now.... write 100 lines of:

I shall not live with my head up my arse

You're a fucking joke, mate

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 07:12 PM

I'll tell you this, Guests and others, though...

The North of Ireland has roughly 1 1/2 million people living there.
Yeah?

How many in England?

How difficult was it for the cops and Brits to keep a handle on things in the North?

How many people in England again?

How clever are you?

You're troubles are only beginning, pal.

And you want to talk about us?

Is that a serious case of head-up-the-arsery, or wha?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 07:20 PM

Any of you read 'Family & Class...'?

.. and it's all just a little case of history repeating...

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 07:26 PM

It'd be very easy to have a Dead Man's Switch which could be activated at will by the bomber when they found themselves in a situation where they felt at risk of being captured, for example passing through a checkpoint. Anyone with the skill to make a reliable and effective bomnb would be able to produce something like that. (Aren't we all familiar with theeh scene in theeh films where the villain or the hero removes the pin from a hand grenade, and holds the firing mechanism open, as a way of deterring captors from shooting and so setting of an explosion that will kill them?)

My point is, the assumption that killing a bomber is a certain way of stopping them letting-off their bomb is a very suspect one. When former head of the London Metropolitan Police Force Lord Stevens wrote this week "There is only one sure way to stop a suicide determined to fulfil his mission: destroy his brain instantly, utterly", he was making that assumption, and it just doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Perhaps killing a captured bomber might improves the odds, at least until the bombers wise up to the tactic - but there's nothing "sure" about it. For all we know they're already using such devices.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 08:01 PM

... and before y'all start going on about fascism and the like...., remember that we, the Nationalists in the North of Ireland, had the ignominious distinction of battling the first excrement pile of what was to later become Neo-Nazism, in the form of The Tartan Gangs.

We now have Neo-Nazism in the extreme right-wing of Unionism.
And we're battling against that at present.

Make no mistake here, folks.

I would doubt that any Nationalist in the North would gloat over what you are about to go through, because we've been through it ourselves... and are still going through it, albeit in slightly different circumstances.

However, if you wish to keep on perpetuating the myth, by calling people 'Fenian Scum', and the like, then go ahead...

I, for my part (and possibly the rest of the lads), will remind you without standing on too much ceremony where the nub of your problem lies.

You know it's true.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Metchosin
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 10:44 PM

greg stephens, according to the police, he was a terrorist suspect the moment he left his doorstep. Remember the stuff about the bulky jacket? It would seem like the logical time to check him out.

Why keep waiting to see what he would do? "Wow!he didn't explode at the bus stop. Great!", "Phew! He didn't blow up on the bus! That's nice." Great senario if you expect your security system to be run by drama queens. Lousy way of preventing a serious incident.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 07:14 AM

You're arguing from hindsight, Metchosin.

If the police was sure from the onset they had to prevent a serious incident their acting was lousy. But that's not how it goes.

- A suspect (only reason for the suspicion: the address) leaves the house. Let's follow him to find other suspects or a hideout.
He enters a (perhaps quite empty) bus: Let's follow him
- He has a bulky jacket: He could be transporting a bomb or be on a suicide mission or just so: Let's follow him and watch closely. Meanwhile phone to get permission to shoot, just in case.
- He goes to a tube station (more people around than in the bus): It's getting more risky, let's challenge him to find out whether he is a terrorist or innocent.
When challenged he runs and jumps a barrier: Then and only then with seconds to go the idea 'we have to act immediately' comes in their minds and they act as trained.

With him not starting running he'd be still alive. But from his position I also can understand why he started running. There are a lot of hypothetical scenarios in which running and jumping was the best action. Unfortunately, in the actual case it wasn't. If he had had the idea they wanted to check him for a bomb he'd stopped, smiled at them and very slowly opened his jacket.

Two (groups of) persons acting with no knowledge what was in the others mind(s). Acting wrongly and quickly based on false hypotheses.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 07:25 AM

Thick gobshite, eh?

Look how far that thinking has gotten you in the past.

Take the lid off the jam-jar you live in, and jump out every once in a while

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: freda underhill
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 08:17 AM

from Human rights lawyer discusses police killing

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Metchosin
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 11:00 AM

Wolfgang, almost every post on this thread concerning this incident is hindight and speculation including yours. However, checking out a person of suspicion is done in this country all the time and is generally considered the logical action of a prudent police force.

Here such action is standard regarding the possession of drugs/alcohol/stolen property or surprize! even concealed weaponsand sometimes, unfortunately, as in the UK, conducted just as an excuse for harassment based upon the racial or ethnic prejudice of individual officers.

According to Mr.de Menezes' cousin, this practice is or was standard in Britain too. Mr. de Menezes had been checked out by police in the past for lesser concerns than possibly carrying a bomb. All police searches carry an element of risk to the officers involved, even for a pocket full of marijuana, but, it is their job, even when things get very tough indeed.   

A little game of I Spy and put a few bullets in his head if things get too dicey in a crowd? Get real Wolfgang, one expects competence from a professional police force, even more so during a time of crisis. This is not a computer game or movie fer gawds sake and the public has the right to expect the police not to deliberately put them in harms way.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 11:31 AM

If you want total security, go to prison. There you're fed, clothed, given medical care and so on. The only thing lacking... is freedom.

Dwight D. Eisenhower, U.S. general and 34th president (1890-1969)

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Metchosin
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 11:46 AM

Dwight forgot to mention along with security, the expectation of being raped with impunity too. Then again, this was a man who also thought using the atom bomb to blast the St. Lawrence Seaway was a good idea. However, his warning regarding the military industrial complex was prudent, IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 11:50 AM

That probably gets covered under 'Freedom', Metchosin

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 11:55 AM

Metchosin,

my only point was that your logical time to check him out was not so logical but just one possible guess.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 12:16 PM

Today's Tony Blair Quotes:

"Al-Qaeda is not on the same par as the IRA.... It was invidious to make comparisons"
"IRA political demands could not be directly compared to fundamentalists who carried out the 9/11 US attacks."
"I don't think the IRA would ever have set about trying to kill 3,000 people,"
"I don't think you can compare the political demands of republicanism with the political demands of this terrorist ideology we're facing now."

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Rumncoke
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 12:27 PM

More photos of Mr. Menezes show him as decidedly light skinned - he had dark curly hair, and to me he looks Welsh. A fair few Italians settled in Wales and although their olive skin shade has not survived the dark hair and eyes have. Not all skin colouring is determined genetically.

Tony Blair on the other hand is decidedly dark at the moment. Propaganda paint-on fake tan perhaps?

It seems some don't realise how cosmopolitan a place London is - if everyone even slightly dark skinned was a suspect to be detained then very little proper policing would get done.

Britain has never been a nation of uniformly pale skinned fair haired people. Racism here in the UK is based more an accent, dress and vulnerability than any truelly genetic component.

After all the reports since the event I still don't understand why someone would run into a London tube station when challenged by police. After the events of this month it does not make sense.

A newpaper seller outside the station is reported as having seen Mr Menezes running from police who were identifying themselves and telling him to stop.

Was there some reason for him to run?

Can anyone put forward a sensible reason why a person legally living and working in the UK, and going about his normal business should be terrified out of logical thought and behaviour by being told to stop by the police?

Anne

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 12:45 PM

The flaw with that, Wolfgang is, if they actually suspected he's without doing something to make sure he wasn't. I suspect it probably was somethingrather like that - but if so, it involved police playing fast and loose with the lives of people travelling on public transport in an irresponsible way.

That's not hindsight, it's foresight.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 12:46 PM

The flaw with that, Wolfgang is, if they actually suspected he was carrying a bomb, they should never have let him on that bus without doing something to make sure he wasn't. I suspect it probably was rather like that - but if so, it involved police playing fast and loose with the lives of people travelling on public transport in an irresponsible way.

That's not hindsight, it's foresight.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 08:33 PM

"Today's Tony Blair Quotes:"

Well he's a smart geezer innit

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 08:41 PM

you forgot the question mark....

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 07:21 AM

well maybe me is not so brainiest as yous but i know wot me would dig!

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 09:33 AM

Nice big ice lollipop?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 07:21 AM

Suicide, Kendall? Maybe where you live. By UK standards this is looking increasingly like murder.

Inquiry documents leaked

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 08:39 AM

The only people jumping barriers and running were police.

The victim walked onto the station, not wearing a heavy jacket(with no wires), picked up a newspaper, was held by one policeman while another one shot him. Looks like all he did wrong was to resemble (slightly) one of the suspects (narrow face and darkish skin).

Are we now going to get apologies from all the Catters who kept saying he had it coming to him for behaving suspiciously?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 12:32 PM

I wouldn't hold your breath.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 01:12 PM

Especially Anne Rum'n coke!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 01:55 PM

test

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 10:50 PM

I posted early in this thread to critique Hakman for jumpin' at conclusions. Well, his jump was more accurate than my comment. This is a sad tragedy which has nothing to do with whether the young man was illegally working in the country or not or spoke good English or not. He clearly did not deserve what happened to him and nothing can bring him back.

Heard an English commentator say today (08/17/05)the latest version of the police story is that one policeman was watching the suspicious residence but was 'relieving himself' as the 'suspect' exited hence gave as his best guess whether they were dealing with a terrorist or not.

While in the Boston area, the city police killed an innocent bystander during the night of the public celebration for the big win of the Red Sox over the Yankees in late 'o4. The cops were using s'posedly non-lethal riot gear, but no one was rioting. They shot the young lady in the eye with it. One thing I'll give them, the new lady chief of police made no excuses and spun no story. However, they have soft pedaled the fact that other people were shot with this equipment without provocation.