BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs

Subject: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 10:17 PM

Let's start with the obvious.

1.        Al Gore is presently saying that the burning of fossil fuels by humans is the catalyst that will plunge the earth into searing heat and destruction. That might be the case. It hasn't been proven yet either way. (Personally, I think he's full of crap but I'm no scientist.) What is he doing to stop it? Nothing.

The inconvenient truth that he doesn't want you to know is that he is hopping from city to city burning thousands of pounds of jet fuel and then jumping into gas or diesel burning SUV's or limo's from the airport to the galas therefore possibly contributing to his own demise if things are really as bad as he wants us to believe they are. Maybe he should start leading by example and maybe more people will listen. Or is what's good for the goose really not as good for the gander?


2.        Patrick Fitzgerald has spent many months investigating the outing of CIA agent Valerie Plame and has investigated several White House personnel. To date he has indicted Scooter Libby on charges of perjury. What exactly Fitzgerald thinks he lied about is still yet to be determined. The media has basically smeared, tried and convicted Rove and has even commented on wanting to see him in an orange jump suit in chains being walked out of the White House.

The inconvenient truth for liberals, however, is that Karl Rove has basically been exonerated. Fitzgerald has not even tried to implicate Rove as even trying to lie about anything or else he would certainly have had Rove indicted as well. I think someone (or a lot of someones) owes Rove a big, fat apology.


3.        The recent California elections had liberals waiting with baited breath to see the outcome as to claim some sort of victory to show the country that they will once again rule both chambers of congress. But then their candidate, Francine Busby, let slip their true feelings of wanting illegal aliens ("undocumented workers" for the PC crowd) to be able to help and vote. Conservatives all over thank her for stating her party's true position. Her candidacy tanked and Brian Bilbray came away the winner.

The inconvenient truth for liberals, however, the field was cluttered with two other candidates. King, a libertarian, with 1.53% of the vote and then Griffith, and independent with the other 3.72% of the vote. Two candidates which anyone will tell you pulled these votes from Bilbray. It's the same that happened with Clinton-Bush Sr.-Perot election. Perot pulled enough votes from Bush in order for Clinton to be credited the election. If Perot had never entered the race or dropped out prior to the election then we would have never had 8 years of Clinton and her husband. Only this time, the conservative came away the winner. If somehow you want to claim this loss a moral victory then I'm willing to grant you all of the moral victories you want in the upcoming election. That will insure that house, senate, and presidential control will not be in liberal hands for the next several years. (That one's for you CarolC)

4.        John Kerry (who served in Vietnam) is still going around and spouting that the information that Bush, the CIA and the FBI showed to him before the war misled him and other liberals for voting for the Iraq war. Of course that was before he voted against it.

The inconvenient truth for liberals, however, is that it's the same information that was given to them by Bill Clinton and Madeline Albright a year or two prior during the previous administration that was never acted upon. How long will this guy be around? He needs to go back to his McMansion and get his fat wife to get off of her butt and make him a samich.



So see, liberals don't own the monopoly on "inconvenient truths". It just so happens that the ones listed above are ACTUAL truth and not some concocted story continuously repeated as to somehow bring validity to what is being said.


Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 10:19 PM

Frankly, I don't really five a guck.

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 10:24 PM

I didn't figure you would.

Afterall, it's the truth.


Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 10:27 PM

No, it's because I have other things to do with my time than to label other people, to start arguments, or to brand as "truth" those things with which I agree or which fit my personal world view and "lies" those which do not.

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 10:29 PM

Crap! Just another trolling thread trying to get up the noses of those of the liberal/progressive persuasion. Ignore. Rather than post here, spend your time and energy writing to your congress persons or sending letters to various editors.

Does Susu's Hubby work for Karl Rove?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 10:30 PM

"Karl Rove has basically been exonerated."

Gee whiz, and did you say that about Clinton when he pulled the same trick?

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 10:31 PM

Yer right, yer no scientists, Hub...

Might of fact, when it comes to politics, just about any position you can take on any issue yoyu'll find on a bumper sticker on the back of some redneck's pick-up truck...

Ever actaully read real newspapers???

Just curious...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: 282RA
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 10:34 PM

Here we go again:

"The liberal media this and the liberal media that! Boo-hoo-hoo!"

Hey, goober, we've all read Bernard Goldberg's "Bias," okay? Like Ann Coulter and Fred Phelps, it was provocative when I first read it, but since then it has gotten old because every conservative who can read above 1st grade level has read it and now thinks he's a media expert. And in the eyes of non-intellectual conservatives, that's the same as blaming everything you don't like on the media and it's liberal bias. How ya'll do it with a straight face after showing us the likes of Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reilly is beyond me.

You might as well blame the conservative media for not stopping the liberal media--no excuses. You're either winning or you're losing. So the liberal media is winning and that's just too bad. Or should it stop and wait for ya'll to catch up?

The rest of your message is so retarded it isn't worth the time it takes to criticize it. Thanks for giving us the sources of all that amazing information otherwise I would have thought you were just talking out your ass.

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 10:36 PM

"Gee whiz, and did you say that about Clinton when he pulled the same trick?"

Clinton was indicted. They call it being impeached. He wasn't, however, removed from office.

He was disbarred from the Arkansas Bar association and lost his license to practice law. As he should have been for lying to a federal investigator. He was never exonerated.


Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: Alba
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 10:36 PM

HO HUM.... YAWN!

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 10:36 PM

If it's any comfort to you, Susu's Hubby, I have long known that American "liberal" politicians are just as lying and duplicitous as are American "conservative" politicians, and that in fact...they BOTH serve the same common interests: big money.

And neither you nor I can do a thing about it. You are living in a $y$tem that, like the latter Roman Empire, is probably beyond moral redemption. The world in general will survive it, however, and will not remember it fondly, I can assure you.

The sad thing is, it may be replaced by something equally bad or even worse...there are no guarantees concerning that.

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 10:39 PM

LH,

For some strange reason, I feel we finally have some common ground between us.


Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 10:41 PM

That will insure that house, senate, and presidential control will not be in liberal hands for the next several years. (That one's for you CarolC)

As I said on the other thread, house, senate, and presidential control would not be in "liberal" hands even if the Democrats were in power in these institutions.

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 10:42 PM

"The rest of your message is so retarded it isn't worth the time it takes to criticize it. Thanks for giving us the sources of all that amazing information otherwise I would have thought you were just talking out your ass."


Sources for what?

Check the California Sec. of State website for the election results but other than that everything I stated has been in the news the past few days and if not then just common sense....oh....that's why you didn't get it.


Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 10:45 PM

Sorry Hubby--

Bushites are the only ones who wait with "baited breath". Wonder why they never catch anything.

But at least that probably indicates that you didn't actually lift the whole thing off Fox News. You actually wrote more than one coherent paragraph--all by your little lonesome.   Really proud of you. Now all you have to do is start making sense in general and you'll be worth debating.

Congratulations.

Perhaps you'd like to tell us about when we're going to win the War on Terror. What aircraft carrier do you think the #1 chickenhawk will be standing on this time when he accepts the unconditional surrender of Terror? What do you think Terror will be wearing? Will he have a big T on his shirt--otherwise how can we tell that he is Terror?   It sure will be nice to know there will never be any more Terror.

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 10:48 PM

"The liberal media this and the liberal media that! Boo-hoo-hoo!"

282RA,

I never said anything about the liberal media. I'm sorry if you're trying to defend your sacred cow but they ain't part of the real truths listed above.


Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 10:50 PM

Ron,


Attack me if you wish....it still doesn't make the above truths any less true.




Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 10:55 PM

Oh, I'm sure we have, actually, quite a bit in common, Susu's Hubby. ;-) Seriously. Most people I know, even if we disagree on some specific political issues, the fact is there's a lot of other stuff we are well in agreement on, just the regular stuff we all have to deal with in life.

Party politics divides people against each other in a very bad way. That's one reason why I really DON'T like political parties. And that goes for ALL of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: artbrooks
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 10:59 PM

Politician = liar. So then, what else is new?

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 11:03 PM

I think the job requires lying. That's the problem. If you don't tell the right lies, you won't last long on the job. They may, in fact, even kill you if nothing else will shut you up or convince you to lie like you're supposed to.

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 11:17 PM

Anyway, whenever the Democrats do regain power, it will be because the people who own both parties want them to. As we saw in the last two elections, you can't argue with the ones who own the apparatus.

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 11:52 PM

Exactly. The elections are an enormous PR exercise designed to fool ordinary people into the silly notion that they actually have a voice, and an effect on national policy. Elections used to be held in Soviet Russia for the same purpose. All the candidates were assorted representatives of the ruling order, and the same is true in American elections. It's just pretend, folks! 2 major parties...with one ruling $y$tem behind them. The more they can divide you to fight against each other uselessly over those 2 totally bogus parties, they better they can divide and conquer. And that's all it amounts to.

But just wait. The next election will come, and you'll get caught up in the game...just like always. You'll get hooked by the drama. It's a many-month drama, like a huge TV mini-series or a sports playoff, put on to distract and entertain. The ruling $y$tem always wins, no matter which party takes the presidency.

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: Amos
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 12:09 AM

What is it that makes you think Karl Rove was exonerated just because the investigator declined to prosecute him? The only thing he was let off on the hook about was that he didn't lie to the FBI. The fact that he lied to the American press about the very same issue is not legally prosecutable, of course. But the REAL offense which he has NOT been "exonerated" for is his part in the outing of Valerie Plame.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 01:20 AM

Lovely man.

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: M.Ted
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 01:46 AM

You don't actually know anything about any of this, and have made no attempt to learn anything about it, Susu's Hubby--so your opinion is worth about the same as any wino in the gutter. Liberal or Conservative, you really owe it to you country to have informed opinions--

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: Arne
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 03:34 AM

Susu's Hubby spins the RW "talking points" lies he's been spoon-fed by the RW Mighty Wurlitzer:

The inconvenient truth that he doesn't want you to know is that he is hopping from city to city burning thousands of pounds of jet fuel and then jumping into gas or diesel burning SUV's or limo's from the airport to the galas...

Picked that up on Freeper.com or WhirledNutzDaily, didja? Or was it His Emanence Rush that gave you that scurrilous lie?

"A lie can travel around the world before the truth even puts it's shoes on." Never so true as now. And the RW uses this tactic. See here.

But Susu's Hubby has drunk the Kool-Aid. He has no shame and no conscience. He'll ignore this, and go spouting it again here or somewhere else in two weeks time like it was the Gospel truth.

The inconvenient truth for liberals, however, is that Karl Rove has basically been exonerated.

The inconvenient truth is that Fitzgerald, barring future developments doesn't expect to seek a prosecution. But Rove has apparently changed his story and admitted to passing Plame's status to reporters (rather than the other way around as he originally claimed, having conveniently "forgotten" his involvement). And Dubya, who had promised to fire anyone "involved" in the Plame outing, has yet to sack Rove for his perfidy.

The recent California elections had liberals waiting with baited breath to see the outcome as to claim some sort of victory to show the country that they will once again rule both chambers of congress.

Busby did better than any Democratic candidate has done in a long time in the "very safe" Republican 50th district.

4. John Kerry (who served in Vietnam) is still going around and spouting that the information that Bush, the CIA and the FBI showed to him before the war misled him and other liberals for voting for the Iraq war. Of course that was before he voted against it.

The inconvenient truth for liberals, however, is that it's the same information that was given to them by Bill Clinton and Madeline Albright a year or two prior during the previous administration that was never acted upon. How long will this guy be around? He needs to go back to his McMansion and get his fat wife to get off of her butt and make him a samich.

What a big, steaming sack of horse patooties. Lies upon lies there. Not to mention a good indication of Susu's Hubby's foul disposition (and Susu's misfortune). Maybe the Catters should take up a collection for her.

Cheers,

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: Arne
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 03:41 AM

[artbrooks]: Politician = liar. So then, what else is new?

Well, we can't control what politicians do (although it behooves us to choose them more carefully), but we can and should take responsibility for our own actions. And I'd think that somewhere near tops on that list would be: "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour." I think that Susu's Hubby ought to consider this one for a moment.

Cheers,

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: kendall
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 05:25 AM

It sure is refreshing here in Old Blighty to pick up a newspaper that is not controlled by Rupert Murdock and his conservative mafia.

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 06:56 AM

Not for long, kendall, not for long...

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 09:14 AM

Lokking at the first post, one thing stands out. They're all personal or political things. It doesn't matter if they're true or not, or who lied,   or if it's all a giant conspiricy.

In a few decades, do you think there will be more real intrest in what Mr Rove said when, or why no steps were taken to reduce CO2 emmissions, now Washington Floods every high tide?

There is a huge volume of data showing climate change is real, and is almost certainly caused by us. There is alot of propaganda and deliberate misinterpretaition by both sides, but we can't ignore it. How long our leaders can is another question....

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 09:22 AM

SH: "The inconvenient truth that he doesn't want you to know is that he is hopping from city to city burning thousands of pounds of jet fuel and then jumping into gas or diesel burning SUV's or limo's from the airport to the galas..."

Arne: "Picked that up on Freeper.com or WhirledNutzDaily, didja? Or was it His Emanence Rush that gave you that scurrilous lie?"

Actually Arne, I've been watching the news and reading newspapers and seeing and reading about him flying from one place to the other or getting out of SUV's or limo's at the showing of his picture. Besides, if I had heard it from one of the other sources that you listed, does that make it any less true? The only way it isn't true is if he didn't get on an airplane or in an SUV or limo. Do you know for sure that this didn't happen? Did he just walk from the airport to the theatre? Did he ride a bicycle between the cities.

Arne:"A lie can travel around the world before the truth even puts it's shoes on." Never so true as now. And the RW uses this tactic. See here.

I clicked on the link. I didn't even know about that. Doesn't surprise me though, seeing that it's on one of your kook websites. If true, then kudos to Gore. But what about the planes? What about the other times?


Arne: "What a big, steaming sack of horse patooties. Lies upon lies there."

Take a look at the following quotes:


"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real..."
   - Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003

"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force -- if necessary -- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."
   - Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002

"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."
   - President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998

"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."
   - President Bill Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998

"We must stop Saddam from ever again jeopardizing the stability and security of his neighbors with weapons of mass destruction."
   - Madeline Albright, Feb 1, 1998

"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983."
   - Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998

"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."
Letter to President Clinton.
   - (D) Senators Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, others, Oct. 9, 1998

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
   - Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998

"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."
   - Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and th! e means of delivering them."
   - Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002

"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."
   - Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power."
   - Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction."
   - Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..."
   - Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years ... We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction."
   - Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members ... It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
   - Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction."
   - Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002


And yes these quotes are copy and pasted. (as if that makes a difference) Does that make them any less true?


Try again Arne. Your boat's taking on too much water. There comes a time when you have to throw the bucket down and start dog paddling or drown.


Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: Amos
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 09:33 AM

It is a VERY inconvenient truth for Hub, and many like him, that the President has wasted American treasure and American blood with his dirty little war, and that he has steadfastly insisted this was a wise thing to do. It is inconvenient to conceive that the POTUS is a loose-limbed jackal and spendthrift who actually, by resorting to violence, has ruined thousands of lives.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: Wesley S
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 09:40 AM

Sometimes I wonder why we debate these things on the Mudcat. Folks already have made up their minds. Are we expecting that someone with conservative viewpoints will read a liberals posts, slap their forehead and exclaim "Oh my God - I've been wrong all this time". Or is it possible that a conservative viewpoint expressed here will suddenly make a liberal stand up and say - "I've had my eyes opened up - George Bush is the best thing that ever happened to this country".

Folks don't come to the Mudcat BS section for V-8 moments. We come here to expound views that we already have and are very unlikly to change. Or we come here just to try to piss people off.

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: GUEST,Rufus
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 10:23 AM

Bobert comes here to troll wif his stink bombs an piss people off.

How ever some wierdos comes here for support of their wacked out thinkin and radicalisim.

Lookee Abu. Here is some folks as paranoid and full of hate as me so I must not be so fucked up after all.

Then there is others that while not pushin any agenda of ther own feel obliged to tell the wackos how wackety the really is.

OOH that pisses 'em off bigtime an they fight back like it's a contest between a teenager an his parents

Jus give 'em plenty of rope and see how wacky they gets.

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: Wesley S
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 10:38 AM

So what's the point unless we just enjoy testosterone poisoning ?

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 10:45 AM

Well put, Wesley!

I still wonder what "Bumper Sticker" bobert has on the back of his pickup.

There were a couple instances where 'Hubby' hit home. The one retort of "Ho Hum, Yawn" was classic.

And Hubby, once again my pet peeve in this forum comes forth, and, very strong with regard to this thread, "When one can't rebutt the post, then attack the poster on a personal basis." You do hold up well, however.

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: Amos
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 10:57 AM

With almost typical distortion, Hubby parades a melange of opinions from before and after the shut-down of WMD production in Iraq as though they were all one thing. This of course is not how things happened in truth, but that doesn't much matter when rhetoric is to be served.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: GUEST,jOhn
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 11:01 AM

Waht all this is about?

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: Amos
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 11:03 AM

I dunno, Sir John. Some redneck stirring up trouble, I reckon. What u think?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 11:04 AM

It isn't a matter of dividing along partisan lines, Hubby. Of course the Democrats parotted the same basic line against Iraq. The Democrats AND Republicans BOTH represent the same wealthy backers, and they BOTH pursue the same basic national policy for the USA, because they BOTH follow orders from the same interests that run the $y$tem in the USA.

Meanwhile they pretend to be an alternative to each other...which they sure as HELL are not!...and they keep you Americans spinning your wheels fighting endlessly over that meaningless and unreal alternative.

What a joke.

Reagan, Bush Sr., Clinton, Bush Jr....doesn't frikkin' matter! They all represent the same corrupt forces, they all lie, they all attack small countries on false pretexts, they all work toward the same ends.

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 11:12 AM

"I still wonder what "Bumper Sticker" bobert has on the back of his pickup."


Guest,

I don't know if Bobert has a pickup or not. but I have read that he has a SUV. Oh...the horror.


Bobert, you should be ashamed. You're destroying your environment. You're polluting the air. You're causing the earth to warm unnecessarily whenever you could be driving a safer vehicle.

Give me a break.

I'm glad Bobert has the right to choose on whatever the hell he wants to drive. If a SUV is the right thing for him and his wife then great. Susu drives a SUV by choice and she drives 80 miles a day.(While of course, dodging livestock in the road.) We use four tanks of gas a week between her vehicle and mine. It's our choice. Soon, we will give those vehicles to our kids to drive and go out and buy another V8 SUV for her and another V8 pickup for me.

If at some point, a cleaner fuel burning vehicle comes along with the capacity to do what my V8 pickup will do and at the same or cheaper price, then I may look into buying one.


That's the convenient truth.

Happy SUV'ing Bobert. Hope you and your wife enjoy it.



Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: Arne
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 11:20 AM

Susu's Hubby:

[SH]: "The inconvenient truth that he doesn't want you to know is that he is hopping from city to city burning thousands of pounds of jet fuel and then jumping into gas or diesel burning SUV's or limo's from the airport to the galas..."

[Arne]: "Picked that up on Freeper.com or WhirledNutzDaily, didja? Or was it His Emanence Rush that gave you that scurrilous lie?"

Actually Arne, I've been watching the news and reading newspapers and seeing and reading about him flying from one place to the other or getting out of SUV's or limo's at the showing of his picture.

Oh, horse patooties, SH. I can spot (or rather, smell) this RW crapola a mile away. This is one of the current "spin points" being whirled around the RW Meme-O-Sphere. You really ought to consider your Ten Commandments. You've been busted.

I clicked on the link. I didn't even know about that.

Perhaps. As I said, it gets air-mailed around the RW Memo-O-Sphere so fast it turns Fed-Ex green with envy. You heard it from somewhere there; you didn't make it up yourself, so quit lying.

[Susu's Hubby posts the same old list of tired quotes the RW "spin machine" has been floating for years now (and addressed on the 'Cat many a time before) to accompany their plaintive "Well, the DummyCrats all had the same intelligence and thought the same thing! Waugh! Waugh! We weren't the only ones wrong!!!"]

No, the Democrats and Congress didn't have access to the same information (and in fact, I seem to recall that simply trying to get the PDBs out of Dubya waslike pulling teeth and AFAIK, we still haven't gotten them all). Nor did they make the same mistakes, in substance or in extent.

And as I've pointed out here on Mudcat (complete with links to my posts pre-war), I knew it was a crock before the war, as did many others (including Democrats that voted against the war).

Not to mention, saying others are wrong about something (even if true) doesn't make you any righter. But that's just what the Republican party thinks is the proper way to be the "Party of Responsibility". Pathetic.

Cheers,

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 11:24 AM

Bobert, you should be ashamed. You're destroying your environment. You're polluting the air. You're causing the earth to warm unnecessarily whenever you could be driving a safer vehicle.

Is that true? As far as I understood it from another thread, Bobert lives in a place where access can be difficult in the winter and his choice of vehicle was restricted to ones capable of making the journey in all weather conditions.

I have no problem with what appears to be a sensible decision based on need. I do have a problem with people who drive these things for show, fashion, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: Arne
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 11:26 AM

Wesley S:

Or we come here just to try to piss people off.

Oh, I'm hoping for the slightest sense of shame (vainly, so far). And to correct the misinformation so much au courant with the RW "Mighty Wurlitzer". You can just sit back and accept that the RW has managed to hijack the media and the country, or you can fight back as your abiliities permit, and hope to keep at least some that are new to the game from getting sucked in by the lies, or at least get the RW folks to shut up for a week or two before starting it up again (which is precisely what they do; see, e.g. Susu's Hubby's "cut'n'paste" of the same tired old crapola).

Cheers,

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: Arne
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 11:30 AM

Guest:

"When one can't rebutt the post, then attack the poster on a personal basis." You [Susu's Hubby] do hold up well, however."

Brings to mind that wonderful crack at the top about "fat" and "samiches". Brings tears to my eyes....

Cheers,

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 11:33 AM

I think Mr Gore is trying to alert the general public to something so that they can bring pressure on the their poitical representatives. How would you suggest he travel to his engagements in the meantime, Hubby? We all pretty much utilize the transportation system as it presently exists, because that's the system. We travel on airplanes that burn lots of fuel when we have to travel a long distance. Are you suggesting we all stop or are you suggesting that only those who believe global warming is happening stop? Ain't gonna happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: Arne
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 11:36 AM

Susu's Hubby, in more fine "attack the argument, not the man":

I don't know if Bobert has a pickup or not. but I have read that he has a SUV. Oh...the horror.

FWIW, I do have a SUV. The ol' 20 year old MR2 wasn't going to serve for hauling my sweetie's and my bikes, or skis for the family, so I finally had it crushed (Bay Area Air Quality District air-pollution abatement program) and got a SUV. A hybrid SUV. No bumper stickers, though. Just so the facts are on the table.

Cheers,

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 12:41 PM

Susu's Hubby- great post.    Very inconvienent.

Here are are few more inconvient facts.

The Ohio special election a few months ago was also won by the Republican.   Democrats declared a moral victory just like they declared a moral victory in California.   Lets hope they have more moral victories in November.

Sidebar: I don't understand.   All the polls show a generic preference in Congress by 15 points for democrats.   How than do both Republican Congressional candidates win?   Especially in California and the battleground state of Ohio?   Must be those diebolt machines.

End Sidebar:

Bush approval up to 38%- about a 7% rise and still rising

Al Zarquawi dead and a "treasure chest" of information gathered from his laptop and memory chips.   This has resulted in numerous raids and many al Queda killed or captured.   The Iraq government said this find has turned the tide of the war.   

Sidebar:

Was anyone more depressed than Chuck Shumer reporting on the death of Al Zarquawi?   Looked like he lost his best friend.    Maybe he had.

End Sidebar:

Economy up more than expected and deficit reduced.   Bad news for democats.   Democratic strategy is for a depression.

O'Reilly poll- over 60% of people agree with Ann Coulters tactics. Her book is Number 1 best seller.

Hillary lost Iowa poll to John Edwards.   If she can't beat John Edwards....

Al Gore movie hasn't broken 4 million dollars as of June 11.   Movie theatres requiring all customers who see it to wear tin foil on their heads to block out alien signals.

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: Wesley S
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 12:47 PM

"O'Reilly poll- over 60% of people agree with Ann Coulters tactics."

That's hard to believe and it's incomplete information. Who did O'Reilly poll ? The people who watch his show ? Or was it a broad based independent poll ? Facts please. Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 12:56 PM

Few things are sadder than seeing people waste their lives and their good humour fighting over these useless divisive issues, driven by 2 parties that amount to the same thing: 2 wolves in sheep's clothing.

Give it a rest.

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: Wesley S
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 01:03 PM

Two sides of the same coin. Frick and Frack. Dumb and dumberer.

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 01:07 PM

Larry K,

Can't you just see it....

On election night, liberals the country over will be sitting and watching the election results. Their eyes will start to twitch, their neck muscles start jerking and then all of a sudden....their heads explode.

Just like in the movie "Scanners".

And in the following days, conservatives will be rejoicing for we will finally get social security reform, immigration reform, and all the other things that need to be put right in this country without the liberal obstructionists doing their usual thing.

"Happy days are here again!" (Well, this is a music site!)


Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: Arne
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 01:08 PM

Larry K:

How than do both Republican Congressional candidates win?   Especially in California and the battleground state of Ohio?

Ummm, they were both "safe" heavily Republican districts???

The Iraq government said this find has turned the tide of the war.

We've turned so many corners, I'm starting to feel dizzy.

O'Reilly poll- over 60% of people agree with Ann Coulters tactics. Her book is Number 1 best seller.

O'Lielly poll ROFLAMO....

Coulter's not #1, FWIW, at least not right now:

Here

Hillary lost Iowa poll to John Edwards.   If she can't beat John Edwards....

You folks want Hillary. You salivate over the slimejobs you can slather all over her. I'm not fond of her myself.

Cheers,

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 01:16 PM

There are no real "liberals" or "conservatives" in the sense that you think of them, Hubby. It's convenient mythology, invented to divide you against other people and waste your energy in useless controversy.

Real people are complicated. They're liberal about one thing, and conservative about another. They are not walking stereotypes that fit the prevailing mythology concocted to fuel political debates.

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 11:15 AM

Hmmmmm...I've noticed several things about threads that offer differing viewpoints rather than those from the LW blogoshere.

It seems when those few threads, like this one, pop up, there's a lot of attacking the messenger but no real debate. Then the thread just seems to head to the bottomless pit.


Truth Hurts....

Shame.....



Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 11:17 AM

People do the same thing you do, SH. Don't be surprised.

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: Amos
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 11:55 AM

Fact: approval ratings in the 30's. Very inconvenient.

Fact: the administration has caused more deaths since 9-11 than were caused on 9-11. Sad. Truth hurts, but being blown up on your way to school, or while fetching water, hurts more.

Fact: national repute, internationally, at an all-time low. Sad.

Fact: national debt, for which we have no reserves, at an all-time high. Sad.

Fact: parties responsible for 9-11 have not been identified, or of identified have not been apprehended. Oh, except for the substitute guy, Moussaoui. Sad. Incompetence hurts.

It was well stated that 51% is NOT a mandate. Well, 36% is the opposite of a mandate. It's a counter-mandate to stop digging.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 12:55 PM

Word is that the Project for the New American Century is disbanding, closing their offices, and allowing their so-called "think-tank" to be absorbed by the larger American Enterprise Institute (another conservative "think-tank"). The reason they give is that the PNAC's mission of maintaining the United States as the world's sole superpower has been accomplished (a statement that tends to cause any thinking person's eyebrows to crawl swiftly up their forehead). But the actual reason (admitted in private, and very quietly) is that the people they relied on to do the job have made a pig's breakfast of the whole thing. Rumsfeld totally mismanaged the war on Iraq, Bush has turned out to be a idiot, and the American public is becoming increasingly aware of the large number of Republicans who have been caught involved in blatant corruption.

So the PNAC has gone upstairs to hide in a closet in the AEI offices, sulk, try to pull up their socks, and plan their next move.

Don Firth

P. S. So very sad (sob!)

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 04:01 PM

Hubby - are you rejoicing that you'll also get (actually have gotten already):

- record budget deficits and national debt

- the largest expansion of the federal government in history

- government intrusion into citizen's lives (through wiretapping,
infiltration of groups, laws regarding personal lives)

- suspension of habeus corpus (for terrorists as defined by the government of course)

- overseas adventurism/police actions by the US Armed Forces

- outing of clandestine operatives

- etc...

Exactly what do "conservatives" stand for now?

Oh never mind... I know that they stand for supporting GWB even if he loads a truck full of puppies with a pitchfork*.

*stolen metaphor

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 04:09 PM

More inconvenient truths...no matter how well you dress a complete fool, he is still a complete fool. Unprovoked aggression is still unprovoked aggression. And lies about WMDs are still lies.

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 04:11 PM

The Hubster's just a "big government" kind of guy. He loves big government. That's why he's not a conservative...

Hear that, Hubster?

YOU'RE NOT A CONSERVATIVE

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 04:15 PM

Just hating "liberals" is NOT, in itself, enough to qualify a person to be fairly described as a conservative. ;-D

Ann Coulter, for instance, is no conservative. She's an extreme rightwing radical. The Bush administration is also not conservative. They are extremely radical, both in foreign and domestic policy, as well as fisal policy.

Conservatism is naturally opposed to such radicalism.

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 04:16 PM

Ahem! "fiscal policy", I meant to say...

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 04:26 PM

GWB 'the decider' also increased the debt by more than all the past presidents from George Washington to Clinton.

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: Amos
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 04:32 PM

Ya know, it is a shame there is so much inconvenient truth out there. Someone ought to do something to clean it up, maybe replace it with more convenient truths.

Some convenient truths I would like to see:

The new Administration has cut government waste and fraud down by 40% saving tens of billions of dollars.

The resurgence of constitutional pride and democratic principal has resulted in people from all walks of life actually knowing the Constitution and being able to recite the Declaration of Independence again.

The CIA and NSA have invented ways to be twice as effective in fiding correct intelligence about correct targets and have abandoned wasteful and unconstitutional options.

An Ecumenical Movement led by American liberals has resulted in an international Unified Churches of Humanity movement which has resulted in the brotherhood of the species becoming an international by-word and a cultural theme in Asia--including China--, Europe, the Middle East, Russia and Polynesia.

Western ingenuity has finally developed the Zero Point Energy brick, a device the size of a typewriter and capable of putting out 100 KWH/day. A Federal program is funding the distribution of these units to needy villages and farms all around the world, resulting in economic resurgence, massive desalination programs, self-reliance for food and new levels of human dignity in every region of Africa, the Middle East, India, Pakistan, South America, and China, while Americans are once again driving totheir heart's content without concern for negative energy impacts.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 12:49 AM

Hubby--

Your allegations are "Truths"? Not likely. Au contraire.

It gets boring to refute you--your arguments are so, pardon the expression, pathetic, it's far too easy.

1) What is Al Gore doing about global warming? Trying to stir people up so they will put pressure on their elected reps to do something about it. (On the off chance that they're not like you-- selfish enough to seize any excuse to do nothing rather than change your lifestyle one whit.)

But somehow I think you knew that.

2) Rove: To prove perjury, you have to prove intent. Not easy. In fact, never likely. But Rove has been out of the loop for many months now. Many, including WSJ editorial writers, feel that his absence contributed to Bush's many recent missteps--e.g. the Harriet Maiers fiasco. So from the standpoint of the Bush opposition, it's been great to have him gone so long. No regrets. And please don't whine, as did the WSJ, about the unfairness of it all. If you can't stand the heat....


And so on. Your other points have equal validity--i.e. precious little.

Also, I note you haven't addressed my point about the War on Terror--exactly when it will be over.

You're not worth my time, so that's all I'll say now.

Have a nice day.



By the way, never have seen you in the music threads. You wouldn't be one of our delightful politics only posters now, would you?

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 09:27 AM

Keep up the good work Hubby. Keep 'em busy.

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 11:15 AM

You're a big government kind of guy too, aren't you, Old Guy?

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: Amos
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 12:37 PM

There are nine Senators and Representatives currently under investigation and/or indictment for corrupt practices of one sort or another.

Of these nine, two are Democrats, while seven are Republicans.

By this index, the corruption on Capitol Hill, in the Legislative branch at least, is 22.2% Democratic, and 87.8% Republican.

Any idea why this is so?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 01:33 PM

Some people see life in terms of "father knows best". They want a powerful male authority figure to lay down the law and run a tight ship. It is those people who instinctively support Big Government every time.

Other people do not see life in those terms. They are suspicious of powerful male authority figures. It is those people who question Big Government and don't trust it.

The Republicans have traditionally tended to appeal to the former group, and the Democrats to the latter, but it's a very subliminal kind of thing.

And it's amusing, in a sad sort of way, because BOTH the Republicans AND the Democrats, once they are in office become...Big Government!

And they are equally untrustworthy.

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: Barry Finn
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 02:52 PM

Hi Amos
That percentage above you gave is near the same as the percentages that Reps recieve from big oil companies, this year is 84% to16%.

"Since 1990, Big Oil has given more than $190 million to members of Congress and 75% ($142,635,314!) of those donations have gone to Republicans.1 That money has guaranteed energy policy that serves the oil industry rather than the public interest".
see-
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=1872&id=8061-3971286-T_0gXbs9.saWNOsu3jQz0w&t=5

Funny how that scale keeps tipping more towards one than the other.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 11:12 PM

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/08/AR2006060800627.html

Analysis: Iraq PM Gets Double Good News

By SALLY BUZBEE
The Associated Press
Thursday, June 8, 2006; 3:50 PM

CAIRO, Egypt -- It was a day filled with rare good news for Iraq's new prime minister: Not only did he announce the death of the country's most-feared terror leader, he also won approval for new ministers on security, charged with stopping the violence in Iraq.

With that rapid series of breakthroughs, Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki firmly established his control, setting the stage for what he pledges will be a sharp crackdown to restore order. U.S. officials seemed overjoyed, keenly aware that their ability to trim the number of U.S. troops depends on his success.

The three posts that al-Maliki named Thursday are crucial to that effort _ the defense minister to run the army, the interior minister to run the national police and the national security minister to advise the prime minister.

The posts had been deadlocked for weeks by squabbling among Shiites, Sunnis and Kurds. But the new ministers were quickly approved by Parliament on Thursday, just minutes after al-Maliki announced the death of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the leader of al-Qaida in Iraq.

U.S. military and Iraqi officials said the timing was coincidental; indeed, Iraqi political leaders said the final agreement on the new ministers came late Wednesday, before news of al-Zarqawi's death was known.

If anything, that made the achievement even more impressive.

In the end, al-Maliki _ widely viewed as a pragmatist _ apparently was able to break the Sunni-Shiite-Kurdish logjam over the posts by picking technocrats, less likely to aggravate either old, Saddam Hussein-era prejudices or the country's virulent new sectarian divides.

The Interior Ministry was the hottest button.

Sunnis had accused the previous interior minister, a Shiite, of allowing Shiite death squads to operate from inside his ministry, and were determined to get a more neutral figure this time.

The new interior minister, Jawad al-Bolani, is also a Shiite but _ as an independent member of the dominant Shiite United Iraqi Alliance _ is considered so neutral that no Sunnis objected to his name. Almost a political unknown, he had worked, he said, as an engineer in the Iraqi air force until 1999.

The new defense minister, Iraqi Army Gen. Abdul-Qader Mohammed Jassim al-Mifarji, is a Sunni Arab unaffiliated with any party. He was thrown out of the military and Saddam's Baath Party in 1991 after he criticized the invasion of Kuwait and received a seven-year prison term, he said.

"As a defense minister I will work for all Iraqis and will not work according to my tribal, religious and ethnic background," he said after he was named.The new national security minister, Sherwan al-Waili, who will advise the prime minister on security matters, also is a Shiite but also considered neutral.

With those three key Cabinet posts now filled, al-Maliki can presumably turn to the still-overwhelming tasks ahead _ including reining in militias and getting Iraqi forces trained and cohesive enough to slowly take over from the U.S. military.

For an Iraqi public that craves security, that would be good news. And al-Maliki's announcement of the death of al-Zarqawi could create a well of good will and support, just what he needs to take on other, difficult security tasks like shutting down militias.

Yet despite Thursday's success, no one expects the way to be easy for al-Maliki, a veteran insider in Iraq's oldest Shiite political party who spent years in exile after receiving a death sentence from Saddam's regime.

While his more pragmatic stance may have helped resolve the Cabinet stalemate, al-Maliki still will need much help from both his fellow Iraqis and other Arabs, all working to "take advantage of the gap left behind by al-Zarqawi to gain back his followers," said one political analyst, Mohammed El-Sayed of the Al-Ahram Center for Strategic Studies in Cairo.

Thursday's events make clear that al-Maliki is determined to try.

Sally Buzbee, the AP's Chief of Middle East News, reports often from Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 09:06 AM

Woody (AKA Old Guy)--

"rare" good news. From 8 June. Haven't you been able to find anything more recent than that--and from a reputable source like the Washington Post, not your normal Fox News, etc? If I can quote the Wall St Journal in support of my views, you should always be able to find something left of center to support yours.

We will treat your postings with all the respect they deserve.

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 09:37 AM

Yes, I recognize that your article is from the Washington Post. All I'm saying is keep it up--citing--more recent--articles from similar mainstream sources--not Fox News etc. Although, as Steven Colbert pointed out, Fox News does in fact, as Doug R indicated, give both sides of a story--the president's side and the vice president's side.

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 10:46 AM

http://www.canada.com/reginaleaderpost/news/viewpoints/story.html?id=4d06ab20-8d17-4cf2-b82e-37615d5b717f

Mood of hope in Iraq

The Leader-Post
Published: Saturday, June 17, 2006

As the U.S. announced that the number of its military personnel killed in Iraq had reached 2,500 this week, an unexpected mood was in the air -- optimism.

Buoyed by the June 7 air strike that killed Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, al-Qaida's leader in Iraq, U.S. and Iraqi forces have since carried out almost 400 raids on insurgent fighters, seizing 28 "significant" collections of arms. There has also been a small decline in violence in recent days.

But the U.S. and Iraqi governments say the best news is contained in a purported al-Qaida document found in an alleged hideout sometime in the past three weeks. The Iraqi government released a transcript this week in which al-Qaida leaders say their terror campaign is in "bleak" shape because of an increase in Iraqi forces trained by the U.S., a large number of arrests, weapons seizures and financial problems.

The document suggested a change of tactics might be needed that could include involving the U.S. in a "war against another country".

While recent events have been encouraging, many other supposed "turning points" have come and gone:

- Saddam Hussein's military quickly collapsed after the March 20, 2003, invasion, with Baghdad in U.S. hands by April 9;

- President George W. Bush confidently declared on May 1, 2003, that "major combat operations in Iraq have ended";

- Saddam was captured in December 2003;

- After five months of negotiations following

December's general elections, Iraq's parliament approved a new government in May.

Throughout, the bloody insurgency by Saddam loyalists and al-Qaida has continued and more than 30,000 Iraqi civilians are believed to have been killed since the invasion.

Still, perhaps a dash of optimism is what the world needs on Iraq -- so long as everyone remains realistic about the tough days that undoubtedly lie ahead.
© The Leader-Post (Regina) 2006

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 10:53 AM

" Many other supposed 'turning points' have come and gone."

The proof of the pudding....

Today, 10 have been kidnapped in Baghdad--from a bakery, yet. Things do not appear under control, I'd say.

An inconvenient truth---and not for liberals.

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 11:27 AM

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/16/AR2006061601265.htmlNew Tape Says Zarqawi Death 'Great Loss'

By SALAH NASRAWI
The Associated Press
Friday, June 16, 2006; 6:40 PM

CAIRO, Egypt -- A key insurgency leader in Iraq said the U.S. killing of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi was a "great loss," but one that will strengthen the militants' determination, according to an audio tape broadcast Friday.

The Al-Jazeera network said the voice on the tape was that of Abu Abdullah Rashid al-Baghdadi, the head of the Mujahedeen Shura Council, which groups five Iraqi insurgent organizations including al-Qaida in Iraq. But the authenticity of the tape couldn't immediately be verified.
        

"This is a message to the enemies of God, the crusaders, the rejectionists and the renegades," the voice says, referring respectively to U.S.-led forces, Shiites, and Sunnis in the government. "The martyrdom of the leader will not change the arena of confrontation. Rather, it will become fiercer and stronger."

The tape appeared to be an attempt to rally support for the insurgents after last week's killing of al-Zarqawi, the leader of al-Qaida in Iraq who died when U.S. forces bombed the house north of Baghdad where he was meeting his advisers.

"This leader (al-Zarqawi) has laid the foundations and his great loss will not lead to weakness. He will remain a symbol for all the mujahideen, who will take strength from his steadfastness," the speaker says.

Significantly, the speaker does not mention the man that the insurgent group has chosen to replace al-Zarqawi _ Abu Ayub al-Masri, also known as Abu Hamza al-Muhajer. The lack of such a reference may suggest that al-Baghdadi does not support him.

Some terror experts mentioned al-Baghdadi as the possible successor of al-Zarqawi, but the U.S. military believe al-Qaida in Iraq is now led by al-Masri, an Egyptian-born terrorist who trained with al-Zarqawi in Afghanistan.

Al-Baghdadi is believed to be a former officer in Saddam's army, or its elite Republican Guard, who has worked closely with al-Zarqawi since the overthrow of the Iraqi dictator in April 2003

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 01:07 PM

Main question is the degree to which "the insurgency" is irrelevant. Is there enough bad blood, because of all the (continuing) killings, between Shiites and Sunnis that the civil war will continue regardless of the titular "head of al Queda in Iraq"? The only way the new Iraq government can prevent this is to ensure that all the official government forces are perceived as even-handed by the Sunnis---that, is that they are not riddled with Shiite militia. And, as I said, "de-Baathification" will have to be severely curtailed. Reconciliation is the only way.

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: Amos
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 04:06 PM

I guess the most inconvenient truth for neo-cons and their ilk is that the entire repute of this Presidency now hinges on whether one Iraqi politician, Prime Minister Maliki, can cover his ass for him by pulling the shreds of the country together. The reason this is so ois because the invasion of Iraq was an act of supreme arrogance and ignorance, in which the real ground situation was totally misestimated by an incompetent Administration.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 04:27 PM

And we also need to remember that neo-cons should not in any way be equated with "conservatives".

Neo-Cons are the opposite of conservative.

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 04:36 PM

If two billion people do an insane and stupid thing, it is still an insane and stupid thing.

Art

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 05:21 PM

Neo-Cons are the opposite of conservative.

Now, if only the conservatives will realize & admit this, and the American Gutless Wonder Party (a.k.a. Dems) can remember what they're supposed to stand for- There may be a sliver of hope.

But I'm not holding my breath. Muscular Stupidity is currently ascendant
in the U.S. of A.

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 07:38 AM

News today not looking any better

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 10:22 AM

Well quit doing it Art.

Subject: RE: BS: Inconvenient truths for Libs
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 11:20 AM

"If two billion people do an insane and stupid thing, it is still an insane and stupid thing."

Yeah, like...shaving....or...watching "Survivor"...or gambling at the casinos.... ;-)