BS: The difference between Sunnis and Shia

Subject: BS: The difference between Sunnis and Shia
From: Old Guy
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 02:52 PM

Seems like most of the violence (note I say most, not all) in Iraq is between the Sunis an Shia Muslims. Ever wonder why? There are many reasons but I think I know the main reason they hate each other. I may stand be corrected here because I am pretty clutzy with these culture things.

The Shia believe in Nikah Mut'ah which is a temporary marriage. The Sunni consider themselves more orthodox and are opposed.

So for that people should die? It's even worse then the Hatfields and Mcoys, the Democrats and Republicans, the north and the south.

Hezbollah is Shia and Hamas is Sunni so they are fighting with each other about how to kill the Jews.

Here are some more differences. And here.

Subject: RE: BS: The difference between Sunnis and Shia
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 03:02 PM

Didn't they sing I got you babe? The rows must have started after that.

Subject: RE: BS: The difference between Sunnis and Shia
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 03:29 PM

Its mostly political and has very little to do with differences in their faith. There are alot of Muslims and its just another struggle for power and it has been going on for a long time. Shia leaders are hereditary leaders while Sunni leaders gain power through more secular means or by violence.

Subject: RE: BS: The difference between Sunnis and Shia
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 04:14 PM

Isn't another difference in their attitude toward women? The Shi'a seem to believe that men get to make all the rules and that women must be 'protected' and sheltered from the vulgar glances of strange men.

The Sunni, on the other hand, educated their girls/women and women even had a political voice.

Subject: RE: BS: The difference between Sunnis and Shia
From: bobad
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 04:18 PM

It is difficult to separate religion from culture from politics in this region.

Subject: RE: BS: The difference between Sunnis and Shia
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 05:42 PM

bodad is correct. Look at the distribution of the two.
The major populations of Shia are found in Iran, part of Iraq, Yemen, Lebanon and part of Afganistan.

Sunnis are widespread, from eastern Europe and Turkey, Africa, Saudi and the Emirates, central Asia from Kazakstan to Pakistan and Bangledesh and east to Indonesia and southern Burma. There is a very wide range of religious practice. The Pushtun tribe of western and northern Pakistan and adjacent Afganistan is very restrictive; the Taliban are the younger generation, educated in the madrassas only on the Koran and a few other Muslim texts, and are struggling to regain power in Afganistan; attempts to eliminate them are ridiculous.
In Pakistan, authorities are careful to leave local power in the hands of the locals in the more traditional Pushtun areas.

Afganistan has never been a viable country; the central area and Kabul being Shia and the rest Sunni. Rulers holding power in Kabul never conquered the Sunni, esp. the Pushtun, regions of the country except for very short periods. Cooperation, not forced compliance, kept the area peaceful for long periods, and unified in the struggle against foreigners.

Iraq is the result of the forced break-up of the Ottoman Empire following their defeat by the Allies in WW1. The Ottomans never were able to force rigid controls over the whole area. Break-up of Iraq into areas depending on culture and tradition, Shia, Sunni and Kurdish, is probably the best solution, but opposition of Turkey to Kurdish independence, and how to split the income from resources such as oil are deterents.
Bagdad, unfortunately, is close to a boundary between Sunni and Shia, hence developed a mixed population, even mixed neighborhoods; controlled under Saddam Hussein, but now descending into sectarian chaos due to the interference by Bush.

Subject: RE: BS: The difference between Sunnis and Shia
From: Ron Davies
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 05:52 PM

The Kurds never wanted to be part of Iraq. Their goal was always a Kurdistan. And now they have achieved it--de facto. They are plenty smart enough to not insist on de jure independence for a LONG time--and meanwhile they have a thriving oil business--with Turkey, among others.

But as long as the Sunnis are not guaranteed 1) they can trust the police (not riddled with Shiite militias) and 2) they will get more oil revenue than would accrue to them just from "their" parts of Iraq---there will be no peace.

Subject: RE: BS: The difference between Sunnis and Shia
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 06:09 PM

How did the Sunnis become so powerful in a land where they are the minority?

Ask George Bush.

Too bad his plan to replace Saddam with another Sunni didn't work out. Now he has to settle for a Shia dominated government with close ties to Iran. Not what was planned at all.

Of course, a separate Kurdistan works well for the U.S. All they have to do now is insure that a conflict occurs between the Kurds and Turkey to secure a hold on the distribution of Kurdish oil.

Divide and conquer is the only game the U.S. knows how to play.

Fu*%ing warmongers!

Subject: RE: BS: The difference between Sunnis and Shia
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 06:39 PM

Well, seein' as Old Guy has narrowed the differences to Iraqi Sunnis and Shias the4 main difference is that I'd hate to be a Sunni in Iraq 'cause they are out to get you...

Subject: RE: BS: The difference between Sunnis and Shia
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 07:36 PM

The Sunni, on the other hand, educated their girls/women and women even had a political voice.

As in Saudi Arabia? Or in the case of the Taliban? Both Sunni regimes.

It's a lot more complicated than it get presented as. For example, most Kurds are Sunni Muslims, some are Shi'ite, but that's not a particularly relevant division.

The Baathist regime in Iraq was dominated by Sunni Arabs, and was also secular, with women having education and a political voice, but the one doesn't imply the other, any more than the fact that this is also true of the present Shi'ite regime in Iran (compared to other parts of the Middle East - it's all relative.)

If you apply this kind of generalising to Christians, saying Catholics are conservative minded and Protestants are liberal minded, or the other way round, you'd come unstuck very rapidly indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: The difference between Sunnis and Shia
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 07:57 PM

OK, OK, Kevin. I was speaking of a VERY narrow segment of Sunni-ism, under Saddam. OK?

My reference was to secularism in the middle East as opposed to religiousity, like the difference between Jordan and Iran, say.

Subject: RE: BS: The difference between Sunnis and Shia
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Nov 06 - 07:25 AM

No, sorry, Dianavan.

It is not in the US interest to have a conflict between the Kurds and Turkey. Among other things, they don't need one to ensure access to Kurdish oil. The Kurds (in "Kurdistan") are already happy to have US troops stationed on their territory--to forestall any possible pressure on them by Turkey--and are grateful for being supplied by the US since the end of the first Gulf War--and being defended by the no-fly zone. As I indicated already, at this point relations between Turkey and de facto Kurdistan are good--good enough at any rate for a lively commerce in oil between the the two.

A conspiracy theory is not always the most likely development in foreign policy.

Subject: RE: BS: The difference between Sunnis and Shia
From: oggie
Date: 06 Nov 06 - 02:23 PM

A friend has just returned from his last tour of duty in Afghanistan. He describes Afghanistan as being 'Dark Ages England but fought wuth modern weapons'. He also points out that it took England the thick end of 500 years to become a viable state! His worry for his friends still in the army is that Iraq could head down the same path, with them still in the middle.

All the best

oggie

Subject: RE: BS: The difference between Sunnis and Shia
From: Hrothgar
Date: 07 Nov 06 - 04:51 AM

The difference between Sunnis and Shia?

For Shia read Catholic, for Sunni read Protestant.

Or vice versa, if you like.

Subject: RE: BS: The difference between Sunnis and Shia
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Nov 06 - 07:12 AM

Remember how on the eve of the 2004 election there was an October surprise video with Bin Laden commenting on the US elections, which was credited with helping Bush get quite a few extra votes. (No, of course he didn't actually say "vote for Bush", he attacked him - that's what's called a "paradoxical injunction".)

Subject: RE: BS: The difference between Sunnis and Shia
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Nov 06 - 07:13 AM

Oops - wrong thread.

Subject: RE: BS: The difference between Sunnis and Shia
From: GUEST,Seyyed
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 01:23 PM

Shi'ah is a word that has been used in The Holy Qur'an twice. Once inferring that Abraham was a SHI'AH (follower)of Noah. The other verse exclaims that Moses had a SHI'A for a companion.

From authorative sunni sources it can also be guaged that Mohammed pbuh relayed to his people that ' Ali and his Shi'ah will be the successfull ones upon the day of Judgement'. A well known Sunni Sheikh by the name of Nainawy delivered this info in a lecture which I attended in Cambridgeshire. 'Therefore' he exclaimed to the Sunni audience ' We are ALL shi'ah because we too love Ali and hope to successfull upon the Judgement day.'

Well you should have seen some of the faces of those Sunnis drop!

So, those are the similarities, which, if you delve into you can find in the authorative sources.

The differences are most certainly historical and are primarily related to 'The Succession' of The Prophet Mohammed after his passing away. The closest male relative in line was his son in law, cousin brother and father to two of his grandchildren through his only daughter Fatima Zahra. Imam Ali was his name.

Abu Bakr, who was one of his 9 father in laws for some reason felt himself to be the most privaledged and allowed himself to succeed under a handful of tribal votes. Over a period of over 25 years the Caliphate was passed into the separate hands of tribal chiefs until finally it came back to it's true successor. Unfortunately by that time the damage had already been done and the first civil wars within Islam began to surmise. The first was actually led by Aisha, Abu Bakr's daughter, the youngest wife of the last Prophet!

Unsurprisingly Abu Bakr's immediate and illigitimate election after Mohammed's death inevitibly lead to the persecution of The rightful succeessors to the Prophet who were his closest blood relatives.

This persecution pinnaccled only fifty years after The Last Prophet's demise in the wholesale massacre that occured of his existing descendants upon the battlefield of Karbala, by the river Euphrates in Iraq. His beloved Grandson, Hussain son of Ali, was decapitated and his head was put on a spear to be held up for ridicule.

It is not surprising that Muslims today are still mercilessly killing each other, when it mattered not a jot to them 1400 years ago, to do the same thing to the very semblance that was Mohammed's own flesh and blood.

Seyyed Naqvi

Subject: RE: BS: The difference between Sunnis and Shia
From: GUEST,saulgoldie
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 01:47 PM

It is all so clear. The rift between the two sects and all the fighting between them is the fault of THE JEWS! It always is, dontcha know!

Subject: RE: BS: The difference between Sunnis and Shia
From: Peace
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 01:53 PM

You needn't have posted that, Saul. One of the usuals would have been along to do that shortly.

Subject: RE: BS: The difference between Sunnis and Shia
From: dianavan
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 02:08 PM

Did I miss something? How, in any way, is the above passage blaming anything on the Jews?

"The differences are most certainly historical and are primarily related to 'The Succession' of The Prophet Mohammed after his passing away. The closest male relative in line was his son in law, cousin brother and father to two of his grandchildren through his only daughter Fatima Zahra. Imam Ali was his name."

Subject: RE: BS: The difference between Sunnis and Shia
From: Amos
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 07:09 PM

The three major degrees of conservatism in the Muslim world are the Shia (the most liberal) the Sunnis (more insistant on orthodoxy) and the Wahabi of Saudi Arabia (right-wing).

The state of Iraq under Saddam was primarily secular, and the deepseated religous argy-bargy between Shia and Sunni was kept suppressed.

The Ba'ath party, Saddam's, was predominantly secular Sunni. The strongest anti-Saddam sentiment in Iraq was that of the Shi'a, who were a suppresse dminority.

Both Shi'a and Sunni have perpetrated major offenses against the West. The 9-11 suicides were Sunni, as were the Bali, London Tube and Madrid bombers. The attack on the Marine barracks in Beirut and the Jewish Center in Buenos Aires in 1994 were perpetrated by Shia.


A

Subject: RE: BS: The difference between Sunnis and Shia
From: bubblyrat
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 07:13 PM

Subject: RE: BS: The difference between Sunnis and Shia
From: mrdux
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 07:44 PM

"The Ba'ath party, Saddam's, was predominantly secular Sunni. The strongest anti-Saddam sentiment in Iraq was that of the Shi'a, who were a suppresse dminority."

The Shi'ite/Sunni population of Iraq is less than clear. Most sources suggest that the Shi'a were actually a repressed majority. Estimates of the Shi'ite population of Iraq are in the range of 60-65%, according to the Encyclopedia Britannica, the CIA World Book and Mother Jones (how's that for a combination of authorities?). On the other hand, some Sunnis dispute this, and claim that up to 60% of Iraq is Sunni.

Subject: RE: BS: The difference between Sunnis and Shia
From: Amos
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 07:49 PM

That may well be so, mrdux. Sorry for asserting inaccurately.


A

Subject: RE: BS: The difference between Sunnis and Shia
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 12:37 PM

Yes, the Shia are the majority in Iraq. Saddam (Sunni) oppressed the Shia and the Kurds.

"Both Shi'a and Sunni have perpetrated major offenses against the West. The 9-11 suicides were Sunni, as were the Bali, London Tube and Madrid bombers. The attack on the Marine barracks in Beirut and the Jewish Center in Buenos Aires in 1994 were perpetrated by Shia.
e majority."

Yes, these acts were performed by radical militants!

What countries did they come from?