good ideas about sharp knives

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: mack/misophist
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 11:32 PM

Sorry, that url is francineetchings.com

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: mack/misophist
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 11:31 PM

Above, there was some discussion of D Boye's 'art' knives. It seems he sold that part of his business (and trained his successor) when he retired. I just learned that is's still going strong and can be found here.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 10:26 PM

Which is why I forgot the mention it before -- to me, it's like the air: it just is.

I've heard that an Inuit woman skinned and butchered a seal with an ulu in less than four minutes. Now that's knowing how to use your tools!

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Dave Swan
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 09:59 PM

Rapaire,

Right you are about the ulu. P.J. brought me one from her last trip, which was spent collecting songs on Baffin Island. A damn handy knife it is. According to the missus, these are carried in parka hoods and in pockets, using no sheath, and are wielded by children. Obviously used by people in tune with their tools. It's a great knife which takes only a a little trial and error to learn to sharpen. I've learned that it wants to be sharpened at a pretty flat angle. I use it frequently because it does so many things with so little effort.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 08:43 AM

In that Japanese show "Iron Chef" - one challenger was knwon for the extra length of his chef knif - it was nearly as long as a sword - and he was definitely well skilled with it...

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 04:50 PM

Rapair -

The ulu is pretty much the same thing as the ones I've got, except for the solid handle. The knockoff at Wally world has a flattened "ring" handle so you can stick your fingers through. One of the larger ones might be more useful for some of the other tasks the ulu site mentions. I generally prefer one of my more conventional knives, but that's more from having good ones I've learned to use for those things.

"She" has a taste for those canned rubber bands they call "mushroom pieces" at the supermarket. I find it just the thing for making the pieces small enough to extract what little flavor they have into the broth and to avoid having to chew on them. Possibly a hammer would work as well for that particular purpose, but...

John

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 01:48 PM

I haven't mentioned my ulu, probably because I simply use it. I assume that you mean that when you talk about a rocking knive.

The same rules regarding sharpness and quality apply. Mine happens to be a traditional one, made from a old circular saw blade (you can even more trad ones made from stone, etc. but I'd only use such a thing for decoration). Keep it in the holder it comes with, treat it as any good knife.

Frankly, I wouldn't like to be without it. Learn to use it well and you'll like it very much.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 01:39 PM

Actually, I have a couple of those "rocker knives." I would think that £25 is a bit much. I got one when it was on sale for $3.49 (US) at Walmart, just out of curiosity. I liked it enough to go back and pay the "regular" $9.95 for one for the camper, although I wouldn't have been $10 worth of curious if the first one hadn't been on sale.

It works nicely for mincing things very finely, and doesn't seem to kick stuff around quite as much as using a Chef knife (or the Chinese variety we mentioned above) so you can mince small amounts of stuff on a smaller board. It doesn't work well if your "starting stuff" makes a pile much over about a half inch deep, but I'd think it would work nicely for herbs, especially the "leafy stuff."

The ones like I got come with a little "storage stand" that's adequate ONLY if you can put it somewhere "out of the traffic." I'd recommend against trying to keep one in a drawer with other stuff - as they'll likely eat each other up. I made a "full blade" block that works as a stand when you take the blade out, for the camper. In the block, I feel safe enough putting it in a drawer. Loose, it would be hazardous, since the odd shape makes it "stick up" where you don't expect it.

One of those special purpose gadget things, for special purposes.

John

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 12:55 PM

My neice asked to get her for last Christmas, one of those knives that rock around and you cut up herbs with. That seemed expensive - about £25 for what it was. is there any other use for them?

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 11:20 AM

The "fork" subject is one open a bit to "deviant preferences." Even with the best of "carving forks," without a good work surface you're often likely to use the fork to propel your turkey into the lap of the guest of honor. The typical "platter" is not an ideal surface. If you're likely to be carving for guests at the table, I'd recommend that the carving fork be accompanied by a "table board," preferably of generous size, with a large drip channel all around, and I wouldn't object to a couple of little "anti-skid spikes" in the center area. The typical "ritual carving" is a "made for embarrassment" situation. Too small a space, usually standing in a awkward position, too much nearby clutter, - but with practice it can be a noble thing.

Since I rarely "carve" at the table, I usually just "grab hold" as appropriate on the big meat board. For the squeamish, or with guests who insist on watching, you can don a surgical glove (or a baggie). If you cut raw meat there, you should of course carefully clean and sanitize the board, and/or lay a clean smaller board on top before carving. Nearly all meat should be "rested" after it comes out of the oven (or pot) enough that it shouldn't be too uncomfortable to "lay hands on it." It will slice much more cleanly once the temperature has settled.

I would have included a good "gravy fork" as a needed accessory, but here they are impossible to find except in antique stores. Often called a "granny fork" this is the small fork about the same size as a dinner fork, but with thin, flexible tines, and ideally a wooden handle. Useful for turning bacon in the skillet, and larger meats if you're careful. If you can find one sufficiently flexible, they're what you stir the "sop" with in the skillet; but you need to be able to flatted the tines against the bottom of the skillet to scrape the crumbs loose. Serious research indicates that the last such (in name only) item imported into the US was before 1981, and that was an abominable piece of sh*t designed by a Chinaman who had never seen anyone eat with a fork, much less cook with one. Calling a "granny fork" doesn't make it useful. The last couple prior to that were only "marginally usable," and as best I can determine there have been only four styles made or imported here in the past 40 or 50 years, ONE of which was not too bad. I use a couple I picked up at the antique mall. They run $10 or more in my area if only "badly worn," and more if they're in fairly good shape.

Some people like to keep a pair of "kitchen shears" handy. If you deal with a lot of shellfish they can probably be useful. I keep a clean pair of ordinary scissors for opening stubborn packages, but find the use of shears on most meat unnecessary. You can generally do a better job of separating things with your good knife, if you look for the right place to cut, than by attacking with shears.

And the etiquette books say you must eat your meat with a fork if it has bones that are cut. You can use your fingers (chicken, etc.) if the meat has all "uncut bones." Using shears or a cleaver on "finger food" might embarrass the guests by breaking something. (But I do wonder how you apply that rule to fish.) :-)

Once the basics are at hand, there are any number of "special" tools. Maybe we'll get some offerings there as well.

John

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 09:39 AM

Good selection, JiK. We also have a very good carving set with an excellent blade and meat fork we use for carving at the table (on those increasingly rare occassions when we do that).

I'd also add a servicable meat fork. It's not a knife, but it can certainly make using a knife safer and easier. Tongs are also an excellent idea from many angles -- I have several pairs.

We eat a bit of salmon, and a fillet knife is just the ticket for taking off skin.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 12:23 AM

We've had mostly discussion of "brands" here, but little comment about the particular styles people like. I do have one of those "Japanese" (probably about like the "Chinese" that petr mentioned) cooking knives, and use it quite a lot. I got mine from a little "generic oriental" shop in Seattle quite a few years ago. Mine is marked "Pilot - Sakei Japan" and my recollection is that I paid about $20 (US) for it, maybe 15 years ago. I've tried a couple of cheaper similar ones, but wasn't much pleased with them.

It's pretty much standard to have one good "butcher knife" about 8 or 10 inches long. This one has a slightly curved cutting edge, about 1.5 inches deep at the "fat" end, and should have a thick enough backbone to "spread" the meat for thick cuts. If there's one knife in your "kit" that it's worth spending a little extra on, this would probably be "the one." My current one is a KC Cutlery, although I have a Trident/Wusthoff in backup. A good one will probably run around $30 - $40 (US) in my local shops, although you can go close to $200 for some of the "exotic" ones. My recollection is that the Trident had a "list price" of about $135, but of course you don't pay list for them.

Less used, perhaps, but handy is a "slicer." Some people call it the "ham knife," and it gets used mostly for slicing thin slabs off the Christmas ham or turkey. Straight edge, usually 8 to 10 inches long, and about 3/4 inch deep blade. Because it's often used in front of the guests, many people opt for a "pretty" one, and as long as it holds a decent edge I wouldn't fuss too much about having a particularly expensive one. The "Waverly Edge" (scalloped) is common here, and is probably ok, given the limited use by most people.

Every cook needs at least one "French Chef." I personally prefer a shorter one, about 8 inch, but 10 inch and larger are popular. Most of the "class" ones are a fairly heavy blade. Some people prefer something a little lighter. While the bigger ones are "impressive," your choice should depend on how large a workspace you have. For most home kitchens the larger ones are a little too much. This is one you have to try it out to find what suits you. I use mostly my KC here too. It - or the "Chinese" - are what you use for mincing and dicing.

Many "sets" include a Cleaver, but for home use I find they mostly just sit in the block. It's usually better to "find the joint" and cut it with a knife than to "hack through" - at least for the stuff you're likely to deal with unless you're starting with "live meat on the hoof."

At least one decent "Boning Knife" is a good addition. This one should have a fairly "slim" blade, but not too flexible. It's the one for getting the last bit of meat off the turkey carcass, and for general purpose with smaller jobs that don't quite need the butcher knife. About a 7 inch long blade is pretty typical.

The only "serrated blade" I use, only loosely called a knife, is the "Bread Slicer." With the hard crusts "She" bakes, you do need a little "tooth" to get through the crust without crushing the loaf. I use a $9 one that lives in the bread box (so the real knives won't be offended).

Smaller utility knives are generally cheap enough that you can try out a few and settle on what suits you. Paring knives, etc come in remarkable variety, but a few reasonably good 3 inch paring knives, a "hook blade" parer or two if you like them, and perhaps a couple of slightly larger "utility" kind should equip most people for doing what needs to be done in the kitchen.

In the "utility" group, some may want a "Filet knife," but for most that one belongs with the fishing tackle. It looks similar to the boning knife, but has a very flexible blade, for "following the skin" when you filet your fish. (Often with an assymetrical edge, too.) Not needed by most people in the kitchen, but suit yourself.

I use a couple of "utility knives" that are converted from "steak knives" of the sort you see in some "class" steakhouses. The came with serrated blades, large handles, 6 inch or so long x about 1.3 deep blades, and with the "teeth" ground off they make a very nice utility knife - for about $3 (US) each. With the teeth left on, I'd consider them a "throw-away." Very handy, after conversion, for camp cooking, since they are about right to replace the paring knife and a larger utility size almost up to butcher knife scale.

Of course, everyone should have - and learn to use - a good "Steel."

And no "gentleman" is properly dressed without a serviceable pocket knife.

John

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: mack/misophist
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 12:18 AM

Blowzabella,

Most ancient scabbards were of wood. Magnolia works well. Take 2 thin planks, cut matching areas for the blade, glue them together, then shape the outside. Not as easy as it sounds but not all that hard. Japanese blades have a special fitting that makes an almost water tight seal when the blade is sheathed. Personally, I think your wedding present will survive just fine.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 08:08 PM

ever since I took a chinese cooking course years ago, I prefer my Chinese cooking knife. Kind of like a cleaver
(Its well balanced as you can crush garlic with it (using the flat side), chop it and then slide it under to pick it up) Its great for chopping vegetables for a stirfry (which are actually steamed anyway
not fried, if done right)

theres a different cutting action for meat and chopping vegetables,
it really is the only knife I use for most of my cooking.
(it wouldnt be great for cutting bread though)

dont know what brand it is, bought it in Chinatown. It wasnt very expensive.
and havent had to sharpen it for years, but its about time.

I do believe though, that you are most likely to cut yourself with dull knife.

Yeah I dont buy that stuff about wooden boards either. I use both
but prefer wood.
(maybe, but then look at what the medical community in North America believed about breast feeding in the 50s and 60s)


petr

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Blowzabella
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 07:43 PM

I have a pattern-welded knife that a blacksmith friend made me as a wedding present (I know, I know, I have strange friends...) - anyway, my question is - I keep it oiled and in a sheath lined with sheepskin - will it be ok? It is made of mild steel I think - or possibly iron with a mild steel edge to it. (Reconstruction of an Anglo-Saxon artefct)
(Another wedding present was a reproduction of an Anglo Saxon cremation urn)
(Do you think there is a thread in this - what odd wedding presents did you get?)

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: LilyFestre
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 06:01 PM

Personally, I like Rada knives. They are inexpensive, easily sharpened, all metal so no worry of stuff growing in the wood. I also like (and used to sell) Cutco knives. The tang goes all the way to the bottom of the handle of the knife, good edge, incredibly long lasting....a bit more on the expensive side though.

Michelle

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 05:53 PM

Many people seem to labour under the misapprehension that "Sabatier" is a brand of knife, probably because most Sabatier knives have "Sabatier" stamped on the blade.

It isn't and never was.

Sabatier is a style of knife developed by the French chef Sabatier, and has always been manufactured by many different makers.

Just like many different manufacturers other than CF Martin make "Dreadnought" guitars.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 04:45 PM

mack/misophist:
I boght David Boye's book when it first came out way back and that's why I remember his name. But I never got any of his pretty knives, and now I can't. Too bad.

I suspect the etching is done in stages: the deepest background first, second deepest and the deepest (again) next, and so on.

And I'm ashamed to admit I all too often leave knives in the sheath. It's really gross if there's brass in contact wikth the leather.

clint

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Hollowfox
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 04:36 PM

Thanks, Darlin'. I'll shift my blades out when I get home from work tonight.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 04:11 PM

I store the knives outside the sheaths because the chemicals used to process leather can cause the blades to discolor, the edges to dull (from oxidation, more commonly called 'rust'), and even cause pitting.

This is with a couple of exceptions. If I kept my Buck General outside the sheath the poor thing would think it had been exiled or worse. (No, I don't normally buy huge knives. I bought this one back in 1968 to kill people. Really. Our National Guard unit had been activated and was going off to Vietnam and my brother Tony and I decided we really needed a good knife "just in case". I paid US $35.00 for it back then....)

The second one I keep in a sheath is my "Air Force Survival Knife," a gift from some veterans I'd worked with. It has a Parkerized blade, so I don't feel bad about it.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: SINSULL
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 03:57 PM

Knives - the bane of my existence when Dad's insomnia led to night time infomercials. I got Ginzus and knives that cut cans and knives with pretty handles and knives in blocks...you get the idea. Not one of them cuts worth a damn.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Hollowfox
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 03:45 PM

Repaire, I think I'm in love with your brother. He can sharpen blades that well, and shut up a lippy kid during a school visit?!? classy! By the way, why do you store your blades outside of their sheaths? Mary (the Bloodthirsty, er, knife-loving Librarian)

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 12:48 PM

Right thanks everybody! Yorkshire Yankee has sorted me out a nice set of knives and they do work.. Thanks to everybody.

I was a supply teacher once, that story about the Davy Crocket chap was very nice .... god I would have love to wandered round threatening the little buggers with a machete or a ray gun.

Thanks to you all for sorting out this problem.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: mack/misophist
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 11:50 AM

It looks as if the Boye knives have changed dramatically since I was collecting them. He used to specialize in fine cutlery and belt knives ornamented with very good low relief etching. Too bad. For example, I have a cleaver decorated with a 3 x 5 inch etching of a mountain lion standing on a tree limb. Beautiful work. He wouldn't tell me how he got etching to produce an effect almost like engraving.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 10:29 AM

My brother made me a patch knife (a small blade used to cut the patching when you load a ball into a muzzleloading rifle) from an industrial hacksaw blade. He mounted it into a handle of flamegrained curly cherry. It's a lovely knife. It holds a great edge. No, you can't have it.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: mack/misophist
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 10:07 AM

Dear Clint Keller,

I stand corrected. My spelling was taken from the blades of the knives I still have - very small and easy to mis-read. The technical information is what I remember Mr Boye saying when he sold me the knife, many years ago. It was one of the first made. Thanks for the link. I thought that when the Sacramento area shop closed they went out of business. It's good to see he's still around.

The ones I kept are so old, they were made from broken saw mill blades.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 04:17 PM

Oh, I didn't say that I thought 10 to 12 degrees was a good idea, just that that's what I was brought up to do. In actual practice, I probably put on an edge more like 15 degrees.

A true story about my brother and a knife he sharpened.

Being unemployed, Ted often substitute teachs. And one of the regular teachers asked him to come in dressed as one of the settlers of the area would have dressed around 1820.

Arrangement were made that he could carry his flintlock, axe and knife into the classroom. So Ted, a drama major and an actor, went "on stage."

The kids were wowed. He demonstrated the rifle (without powder and ball, of course), explained the use of a corn boiler, discussed parched corn, and so on. Then one of the kids, a real smart-ass, said to Ted that since his rifle had no loads, obviously his knife was a fake too.

Now, Ted had made that rifle. And to imply that he was faking it was more than he could take.

He simply looked at the kid, pulled out the rifleman's knife (similar to this one), turned it edge up, and slowly lowered a piece of paper to the edge of the knife, paper edge to knife edge. It sliced the paper quite nicely. The punk then just sort of gulped and shut up.

A knife? You call that a knife? Now, this is a knife! -- Crocodile Dundee

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 04:15 PM

I think Mack/Misophist was talking about the knives made by David Boye. He calls the metal "Dendritic Cobalt."
_________
Boye Dendritic Cobalt

Advanced new metallurgy for the ocean environment, Boye Dendritic Cobalt (BDC) is not a steel, but a metallic alloy composed of cobalt, chrome, nickel, tungsten, silicon, molybdenum, iron, and carbon.

BDC cuts aggressively, and keeps cutting. It is impervious to saltwater corrosion and is non-magnetizable.

What is "Dendritic"?
Dendritic comes from the Greek word meaning "branching" or "tree-like." It describes the crystalline pattern of hard carbide structures throughout each knife blade, as shown in the microscopic photo to the right.

These carbide crystals create micro-serrations along the cutting edge and maintain its structural integrity. Each sharpening exposes a fresh set of hard carbide micro-teeth.
_____

Look Here

I must try one of these some day.

clint

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 03:52 PM

Iain here again

Mack/Misophist:

"I once had a dress belt knift (experimental method) ... in which carbide crystals were comehow formed within the body of a cast steel blade."

It was probably tool steel. All high strength steels have quite a lot of carbide in them, but its usually iron carbide or chromium carbide. The real hard carbides are found in tool steel and high-speed steel. Some of these alloys have so much carbide in them that they stretch the definition of what is a metal and what is a metal-ceramic composite.

Hrothgar:
Good advice. Also don't do what YY does and leave them in the washing up bowl. Even if there is no water in the bowl yet, it's a bad idea...

Rapaire:
10-12 degrees is super sharp but will have poor edge retention. Its more the kind of blade angle used for surgical instruments than kitchen knives. If 12 degrees is what you are used to cutting with, then thats what's right for you. BTW surgeons do not use the sharpest possible blades. Tests have been done with surgeons using blades that are as sharp as technically possible, but the surgeons found they cut so easily that they had no tactile feedback from the cutting resistance and so the blade was more difficult to control accurately. There is such a thing as too sharp, even for surgery...

John/jOhn:
Wet wood tends to be acidic, which is naturally bacteriostatic (trees after all are slow to rot and have evolved to resist bacteria over an awfully long time). The other thing that makes wood good for butcher blocks is that butchers usually not only disinfect the block at the end of the day, I have seen them also scrub it with a wire brush, so they remove the top layer of the wood, exposing fresh clean wood below. This just can't be done with plastic. This is one of the reasons that old butchers blocks are such a long way from flat and so much thinner than a brand new block. The problem with a wood handled knife is less the wooden handle and more the gap between the handle and the tang.

The other problem with plasic boards and sharp knives is that the knives cut into the plastic and the plastic mostly closes up once the blade is removed, so its difficult to clean inside the cut. Knife cuts in wood tend not to close up, so when you clean the board you are more likely to remove whatever is in the cut.

Bunnahabain/LTS:
Blocks and magnetic racks are both OK. I've used both, blocks work best when you are able to keep the block at the back of the work surface where it won't get knocked often and can't fall to the floor. Some mag racks are a bit weak for really big knives, so either leave the big ones in the block (or in a plastic sleeve/tube in the drawer) or set up two mag racks so that the big blades cross both magnets. Don't overfill a mag rack, that increases the risk of getting a whole shower of knives when you wanted only one!
Some of our knives live in a "knife drawer", a very low profile wooden drawer with recesses for various knives, this is built into the bottom of a fairly thick chopping board. Not only does it take up "no" space (we would have the chopping board anyway) but the thickness raises the cutting surface a bit closer to what our chiropractor advises, as opposed to what the furniture dwarves provide "as standard"...

Iain
YY's other half

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 01:09 PM

whats it Austin Powers said ....get back in the knife drawer....?

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 12:25 PM

Just want to point out that I seem to be getting the credit for my husband's treatise on knives/cutting edges. While I'm tempted to allow myself to gain a Mudcat reputation as an authority on such things ;^), I thought I'd better make clear I'm not actually the one with the expertise.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 12:24 PM

We store our knives in something like this. It's inexpensive, sits in a drawer, and is very easy to clean. The plastic doesn't dull the edges, either.

My hunting knives, re-enacting knives, pocket knives, etc. are carefully stored in a wooden box -- OUT of their sheathes!

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 11:16 AM

Have only had one accident with a knife block, had countless accidents with magnetic strips..... usually because the magnetic pull is too strong for the smaller bladed knives and pulling them off jerks the big ones off too..... nearly lost a toe trying to get a grapefruit knife off a magnitic rack, when the big carver decided to leap off too.

LTS

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 11:11 AM

John from Kansas posted while I was typing, but we seem to be saying the same thing!

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 11:09 AM

On a slight tangent, how to store knives.
I feel much happier with the wall mounted magnetic racks. They stay clean, take up no space on the counter, mean you can always see your knives, and I've never had anything come off them.
   Knive blocks tend to end up dirty, take up counter room, and are prone to knocking over, which sends knives flying.

Any of knowledgeable/opionionated people out there have an opinion?

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 11:03 AM

Interesting post from Robomatic,
It's useful to remember that abbatoirs, cuting rooms, fish counters etc are usually cold envioroments, whilst hotel and restaraunt kitchens are hot, bacteria grows better in warm enviorments.
Also at the end of each day, a butchers block will be scrubbed with bleach to kill all bacteria, butchers suppliers sell stuff [not sure of the trade name, but Dettox type stuff] for this pupose.
The reason for different coloured chopping boards is to prevent cross-contamination of raw and cooked food.
If you use only 1 chopping board, uou could use 1 side for raw meat, and the other side for cooked stuff, just get a marker pen, and right "Raw" one one side, or get a small dot of red and green paint on each side.
If you are chopping chicken etc, then going to carve it with the same knife after its cooked, it's an idea to give your knife a wipe with an anti bacterial wipe.

Someone mentioned them "self sharpening knifes", that have a device in the knife box, they are rubbish!
Get a good knife, and learn how to sharpen it properly.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 10:57 AM

I'm surprised to see the report of Chicago Cutlery knives without full tang. I haven't seen one like that in the local trade. Just goes to show ya' that you can't go by "brand name" alone. Most of the makers produce both good and bad, depending on your standards of goodness and evil.

Re the report on wood vs plastic cutting boards: Local "Health Department" regs in my area now prohibit wood in "commercial use." They also require a separate surface for each kind of "meat." If you want to stay in business, you don't get to choose. In the home kitchen the choice is less obvious.

Most oils, vegetable or mineral, are to some extent "bacteriostatic." They inhibit growth of bacteria, although they won't necessarily kill the little critters. The "food film" that adheres to many plastic surfaces is a nutrient for them, and is almost impossible to remove completely with ordinary "hand washing." For some of the common plastics, the "film" that adheres can't even be reliably penetrated by strong germicides/antiseptics.

If you can (and do) run your cutting board through the dishwasher, at "sanitizing temperatures" the bacteria will be killed in the wash, and the plastic board will stand the dishwasher. If your board is too big for "sanitizing," or is bolted to the kitchen floor, then the wooden surface is arguably better. Keep it clean, and don't let stuff sit on it long enough to "grow into" the wood. Frequently, wash with a "germicide" (Clorox was often used in commercial kitchens before the wood ban), and as soon as the block is dry, replenish the oil (and the bacteriostatic properties) with a good vegetable oil or, if available, a "butcher block oil" specifically for this use. (NEVER put a mineral oil on wood.)

The same treatment you use for the wooden cutting block/board can also be used on any wooden knife handles.

Note that this interpretation is not accepted by all. They're entitled to their own damfool opinions.

John

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 09:25 AM

My Chicago Cutlery knives are full tang, and have walnut handles (which I don't care for as I should). I wouldn't buy anything but a full-tang knife for any use if I could avoid it, whether that use is in the kitchen or out in the woods & mountains. I've had 'em break on me when I needed 'em and the resulting cussin' is a wonder to hear.

I also wouldn't have a pocketknife that wasn't a lockback. I've had THOSE close on my fingers when I was using them and the cussin' is similar and colored with blood.

I wuz brought up to sharpen at a 10 to 12 degree angle.

Dead right on trying the knives before you buy! If you can't use it safely and comfortably, don't waste the money.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 08:37 AM

We used to have one of those... I'm still using the Kitchen Devil I bought when I was 18... the auto sharpener barely made 18 months.

LTS

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 08:17 AM

That's because basically they are cr*p

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 08:04 AM

I notice that nobody had mentioned the 'auto-sharpening' knives (and scissors) that came with the 'sharpening holder'.... :-)

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 05:28 AM

I purchased a Sabatier Chef's knife at the age of 17, used it professsionally for 8 years, all day every day and used it until 2 years ago when it (not me)had reached the age of 29. It is still a good knife but too small for most of the uses I put it to. I then purchased a new Sabatier Chef's knife at approx £25 which I envisage will last me in domestic use for the resy of my life and which last my son for some years after that. the first was Carbon steel which as already been stated holds a better edge, but the more recent stainless are almost as good. Do NOT wash it, wipe it clean and dry it after each use and the edge will remain sharp with just a brush with a steel before and after use

Cheers

Nick

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 05:16 AM

Wonderful thread. As to wood versus plastic, some time ago I saw some stories like this:


Wood Versus Plastic Cutting Boards


I turned up several other such references, all claiming that experiments with bacteria treated wood and plastic cutting boards demonstrated that wood was apparently safer. They didn't have a theory as to WHY. I did a quick check on urban legends via www.snopes.com and turned up nothing. Eager to find out if the more experienced posters here have additional info. The knowledgeable entries in this thread have been a real treat to read, JiK, YY, JfH, thank you!

I've been a Leatherman fan for years, always carry one with me. Got me in trouble in the airport Saturday when I forgot to put it in my luggage...

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Hrothgar
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 04:24 AM

Don't carry them in your sporran.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 12:29 AM

Another thing about the "Laser" type knives, is that they are very light, I prefer a reasonably heavy knife.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: mack/misophist
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 12:13 AM

I once had a dress belt knift (experimental method) from Boie Knife Works, now defunct, in which carbide crystals were comehow formed within the body of a cast steel blade. I gave it to my nephew after 20 years, still sharp as the day I bought it. This kind of thing is rare. The blade featured a feather in reverse etching.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 12:11 AM

Good points from Yorkshire Yankee.
I bought myself a set of the "Laser 5" knives when they first came out, would not really reccomend them, [2 reasons, the early ones seemed to have a chrome type coating on the blades that wore of after heavy use, and secondly, they had plastic handles], like he says, they are also difficult to keep clean.

Be aware of the different handle types mentioned above, it may seem insignificant, but bear in mind that a plastic handled knife, [Swibo, Victorinox, Laser etc] may be fine for use in cold areas, [butchers, abbatoirs, fish counters etc], a plastic handled knife left on a hot surface, will melt and become useless.

Wooden handled knives, [and wooden chopping boards] are not popular in commercial kitchens as Enviromental Health Officers don't like them, Food Satefy Act 1990 states that surfaces and equipment used in commercial kitchens should be "Smooth, Solid and Impervious to dirt"
ie, non porous and absorbant.

you will still see wooden chopping blocks used in butchers, but in hotels and restaraunts chopping boards are almost always plastic and usually colour coded, [red for raw meat, green for veg, blue for fish etc].

Knives are a personal thing, but I prefer Sabbatier.A good set will last a lifetime.I think there is a set of Sabbatier knives in Argos, but check the prices, you may find it cheaper at Nisbets.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 11:02 PM

Actually not YY here; it's her other half.

I'm a metallurgist; I used to work next door to the cutlery research lab (and got to take some of their used test samples home). My PhD supervisor invented (and patented) what I think is the very best of the no-sharpening knife systems.

The first thing to think about is how you use and care for your knives. If you are a chef, butcher or similar or if you otherwise have access to training (or self-teaching) in how to sharpen a knife properly, then a traditional knife that needs frequent re-sharpening will give you the very best edge you can have. However, as the angle you are aiming for is 18 degrees, and half a degree does make a difference, those of us who are not kitchen gods may find that one of the better no-sharpening knives gives us better results than we could manage for ourselves.

I'm assuming that wld does not want to invest the time needed in learning to professionally sharpen a knife and keep it in top form, so...

There are many types of no-sharpen knife:

The oldest (Richardson's "Laser 5", "Laser 10" and their copies) have an edge like a fancy saw. It does not cut like a saw though – because, unlike wood – food is soft. These work because the tips of the teeth take all of the wear, leaving the edge in the valleys between still excellently sharp, even after years of use. As the blade slides through the food, the fibres spring up behind the teeth, encounter the still-sharp part of the edge and are cut.

Trouble is, they are a swine to clean (you get bits of washing cloth and towel stuck to the teeth) and they look ugly. When they do finally go blunt, you can't sharpen them without access to the special machine that originally made them.

The more recent type (Richardson's "Plasma" and its copies) use Physical Vapour Deposition (PVD) coatings of Titanium Nitride (the pretty gold colour) or Chromium Nitride (a more boring grey). Often this treatment is combined with the "laser" type serrated edge – sometimes not. They work because the TiN/CrN coating is very hard, and wear-resistant, so they keep their edge for a very long time. The problem is the edge should be a sharp angle between the two sides of the knife, but as the nitride deposits, it tends to take on a rounded shape, and is not faithful to the sharp angle of the underlying metal. This means they start out kinda-sharp (not, as you might hope, sharp-sharp) but stay kinda-sharp for the rest of their lives. The coating is so hard that any attempt to re-sharpen the knife is very likely to damage the sharpener.

The third type (the one invented and patented by Jess Cawley at Sheffield Hallam University and owned by Richardson's) uses a High-Velocity Oxy-Fuel (HVOF) sprayed Tungsten Carbide coating along the edge on one side of the blade only. They are marketed in the UK under the names "Fusion", "Fusion Infinity" and "Fusion Professional". They have appeared under M&S's own brand, but so do knives without this coating. They have been sold in the USA under the "Regent Sheffield" brand, but as far as I know are not widely available. The tungsten carbide is a dull grey, slightly speckled substance, laid down in a thin layer along just one side of the edge. If you run your finger VERY CAREFULLY across it, you can feel that it's rough. The Tungsten carbide is extremely hard and so it wears (and loses its sharpness) very slowly. However, when it does wear, it's the uncoated side of the steel that wears first, so the edge angle remains sharp. Eventually the uncoated edge wears so far that a microscopic flake of the edge, complete with the tungsten carbide coat, will come off, leaving a brand new and extremely sharp edge-surface – which still has the tungsten carbide protection and retains its 18 degree angle.

Because one side is uncoated, it is possible to sharpen/modify the blade by sharpening only on the uncoated edge – though it's not reccomended unless you know what you are doing.

The underlying metal is stainless steel, and (with precautions) will even tolerate being put in the dishwasher. Chefs will not make much use of them, because they can get better results by sharpening their own; they are also unpopular with those who want a knife that looks like the ones the TV chefs use (try Sabatier), but for the rest of us, the "Fusion" type Tungsten Carbide on-one-side knife is probably the most practical that money can buy – and far from being the most expensive.

The final consideration is handle type. First, it has to be comfortable for you, and people do tend to have different hand sizes – one size does not fit all. Try before you buy.

The cheapest is moulded plastic. It doesn't look so good and has an association with cheap knives, so the better ones for the domestic market don't tend to have them. However, if you look carefully at the cold meats and butchery counters at your supermarket, you will see that they are probably using moulded-handle professional knives – because the moulded handle gives no hiding place for bacteria and will survive the dishwasher.

Next up (probably) is the wooden handle – as used by Chicago Cutlery in the US and very few here in the UK. (BTW, Chicago Cutlery are not as good as they should be for the price – the ones I've seen don't even use full tang!). Wood looks good, but wears badly, is the most prone to loosening, and gives bacteria a hang-out in the gap between the wood and that metal part that is the continuation of the blade into the handle (the "tang").

Next is the hard plastic riveted-on handle. They look good, wear well, are fairly resistant to loosening (especially if the tang runs the whole length of the handle – a "full tang"). There is not much possibility for bacteria to colonise between the plastic and the metal tang, because it's riveted on so tight.

The ultimate is the fully-forged bolstered blade with full-tang three-rivet handle. The bolster (the thick piece of metal at the base of the blade on some knives) means that the meeting between the metal and the plastic/wood of the handle is a half-inch or so back from where it might touch the food. These knives tend to be hand-forged and are owned by professionals or handed down from ancestors. Buying them is seriously expensive, even if you go to the maker.

Sabatier (and many of their competitors') knives look like they have a fully-forged bolster; maybe they did in the distant past, but what's on sale now has a ground blade with a "fake" bolster soldered/brazed on.

Here endeth this week's metallurgy-for-chefs lecture!

Next week: applying the general metalworking equation to pasta-making...

Iain (YY's Other Half)

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 10:55 PM

Many thanks for all this information and helpful advice.

thanks everyone!

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 10:22 PM

Just looked at the Nisbets website, and apparently it's spelt
Swibo.