BS: drug addiction and family/home destroyed

Subject: RE: BS: drug addiction and family/home destroyed
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 08:06 PM

Well done on showing the iniative. Perhaps it was a wake up call, just not the type you envisaged, but in it's way even more important.

It let you see where your ex's priorities lay and armed with that knowledge you are now planning your daughter's future without any maybes or what ifs.

It'll be hard being two parents. And the pleasure of being able to share your daughter's successes with the other parent is being denied you. I hope you have good family/friends around you to help. And never feel ashamed to ask for help.

And already you have noticed the effect in your daughter of having the destabilising influence lessened. That must tell you that you are doing the right thing. So don't doubt yourself.

Yes, you now must ensure your daughter is safe when with her mother, because if it all goes pear shaped you will not only blame yourself but you will be left to deal with the consequences alone.

I hope you look into the option of a contact centre. It offers all three of you a solution regarding them seeing each other. But it removes the invariables.

Subject: RE: BS: drug addiction and family/home destroyed
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 08:27 PM

Guest

After reading that suggestion for the first time here tonight, I have called a lawyer friend to discuss it. It may be a possibility, but even if the court agrees (which they may be lothe to do) it won't be enforceable till the hearing at the beginning of november.

There are, in the meantime other ways of getting her to be prudent though, which I can't go into here for obvious reasons, but rest assured they exist.

Guest, I appreciate your focus, understanding and relevant commentary. :-)

To revise an answer I gave on another thread, I do my best thinking when I am confronted by someone elses.

Being online, and connected to a resource like the mudcat (and within that I include it's members) is like having a second brain which is connected to a global consciousness.

If I'd been watching tv I'd still be struggling with square one of this thread on my own.

I must now go to bed as it is very late and the little one doesn't need a cranky Daddy in the morning!

Night night folks

Subject: RE: BS: drug addiction and family/home destroyed
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 08:34 PM

No problem. Sleep well, only seven hours until the Tweenies!

Subject: RE: BS: drug addiction and family/home destroyed
From: Barry Finn
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 02:17 AM

Hi Lox
Do not have any interaction with her dealers. For one it could be misread if the dealer is under survalience & 2nd it may get you killed. A guy I grew up with told his girlfreind's dealer (same situation as you're in) to stop selling to her. The dealer shot him in the head.
I don't think you're really taking this as the drastic situation that it is. You're concerned about the mother's health, welfare & emotional well being, I got news for you, she's not interested in you or your daughter's. Your daughter will get over having a junkie for a mother but she won't get over any harm that's done her by you taking this to lightly or not moving on this swiftly enough. If you need to expose her at her workplace, do it now. If you need to do anything, do it now before your little girl's the worst for it. Please don't take my comments lightly. As I said this was my life, it is also my younger brother's present life (only he is the cause)you won't come closer to anyone else who has lived what your daughter will live. Good luck. PM me if you care to, I'd be happy to help in any way.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: drug addiction and family/home destroyed
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 07:33 AM

Lox, Barry's right about dealers - do not have any truck with them. The ones you'll come into contact with have no interest in anyone's well-being other than their own, and are usually addicts themselves who deal in order to support their own habit. You can't bargain with them and, whilst you may be able to scare the immediate guy (who is very much a bottom-feeder in the scale of things), you won't put the frighteners on the guys further up the chain, his suppliers - the ones with the expensive houses, Mercedes or BMW 4x4s on the driveway, kids in private schools, wives wearing Jimmy Choo shoes etc.

It's a crock of shit you need to keep out of - look after your daughter but cast your ex adrift. If she falls into a hole, it's her problem. You have to step away, your sanity demands it.

And best wishes once again.
S:0)

Subject: RE: BS: drug addiction and family/home destroyed
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 07:45 AM

Ultimataly supervised contact (or at the very least very reduced contact are the only answers to all problems stated above.)

As regards my responsibilities to the NHS, I think I will wait till my situation has simmered down before committing to anything, though I agree that I cannot ignore them in good conscience.

Subject: RE: BS: drug addiction and family/home destroyed
From: jacqui.c
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 08:54 AM

One thought comes to mind. Do you think that this woman ever felt any real love for your daughter? Seems to me that, when she got pregnant she saw that as a bargaining tool to hold over your head with not a thought to the damage that her habit might do to the child she was carrying.

So far as her job is concerned, from the irresponsible way that she has behaved with your daughter it is highly likely that she will be found out at work, perhaps after causing harm to a patient. At that point it is likely that she will be dismissed, particularly if she does not have you to run interference for her this time.

I doubt that your daughter will really be more ashamed of having a prostitute for a mother than a drug addict. Her major problem may be that her mother left and didn't take her and that you need to be aware of.

From your point of view - and this may sound hard - the further this woman goes down the better are your chances of retaining custody of your daughter. As has been previously stated - you must consider what is best for you and the child. This woman has chosen her own path, in spite of the responsibility she was given as a mother and the only person that can change that is her.

Subject: RE: BS: drug addiction and family/home destroyed
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 09:24 AM

The last 'GUEST' posting was me BTW!
S:0)

Subject: RE: BS: drug addiction and family/home destroyed
From: wysiwyg
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 09:31 AM

lox,

In any custody hearing, you will want to be able to speak compassionately about your ex, sincerely hoping she will get help, and hoping that her broken relationship with her daughter can someday be healed for your daughter's sake-- so that the court does not interpret your accusations about the harmful behavior as the revenge of a former lover. BuT you also need to be proactive about getting your daughter protected.

What means do you have of documenting what happened with this awful "visitation" experience? Do you keep written notes of what occurs, and how you learned about it? Do you have anyone who can speak of it, as a witness, other than your daughter?

Did you take a picture of your daughter's condition (red bottom)?

And... how did you learn where she had taken your daughter that night? If it was from your ex, can you tape her saying it again?

Is there anyone who can follow her when she is next due to have time with her daughter?

It isn't pretty in the trenches, when it comes to custody issues. Is your attorney well-versed in the ins and outs?

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: drug addiction and family/home destroyed
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 01:08 PM

Only supervised contact. Not reduced contact. Have you read up on meth addiction? You might as well say she can drag the daughter with her to hell on a reduced basis because that is what she will do. Your daughter will be exposed to the scum of the earth (valuable as people nonetheless) behavior-wise ...people who here in my area are responsible for 80% or so of crimes, of 80% or so of children taken to foster care. And were you referring to my comment about her being molested? I am going next week to a camp for girls who have been -- some are five years old. It is not a pretty sight. mg

Subject: RE: BS: drug addiction and family/home destroyed
From: growler
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 04:32 PM

I work for a charity,in the drug and alcohol misuse field try this site    http://www.drugs.gov.uk/dat/directory/

Subject: RE: BS: drug addiction and family/home destroyed
From: leeneia
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 04:40 PM

What if the woman abducts your daughter or goes into a trance and leaves her somewhere?

Can your daughter pronounce her name clearly? Can she pronounce yours clearly? Can she say what city she lives in?

Even if you can, you should write her name in all her clothes.

Wotthehell. Before a visit, take a marker and write your name and phone number right on your daughter.

My newspaper had an article about a woman who needs medical insurance for her foster children. One was girl who was sold into prostitution at the age of four for drugs.

Subject: RE: BS: drug addiction and family/home destroyed
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 04:44 PM

Wysiwyg

I have a plan to "catch" her lying and will incorporate a witness - not a hard thing to do, though I'll explain the strategy once I have done it.


mg

I do take your point seriously, but would just like to differentiate between Meth-amphetamine and Speed (plain old amphetamine). My ex uses the latter.

I don't see the danger as being immediate, but as being potentially a longer term threat as she is encouraged by her mother to find that lifestyle and the people who live it to be normal. She will thus be naive in a potentially harmful situation having learned no sense of wariness towards the potential risks that the drugs and the people who do them and sell them pose.

Subject: RE: BS: drug addiction and family/home destroyed
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 05:21 PM

From the opening post:

the last time it was her turn to have our little girl around to give her her evening meal, she took her to her dealers instead.

Anyone "dealing" will sell anything to anybody.

Two year old girls are a very marketable commodity in this context.

THAT scares the Hell out of me.

The safety of your daughter comes first, and it's quite obvious that you've recognized that. In a different context, I've been made quite aware of the difficulties encountered when one must seek help in "the system," and can only offer my profound sympathy with the difficulties you face.

Don't back off.

John

Subject: RE: BS: drug addiction and family/home destroyed
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 10:57 PM

You're right..I saw amphetamine and thought meth...but how long before she progresses? mg

Subject: RE: BS: drug addiction and family/home destroyed
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 11:33 PM

I don't see the danger as being immediate

I have been involved for the past almost three years, on a daily basis, in raising our grandson. They are incredibly impressionable from birth on and do not have the skills, verbal and otherwise, to KNOW what is "good" or "bad." They need someone who will protect them at all times, i.e. keep them from such bad influences as your ex. If you don't see an immediate danger, I feel sorry for your little girl. As others have said, a drug addict and their dealer are NOT safe people to have a young one around, girl or boy. It seems you are aware of this and are doing what you can to make sure she is safe, but that statement, above, really sets off alarm bells. ANY contact with a user and/or their dealer can present an immediate danger to ANYONE, more so to a small child, imo.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: drug addiction and family/home destroyed
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 07:55 AM

kat

The immediate danger of which I spoke was a specific response to mg's concerns about molestation. The dangers which result from havng drugs around are of course immediate and that is what I am fighting to do something about, but it is reassuring to those of you who are interested that she is not in danger of being assaulted by a meth addict.

mg

Her use of amphetamines is directly linked to an eating disorder which is part of a personality disorder that she has had since her teens, and which she will have for the rest of her life.

Originally the Speed was used to self medicate as it is an appetite surpressant. That aspect of it's use is still an essential part of the addiction, but unfortunately you can't choose which effect of the drug you want. The effects are an all or nothing package, as are the consequences. so her addiction to it is as comprehensive by this stage (8 years) as it would be for any other addict.

The eating disorder however remains, and no other drug will do in that regard, so there is unlikely to be any progression.

Subject: RE: BS: drug addiction and family/home destroyed
From: leeneia
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 09:37 AM

What about your daughter's safety while riding in a car? Is she in a car seat? Does her mother drive safely at all times?

If the answers are No, then your child is in immediate danger.

Subject: RE: BS: drug addiction and family/home destroyed
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 09:39 AM

Have another quick read of the first post (which I am assuming this is a response to) The car was a metaphor to describe our life.

Fortunately my ex has no car or license.

Subject: RE: BS: drug addiction and family/home destroyed
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 09:49 AM

While the biological damage to a meth user is virtually permanent, the habit of use is not. Where there is life there is hope.

Subject: RE: BS: drug addiction and family/home destroyed
From: GUEST,NHS patient
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 11:43 AM

does the state of her teeth publicly proclaim her speed addiction
to her patients and employers ?

I'd be concerned by any health worker treating me
who looks iller than I do..

[memories of a dentist in East London who stank of alchohol at 9.00am]

Subject: RE: BS: drug addiction and family/home destroyed
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 12:30 PM

something seems a bit fishy in this story. just some jarring notes, twists and turns and inconsistencies of tone. hope this isn't someone manipulating a lot of genuine emotional reaction for their own ends/self-justification/amusement. aplogies of course if not.

Subject: RE: BS: drug addiction and family/home destroyed
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 12:44 PM

Lox - I grew up in a family with a substance abuse issue. My parent eventually recovered and things got healed properly. However, since I was in my midteens when the recovery took place, I was fully aware of just how close to total annhilation our family came. I need to say some things to you as the daughter of an 'addict'

You are the sober parent.
You are the one in a postion to protect your child
You are the only one right now who can take certain measures to protect her
You are not married to her mother
As a result, what happens to her mother should be secondary in your concerns
Your child's fuuture mental health depends on what you do now to protect her NOW, not what happens to her mother now.

I know you worry about how she will be impacted if her mother falls even further. However, That is something you don't currently have the luxury of obsessing about. Your ex-girlfriend is a threat to your daughters life, health and emotional wellbeing. You must gather the strength to DISPASSIONATELY do whatever it takes to keep this woman away from your daughter until such time as she has recovered and has been sober for a substantial period of time.

Your ex is a nurse and under the influence of susbtances that greatly impair her judgement. She could kill patients. it is appropriate for you to disclose her condition to her superiors if you have the documentation to prove your accusations. Exposing her substance abuse is appropriate and may help you get the court protection your daughter needs.

As for the visitations - if she has legal right to visitation, you must see about getting those visits ordered to be supervised. The last incident with her taking her to a dealer and then leaving her in a dirty diaper.. should be enough to get an emergency order.
Here in the USA, a father can get a mother's parental rights TERMINATED for such behavior. I don't know what your legal adviser says about such things, bu6t I do hope you are confiding in him/her all these things.

I know she is the mother of your child and you aren't a monster and therefore you are hoping she will have some sort of relationship with the girl. That's good. However, if I could have been heard when my life was in danger from my parent's addiction (and it was in danger frequently) I would have said:

"Mummy/Daddy/Whomever, please for godsake make this insanity stop. Do not leave me alone with this parent! Please tell whomever you have to what is going on: Grandmother/father, teachers, police, clergy, social workers, whomever. I don't care. Just keep me safe. Sure I love {Parent}, but they frighten me. They do things in my presence I shouldn't have to see and expose me to dangers no child should have to endure. These experiences confuse me and make me afraid. All I want is for somebody to stand up and be the adult. If I have to choose between being safe and never seeing {parent} again, I choose never seeing {parent}. If you love me, please protect me and don't make me go with {parent} again until {parent} is sober. Although I am young, these scary encounters affect me. Please just let me be a child. Do what you must and when I am older, I will be so grateful"

I hope that's not to harsh. If I had been able to speak up when I was very little, that is what i would have said.

Subject: RE: BS: drug addiction and family/home destroyed
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 01:36 PM

Thanks for the clarification, lox.

Subject: RE: BS: drug addiction and family/home destroyed
From: GUEST,Gayle
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 01:41 PM

As a professional educator working in the UK with children of drug addicts the first priority is to keep the child safe and allow her to be a child.
She needs to be taken away from the situation so she can make her own mind up when she's old enough if she wants contact with her mother.

I'm surprised that social services haven't already taken her into care so that her parents can sort their own lives out.

Subject: RE: BS: drug addiction and family/home destroyed
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 02:56 PM

Why on earth would social services take a child into care with one caring and perfectly functioning parent?

They are none too quick at taking a child into care with only one disfunctional parent in their life as sole carer.

Subject: RE: BS: drug addiction and family/home destroyed
From: GUEST,concerned bystander
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 03:35 PM

Are we all satisfactorily convinced that a lone 'careing' parent
is necessarily a 'perfectly functioning parent'?

there are many questions still needing to be asked about the case scenario and the true competance of the father
as presented here !?

sorry if this offends GUEST,lox;

but as you rightly insist,
the genuine welfare & safety of your child is paramount
beyond all other considerations and doubts.

Subject: RE: BS: drug addiction and family/home destroyed
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 05:28 PM

Fair enough,

but it is not enough to merely say that there may be inconsistencies, or that we may not know this or that - By the same token, the child and the mother may not even exist at all, or these posts may be being written by a consortium of experimenting psychologists all intent on recording the reactions of mudcaters to the scenario.

Many things may or may not be the case.

Imaginaton is useful as a tool with which to understand and evaluate, but there must be some reference to the actual content of the thread in question.

Please feel free to read back through it and offer examples of inconsistencies or areas of concern so that we may have the benefit of seeing how you arrive at a position where you feel these questions may need to be asked.

And for the record, as part of the proceedings, a court appointed child welfare officer investigates the matter by interviewing both parents and checking out the childs home environment etc, and produces a report.

The paragraph about me is about 4 lines long and states quite simply that there are "no concerns about me whatsoever" as a parent, while there is on the other hand extensive commentary on the mothers use of drugs, psychological issues and ability to prioritize in the interests of her child.

Subject: RE: BS: drug addiction and family/home destroyed
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 05:51 PM

Lox here's a hypothetical question for you -

You and ex are together very happily, she has always been a model mum and never gone near drugs. You both work and leave your daughter with a paid registered child minder. You find out that one day the paid registered child minder has taken your daughter to her dealer as she is heavily into speed.You never knew about her problems before.

What would you do? What would your daughter's mother do?

Subject: RE: BS: drug addiction and family/home destroyed
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 06:10 PM

Ok

I will honour this line of pursuit for now in the faith that it leads somewhere concrete, though it is important for me to note that there is so much to be getting on with that isn't hypothetical, (and hypothetical scenarios sit so differently in different peoples imaginations), that it may turn out to be unproductive and I do not wish to waste my time by indulging a fantasy scenario to the exclusion of a serious matter, the consequences of which I and my daughter have to live with all day every day.
___________


1. I would instantly sackthe childminder and report them to the police.

2. I don't know what her mother would do, but I would hope that she would view the situation with as much concern as I would.

Where is this leading?

Subject: RE: BS: drug addiction and family/home destroyed
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 06:17 PM

"You and ex are together very happily, she has always been a model mum and never gone near drugs"

These are circumstances that I have never had the luxury of knowing so it takes a big leap of imagination, however, one thing I can say is that if the circumstances you describe above were real, my day to day life, according to my current levels of expectation and appreciation, would be happy, fulfilling, concern free, optimistic and part of an ideal world.

This is a fantasy that I have long since been forced to accept is hurtful to hope for, and consequently presents serious problems to the soundness of the hypothesis.

Subject: RE: BS: drug addiction and family/home destroyed
From: jacqui.c
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 06:19 PM

I think what Guest 5.51 is suggesting that mother/childminder should be interchangeable. If you would take that action against someone paid to take care of your daughter where is the problem with taking the action against the child's mother?

I can't say that I altogether agree with the premise - there is a difference in the degree of connection between the two. However, I do think that mother needs to be 'sacked' in her own way for the sake of the little girl.

Subject: RE: BS: drug addiction and family/home destroyed
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 06:31 PM

You can't sack a mother.

You can't employ a new one.

Even if you could or wanted to eclipse the mother from the childs life completely, it is not a decision that a father has the right to make, legally or morally.

The child won't really miss their childminder or be traumatised by their sacking like they will their mother.

The child won't need sensitive and considerate understanding throughout their upbringing on the subject of their childminder as regards their questions, understanding and experience of their mother and their relationship with her and her fathers relationship with her and (as she gets older) her mothers behaviour and addiction etc.

The two scenario's are completely incomparable except in the respect that they are doing drugs on the one hand, and expected to give care on the other.

A childs welfare and emotional health run much deeper than that.

PS, who is this lovely sounding mother? I'd love to meet her. Her partner and kids are very lucky to have her.

Subject: RE: BS: drug addiction and family/home destroyed
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 07:07 PM

Ok Lox I will explain where I was going, jacqui was kind of there, but what I was thinking is that if mother and childminder should both display the same level of care to your daughter if they are in charge of her. then Mother and childminder should also both face the same consequences if they neglect their charge.

Of course as you point out on an emotional level, the 'type' of care from a mother will run deeper, but without the child being safe, there are no emotions to consider. Safety should always be the number one concern. Emotions when fuelled by the wrong type of care are dangerous.

I thought it might be hurtful for you to imagine but couldn't avoid that, sorry.

Sacking the mother sounds very emotively charged. I think suspension might be closer to what I was pondering. It is up to her now to prove she is up to the job of taking care of a child. That sounds cold doesn't it? But so does taking a child to a dealer. To anyone outside the situation that sounds a definite suspension offence. Some would say sackable, but the mother has the right to change, whether she decides to or not should be the basis of what you decide is in the child's interest in the future.

Knowing the mother as you do, is she likely to turn up at a pre arranged time for the supervised contact, if that can be arranged? If so, then you have some kind of solution. But how about if she forgets/oversleeps/does something else instead..she has spun you lame excuses before. Then you have the makings of a very disturbed daughter who is going to feel very let down by a parent. Your daughter won't care that her mother's unreliability is a side of her 'illness', she will suffer emotionally.

When I suggested earlier that some counsellors would suggest you 'pull the rug out' and inform her employers, you said you didn't want to act out of malice. And you didn't feel strong enough to stand up for the NHS.

There is another way of looking at it,which is more what I had in mind when I suggested it, you could be helping her, like I said her employers are in the business to offer psychiatric help. The NHS will have a staff counselling service I imagine, they would fight her corner and she probably wouldn't be sacked if she took visible steps to overcome her problems.

I know I also suggested the option of a contact centre and short term I still would run with that, but unless she also takes steps to beat the addiction, what you are actually doing is allowing a drug user who doesn't see the need to change, access to your daughter. And I can see the 'letting her down' scenario developing. Which could be more damaging long term, than the daughter not seeing her mother at all until she is clean.

It's tricky.

Subject: RE: BS: drug addiction and family/home destroyed
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 08:16 PM

Yes.

Don't worry, no offence taken, I am more than willing to be challenged.

The problem with your being called GUEST is that I don't know if you are the same person who last adressed me using that moniker or somebody new, so I need to get to the point ASAP rather than risk being trolled.

Either way though, I am not afraid of an opposing point of view or a difficult question. I am honest and hopefully a little more than functionally literate too, so I will always give as full and fair an answer as I can.

The "letting her down" scenario is something that I predict will be the reality. There will be contact between them and that is a cold hard reality of life legally, no matter what I might try and do.

I will try and ensure that that contact is arranged in such a way that My daughter is as safe as possible from harmful influences.

It strikes me that contact being entirely denied would, apart from other reasons, be counterproductive anyway as it would not allow my daughter to develop her own view of her mother, and so she might be vulnerable to cock and bull stories from her down the line or manipulation as she begins to develop greater curiosity on the subject of our family breakdown and the reasons for it.

I have heard it said that children often develop resentment towards the parent who has sheltered them if they feel they have been unfairly denied a relationship with the absent parent. This is a factor that mother could in future manipulate to her own advantage at potential risk to daughters welfare.

"Daddy was wrong, there was nothing wrong with the way I behaved, it was just a bit of harmless this and that and the other and nothing to feel bad about. Here why don't you rebel and show just how off track he really was, cos it would sure perk me up and take away some of those feelings of guilt to know that you think it's all ok, and ultimately I put me not having to feel bad above my responsibilities to you."

With contact, she would (especially in later life) have the opportunity to see how the words and the actions don't match up and would be able to form a deeper, better informed, more realistic impression of her mom.

My function as an absolutely reliable and stable factor in my daughters life will hopefully be the main preventative remedy to that problem.

I must ensure that I foster a great relationship with her and do my best to listen to all her concerns properly so that 1. I don't become out of touch with her life, needs and concerns and 2. so that she always has somewhere to go and somebody to talk to. Feeling secure and confident within herself are the real key to her happiness.

I know that this is every parents ideal scenario and that many parents who think they are doing a great job in this respect can wake up one day to find that they have been living in cloud cuckoo land. Hopefully though, by making it a priority , having an open mind and being prepared to learn rather than believing that I know it all, I will be able to offer the kind of emotional support and provide the healthy grounding that my daughter is likely to need in future. It is an ongoing process and the groundwork began yesterday (and the day before that).

Oh yes, and - sorry to be pedantic but -

"As regards my responsibilities to the NHS, I think I will wait till my situation has simmered down before committing to anything, though I agree that I cannot ignore them in good conscience"

does not equate to:

"you didn't feel strong enough to stand up for the NHS."

My daughter provides me with inexhaustable endurance and determination by merely existing. The NHS question has more to do with legal practicalities and timing.

Subject: RE: BS: drug addiction and family/home destroyed
From: GUEST,OWL
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 08:52 PM

That's ok, a bit of well meaning pedantry never hurt anyone.

But I probably didn't explain well enough - I don't think you actually have responsibilities to the NHS, well no more than any of us, and you have enough on your plate for it not to be taking up your energy. What I meant was by reporting her, getting a third party to confront her, possibly offer support etc you would be fulfilling your resposibilities to your daughter.

OK the knock on effect is that the NHS will maybe end up with an employee more suitable to her job than she is at present, but that isn't your concern at the moment, your daughter is.

I agree with you that contact shouldn't be entirely denied, but I do think it should be conditional, and those conditions start with the mother getting help. Otherwise she is accepting no responsibility at all for her actions, she will continue and your daughter will be let down and suffer because of it.

Parenthood comes with responsibilty and a full set of working ovaries doesn't qualify someone to the right to mother. I think as children get older they will, as you say, draw their own conclusions based on the actions of their errant parent, but your daughter is still so vulnerable and not equipped emotionally to draw those conclusions and deal with them.

I'm not you, but I wouldn't commence any form of contact until conditions are agreed to and acted upon. You said yourself she will let the child down eventually, why wait for the inevitable to happen, try and force her hand into that not being an option. If she doesn't agree to embark on a recovery programme she is telling you that she prefers speed over your daughter and she therefore should not be anywhere near her.

A solicitor will send letters detailing those conditions and follow up if they have been acted upon. You will have heaps of documentary evidence for your daughter for the future. She will not be in the dark at all about the reasons for the relationship breakdown. That is a plus, it won't boil down to 'she said he said.'

In an ideal world she will realise you mean business and get the help she needs.

I wasn't the guest who posted today, sorry for the confusion. The first time was about an hour ago and you replied to that. For this thread I shall be OWL, if that helps. Just because it is late, oh and my head spins around 360 degrees.

And now it's really late and I'm going to my nest.

Subject: RE: BS: drug addiction and family/home destroyed
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 08:55 PM

to whit

so am I

Subject: RE: BS: drug addiction and family/home destroyed
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 08:55 PM

to who

that was me by the way

Subject: RE: BS: drug addiction and family/home destroyed
From: wysiwyg
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 10:37 PM

Lox,

I think you know what you need to do, and how to go about it. I think this thread has had the potential to become (and now is becoming) a serious drain on your time and attention, sort of an addiction in itself. Bottom line is, ya gotta be the best parent you can be, period, isn't it?

In friendship,

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: drug addiction and family/home destroyed
From: GUEST,Mens perspective
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 11:30 PM

pardon me for well intentioned bluntness man,
but it seems to me you're making too much of a meal of stressing yourself out over future "what ifs" and "might she"'s.

Its obvious to everyone that the only priority is here and now putting as much safe distance between your kid
and her junkie mother,
for as far and long as necessary until the woman either starts to pull herself back together
and kicks the dealer outa her life;

[or he, and maybe she, gets arrested, or dies]

..and while you face up to the realities of being a good solid effective single parent
in the eyes of state welfare authorities,
who may always retain the option of stepping in
to releive you of responsibility for your kid,
if you ever come to their attention and concern as being a weak incapable father.

Its a much more simple crisis than the over-wraught
soap opera you seem to be writing yourself into for the next 16 years or more.

take care man.

and I so hope and wish this actually is a cynical fiction
to stir up mudcatters reactions,
and no guy is realy having to endure the dismal life you describe here.

Subject: RE: BS: drug addiction and family/home destroyed
From: GUEST,Another guest
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 11:32 PM

Sorry Lox but I think you're jerking our chain. I'm begining to think that you've made this up just for the pity factor. I hope I'm wrong.But if you can't see what you need to do by now then you're part of the problem - not the solution.Please - prove me wrong.Stop thinking and talking and do something.

Subject: RE: BS: drug addiction and family/home destroyed
From: Barry Finn
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 12:05 AM

Forge about this!

"I have heard it said that children often develop resentment towards the parent who has sheltered them if they feel they have been unfairly denied a relationship with the absent parent. This is a factor that mother could in future manipulate to her own advantage at potential risk to daughters welfare."

In mine & my sister's life we were told about our dad's problem (it was a sickness & that he did love us in his own way). He was kept out of our lives until it was clear that he was clean. Your daughter will be greatful for the protection. If her mother turns her life around in the future the mother will admit &/or explain what happened, if she doesn't get straight it will be very obvious.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: drug addiction and family/home destroyed
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 06:34 AM

GUEST another guest,

"Stop thinking and talking and do something"

You havent read the thread through.

Evryone else,

Everyone can benefit from a new perspective and to have their thoughts and feelings on important matters carefully and honestly scrutinized. I am no exception. It may be that somebody has an idea that nobody else would have considered. That is the advantage of these threads. There are potentially millions of different responses available.

I need a cross section of responses before I can claim to have been rigorous in my attempt to find the best approach.

I was looking for feedback and by this point in the thread I have had so much that is well considered and positive that I feel confident enough not to worry that somebody might see this as an exercise in fishing for pity.

WYSIWYG,

You're right that just about everything that can be said has been said, but it isn't counterproductive for people to add their tuppence if they fancy it.

I am in a different place now to where I was when it started, and for that I am grateful.

Subject: RE: BS: drug addiction and family/home destroyed
From: Alice
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 11:46 AM

Lox,
I don't know if this phrase is used in UK family law, but in the US there is the concept of

"FAILURE TO PROTECT".

Custody of a child can be taken from a parent if they FAIL TO PROTECT that child. If you continue to let your daughter be in an unsafe situation, you can be found guilty of Failure to Protect and your child can be placed somewhere else.

Children are born into the environment that adults create around them. Adults have choices and the power to move away, change situations. Infants and children don't have that power. Take control of this situation and make that child safe from the drug user!

Subject: RE: BS: drug addiction and family/home destroyed
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 12:10 PM

Lox - you don't seem to have heard me or read my post based on your response to others.

For heaven's sake.. I WAS your 'daughter' at one point in my life. I can tell you right now that I would love to have been able to foster some resentment towards a parent who protected me from the addict parent. Unfortunately, no such protection took place nor does it seem to be likely to take place for your daughter given your co-dependent hemming and hawing about what some future set of circumstances with her mohter will do to your duaghter.

Please hear me. You are spinning your wheels in this thread and using circular reasoning to justify not taking any action. Get some professional help for yourself or get to an Alanon meeting. You are currently part of the problem and can only be the solution if you choose to be. Your ex is not the enemy but she is the looming threat to your child's safety. You didn't put the drugs in her hand, you won't take them out of her hand but you CAN (with help from the court) mitigate the damage she has already done to your baby and will continue to do unless you take steps to stop it NOW.. not tomorrow, not after you sort out all the potential and theoretical implications.. NOW.

I'm done with this.

Subject: RE: BS: drug addiction and family/home destroyed
From: Wesley S
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 01:10 PM

I have a friend who has a sign posted on his bathroom mirror. It says "You are looking at the solution to all of your problems"

Subject: RE: BS: drug addiction and family/home destroyed
From: GUEST,thank God I'm not
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 01:38 PM

If I were a social worker faced with the circumstancial evidence
indicated here.
I'd be inclined to support initiatives to take the infant
into interim state care.

Removing and protecting her from all potential harm
while both biological mother and father
are investigated and evaluated for their mental and social fitness
to be trusted to act in the child's best long term interests
as a strong caring supportive guardian.

Subject: RE: BS: drug addiction and family/home destroyed
From: Janie
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 02:29 PM

Lox,

1. Read Dave's Wife's posts. Read them over-and-over-again. Read Barry Finn's posts. Read them over-and-over again.

2. From what you have said about your ex, she would be questionable as a parent even without the drug issues. Sounds like she is totally lacking in insight, and if she is severely borderline, or severely narcissistic or severely antisocial, she probably couldn't make much use of any insight she may develop. Her prognosis is guarded at best, and probably very poor. I am a psychotherapist and work with many people like her, as well as with many people who were raised by people like her. You can not assume that your daughter is better off having some kind of relationship with her mother. In addition to legal counsel, I strongly recommend you speak frankly and at length with an experienced child therapist, and listen carefully to what they advise. There are many, MANY, boundary issues in evidence from your posts, and I don't care how healthy or normal you may be yourself, when dealing with someone like your ex, you need help and support. The chaos that circles around some one who is significantly borderline reflects the chaos within them, and becomes like a mist or fog that blurs reality for those in association with them.

3. You absolutely can not assume your daughter is not at risk of being molested when in her mother's 'care'.

Janie

P.S.   This truly is an aside, and not at all about your primary concern-your daughter- but I have to say I am very concerned about patients in her care also. Psychiatric patients are an extremely vulnerable population and those of us who provide services are in a position to cause significant harm that can reverberate throughout the patient's life and negatively impact all future mental health care.

J.

Subject: RE: BS: drug addiction and family/home destroyed
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 04:44 PM

GUEST,thank God I'm not

You are entitled to any view you wish to hold, but in the interests of making a useful contribution to the thread, please refer to examples or noone will know how you have arrived at your position and I am sure I am not the only one who is curious to have it explained.


Daves wife.

You seem to fear that I was somehow compromising when I stated the following.

"There will be contact between them and that is a cold hard reality of life legally, no matter what I might try and do."

and I can see there might be some ambiguity in the next quote,

"Ultimataly supervised contact (or at the very least very reduced contact are the only answers to all problems stated above.)"

but would like to make clear that it is a reflection of the legal reality rather than of what I perceive to be the best option.

To reiterate, in this country there is no such thing as "no contact". It simply isn't a choice that I may legally make, and I do not intend to have myself arrested by interpol in Rio for kidnapping.

You said

"You are spinning your wheels in this thread and using circular reasoning to justify not taking any action"

If you read the thread again, you will see that I have taken lots of action and that I have done so succesfully against the odds.

The final hearing in all of this happens at the start of november, which is when I shall make my case for the best protected scenario that I and my daughter can hope for.

The in's and outs of the actual legal battle cannot be discussed here for obvious reasons.

Subject: RE: BS: drug addiction and family/home destroyed
From: GUEST,thank God I'm not
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 04:54 PM

lox re-read what you say and the way in which you express it...

Frankly, there is an emerging subtext for concern
to objective impartial mudcatters monitoring your situation;
as you continue to describe it
and react to other contributors here.

The childs welfare and immediate safety matters far more than you do.