Folk Club Manners

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 06:15 AM

Good plan, theleveller. If you would have waited for Jim in the first place he could have replied to your 'intelligent debate' himself and none of this would have happened. While we are waiting though can you point us to any 'feigned indignation'. Or how about 'spurious accusations', apart from yours of course.

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: theleveller
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 05:56 AM

"he is in great danger of making himself look a bit of a tit."

"That's a really silly post."

"I don't think it's silly, I think it's dishonest and provocative."

"Simply made some claims that were untrue against someone who is not around to defend"

Reminds me of a phrase from my rugby-playing days: "Sod the ball, let's get on with the game".

Think I'll wait until Jim returns then, as in previous threads, we might get some intelligent debate on the issues instead of feigned indignation from people making spurious accusations about my motives and actions.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 05:23 AM

I don't spend my days reading through hundreds of posts

Jim's mention that he was going away was 8 posts before yours.

criticise people for having the temerity to disagree with them

You did not disagree with anyone in the post we are refering to. Simply made some claims that were untrue against someone who is not around to defend themselves.

I think it's very bad form (or bad manners) to try to dominate a thread

Fair enough. I personaly believe that if you feel strongly enough about a point you should press it but if you disagree then you are as entitled to your opinion as I am to mine.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 05:06 AM

don't belittle it; explain why you think it's silly

I don't think it's silly, I think it's dishonest and provocative. You trailed the 'professional standards' hook earlier on -

Jim, I assume the actors will be getting paid for their efforts. Maybe that's where the difference lies.

- but nobody bit. If Jim had agreed with you then you would have had a case for saying that he'd said professional performances were more reliable, which might just about make it possible to extrapolate to the idea that amateur performances should be shut down. Just about.

If he'd agreed with you. He didn't. In fact, he specifically denied that he was calling for professionalism:

An appeal for basic standards has been met with responses like 'elitism', 'prima donna', 'exclusion', 'auditioning' 'glass ceilings', demanding 'concert standards' and only selecting the 'few who are good enough to sing' - none of which have been suggested by those of us who prefer our songs well enough rehearsed to be enjoyed.

I'm not saying you haven't got disagreements with Jim - I'm sure you have. I look forward to finding out what they are.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: theleveller
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 04:02 AM

"That's a really silly post."

No it isn't; just because you can't understand or don't agree with an opinion, don't belittle it; explain why you think it's silly. It's harking back to the 'folk police' arguments we've had in the past, often from people who have been part of the Critics Group thing that I found then(and still find) goes against what I believe folk music to be about. I've made my opinions on that very clear in previous threads.

I apologise if I missed previous comments - I don't spend my days reading through hundreds of posts, I simply express my opinions on comments as I see them. I think it's very bad form (or bad manners) to try to dominate a thread like David el Gnomo and criticise people for having the temerity to disagree with them. What was I saying about the folk police.......?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nick
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 08:31 PM

>>Taking Jim Carroll's argument, we should ban all amateur productions such as school plays and concerts, amateur dramatic societies, village pantos, carol singers etc. because they may not come up to his exacting standards. What a sad world that would be!

I'm with Silas. That's a really silly post.

There has been no hint of banning anywhere. Re-read the bits somewhere up the thread about amateur dramatics.

Jim has never defined his benchmark of acceptability - perhaps he could point one day to two borderline performances on youtube or somewhere and at which point we might go - goodness me Jim you're right - or goodness me Jim you set the level too high.

I don't think he is setting it as high as you think.

A friend of mine leant me a tape of the Critics Group singing and it's good competent stuff. Ewan MacColl I think is an excellent singer when he doesn't sing boring anti Margaret Thatcher songs (they were probably of their time as Antiquities but sure are pretty naff as a listening experience now). But it wasn't fantastically wonderful - there is a young man who comes and sings to us sometimes when he's in the area who sings as well as any of the singers on that tape to my ears singing many of the same songs.

I'm not sure if my view has shifted or not over the course of this thread. I'm more aware of some things and probably more of a tart than I was. People should listen and follow the singer or player not do their own version. Spot on. Second week running people wanted to sing their version of a song rather than fit in with the singer. Last week I had fun doing a rewind rap version of "If wishes were fishes" to cater for the early ones and the late ones who were happily singing away in a different time and this week I couldn't be bothered to keep singing a song which noone wanted to listen to (they were happy singing their own version)

People should have better manners. And should listen to each other.

And in my defence I only moved my friend Mike up a tone because he was singing the song too low and he didn't mind and everyone thought the key change was pretty seamless and next time he ought really to do it in Bb rather than G which he has written down on his sheet (if he had one). :) Sometimes we do it to help rather than for our egos

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 05:56 PM

I could not agree more Howard and Aeola. Thanks for that.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Aeola
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 04:02 PM

Well said romanyman,
I quite agree, there does seem to be a great emphasis on who said what ( or even who said what I think they said). So long as you find a folk club where you can enjoy the atmosphere etc and listen to up & coming singers.Let's not get too serious, after all there are many types of music and song, there's room for all.A paid performer should be able to entertain,but there are many levels of expertise and lots of room for improvement at most levels.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 03:19 PM

It seems to me that the key to this is being sensitive to the context and to what is appropriate behaviour for that particular event and occasion. There is a huge range of types of events and environments in which our music is performed. What is OK in a singaround or session may not be appropriate in a concert. At a concert in a festival tent one might expect people to move around, whereas in a concert-hall it might be reasonable to expect them to be more attentive - or they might be dancing in the aisles. Also, some clubs and singarounds have their own culture of what is and is not acceptable.

Some events offer opportunities for novice singers to learn and develop their skills, or even for those who are clearly never going to improve. At other events, it may be appropriate to overlook them in favour of better performers.

It can be wonderful to be in a singaround or a session and hear fantastic things developing as people spark ideas off each other. But it is also wonderful to be spellbound by a great singer as they deliver a ballad solo.

In some circumstances it might be egotistical, as Richard suggests, to insist that everyone else shuts up while you sing. In other circumstances it will be egotistical to join in.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 03:07 PM

Don't know if the leveller is being deliberately obtuse here or if he really is just not reading the posts properly, either way, he is in great danger of making himself look a bit of a tit.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: romany man
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 01:09 PM

i have refrained from putting a comment on for so long now, and those that know me know i dont suffer in silence for long, sadly it has come to the point that perhaps an outside view is due, from what ive read, this thread is getting to become the usual "oh im a folkie of long standing and i am right" well sorry, folk music is for all people not just a certain clique of people, ive read about manners , the mentally ill going to you hallowed clubs, and the views there of, please people, get real, you aint special, folk music aint the be all and end all, how long before you cant come to our club unless you got a beard or arrun sweater, or can sit motionless and silently for hours whilst some demegod performs,
why is it that folkie think they are so special, sorry none of us are, in the great scheme of things, there are more important things going on than worrying about who says what, plays what, or how they play or sing, you are supposed to be enjoying your hobby not forcing a general missguided rule on others, if things were as special as you all think it is, then hey everyone would be enjoying folk music, but tastes differ, me personally i cant stand some of the dirge ridden singaround perfomances, however some people do like it , fine thats great, but ive been to concerts and major venues where people walk about , sing along, clap hands , dance, smile , oh and of course drink, but hey folk clubs seem to be the total opposite, with "come in sit down dont move dont smile dont do nothing", sorry thats not for me and many many others i know, now thats my personal view, if it is not to your taste , sorry, but as has been said before everyone has a view.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 12:59 PM

1. Yes

2. 12 Nov 08 - 03:45 AM

3. You don't

4. No

As I said, I just think it is poor form (or bad manners to keep on topic) to put words in someones mouth when they are not there to dispute it. But it is your prerogative to do so just as it is mine to state an opinion.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: theleveller
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 11:40 AM

"theleveller - I am sure Jim will answer himself. As he has already said that he will not be around for a few days and cannot defend himself I think it is very poor form to suggest he has said such things when he has already said otherwise."

Has he - can't see where? Sorry, I didn't realise that I was supposed to wait for his presence before being allowed to express my opinion. Is this thread now closed for the next few days, then?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 08:45 AM

Hiya Sleepy Rosie. I am not going to name the 'guilty parties' but in answer to you other questions, they are a mix of all you mention.

The 'newbies' are fine by me. Everyone has to start somewhere. Provided they have made an effort to learn the song, and that is not just memorising words and a tune btw. They will almost always improve.

Experienced regulars who have become complacent and lazy. Hmmm, tough one. There are one or two I have come across but rarer than the next ones. generaly it is a phase and, again, they will get back 'on track'.

The ones that I take exception to most are the ones who, week in and week out, return a less than satisfactory performance. The ones who should know better but insist on telling a long rambling tale of no interest to anyone but their mothers. Those who cannot, or will not, keep the same time signature, or key, through the song. Those who obviously have no idea what the song is about.

Your example of a drunken three chord wonder at a party or campfire is an excellent one indeed. Both you and I are quite happy to listen, even join in, in those circumstances, but at a night where people are paying to see a professional artist I would not let them within 50 feet of the stage - and I suspect that most of them would not want to. But some have the X-factor syndrome that you mention. I suspect that some of these people think they are good because no one has ever told them othewise.

Hope this helps:-)

theleveller - I am sure Jim will answer himself. As he has already said that he will not be around for a few days and cannot defend himself I think it is very poor form to suggest he has said such things when he has already said otherwise.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: theleveller
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 07:32 AM

Taking Jim Carroll's argument, we should ban all amateur productions such as school plays and concerts, amateur dramatic societies, village pantos, carol singers etc. because they may not come up to his exacting standards. What a sad world that would be!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 07:22 AM

I must ask, as a newbie myself, for those who have experience of these terrible performances, who are the guilty parties?

Are they generally newbs who in a flush of misapplied enthusiasm, are simply inexperienced and unfamiliar with reasonable standards? And perhaps X Factor stylee, have had doting tone deaf family and friends applaud their cattawalling...? I'm sure that those willing to confess to watching the show, will all have witnessed classic jaw-drop moments of that ilk.

Or are these people experienced regulars who've become complacent and lazy?

As a listener, I'd be happy to hear drunken strumming and clumsily garbled singing at a party or around a campfire. But if I were going out for the evening, I think I'd be a bit fed-up if the general ability of *enthusiasts* were no more competent than a couple of my three chord wonder mates, after a bottle or two of Merrydown!

As a wannabee singer/enthusiast, I'd in no way want to inflict a rubbish noise on someone elses eardrums. Though my neighbours, may disagree of course... ;-) It'd be way too embarassing to stand up in front of a bunch of experienced strangers and make a rotten noise. I find it amazing that there are peeps happy and willing to humiliate themselves that way!

If someone's not on form for whatever reason, they should presumably be able to hear it themselves and at least say "sorry folks, I'm a bit rubbish tonight... nerves, tiredness, a cold" etc.

So who are the guilty parties and why do they do it?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 06:10 AM

people who want to sing generally want to sing well

Bryan, that is your experience, not mine or Jims. Would that not be better changed to

"MOST people who want to sing generally want to sing well, but not all are capable of doing so"

As to

as responsible adults, they can be trusted to put in the necessary work.

Are all adults responsible? Can they all be trusted? I would like to think so but in my experience it is not always the case:-(

Rather than suggest that we are incapable of grasping the concept would it not be better just to acknowledge that our experience is not the same as yours?

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 05:38 AM

NOBODY is trying to "justify presenting bad singing to the public".
NOBODY is showing "an open contempt for [our music]".

Jim seems unable to grasp the concept that people who want to sing generally want to sing well and that, as responsible adults, they can be trusted to put in the necessary work.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: theleveller
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 03:53 AM

Jim, I assume the actors will be getting paid for their efforts. Maybe that's where the difference lies.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: John Routledge
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 03:52 AM

Grand summary Jim.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 03:45 AM

I'm afraid I've found much of this thread a combination of misunderstanding, misrepresentation and distortion, in order - apparently, to justify presenting bad singing to the public.
An appeal for basic standards has been met with responses like 'elitism', 'prima donna', 'exclusion', 'auditioning' 'glass ceilings', demanding 'concert standards' and only selecting the 'few who are good enough to sing' - none of which have been suggested by those of us who prefer our songs well enough rehearsed to be enjoyed.
A number of the attitudes on display here have shown, in my opinion, at best a basic misunderstanding of our music and at worst, an open contempt for it.
Richard's 'wild flowers' are, if I have waded through his treacle-field of academic verbiage correctly, a giant step for mankind - backward to the 19th century when our folk singers were regarded as unthinking peasants whose art was as unconsidered as bird-song - and if that were not enough, he would turn our clubs into venues for mixed-voice choirs.
I'm afraid I'm going to have to drop out of this, for a while at least. We're off to Dublin for a couple of days, where I hope we will be be entertained by two plays whose participants will have undergone sufficient periods of rehearsal for us sit back and appreciate the works of two great playwrights. Hopefully the actors will not have to read their lines from a script or stumble through their interpretations, or fail to articulate or project and will send us home entertained and emotionally and aesthetically satisfied.
Would that folk song be granted the same respect.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Aeola
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 06:04 PM

It does not say much for the beer if it is being thrown around!! Generally the people I have come across say whether they expect an audience to join in, although, sometimes the singing is that good that to join in, even when invited, would be a travesty.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 03:47 PM

Since when did ten years mean something rotten? Dee-kayd?

Love you forever, Sleepy Rosie. That one has been annoying me for dec-ades.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 03:37 PM

Don't be daft, no grovelling, I'm not offended jimslass!!

It's always a little hard to tell someones 'tone of voice' on t'internet, I wasn't griping at you. My grammar and spelling has always been crumby though, and I do attribute that to the fact that my early schooling was a sad shambles! Though I 'spose if I really cared, I could get some books off the shelf...!

I agree with you believe it or not. And in fact one of my own pet hates is the pronunciation of words (especially on the Beeb) becoming increasingly Americanised, for no other reason than we're all watching Desperate Housewives now. Since when did ten years mean something rotten? Dee-kayd?

I'll duck out of this aside now, and allow the thread to return to topic.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: jimslass
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 03:09 PM

Dear Sleepy Rosie, forgive the Arrgghhhh! on your first posting, it was actually, Tom, said with a bit of tongue in cheek, but certainly not meant to upset you Rosie. I DID say, mind you that it wasn't a go at bad spellers (I can't count) nor poor grammarians, this 'myself' business is just a sloppy usage that has crept in VERY recently, and I'm very very sorry to presume, on Mudcat, to air a pet peeve - realise it goes against the grain here (ahem!)

Will promise to be all sweetness and light in future....That's if you'll have me back.

Have I grovelled enough?

But seriously, sorry, Rosie.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 03:00 PM

Pip Radish

Extreme pedantry and sound common sense

Aw, come on! I'm not a patch on Richard Bridge.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: BB
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 02:48 PM

Guest aw - Exactly!

Barbara

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 02:00 PM

And if you keep it up I might even get your name right. Sorry, Bryan.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 01:54 PM

"Did you ever get the chance to discuss this with Bob Copper?"
Yes - as a matter of fact - I did say notable exceptions.

Obviously(?) that wasn't entirely a serious question, so thanks for giving it a serious answer!

I think the sound of the Copper family singing Thousands or More is one of the most beautiful things I've ever heard. I like singing ballads, but I also like being in the middle of a performance of Thousands or More, Fathom the Bowl, Glorious Ale, Pleasant and Delightful, Jones's Ale and several other songs with big choruses. I do agree with aw - "if one person chooses not to join in a chorus that won't spoil the chorus song half as much as one person insisting in joining in with the ballad". But you seem to be ruling the chorus songs themselves out of the traditional canon, which seems a bit excessive to me.

Anonymous Guest Brian -

We are not "a club which persistently presents singers who can't sing". We simply don't have the resources. We do not have an adequate supply of singers who can't sing to do so.

Extreme pedantry and sound common sense, united in one comment. Sir, I salute you.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 12:46 PM

Apologies Jim - I was just skimming and it wasn't so much what was said as what gave me the idea:-) Fact still remains that I am not a good listener when it comes to poor performances. I am quite tollereant for the first few times but then, if I find I cannot help in anyway, I give up. Maybe too easily!

WLD - I think you need to get bitter, else you may find yourself described as to mild. Or maybe if you absorbe to much you would get stout. Or la(r)ger...

:D(eG)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 12:28 PM

Well theres no use getting bitter.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Alan Day
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 12:18 PM

Well WLD I suppose even being drenched by a glass of beer is a feed back of some description.At least when you leave you know how good you've been.
Al

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 10:44 AM

Yep, my working class seventies schooling was utterly dire jimslass, especially in maths and grammar. In fact all I recall were a bunch of bored spiteful premenstrual mums (aka: teachers) and I've never gone back to the nuts and bolts in order to rectify it.

Be thankfull that you were (presumably) in a generation or area, in which you could gain a decent education, before 'progressive' thinkers took a hatchet to our schooling and started worrying more about 'targets' than children receiving a good basic education! I wish I'd have recieved the education of my grandfather, or even my mother for that matter.

I'm saying all of this while wearing a smile by the way, no offence taken, though if someone said that to my face, I suspect I might just blow a raspberry at 'em...

Now as you appear to be the man in the know of such things, please advise, how exactly should I spell 'tthhhhrrruppp' ;-)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Neovo
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 10:32 AM

On joining in - to some extent it depends whether the joining in enhances or destroys the original performance. I was once asked to sing quite a sensitive song by the organiser of a singaround and ANOther person joined in with her (different but otherwise acceptable) tune and put me off completely.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 09:34 AM

Just didn't want to get deleted as an anonymous GUEST by an enthusiastic mud elf.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 09:27 AM

"Did you ever get the chance to discuss this with Bob Copper?"
Yes - as a matter of fact - I did say notable exceptions.
Davis,
I think you'll find I said NOT a bad listener.
"Last GUEST was me."
I think we all guest that Bryan
More later
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 09:14 AM

BTW - I would class our singers nights as a bit of a 'workshop' as well, as I think I have mentioned. Everyone seems to get inolved and there is a lot of chat and avice going on. Everyone shoul get the chance to peform and everyone should be allowed to make mistakes. But to repeatedly do it and not take advice on board is bad manners. Bringing us back to the thread:-)

D

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 09:04 AM

I was reading through the tread again and Jim said something I had not noticed. Words to the effect of 'I am bad listener'. Excuse me if I got the quote wrong or incorrectly accredited the wrong person. Anyway...

So am I! I cope with it by trying to avoid the situation where I am listening to poor performance of songs. MOST have at least some redeeming featues - either the song is interesting in itself or the performer can, at least, give me something to stay for. May be very selfish, I know, but where the performer offers me nothing to stay for I would rather do something else. It may be bad mannered of me but I have, on occasions, been found unavoiably delayed at the bar;-)

Now, the point of my confession. There was one such occasion when I was unavoidaby delayed and I found myself in the company of 75% of the folk club audience. So I know it was not just me. this particular act had all but emptied the room. Now, fortunately, it was on a singers night where the auience do knpw the score and do know that people are allowed to 'practice in public'. I dread to think what the effect on a non aware audience would have been but I can imagine the image of folk music that they would have taken away.

Remember that people rarely give praise but often complain:-(

I have said before, and will say again, anyone who has not come across the 'serial song strangler' is a very lucky person indeed. I am not saying they should not have the right to sing like anyone else. But they must accept that other people have a right not to listen, should they chooe, and I have a right, as a club organiser, to restrct when they perform at my club.

Cheers

DeG
(Having a break from fixing shelves - something else I should avoid:-) )

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,aw
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 08:39 AM

But Richard, have you never experienced that spine chilling moment when listening to someone singing a ballad so beautifully/powerfully/poignantly that you hardly dare breathe yourself for spoiling the magic, and bringing everyone back from that 'other world' to our mundane one?

I love the glory of a rousing chorus, or the power of a roomful of musicians all playing in telepathic sympathy, but some songs (or tunes) just can't, or shouldn't be treated this way. I suspect almost everyone here can tell when joining in (with gusto or with careful harmony etc) is appropriate, and when they themselves would prefer to listen. I also suspect that as Mudcat is a very mixed community that some of us will gravitate towards joining in sessions, and some toward ballad workshops, or any of the myriad of venues in between and consequently feel that their take on this issue is best answered by the practice of their own favoured setting.

My only intention in contributing to the discussion was to observe that there are times (at least at the clubs I go to) where all but one or two individuals have the sensiitvity and the desire to enjoy a solo song for just that, and that maybe it could be considered bad manners if a tiny minority of the assembly were oblivious to those occasions and continued to hum/sing/play along. I have been to evenings where the contrasts between a tremendous chorus followed by the beauty of a ballad has left me in tears. But if one person chooses not to join in a chorus that won't spoil the chorus song half as much as one person insisting in joining in with the ballad.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 08:33 AM

Jim Carroll

There was never any question (certainly not as far as I'm concerned) that any singer who wished to was given one bite of the cherry; as you say, how else would we know whether they could sing or not. The argument is about whether people who wished to sing were consistently given spots before they had conquered the rudiments.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. In an early posting you say -

Is it being a Blue Meany to suggest that performers should be able to hold a tune and remember and make sense of the words BEFORE they take to the floor. (Your emphasis.)

Searching on "before they" brings up half a dozen similar examples so perhaps you will excuse my confusion.

Are you now saying just "one bite of the cherry" or would you give people more time? It only moves the question along one step. To find out if they've improved, we have to put them on again. In our experience, people do improve. Some more slowly than others but nobody carries on apparently blissfully unaware of how bad they are.

"By making our criterion the desire to sing, we are raising standards".
Not if you are consistently putting on (or urging others to put on) singers who can't master the basics you're not.

We are not "consistently putting on singers who can't master the basics". We are not "a club which persistently presents singers
who can't sing". We simply don't have the resources. We do not have an adequate supply of singers who can't sing to do so. In our experience, the vast majority of people who want to sing (or play) can.

nor do I hesitate, on the basis of what I've heard, to include your club among the better ones

Kind of you but you still seem to be blaming our policy for the poor standards you see elsewhere. Dare I suggest that, if we are among the better ones, it is precisely because of our "Yes you can" policy?

As I said before "ding-ding; I'm on the bus"

That's rather the point, Jim. On your own admission you got off the bus ten years ago but still seem to feel that you are qualified to pontificate about the current state of public transport.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Working Radish
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 07:52 AM

Our song tradition is, by its very nature a solo one (with obvious exceptions) - here we have it turned into community sing-song.

Did you ever get the chance to discuss this with Bob Copper?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 05:09 AM

Did I tell you about the time I was doing a sensitive accompaniment -playing pentatonic scales in the phyrgian mode on a bird warbler and someone threw their beer at me.....

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 04:21 AM

PS
Maybe we should have a screen with the words of all the songs projected on to it and the little ball dancing from word-to-word just like the childrens' Saurday matinee - ee; it takes you back lads and lasses.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Melissa
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 04:19 AM

Jim C:
"I'm afraid that Melissa's chilling suggestion that people be permitted to join in "whether they know the song or not" sums up Richard's nightmare world perfectly for me."

Chilling?
Downright diabolical, probably...but I have no damn idea what you're talking about.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 04:17 AM

farouche - by analogy think of "wild flower"

artless: meanings 2b and 3

I think that singers and players should be wary of telling others to not to join in. It fills me at least with the desire to say "EEwww, get you!" unless there is a good reason.

I think, John, that the default position lies somewhere else. If the event is a paid for seated concert then I can see (even if I am hesitant about accepting) the "Don't join in" argument. It gets steadily more self important as one moves from that environment, unless there is a good and apparent reason.

But of course, manners should dictate "listen" as well.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 04:15 AM

Farouche appears in my dictionaries as 'sullen' - 'wild', and is from the Latin for out-of-doors. I have no idea how this is intended to apply to the topic on hand; I assume it equates to Bob Davenport's 'Art with a big A and art with a small a' somewhere along the line (aka academic double-speak).
"You're not good enough" view. Second there is the "Don't join in unless I tell you" view which for me implies something of the first".
Not only have you put the onus on the performer to ask the audience not to join in, but you have implied that should he/she do so they are suggesting that the audience is somehow inferior - utter balls!!!.
The suggestion as far as I'm concerned is reactionary twaddle which reduces our most beautiful, sensitive, and often very complex songs and ballads to the level of 'Knees Up Mother Brown'.
Our song tradition is, by its very nature a solo one (with obvious exceptions) - here we have it turned into community sing-song.
The Irish, who are, by-and-large are a fairly tolerant race, have a phrase which they use on the very occasional event of an ego-tripper insisting on joining in on everybody's song (is this just a UK thing?) - "One singer, one song" - says it all.
Should Richard wish an audience to join in on everything he does, he is perfectly entitled to ask them to do so, but please don't assume that this is what the rest of us want, be we performer or listener.
I'm afraid that Melissa's chilling suggestion that people be permitted to join in "whether they know the song or not" sums up Richard's nightmare world perfectly for me.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: John Routledge
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 08:14 PM

Richard - If the gathering is described as a sing-a-long then your "joining in" argument has some merit Otherwise......

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Melissa
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 07:55 PM

wow..by implication, I have been clumped with Oxford grads?!

This is truly my lucky day!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nick
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 07:48 PM

I agree with a lot of what you say, Richard , but I'd also guess that you'd also have a pretty good idea of when NOT to play as well. And you mention LISTENING in your post which never seems to get as many mentions as it perhaps should do.

I love playing with people and though I like folk music it's only one of a number of forms of music I enjoy. The interaction of people playing together and sparking ideas off each other - or harmonising - or improvising - have always been at the root of the music that I really adore. As an example, I went and watched John Etheridge and Christian Garrick play last night and the sheer joy and electricity between the players (against wonderful rhythm playing) was just breathtaking and brings a tear of pure pleasure to my eye at the best bits. It's not folk but I make very little distinction between good music of whatever form (don't get me started on Mahler's 10th or the joys of William Byrd)

But there's little worse than people doing it really badly. If you want to guarantee a really grim experience 8 times out of 10 just say the words 'how about we play a 12-bar blues together'... and cringe as people run up and down endlessly boring pentatonic scales.

I often feel that I probably shouldn't really be contributing to a folk forum as so much of what I like seems so at odds with what people try and uphold. I still enjoy a lot of traditional music, play an increasing amount of Irish and Scottish session music but would hate there to be no opportunity to join with people as those together musical moments are some of the highlights for me.

And if I play inappropriately in a singaround or session just say - hopefully I will have noticed myself but if I haven't I take little offence.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 07:46 PM

Oh, sorry, and you still have not responded to my point about someone who is not confident enough to tell people not to join in.

D.