Don't Think Twice - snide or sincere?

Subject: RE: Don't Think Twice - snide or sincere?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 13 May 06 - 10:27 AM

Or, as we used to sing...
"Don't sing twice, Bob
That's all right"

Subject: RE: Don't Think Twice - snide or sincere?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 May 06 - 10:43 AM

I still prefer the abridged version of this song, appropriate for those of us who don't have a lot of time to mull such things over. It's called "Don't Think Once!"

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Don't Think Twice - snide or sincere?
From: Cruiser
Date: 13 May 06 - 10:54 AM

Interestingly, as I was reading this informative thread I heard (on an Oldies Internet radio station) 'Just Like A Woman', my favorite Dylan song, sung by MANFRED MANN...not near as good as Dylan's original.

Subject: RE: Don't Think Twice - snide or sincere?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 May 06 - 11:24 AM

Don't steal twice, one's alright.

Subject: RE: Don't Think Twice - snide or sincere?
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 13 May 06 - 11:39 AM

GUEST seems unaware of "the folk process." Or TS Eliot's "Good poets borrow; great poets steal." If we were to delve into Guthrie's (either/any of them) oeuvre how many really original works would we find? Or anyone else's? It's a distraction from a consideration of the value of the song.

Subject: RE: Don't Think Twice - snide or sincere?
From: M.Ted
Date: 13 May 06 - 11:52 AM

If this discussion was conducted in a restaurant, across the table, the rest of us would have missed out on it--so thank God for the Internet, and for Mudcat--

At any rate,BuckMulligan, I appreciate the literary perspective, which tends toward the idea that great a work must speak on its own(even though the people who say that also tend toward writing huge annotated biographies)--

However, I think your question is not fundamentally a literary question, it's a performance question--and as a peformer, it isn't enough to find meaning in a work, you have to find your own emotional position , so that you can make the piece work for you in front of an audience.

For this reason, it can help a lot to have a more concrete idea of where the song came from, in terms of defining the emotions in it, than the author might have written into the lyrics--

However performer can do just as well to come up with their own idea of where a song comes from-and sometimes, the performer can find a deeper meaning than had been expressed before-this happens a lot with Dylan songs--"All Along the Watchtower" didn't stand out until Jimmy Hendrix did it, and, for those of us who pondered Dylan for hours at a time in our youth, "Knockin' On Heaven's Door" was a weak throwaway, til Bob Marley, Guns and Roses, et al turned it into a Rock Anthem--

For me, Elmer Fudd's "Yiddish Accent" is a great way to understand the verbal irony--though I'd suggest keeping the actual accent "inside"--

The Suzy Rotolo story gives a new perspective though, and that is the idea that the singer is pondering words that were spoken to him, and is, as we all do, finding self-serving rationalizations,logical inconsistancies, self-martyrdom, and a bit of hypocrisy in them-

Subject: RE: Don't Think Twice - snide or sincere?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 May 06 - 12:00 PM

OK, so Dylan is a great poet and he steals. I have noticed that all three songs by Clayton, Dylan and Cash use the same traditional song 'Scarlet Ribbons for her Hair'. This must be a different melody from that made famous by Harry Belafonte as I can't hear any resemblance, either melodically or structually. Can someone point me to a midi of this trad tune used by these three writers?

Subject: RE: Don't Think Twice - snide or sincere?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 May 06 - 12:01 PM

Sorry, I should have said two good writers and a thief.

Subject: RE: Don't Think Twice - snide or sincere?
From: Cruiser
Date: 13 May 06 - 12:06 PM

M.Ted wrote:

"Knockin' On Heaven's Door" was a weak throwaway"

You must not have seen the movie and listened to the soundtrack of Sam Peckinpah's 'Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid'

The song Knockin' On Heaven's Door' played over one of the most poignant scenes of any movie where the character, played by Slim Pickens, dies from a gunshot wound next to a small body of water in the desert.

Dylan is also in the movie, which I highly recommend.

Cruiser

Subject: RE: Don't Think Twice - snide or sincere?
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 13 May 06 - 01:37 PM

M.Ted - quite right, the original point was indeed a performance question; I didn't mean to sound dismissive of "context" as a legit foundation for an individual interpretation - just meant to be mulling my own POV out loud. the more I think about it the more I like Elmer Fudd's Yiddish take myself, and it may well convey my own feelings about the topic in the lyric.

Subject: RE: Don't Think Twice - snide or sincere?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 13 May 06 - 02:33 PM

"Stan Rogers' "Bits and Pieces,"

One assumes you mean the song "Turnaround"?

Subject: RE: Don't Think Twice - snide or sincere?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 May 06 - 02:48 PM

The best version of "Knockin' On Heaven's" Door is the original version, in my opinion. It is deep in feeling, not overblown or exaggerated, and totally appropriate. It's in a western movie, and it sounds like a western song. The Guns 'n Roses version is a travesty in comparison.

But I guess that all depends on what you're looking for in the song.

The folk process involves dipping into past tradition, getting inspiration from it, and coming up with a new expression of it, hopefully a better one. Dylan did that with many trad and popular songs. So did thousands of other songwriters. People who call him a "thief" for so doing wouldn't care a hoot about it except for one thing...he succeeded and became very famous. That is why they don't like it.

Subject: RE: Don't Think Twice - snide or sincere?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 13 May 06 - 02:58 PM

The best version of "Knockin' On Heaven's Door"

Partial to Eric Claptons cover for one of the Lethal Weapon movies myself....

Subject: RE: Don't Think Twice - snide or sincere?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 May 06 - 03:08 PM

Perhaps. I haven't heard that one, but I figure that Clapton would most likely do a great job on that song.

Subject: RE: Don't Think Twice - snide or sincere?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 13 May 06 - 03:16 PM

I don't sing the song. It's bitter and self-pitying.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Don't Think Twice - snide or sincere?
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 13 May 06 - 04:16 PM

Thanks Frank. I guess that blows my notion that it might have another interpretation right outta the water.

Subject: RE: Don't Think Twice - snide or sincere?
From: M.Ted
Date: 13 May 06 - 04:54 PM

I saw the movie. Not one of Sam's best--and, even if it worked in the movie(which is open to debate), it underscored the visual, which is what movie music does, that doesn't mean that it speaks in any other context--

Frank's point is well taken--I plead guilty to having performed it many times, in my youth, and didn't necessarily see it that way(it wouldn't occur to me to sing this song nowdays)--still, bitterness and self-pity work rather well on stage--

Subject: RE: Don't Think Twice - snide or sincere?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 May 06 - 04:55 PM

Little hawk, you can't have it both ways. The rationalisation of Dylan's 'borrowings' from the likes of Paul Clayton that great poets steal (see Buck Milligan) is something artists do although Paul Clayton wasn't happy. Dylan's arrogance in stealing someone else's song and making out it was his own by changing a few lines is unacceptable, Why didn't he write a new song?

Subject: RE: Don't Think Twice - snide or sincere?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 May 06 - 05:05 PM

May answer to you is entirely taken care of by Catspaw49's post of 13 May 06 - 10:22 AM . I agree with his take on it. I'm not much impressed by the Paul Clayton lyric. I am impressed by what Dylan did with his version. He came up with some very memorable lines. You wonldn't care about the resemblance if his version had never become famous, would you? His very success is the indication, first, of his talent...and secondly, it's the only real reason why people pick on stuff like this endlessly and get worked up about it.

To be famous is to be everybody's football and get kicked all over the place because they're got their eye on you. It's a drag. I bet most people who are famous reach a point when they wish to God it had never happened.

Subject: RE: Don't Think Twice - snide or sincere?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 May 06 - 05:29 PM

Had another look at the Paul Clayton lyric. It's a very slender piece of writing indeed. It's verse structure is nothing like DTT, considerably less interesting and considerably less well developed. It's clearly borrowed from "Scarlet Ribbons". I've heard recordings of "Scarlet Ribbons" by both the Kingston Trio and Joan Baez...it doesn't sound anything like "Don't Think Twice, It's All Right", so how can the one be a copy of the other?

Looks to me like Mr Dylan DID write a whole new song, to all intents and purposes, and one that left the other two (which probably influenced it to some degree) in the dust.

We all use past songs to inspire and kick off ideas for new songs. To borrow a phrase or two out of a past song is as much homage to the song and to a well loved tradition as it is anything else. I've done it with exactly that in mind...paying homage to the songs I love. I've borrowed lines form Dylan's songs for that very purpose. In such cases, I didn't think I was going to "fool" anyone into thinking I thought of it first! ;-) That was not my purpose. Dylan's songs are absolutely full of lyrical links to the trad and other songs he absorbed like a sponge in his late teens and early 20's.   In that respect he was doing what practically every enthusiastic young folksong writer does. That is the folk process.

Subject: RE: Don't Think Twice - snide or sincere?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 May 06 - 05:38 PM

Oh Little Hawk, there are none so deaf as those that do not hear. Did you not read catspaw49 and see any indication that Dylan nicked the song from Clayton? And what about the Johnny Cash song which has the same tune as Clayton's and Dylan's? We are not talking about the folk process here, we are talking about sheer theft for commercial purposes.

Subject: RE: Don't Think Twice - snide or sincere?
From: Teribus
Date: 13 May 06 - 06:00 PM

Well damn me Little hawk and myself in full agreement on something!!!

"Love Minus Zero, No Limit"

Unfortunately no bastard over here knows it, I keep raving about it, guess I'll just ahve to record a cover version of it.

Subject: RE: Don't Think Twice - snide or sincere?
From: M.Ted
Date: 13 May 06 - 06:19 PM

GUEST--Lots of songs use the same melodies--even more use variations of melodies, and most consist of bits that have been used over and over, mixed and matched--if you want something that's not strongly derived from something else, you pretty much have to invent your own musical system, like Shoenberg, or Harry Partch--don't expect it to go over big, though--it's called "folk music" and "traditional music" for a reason--

Subject: RE: Don't Think Twice - snide or sincere?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 May 06 - 06:41 PM

To quote from Catspaw49's post: "While Dylan's debt is clear here, the actual achievement of "Don't Think Twice, It's Alright" far outstrips its precursors." That's what I'm saying.

I don't give a holy toot if Dylan got ideas from Clayton's song and Clayton and Cash and Dylan all got ideas from "Scarlet Ribbons"! If he did, well, he came up with a far better song in the process.

You apparently have some personal emotional need to get angry at Dylan over this...and probably over various other stuff...and to call him a "thief"? Okay, that's fine. You can do that if you want to. I have no such need.

Subject: RE: Don't Think Twice - snide or sincere?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 May 06 - 06:59 PM

Oh, Teribus...I'm glad you like that song too.

People can always find plenty to agree about, as long as they don't get on the wrong foot over something else first! ;-) I've noticed that all my life. People usually get along badly with one another because they've already decided to for some reason...

Subject: RE: Don't Think Twice - snide or sincere?
From: Joybell
Date: 13 May 06 - 07:34 PM

My first impression was that it was bitter. Later I found myself hearing pain and hurt covered by youthful bravado.

"Love Minus Zero, No Limit" wasn't known well here in Australia either. Hearing True-love sing it back when we first met (not to me -- he was performing at the time) left me stunned for days. I still get lost in the beauty of that song.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: Don't Think Twice - snide or sincere?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 May 06 - 07:37 PM

"pain and hurt covered by youthful bravado"

Exactly.

Subject: RE: Don't Think Twice - snide or sincere?
From: Ferrara
Date: 13 May 06 - 08:21 PM

Missed this thread for a couple of days. Disagree with Buck M's opinions on "Diamonds & Rust." (I do sing it, both at home & occasionally in public, know others who do and it comes across fine.) Agree with Joybell's succinct "youthful bravado" comment.

Subject: RE: Don't Think Twice - snide or sincere?
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 May 06 - 08:26 PM

Sign me up as another Love-0NL fan......Nice piece of work.

Also, you need a different Scarlett Ribbons tune and there is a previous thread or half a dozen about that somewhere.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Don't Think Twice - snide or sincere?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 May 06 - 08:28 PM

Oh, I see. I wasn't aware that "Scarlet Ribbons" has 2 different tunes.

Subject: RE: Don't Think Twice - snide or sincere?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 May 06 - 05:13 AM

I posted a while back that I could see no resemblance to the Scarlet Ribbon tune sung by Harry Belafonte (also sung by Joab Baez et al) and asked if someone could point me to the tune used for Clayton's, Dylan's and Johnny Cash's. It's obviuos that if Dylan had written the tune, he (or his publishers) would have sued Cash.