BS: English police at it again !

Subject: BS: English police at it again !
From: GUEST,محمد
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 06:05 PM

Yes the good old English Police force are at it again. Tony Blair praised them last weekend for what they did. The two brothers appeared on television today.Does the community support the police ? NO WAY.

The man who was shot during an anti-terrorist raid in east London has said he feared he would be killed.

Abul Koyair, 20, and his injured brother Mohammed Abdul Kahar, 23, were released without charge a week after the raid on their Forest Gate home.

Mr Kahar said: "I thought one by one they're going to kill us. At that time I thought I was going to die."

The police earlier said they were acting on "specific intelligence" that a chemical device was in the house.

According to the brothers' lawyer, the unsuccessful police search included digging up plants in the garden and drilling holes in the shower.

Mr Kahar said he "had no idea" who spoke to the police, prompting the raid.

'Seemed like fire'

"From my point of view the person who did this they have terrorised me and my family," he said.

Speaking at a press conference, Mr Kahar said he was in great pain when he was taken to the hospital with a gunshot wound, saying: "It seemed like fire. I was burning."

At one point Mr Kahar broke down in tears as he described the raid, involving 250 police, which he initially thought was a robbery.

He described the moment when he was shot. "We both had eye contact, he shot me straight away," he said.

"I just saw an orange spark and a big bang. I flew into the wall, slipped down. There was blood coming down my chest. I knew I was shot.

        
Raided property
I feel fear when the room is dark
Abdul Kahar

Reaction to brothers' claims

"It's ruined my life from the day, from the time they entered my house. It's turned my life upside down."

He alleged he was dragged from the house onto the street where an officer applied pressure to the wound. It was only then Mr Kahar said he realised that police were involved.

He said he had been unable to sleep since the raid.

"I can't go sleep, I keep on having flashbacks, I can't go sleep with the light off. I feel fear when the room is dark."

Mr Koyair also gave his version of what happened during the police raid.

"All of a sudden my brother went down the second sets of stairs and I heard a loud bang, and it was a big flash and then after that everything was so quiet," he said.

"No-one said nothing, I thought it was like a dream at first, no-one was speaking, saying anything.

"After about one, two minutes I realised that this is not a dream. I realised that my own brother got shot for no reason."

Police application

When asked if the Metropolitan Police chief Sir Ian Blair should resign over the raid, Mr Kahar said: "I believe I shouldn't have been shot."

Mr Koyair added: "We feel that whoever is responsible should be put to justice. Sir Ian Blair, whoever gave the order for this to happen."

        
HAVE YOUR SAY
They are in a considerable amount of pain
Humeya Kalam

Send us your views

The brothers, who had been held under the Terrorism Act 2000, were released on 10 June after police found no trace of an alleged chemical device at their home.

But Mr Kahar said suing the police "is not even in our heads at the moment".

He was more interested in getting an apology from the police, he said.

"I want everyone that was involved, whoever gave the order for the raid to happen, for the shot to go off, everyone involved to apologise."

The police have defended the raid and the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) is investigating.

An official spokesman for Tony Blair said the prime minister remained 101% supportive of the police, saying: "The PM's view has not changed at all."

The director of campaign group Liberty, Shami Chakrabarti, said questions remained about the "appropriateness of [police] action".

She did not want to prejudge any official scrutiny of the raid, but added: "We also have to be concerned about the shot and why that was necessary."

Subject: RE: BS: English police at it again !
From: GUEST,Rio
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 06:15 PM

Don't forget they don't like Brailians either !
The death of Jean Charles de Menezes, the Brazilian electrician shot dead by British Police on the London Underground on 22 July 2005 should of been enough, oh no even after it was revealed that Mr de Menezes was not acting suspiciously and was already restrained when shot.

Nice people.

What do our friends in America think of this ?

Subject: RE: BS: English police at it again !
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 06:59 PM

Please can the police shoot anyone who writes "should of"?

The failure here is not that of the police. What would you have them do if there is intelligence (if that is the right word) of the kind they had?

The fault is of the intelligence services. They are at present overcompensating for the argument that they did not give proper warnings for September the 11th.

Subject: RE: BS: English police at it again !
From: Grab
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 07:18 PM

Sure there's a failure of the police - without warning, shooting an unarmed man who's offered no resistance (in fact, who hasn't had time to offer resistance) sounds a helluva lot like failure to me. Their sister says that she thought they were armed robbers and they were all going to be murdered - it wasn't until she had been dragged out of the house that she knew they were police.

In other words, we're talking disproportionate response.

Thank god that at least they've learnt not to lie about what happened since de Menezes was killed, since lying always gets found out.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: English police at it again !
From: chazkratz
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 07:52 PM

As a long-time (though currently inactive) member of the Mudcat Grammar Police, I am appalled by Officer Richard Bridge's qestion:

Please can the police shoot anyone who writes "should of"?

The MGP code requires nothing stronger than mild ridicule for such as the common phonetic error of misplacing the contracted have ("ve) with the preposition _of_ (with which one should not end a sentence). For Officer Bridge's failure to insert a comma after "Please" i recommend ten lashes with a cat-o'-nine-tails; after all, a civilized society demands a higher standard of behavior of sworn officers of the law.

The final clause of the above paragraph should be seen as applicable not only to Officer Bridge, but to the police described in the original post in this thread.

Charles (--seed)

Subject: RE: BS: English police at it again !
From: Amos
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 08:00 PM

It is also interesting that they were given a report of something very specific, very dangerous and very false, on which they acted with extreme urgency; if the report had been true, the urgency with which they acted would have been applauded as a sterling example of British diligence and smart police work.

This does not forgive the hyperactive trigger finger of the officer who shot Mohammed Kahar, but it does constitute extenuating circumstances. And I would be very curious to know from whom that report originated. The ACTUAL culprit in this story may be found there, just off-stage. I am glad Mohammed was not killed.

A

Subject: RE: BS: English police at it again !
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 08:04 PM

There's already a thread about this - Forestgategate

Subject: RE: BS: English police at it again !
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 06:42 AM

Off text I know, but the people who should be shot are the TEACHERS!

Subject: RE: BS: English police at it again !
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 07:05 AM

I was under the impression that they are required to warn people by shouting 'Armed Police' Seems like they played this one different for some reason.
I was also struck by the shot man saying he was hit with the butt of a shotgun, the UK police don't as far as I know use shotguns in any situation.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: English police at it again !
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 07:18 AM

Some one untrained, and in his state of fear, probably just would not notice the subtle differences in appearance between a 'shotgun' and an 'assault rifle'...

Subject: RE: BS: English police at it again !
From: Stu
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 07:20 AM

It seems the UK police are taking their training from their trigger-happy American counterparts. That said, they've always shot innocent people since they've been armed (Lee Clegg, the chap with the chair leg, de Menezez etc).

It is a tough one though, and I also believe the intelligence services need to get their act together. I also think if you are a shaven-headed, beareded Muslim male you are far more likely to be shot than most people in this country, especially if someone with a grudge against you has told the police you are running a bomb-making factory.

As for community support, these people live in a country where the media play on the fears and ignorance of the general populace by playing to racial/religious sterotypes. they feel under seige - why the hell should they support a police force that shoots first and asks questions later?

Subject: RE: BS: English police at it again !
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 07:45 AM

Isn't that at least partly, why they migrated in the first place?

Subject: RE: BS: English police at it again !
From: greg stephens
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 07:54 AM

"Who benefits?" is often a question worth asking in these circumstances. Raiding innocent people is always a PR disater for the police. So, who is likely to be tipping off the intelligence people with false information?

Subject: RE: BS: English police at it again !
From: GUEST,Bainbo
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 07:56 AM

"Thank god that at least they've learnt not to lie about what happened"

If I remember correctly, wasn't their first reaction: "We didn't shoot him. It was his own brother, during the scuffle" ?

And this comes courtesy of Armando Ianucci on Radio 4:
"Knock, knock"
"Who's ..."
"BANG! It's the police. We can't take any chances."

Subject: RE: BS: English police at it again !
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 08:11 AM

Ah yes, the old Fallujah Knock Knock Joke from a while ago...

"Knock, knock"

"Who's There?"

"101 Airborne"

"101 Airborne, who?"

KaBOOM!

Subject: RE: BS: English police at it again !
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 09:25 AM

They were always nice to the Irish during the seventies if I recall !

Subject: RE: BS: English police at it again !
From: kendall
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 09:53 AM

Even the best judge will sometimes take a case under advisement, yet we expect the police to act and act right on the spot every time.

Subject: RE: BS: English police at it again !
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 10:03 AM

As I posted elsewhere....

Had anything been found, you would all be singing a different song. If the injured bloke had been a terrorist or a murderer, you'd all be saying hanging was too good for him. If people had died because there weren't enough officers around to control a situation, you'd be lambasting them and demanding to know why there were too few officers...

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: English police at it again !
From: GUEST,IFOR
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 06:02 PM

Dear Liz
The problem is the Metropolitan Police has a policy that to all intents and purposes is a shoot to kill policy. Innocence or guilt doen't seem to figure as important.
This policy is aimed at men with dark skin and if they have a beard they are even more at risk.
Robert De Meneses was executed and pumped full of bullets at short range while going about his lawful business and then those in charge did their utmost to cover up aided by a compliant press.
For some reason in Forestgate last week the result was a gunshot injury not death.
This shoot first policy is more reminiscent of some violent,lawless dictatorship . Let us also be clear the action of the Met's hit squads has everything to do with a political show and next to nothing with catching criminals. The operation fitted New Labour's agenda to a glove ..
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: English police at it again !
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 07:00 PM

We had the same 'gung ho with weapons' problems in Australia in some states here a few years ago - much 'retraining' ensued, and either they are better behaved or the press is now more compliant.

They got pepper spray to help with that, and lo and behold, bystanders were taking video of people being hosed down with the stuff...

Subject: RE: BS: English police at it again !
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 08:30 PM

Carrying on this discussion in two threads in parallel is not really such a good idea. Here is the earlier one Couldn't some clone merge these two threads?

Subject: RE: BS: English police at it again !
From: dianavan
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 10:48 PM

This incident begs the question, "Who are the informants and will they be charged for giving false information?"

Seems to me the family should be able to sue for slander causing bodily harm. Is there such a thing?

Subject: RE: BS: English police at it again !
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 06:24 AM

The Police will just protect their source under the word of 'secrecy' claiming that fear of public exposure (irrespective of any false claims!) will dry up future informants.

OK, so do the Police on 'conspiracy in harassment (due to negligence)': they didn't cross check the claims (which they have a duty to), and they now know that those claims were false; thus they conspired to do many things that caused trauma - including someone being shot without legal cause.

I used that line on my Council who were protecting malicious complainers harassing me: finally SOMEONE woke up that I was not bullshitting, and suddenly the Nuisance Officers stopped turning up every week to tell me inanities like my grass was the wrong colour, etc... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: English police at it again !
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 07:02 AM

It seems to me that police will never be able to get it right, if they'd left the brothers and someone found out about their information then there would of been a huge uproar. At least no one was seriously injured or killed this time. I think that the police deserve a bit of praise every now and then. Maybe not the people who 'got it wrong' but at least the officers who went into the house, not knowing what would happen and were just following instructions. It's these officers that face terrible things every day and recently the British public have just jumped in attacking the whole police force.

Subject: RE: BS: English police at it again !
From: Grab
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 01:20 PM

At least no one was seriously injured or killed this time.

We have to say that it's more by luck than judgement though. The policeman wasn't going to be trying a warning shot in the shoulder, he would have been aiming generally for the body. A couple of inches the other way, and we'd have ourselves another de Menezes.

The head of the UK's black policemen's association was on the radio yesterday saying that basically the police *should* have mistrusted the info, on the grounds that "golden nuggets" like that are fantastically improbable in policework and are usually fictitious. In other words, if all you've got to go on is one anonymous tip-off, you might want to do a bit of double-checking before you go in mob-handed. IIRC, anonymous phone-calls from a faker delayed the capture of the Yorkshire Ripper by several months and directly caused the deaths of another couple of women. And fake 999 calls cost the services millions every year, besides delaying response to real incidents.

If they had what they thought was good info, then I don't actually think the Met were wrong to raid these people's home. But they *were* wrong to shoot without warning, and to drag people out of their house without identifying themselves as policemen. And whoever was the source of the info needs some serious (and public) investigation to find out how they screwed up so badly.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: English police at it again !
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 02:34 PM

"It seems the UK police are taking their training from their trigger-happy American counterparts."
-----------
Aw stuff it! Everything that goes wrong anywhere in the world is America's fault, I guess. How logical!

For your information, Stigweard, American police try to avoid shooting, and when a gun is fired, we take it very seriously. There are many officers who have never fired a gun.

The bullet doesn't even have to hit someone. An officer simply firing a gun is a matter for investigation.

Subject: RE: BS: English police at it again !
From: MARINER
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 04:04 PM

It seems, according to a Sunday paper , that the informant is an Irishman well known as a feeder of dodgy info to the authorities. They must have known this yet choose to believe this Walter Mitty character again.

Subject: RE: BS: English police at it again !
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 04:10 PM

Maybe I'm unduly cynical, and there are always conspiracy theories about everything, but I can't help wondering if false information was given about this family just so the police would rush in heavy handed and antagonise the local community.

Subject: RE: BS: English police at it again !
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 04:12 PM

Aw stuff it! Everything that goes wrong anywhere in the world is America's fault, I guess. How logical!

No Leenia. We (UK) do seem to have a habit of following the US regardless of whether an idea is good or bad. It is our fault we do this.

Subject: RE: BS: English police at it again !
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 08:29 PM

As does Australia!