BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Peace
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 04:59 PM

"French government policies."

They have policies?

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: GUEST,Willy Nilly
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 04:28 PM

Thus was quoted "Now, Sarkozy's spokesperson has just said that Ireland will have to have another referendum, saying he has "no doubt that Ireland's leaders should be capable of persuading to vote in favour of the Treaty".

Well the French most certainly don't represent Ireland's interests, so perhaps they should keep their noses out of other nation's politics, they don't much like when 'ousiders' dare to make comments about French government policies.

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 04:22 PM

From talking to people in pubs, in hotels, in B&Bs, in shops, on the street, I would have voted "No." I don't think anyone has enough representation, real representation, now.

As for changing the government, remember Tone, Emmett, Pearse, Connelly, McDermott, Plunkett....

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 02:25 PM

As an outsider (N. Am) I don't know the ramifications, so no way I could judge.
Cooperation is fine, but it seems some constitutional changes would be necessary, and some old familiar habits changed, according to the BBC analysts.
This made be wonder if the treaty wasn't a step too far, and that the terms need to be re-thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Peace
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 02:16 PM

"I'll run over 'em with my horse & cart"

I am aware of horses. We in Canada have 'em, too. But what's a cart?

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Def Shepard
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 01:45 PM

Now, Now, Bonnie, it'll be a speeding ticket next :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 01:43 PM

My old farmhouse (I kid you not) only got ELECTRICITY in 1960 - the last ESB pole stops at the edge of my land. Running water was the real johnny-come-lately, 1981. (The well out back still has water in it.) Let 'em just try it... I'll run over 'em with my horse & cart -

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Peace
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 01:29 PM

Wanna bet they have electronic voting machines for the next vote?

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 01:28 PM

> Sarkozy's spokesperson has just said that Ireland will have to have another referendum, saying he has "no doubt that Ireland's leaders should be capable of persuading to vote in favour of the Treaty".

"Persuading"? Does this spokesperson have any idea how hard they tried this time? I can't remember when I last saw such a propaganda campaign. (Not to mention funded it with my taxes.)

There's something deeply repellent in the idea of a government needing to resort to "persuasion" tactics to induce its people to act (as many believe) against their own interests. The wider this dichotomy, the more it smells.

What are they going to do, make us an offer we can't refuse? The whole reason we HAVE a referendum here is because it's in our Constitution. And the whole reason we have a Constitution is ...

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Nickhere
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 01:23 PM

Just to confirm, the Lisbon Treaty has been rejected in Ireland by a margin of 100,000 votes.

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Nickhere
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 01:22 PM

Gulliver, indeed, just like with Nice. The chicanery and stage-managing is believably unbelievable (if you know what I mean). That's one of the worst things about the direction the EU is going in - 'one size fits all'. there's nothing to stop Germany cutting its corporate tax rate if it wnated to, they would then just have the same problems as us funding proper health care etc., and I wonder how long the Germans would put up with that.

They claimed there would be no plan B', which was an obvious lie. What did they think? That we would believe in the event of a No vote they would all just retire and fade away into obscurity? There's always been a Plan B and it's just push the same agenda again, more forcefully and more sneakily. But at least Ireland has shown the way, the next step is for voters in other EU countries to kick up a stink and demand their own referendums. To do that, they need to start preparing for the next elections now and putting skids on the delinquents that currently inhabit their parliments.

In relation to that one group that has been a new success here has been ''People Before Profit Alliance" a kind of coalition of various groups that have camapaigned at street level over the years against privatistaion, stealth taxes, democratic unnaccountability and so on. they have managed to finally plug a recurrent weakness of the left: fragmentation. Maybe branches could be set up in other countries? (I think there's one in the US already)

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Gulliver
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 01:09 PM

Nickhere, another factor was that highlighted by Senator Shane Ross (who's views I would not normally be sympathetic too!), that of the Common Consolidated Tax Base (CCTB), which Nicolas Sarkozy's finance minister, Christine Lagarde, said she would re-visit as soon as France got the Presidency. At the time she said she "hadn't met any Irish people that were afraid of anything. It has been going on for a long time, it's an issue that we are determined to push."

This frightened the government as it would affect Ireland's tax status--both France and Germany want it changed. In deference to the government, the Commission agreed at the summit in December not to publish a draft directive on a harmonised corporate tax base until after the Irish referendum, in case it might upset the applecart, even though the taxation Commissioner Laszlo Kovacs said last year his preference was to publish it in the spring of 2008.

Now, Sarkozy's spokesperson has just said that Ireland will have to have another referendum, saying he has "no doubt that Ireland's leaders should be capable of persuading to vote in favour of the Treaty".

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Def Shepard
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 01:05 PM

Well with us in Britain it's either "New" Labour or the Conservatives and to be quite honest, at times, it's very hard to tell the difference :-P

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Peace
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 01:03 PM

I know that. We have Stephen Harper and his damned Conservatives in Canada. Only thing protecting most Canadians is the fact he has a minority government.

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 12:47 PM

Tried to (same village hall, same little bit of paper) but lost. Then what? Getting rid of a government - by any acceptable means - is easier said than done.

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Peace
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 12:41 PM

Then get rid of your government.

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Def Shepard
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 12:39 PM

"Wonder how long it'll be before they try again under a new guise - "

Not long I'll warrant and mor etax-payers money will go down the plug 'ole with the baby

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Nickhere
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 12:18 PM

And before i forget, it really annoyed me to hear politicians accuse No campaigners of not wanting to be in the heart of Europe. Rubbish! Of course I want to be in Europe! My wife is Italian, and our romance was facilitated by the easy travel and living arrangements between our respective countries. Europe has brought a lot of good things. But the real question is what KIND of Europe did I want to be at the heart of, and certainly it wasn't the anti-democratic one proposed by the Lisbon Treaty / rehashed EU Constitution. Come back with something written in plain English that puts people, and not big corporations first, and maybe I'll consider it.

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Nickhere
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 12:14 PM

Yes, Bonnie, that was disgraceful about 'the poorest nation in Europe when we joined'. Our political masters kept on hammering away at 'look at all the great stuff Ireland got from the EU'. Yes, we did benefit, but there was also some give: look at our fisheries. We gave up fishing rights to huge stretches of national waters, that are now estimated to have been worth billions. Agriculture has also been decimated here.

There were lots of reasons to vote No

1. The rest of Europe wasn't being given a chance to vote either way, and the wishes of the French and Dutch were being ignored. No 'treaty' that claims to lay the basis for a more democratic and transparent Europe could dare to be introduced in such a way.

2. As usual a highly complex legalistic document, which was in fact a series of amendments to other legalistic documents, was aggressively pushed on us by our over beraing leaders as late in the day as possible (toi minimise the chances of people actually reading it and debating it)

3. If you don't understand something, it doesn't make sense to sign up to it.

4. Nonetheless there was plenty that could be understood quite clearly in the treaty:
a. a further shift of power from soveriegn governemnts to an unelected and undemocratic Commission.
b. Loss of our own commisioner for 2 out of every 3 years - for what, in return?
c. A move to qualified majority voting that would see Ireland's vote reduced in Europe - again, for what in return?
Some people say the last point is only fair, given comparative sizes of EU populations. Perhaps, but that belies the thinking of Europe as a federation rather than an association of sovereign independent states.
d. A bigger push to increase privatisation and reduce 'distortion of the markets' that will eventually see more and more basic services in private hands (for profit) and an abandonment of any concept of a state providing for its people. Of course no doubt we'll still be expected to pay income tax!

5. The bullying tones of our leaders and EU leaders - all that dark muttering about 'consequences' for voting the wrong way. Who the **** do they think they are? Are we supposed to be the serfs, just going through a charade of rubber stamping what they tell us to?

6. All the main parties - except Sinn Fein, well done to them - banded together for a Yes vote. Amazing how they can all throw their weight in behind something when it's important enough to them. Pity that the health system and rampant inflation are so way down on their scale of priorities.

7. I was really disgusted by all the smear camapaigning that went on against the main organistaion with the money to campaign for a No vote: Libertas. The main party politicians used clever rhetoric to suggest the money was coming from the US to prevent a united Europe: "I won't say the CIA is behind it..." (nonetheless I've planted the idea in your head). They spent more time cribbing about where did Libertas get their money than explaining what was so bloody good about the Lisbon treaty. This, ironically from a party whose ex-leader's recent explanation for the large amounts of cash he kept in a shoe box in his cupboard because he didn't trust the banks, was that he had had a couple of lucky bets on the horses (I kid you not).

8. For all of these reasons and more they got a well-deserved kick up the ass. They seem to regard this country as a personal fiefdom to be run at their whim under a system of 'surrender and regrant' from Europe. we have a word here to describe them: SHONEENS. If you are ever visiting here and you happen to see one, please do me the favour of shouting it at them as you pass by.

Well done to all who voted No. But watch out for Lisbon, part II!

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 11:53 AM

First the Eurovision, now the EU... what other Big Bad E will come along next?

(Elections? Nope, had those...)

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Peace
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 11:53 AM

Congratulations, Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: GUEST,John from Elsie`s Band
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 11:49 AM

Well done Ireland! This certainly gets the toe-rag Gordon Brown off the hook, he, like Blair, being able to justify his denial of Britain`s promised referendum because somebody else has done the dirty work. You will recall the relief for Blair when France and Holland kicked the constitution into touch.
CAVEAT!! You now watch those scallywags (polite word for bastards) in Brussels cook up some process that they will legitimise allowing the process to rumble forward and sidestep the democratic Irish wish.

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 11:45 AM

Yep, definitely a paper trail. But I voted in a little old village hall out in the country -

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 11:44 AM

A French spokeswoman said on TV a couple of hours ago (sorry, don't know who she was) that Ireland should be "grateful" to the EU because it was the poorest nation in Europe when it joined. (I would need to investigate that statement for factual accuracy before taking it as truth.)

And the relevance to this issue is... ??? "Grasping" and "straws" come to mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: theleveller
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 11:42 AM

"....a lack of proper democracy..."

Pretty much sums up the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: nickp
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 11:41 AM

Well done the people of Ireland! If only Gordon Brown would give us the chance to say NO as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 11:34 AM

To Bonnie Shaljean in The Rebel County:

Bet you're now even more glad that your Home-Grown Ascendancy didn't manage to get their Electronic Voting System up-and-running-in-the-way-they-want; I deduce from your earlier posting that there's still a "paper trail". Just think what could have happened without the opportunity to mark real pieces of paper, but instead touch an icon on a little screen.

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Gulliver
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 11:31 AM

The President of the European Commission, José Manuel Barroso, will make a statement in about two hours time on the result of the Irish referendum--he's been working on it all afternoon.

Eamonn Gilmour of the Labour Party said that his party would not support an attempt to have another referendum on the Treaty.

I think we'll have to wait until France takes over the Presidency in a few weeks time to see what the outcome will be in Europe. One thing that did not help the YES side in the referendum was a statement a couple of weeks ago by a French diplomat (it may have been Sarkozy) that Ireland would "suffer" if she did not deliver a YES vote (sorry I can't provide further details--I heard it on the radio). This got peoples' backs up (of course France, along with the Netherlands, voted to reject the EU Constitution three years ago, upon which all further voting on it was canceled).

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 11:24 AM

Well done the people of Ireland in saying no to this weasely attempt at pushing through something that the people of France and the Netherlands had previously rejected in its former guise as the European Constitution.

Of course the population of the UK were promised a vote on this as well but Blair/Gordon of Cartoon back-tracked and reneged on their promise - and that will not be forgiven when the next General Election comes along.

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Arnie
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 11:00 AM

The latest on BBC news is that Gordon Brown has said that Ireland's NO vote doesn't change a thing. He phoned Sarkozy this lunchtime and said that both the UK and France should continue ratifying the treaty which is going through both Parliaments at present. What a total waste of taxpayers' money and parliamentary time. What will be achieved when the treaty is ratified in the UK and France? It still can't be implemented thanks to our Irish friends. I suppose what it does show is exactly what would have happened in the UK if we'd been allowed to vote on the EU Constitution - whoops sorry, I meant Lisbon Treaty.

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 10:55 AM

Hi Bonnie - the new guise will start 1 July when the French take over the Presidency.....

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 10:46 AM

only four votes decided it in carlow /kilkenny.

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Irene M
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 10:31 AM

Phew. Thank you Ireland.
Anything that keeps the EU from becoming a sodding great dictatorship is fine by me.

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 10:26 AM

Wonder how long it'll be before they try again under a new guise -

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 10:15 AM

Wooops sorry, I misread it as sarcasm -

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 10:14 AM

I am thanking the Irish for throwing it back at them.

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 10:12 AM

I think you mean "thanks masters". It wasn't the Irish who denied you a voice.

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Zen
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 10:11 AM

I know that. I agree with you. The problem is a lack of proper democracy. The outcome of the Irish vote doesn't solve that basic problem.

Zen

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 10:09 AM

The other 459 million of us were not allowed to vote.
Our masters decreed that our acceptance was not required.
Thanks Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Zen
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 10:00 AM

Whatever the final result in Ireland I would have preferred that the political and economic future of 495 million people in the whole of the EU could have been influenced by an overall majority of the EU-wide electorate rather than just 1.3 million voters in Ireland (whether that outcome would have been yes or no).

Zen (expatriated Irishman)

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 09:51 AM

thats made my day.especially as Icouldnt vote but would have voted no.
the bookmakers had a yes vote 1 to 5 on.
so agood result for them too,Iwonder what the odds were for ano vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 09:29 AM

Good point, Paul.

The more I had "VOTE YES" shoved in my face - and we all did (on every single lamp pole along the main national road into the city, how much did that cost the taxpayers?) and much else - the more resistance I felt to being simultaneously manipulated and under-informed (bad combination, that). Multiple emails circulating from the top brass at the educational institution where I teach, politically-interested bodies, all crying Say Yes!!! and exhorting us to Get Out There And Vote!!!!!!!!!

Well, I got out there and voted, all right. A resounding NO, which I X'd in so hard that it almost cut through the ballot paper. Less than a hundred years ago people died for Irish independence. Why give it away now? Why give it away ever? Why give away our enfranchisement? Why should we let the politicians decide what we want and do our voting for us? The Taoiseach has just been thrown out of office for lying and corruption. What's that tell you?

Anybody catch Brian Lenihan (Fianna Fáil TD for Dublin West*) on the telly trying to speak over a booming chorus of shouted NO-NO-NO's from the bystanding populace and getting utterly drowned out, even with mics shoved right up his gob? The only words I caught were him moaning about not being allowed freedom of speech. Freedom of speech????!!!!! Listen all around you, Brian. It's drowning you out, mate.   

Bonnie in The People's Republic Of Cork (returning the highest NO percentage so far)

*Returns just in a few minutes ago from Lenihan's own constituency: One-two-three, all together now: NO

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Paul Burke
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 09:10 AM

They wouldn't have resubmitted the vote if the answer had been yes.

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 08:59 AM

Some of us Over Here don't readily get news like this and I'm glad that this thread was begun. It would have been lost in the earlier one.

Rethink the Treaty, educate the public, and resubmit it to the voters if it's important.

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Gulliver
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 08:58 AM

The first thread discussed the run-up to the referendum in Ireland and the implications of voting yes or no. Now that we know the result, it's a whole different ball-game, with implications that affect the future of Europe as much as Ireland. Don

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 08:26 AM

P.S. I can't really see why you needed to start another thread, 'Gulliver', what was wrong with the other one?

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 08:24 AM

I think this is a good thing for Ireland and Europe as it demonstrates that the electorate are not prepared to be ridden over roughshod by beauracracy. This is true democracy in action! A lot of people who didn't understand what it was all about were advised to vote 'Yes', otherwise, all kinds of unpleasant things COULD happen, so, they felt intimidated. I'm glad it has backfired on those people who gave that kind of advice.

If more time had been given and the facts had been presented in a more effective way, things could have turned out very differently.

Subject: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Gulliver
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 08:09 AM

All the indications from around the country indicate that the referendum on the Lisbon Treaty has produced a victory for the NO campaign. All the working-class constituencies in Dublin and Cork, and constituencies all along the Western sea-board have produced majorities for the NO vote, usually 55%-60% for NO, against 45%-50% for YES. So far, only middle-class constituencies in Dublin and Kildare have a YES majority.

I started a new thread on this topic due to its significance, not only for Ireland but for Europe. Around 10 of the 27 member countries have ratified the Lisbon treaty so far, but none of them with a referendum, Ireland being the only country in the EU to hold one. But without Ireland's agreement the treaty cannot be ratified, as it needs a unanimous vote.

This result is probably unprecedented in Ireland: all the major political parties, almost all the trade unions and the employers' associations urged a YES vote on this issue, but were obviously rejected by the electorate. The Catholic Church remained largely neutral, as did, to the best of my knowledge, other religious groups.

In last week's poll by the Irish Times, which predicted a NO majority, the main reason given by the NO voters was that they did not understand the treaty. This reason was rejected, in somewhat arrogant tones, by the spokesmen for the proponents of the treaty, but they are now realizing that they got it wrong.

What next for Europe?

Don

Subject: RE: Lisbon Treaty: It's up to the Irish
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 07:56 AM

It's looking like the 'No's' have won it!

I think this was all about a) the Irish people considering that they were being ridden over roughshod b)the whole thing was a complete dog's breakfast by the EU & Irish Government, not enough was explained what it was all about until the very last minute, and then, we only seemed to get half the story; people were, not surprisingly very suspicious, especially after the Bertie Ahern debacle and general mistrust in the government after the Shannon Airport scandal in the West, amongst other things. I think they just felt they wanted some kind of revenge and this was a channel to do it!

Subject: RE: Lisbon Treaty: It's up to the Irish
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 05:02 PM

The more I'm hearing, the more I'm convinced of a 'No' vote (were I entitled to vote)!