Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 May 99 - 11:40 AM

Wow, Hank. I guess I've been reading these a bit differently. The fear I see is coming from those who have guns and are prepared to use them for defense because of the fear they feel from other segments of the population.

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: tomtom
Date: 19 May 99 - 11:37 AM

It seems to me that a lot of people in this discussion who are supporting the right to own guns site "fear" as their reason for wanting to own a gun. If you're owning a gun because you feel the need to defend yourself, you must fear something.

Having lived in London for a while (in 1992, during a period of intensive IRA bombings), I can say that, personally, I felt much safer there than I ever felt in New York or Washington DC or any other American city that I spent any time in. And I think part of the reason I feel less safe in America is "guns" and another part of it is a general distrust of one's fellow man (and woman) that seems more prevalent here than in other places in the world. And they're two sides of the same coin. In general, the flow of life in America, I think, isolates people. Driving all the time. Sitting in front of the TV all the time. There's much less socializing in the States, and I think it makes us feel less comfortable around people. And distrust them. And maybe even fear them. And I think it's distrust and fear that makes us want to buy guns.

Of course, there are some very real reasons to fear and distrust, but the situation seems somehow self-perpetuating. Someone in this discussion used the phrse "cold war" to describe the gun situation here in the States, which I thought was very appropriate.

That's not to say that the rest of the world is having an all-out love-in. But people seem much more at ease with strangers in other places I've lived--in Europe and Asia--than they do here.

Sorry to go on and on, tomtom

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: hank
Date: 19 May 99 - 09:15 AM

I find it interesting that people can feel safe in the UK with all the Irish problems. (Not taking sides on that conflict)
Not. People feel safe where they are unless there is some reason not to. The US is a perfectly safe place to be, I feel in no way threatened, and I never have. Maybe that will change, but I don't understand the people who live in fear as I've never lived that way.

I'm just trying to turn this discussion around, because there seem to be people who fear someone, and therefore hate guns. (Remember a gun never kills unless an action is taken to cause it to fire, and those actions are done by humans, accident or not) I still contend that it is the fear that needs to be faced and solved, not the means of causing it.

I would not claim your fears are groundless. There may indeed be people with guns out to get you. There are peole with guns out to get everyone they can. But guns are not the cause, guns are one means, and they have used others in the past, with more success.

I don't claim to offer solutions, but I will contend that taking away my guns won't solve your fear. Drugs are illegal, and cocain doesn't grow in the US, yet tons of it arrive in the US every year despite a strong US presence in areas where it is grown. Those who you fear will either find a gun like they find drugs now, or they will find anouther way to get you.

We have laws about murder already, but it doesn't stop intentional murder. WE have laws about what the police can do, but it didn't stop the Branch Daividian thing. (Not to defend the Branch Daividians who were not great people, but they police going against them were not doing their job right)

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: SeanM
Date: 19 May 99 - 03:29 AM

Alex, please. Mudcat, as has been noted in ample other threads, has grown. Music is, and will always be the focus of what is discussed here. For the most part, as has ALSO been noted in several other threads, the musical conversations greatly outnumber the non-musical ones. A disproportionate amount of the non-musical threads stay near the top of the thread list, partially due to the fact that there's a limit on how many times you can post alternate chord structures or lyrics, but there is an almost infinite variety of opinions on most major subjects in today's world. I would politely request of you, that if you do not enjoy the other threads, then PLEASE stop posting to them. I'm certain that you have a great deal of knowledge regarding the musical topics that we discuss, but your style of 'discourse' is proving to be a bit abrasive in the other threads.

As to the topic at hand?

I support the criminalization of hand gun ownership. There are not enough situations where a hand gun is the best or most effective deterrent. Non-lethal deterrents are smaller and easier to use in close quarters, and in the household, a rifle or shotgun is much less likely to be easily stolen and used against it's owner, as well as having a significantly higher intimidation factor against an intruder.

My three cents, and apologies for the opening rant.

M

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 May 99 - 02:31 AM

Rick, I'm with Heather. I always took it to mean a baby was thrown off the bridge.

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Alex
Date: 19 May 99 - 02:20 AM

I started out by calling Tucker a Dingbat (what is the definition of a dingbat, anyway?) because there was already a thread that was ongoing and he chose to make a political statement by spinning off another thread (this one) and I felt that it should not go unanswered. His "friends" (all 8 of them) supported him and some others chastised me for my rhetoric. They asked where did I come from, and Banjer, although kind in his analysis of my interests and sense of humor, proved delightfully schitzophrenic by searching my previous posts and "outing" my location in the US. He also noted that I have been posting since 10/22/96 That is true and I have been using this forum to help folks and get information on folk music since then.. Hey, I did the forum browse thing, Bob Schwarer is the closest at 11/4/96 and most of you are within the last 12 months. Tucker's first post (under that id) was 4/10/99 - how do you make so many friends in a month? I reiterate my statements that this should be a sharing site for folk music enthusiasts and that we should shun those who would use this for their extremist views.

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 19 May 99 - 12:46 AM

Rick- I can't remember. Was Sergeant Preston packin' ? Seems like he had a Winchester strapped to the old sled. Now it is interesting that Canadians, who opened up the Canadian West just as we were opening up (screwing up?) our West, did it without using guns for hunting- did they just trap game? That would require more patience than the average American possesses. Maybe that explains the differences between our two nations, who otherwise have so much in common- you guys are just willing to wait things out.

And by the way, this is the most reasonable discussion of guns and gun control that I have ever witnessed. Thanks for starting it Tucker.

LEJ

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 18 May 99 - 11:40 PM

Never thought I'D say this, but could we get back to music for one question? What the hell WAS "Ode to Billy Joe" about? What were they flingin' off the Talahatchie Bridge? Was it his N.R.A. membership? If Richard is right, maybe it was his Judy Garland records. Heather says it was a baby, but surely even pop music wouldn't sink that low.
Poor Bobby Gentry, one hit and she joins the "never to be heard from again club".

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Bud
Date: 18 May 99 - 11:29 PM

It is extraordianry how American society in the last century (can't use that term much longer about the 1800's) went from a country where most men went around armed to a society where the only persons who publicly wore guns were law officers. With the exception of Prohibition Era gangsters, this trend continued for the first sixty years of this century. In the sixties there seemed to be a sea-change in alot of American attitudes in a variety of areas. Many were long overdue starting with civil rights, equality for women, and the tolerance of smoking everywhere.

Other changes were destructive of the fabric of society. Movies and televison started to the trend of programs that featured violence as the justification the film\program. The wide spread abuse of drugs has lead to a Prohibition-style gangster culture. The 1800's overcame the dangers of opium. (Heroin got its start as a sort of methadone for opium users. OOPS!!! That is why it has its name.)

In the village I grew up in fifty-odd years ago nearly all the males and many of the females hunted. Opening day of pheasant season saw a marked drop in school attendance. Yet the idea of using firearms on others was beyond the pale. That small village is now a large suburb. Hunting season is not followed by many. I haven't hunted since I got married. (My wife was savaged by her grandmother's guard dog and was uncomfortable about having a dog in the house. I won't hunt with out a dog, lest game not be found and left to linger.)

I don't have a gun now, but vigorously support the right of others to responsibly own guns. I do not belong to the NRA becaause they seem to oppose any change. I do not own a gun, but have a card that would allow me to. That will no doubt bring me grief when the politically correct force the law-abiding to surrender their guns!

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: puzzled
Date: 18 May 99 - 09:51 PM

Freedom of some choices are still possible in this country. And I guess one of the reasons i have spoken up in this thread is because the gun ownership question is a recent one for me and one made with a lot of hard deliberation.
I think that the need to ensure survival of my children is a much stronger force in me than i would have been able to recognize even a couple of years ago. Maybe even THE major part of my decision.
I live in a quiet peaceful area of subtle beauty. A creek whose flowing waters sooth me. Gentle rolling tall grass prairie hills to hike through and feel at peace in. It was very disturbing to have that so unexpectedly invaded.
I am a calm person, slow to anger. I have no fear of domestic violence because our house is a home of joy and love. I choose a weapon for the same reason some people buy insurance. It provides a feeling of security. Like it or not even my kids feel safer and sleep easier now because they know we are prepared to deal with an unwelcome armed intruder. It still was a hard choice for me. But i am glad i was able to make my own choice.
Now i pray that we are never again faced with the need to follow through on that choice.
I certainly understand other people's strong opposition to such a choice. I hear moonchild's anger and fear of her attacker and could care less how she votes, I would willing help hold down the hooded asshole as she ripped him up. I admire Uilleand's ability to make such a sacrifice for the belief of doing no harm. But i am also aware of where my own comfort zone is and have chosen true to my own heart.
I'd rather be singing.

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 May 99 - 06:49 PM

Uilleand, spoken like a true Buddhist*smile*. A nice concept to try to live by, that, of ahimsa, or harmlessness in all things. You have put it very eloquently. Thank you.

katlaughing

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Uilleand
Date: 18 May 99 - 06:37 PM

kat, you don't have to leave for Scotland, it's up to us to live by example and show the world and our children that it isn't necessary to own a gun. Scotland already has the laws. We have to show people here that fear and anger only breed fear and anger. Self-defense requires self discipline, otherwise it becomes just another form of attack. And security requires building a community through compassion, teaching our children that the answer isn't in violence. Even the attacker believes himself to be the defendor, against being oppressed, humiliated, and on and on. It will never end unless we find the courage to lay down our weapons in the face of attack. That is true freedom. Nothing left to lose. Not afraid to lose the ultimate: life itself.

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 May 99 - 06:11 PM

Rick, it was Bordertown. And, I met many people in New England who had never owned a gun and had no desire to. Remember my dad was grew up in the old West on a ranch homsteaded by his grandparents, one of whom was a U.S. Deputy Marshall and had to kill several in his career in self-defense or protection of someone else's life. It was the nature of the settling; NOT something I am particularly proud of, esp, the native american part of me, even though it is just a smidgen.

A gun, in those days, was just part of the rancher's gear, for putting an animal out of its broken-leg misery or protecting oneself, etc. I would bet that at one time, when grocery stores were not readily available, that Mounties did carry some kind of weapon for hunting, another thing I abhor, but do recognise that back then it was part of living.

I feel I've evolved and do not feel the need to live in fear with a gun readily available; never did actually. Now, a can spray paint and we can talk!*smile* It might sound trite, but growing up in the West, guns were just part of the culture. I do not believe our culture, now, is such that they should be a part of it anymore.

Whew! No easy answers! Maybe I'll have to move to Scotland after all.

kat, pacifically

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Moonchild
Date: 18 May 99 - 05:59 PM

Richard Bridge ... Ode to Billy Joe is not about homosexuality.

Puzzled ... I'm envious of the fact that you "won't be startled and accidentally fire at some one," and "won't pull the gun unless i KNOW that i feel threatened." I, too, once made those statements, but my attacker robbed me of feelings of security I once had. You are correct in saying I made a good self appraisal in choosing not to own a gun. Remember ... "There but for the grace of g-d, go I."

The diverse reasons for owning/not owning a gun are interesting. I find it interesting that whenever anyone makes a statement regarding gun ownership, they are immediately labeled as Republican or Democrat, a flaming liberal or a John Birch Society conservation. I am a liberal Democrat. I will not own or house a gun, however, I would think nothing of ripping off the testicles of the hooded man who attached me. I wonder how y'll would classify me now. moonchild

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 18 May 99 - 05:33 PM

The new points of view are interesting. Also as a non-American (Canadian eh?) I'm a bit non-plussed at the American comfort level with guns. Even the vehemently anti gun folks like Kat have owned 'em, learned to use 'em and shot 'em. I have a wide social circle and can truthfully say that over thirty years perhaps ONE or TWO of my Canadian friends and acquaintances has owned a gun that I have seen. Perhaps many of them DO have guns, but it just NEVER comes up in conversation. Now snowmobiles - that's another story!
A few years ago in the news I read that a TV series was in the works about a Canadian Mountie and an American Sheriff (or marshall) that had to do with the Alaska/Yukon border at the turn of the century. I've completely forgotten the name of the show - help me. The producers (American) absolutely could not believe that the Mounties did NOT carry guns, yet apparently kept the peace as well or better than their "shootin' iron" totin' counterparts. Well not only could they not believe it, but they refused to make the series unless the Mountie started packin'. So the series was made and was successfull, but historically inaccurate.
I should perhaps add, lest I be seen as being self-righteous, that although I can't picture ever killing a creature for the fun of it, I ain't no vegetarian, love steaks, carve leather, and once went to a target shooting club, where I didn't embarrass myself with a .22. I see the irony and my own hypocritical position clearly.

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Llanfair
Date: 18 May 99 - 04:52 PM

Puzzled.... the point I was trying to make, unsuccessfully, it would appear, is that I felt alienated from the majority of Mudcatters because carrying firearms is not a citizen's right in Britain, and not a consideration for the majority when they feel, or are, threatened. Richard Bridge.....Ilive and work in Wales, and I avoid the cities here as I would in the rest of the UK, by choice. I work as a Social Worker, covering an area of 40 square miles ish, and do not fear stray bullets or any firearms. Mudcat is about a shared delight in Folk and Blues music. This discussion is fascinating, helping me to understand the American philosophies and lifestyle. Thank you for that. Hwyl Bron

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 May 99 - 04:47 PM

Cara, from the looks of it: Paranoia/fear of the right wingers? They have gotten an inordinate amount of press which paranoia feeds off of.

Uilleand, very well-said.

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Cara
Date: 18 May 99 - 04:41 PM

Uilleand--well said.

All,

I'd be interested to hear more from theb non-U.S. Mudders, especially those in the UK, on what it's like in societies with severely restrictive gun laws; do people care? why not? how much safer is it? and in the UK, how did the gun owners react to the passing of tougher laws in the wake of the Dunblane killings?

And to all: what's so different in the U.S.? It seems to me that the Second Amendment has been exploited to suit the whims of the NRA. But then what's behind Americans' fierce desire to own firearms? The right wing government hating militiamen are in the minority (for now) so what drives everyone else? Surely it's not target practice and hunting for sport?

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 May 99 - 04:28 PM

But, that is not their express purpose of manufacture.

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Bob Schwarer
Date: 18 May 99 - 04:24 PM

As an aside(but not too far) cars are used as weapons. A lot more often than you might think. Not as often as guns, though.

Bob S.

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: annap
Date: 18 May 99 - 03:36 PM

Puzzled,

For a minute there I felt maybe you were from New York ;-)

Annap

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Uilleand
Date: 18 May 99 - 03:03 PM

And here I thought I was being blatantly ironic. Well, live and learn.

I was trying to say that personal freedom is purely a matter of perspective. I do not feel that my freedom is in any way diminished, if the law says, I can't carry a gun. I've lived under a government that said just that, and life was just fine, actually safer than here. I think most any of us who have lived in such countries most of our lives would agree. I came here and I chafed at having to abide by a speed limit that is much lower than what I was used to. But I see the rational. Statistics show that the majority of guns purchased for personal protection, if used, are turned against the person who bought it in the first place. Sounds like a good argument not to have one in the house. As to hunting and target shooting, well, the strict regulations in Germany allow for those (Gun Clubs, hunting seasons,etc.). It seems to be a much more responsible approach to owning guns. What message exactly are we sending our children by this easy availability of guns? The power struggle seems to be much more reminiscent of a cold war in our own homes, with the occasional casualty being our friends and neighbours. Is that really worth it? No, I choose not to live in constant fear, symbolized by a gun in the house. Guns are not the answer to personal safety.

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: LEJ
Date: 18 May 99 - 02:45 PM

to Puzzled...guess what? I almost think we AGREE! :)

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 May 99 - 02:40 PM

Margarita: It is innate in permissiveness that one permits others to differ. Thus if the Jocks at Columbine were properly socialised to recognise a permissive society that socialisation would have prevented their victimisation of the Geeks - prevented the same sort of high-school social stratification which many (I think)of us non-Americans find so alarming in much USTV we see. Rather (gosh, on this site I seem to find myself writing American almost by instinct) it is the small-town insistence on sameness and intolerance of difference which leads to the treating of a minority as underdogs - almost outlaws - to be persecuted with impunity, indeed for that persecution to be approved and treated as if it presenves and staabilises society. Hence the recent small-town homophobic murder, and the situation portrayed in the Ode to Billy Joe (as I recollect, a vulnerable teenager being so terrified of the potential small-town condemnation of an isolated homosexual act that he committed suicide). These victims are, or feel, powerless in present societies to achive redress for the injustices piled upon them. Thus they turn to violence against themselves or others. Fix the alienation and you solve not only many gun deaths but also many other deaths.

Llanfair: You remember a different Wales to the one reported by HTV, for whom I used to do some work, and a different one from the Wales where a schoolfriend of mine later had a farm (near Lampeter). In the former the Cardiff gangs routinely go armed. In the latter every Landrover carried several shotguns (some over-and-under pump actions) and most farmers one met out walking carried a twelve bore and at least some swan shot cartridges. Some were pointed at my friend when he showed interest in local farmers' daughters!

BobS: perhaps you have put your finger on it. The genetic imperative compels us to seek genetic survival. That means, in the ultimate solution, killing those who would prevent our gene pool continuing. If that's a desing flaw, and you eliminate it then we will be wiped out by the first competitor that comes along. How does it go? In a closed ecosystem with one dominant predator, if you introduce a superior predator, the former dominant predator will become extinct.

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: puzzled
Date: 18 May 99 - 02:33 PM

I live in the Flint hills of Kansas, half way between KC and Wichita. County with 2800 people 750,000 cows.

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: puzzled
Date: 18 May 99 - 02:30 PM

LEJ: i would not be so ridiculous as to suggest that we ban cars glasses, fertilizer, bleach, lawnmowers, etc. but i do say again that i only felt threatened once by some one with a gun and have felt threatened many times with someone else in their car. And i agree that if only assault weapons were not being manufactured we would all be better off. I don't like the fact that people own assault weapons but they do. And i am not opposed to gun show registration or background checks or any type of gun control i just don't see it having much effect in solving the problems caused by gun use.

katlaughing: no one around here lives by the "code of the old west" either except reenactment folks. Maybe we have just been lucky that no one has been shot or killed here. And i feel like i probably agree with you in dreaming. I don't like guns. But they are here.
I "imagine all the people living life in peace". And it really bums me out that the life of the man who could voice that imagination was ended by a handgun.
I will pray for peace.
I will imagine peace.
But i will keep my eyes open to what is really around me.

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: John OSh
Date: 18 May 99 - 02:27 PM

Intresting arguments all around. The wonderful thing about both America and this site is it offers an open forum to discuss these issues. As a relatively new participant in Mudcat, and much more frequently just a "reader" rather than an active participant, I enjoy the free discourse.

Now my two cents....

I live in a big city with frequent crime. It is illegal for private citizens except security professionsals and police to own weapons. If it is not related to drug/gang wars, only the unarms population is being killed by the criminals.

We MUST enforce existing laws. Sure, there is strong basis for some gun control laws, such as background checks, mandatory training classes, etc., but not for the outlawing of an individual right under the constitution to bear arms.

I worked in the social services for several years, and I was shocked at the attitudes and permissivness of the parents of many of the children with whom I worked - from all socio-economic backgrounds. They do not monitor what the children watch on television. They bring 10 year old children to R rated horror movies. They feel that it is too much trouble to keep in touch with what their children are reading or what their after school activities/friend are.

Instances such as the Colorado shooting are a flashpoint - to which reasonable people are outraged at an event and often act unreasonably in response.

If some parents were to invest as much effort in rasing their children as in their career - perhaps we would not be discussing this issue in a forum. (I know a lot of parents will be mad - thinking I am attacking them, but I am not. Most parents are good people, attentive to the need needs and challenges of their child.)

A parents job is raising their child, not being the childs friend. As well, it is not, and should not be the governments job to raise our children!

All this leads in a conveluted way to the point on guns - with discipline come the ability to handle responsibility, including the responsibiliy of mature decisions regarding whether or not to own guns by law abiding citizens.

Last point -

Stalin "registered" then disarmed the Armenians with guns - result, over 20 million dead

Hitler "registered" and disarmed the Jew, Gypsys, and political opponents - result, attenpted Genocide.

The Khemer Rouge disarmed the Cambodian population - result, death toll in the millions, final tally still unknown!

Think it can't happen here to some degree?

I bet all the millions dead thought the same thing.

Freedom is not a gift, it is a duty of all citizens, if you choose to own guns or not.

I'll get off my soap box now.

John OSh

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: annamill
Date: 18 May 99 - 02:21 PM

Puzzled, May I ask where you live?

Annap

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: SeanM
Date: 18 May 99 - 02:10 PM

I think I like Kat's idea... Let's support the right to sue guns!

Trying to inject a bit of levity into a tense situation...

M

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: LEJ
Date: 18 May 99 - 02:06 PM

And so we go back to the old tired argument "they want to stop Gun Show sales with no ID or background check therefore what they REALLY want is to take everyone's gun away."That is the same BS that the NRA has been spouting for 20 years, and it is that position that is forcing people who are in the middle of this situation to take a harder and harder approach to gun control.

Cara- I wasn't trying to characterize you as an "extremist", only trying to show that their are people who support tighter gun-control who are coming from different positions.

Uilleand- sad to say that some people here couldn't even understand that you were trying to be ironic.

"Cars cause more deaths than guns, therefore let's ban cars (glasses, fertilizer, bleach, lawnmowers, etc.)" Question: What is the primary use of a car? Answer:Transportation. Question :what is the primary use of a shotgun?Answer: Hunting, target-shooting or killing humans. Question:What is the Primary use of an AK47 assault weapon? Answer: Target-shooting or killing humans. The difference is really quite obvious, the argument is a weak one, but one that has become like a piece of sacred text in the NRA Gospel. Repeating it over and over eliminates the need to actually think about it.

LEJ

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 May 99 - 02:04 PM

Puzzled, I don't know what part of the West you live in, but here in Wyoming, the immediacy of domestic violence invariably escalates to thoughtless murder with a gun. Poison is not a choice in the throes of passion.

And, over the past two or three years, it wasn't the city slickers who've accidentally killed their friends while hunting...it's been a Wyoming father, brother, son, etc.

People do NOT live by the old "code of the West" like my dad and grandad did. They respected gun and the fact that they were designed to be lethal. They practised self-control of emotions, etc. and never used a gun in anger, spite, etc. If this were true of most today, it would be a different story.

No, I don't think we could ever disarm America, but we can put controls on what is manufactured and sold to the general public. What self-repecting hunter wants an assault rifle to hunt with? Personally, I do, as the bumper sticker says, "support my right to arm bears", as I don't think much of humans who track down animals in an uneven game of killing.

I would like to see guns become obsolete. But that would be Utopia and is probably on another planet in a galaxy, far, far away. Ah, perchance to dream!

katlaughing

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: puzzled
Date: 18 May 99 - 01:49 PM

If no one had guns or if it were possible to collect all the guns owned in the USA It might feel safe for all of us in regard to guns. As already mentioned there are many other weapons just as dangerous. But the situation is that there are guns. A plenty. Even though i own a gun for protection i still don't feel comfortable that my neighbors and friends own assault weapons. Big nasty looking machine guns. One neighbor even has artlillery weapons. They don't hunt. They collect. And some of them are what are known as survivalists. And they already have the guns.
Registration, waiting periods, background checks are maybe good ideas. But they don't change the fact that guns are already there. In copious quantities. No one in this country is talking about confiscating the guns. Could it be done even if they were? Not very easily around here.
In this rural area people can and do wear guns in holsters visible to everyone still today. It is cowboy country and some of the western spirit (good and bad) still lives. It is not illegal because they are not concealed weapons. But in my whole life i have never heard of anyone shot around here accidentally or otherwise. (of course, i have heard about it in other places) We did have a youngster on the other side of the county that removed a few of his fingers building a pipe bomb. He was using the powder that his granddad used to blow up tree stumps.
If Cara is uncomfortable with owning and using a gun she shouldn't. The city folk that come out here to hunt and end up shooting someone's cow because they thought it was a deer shouldn't be owning or using a gun. I think moonchild made a good self appraisal and chose not to get a gun. But i won't be startled and accidentally fire at some one. I won't pull the gun unless i KNOW that i feel threatened. Or when my children are learning to use it correctly under my supervision.
No body knows i own this gun. It was bought from a friend. There are many guns like that. I would be willing to bet that outlaws that use guns perferr them unregistered though i don't know any outlaws. And people who get shoot in domestic violence could just as easily be poisoned or hit with a fireplace poker or . . .
Yes, guns are dangerous. Yes, it would be better if we didn't have them. But we do and more laws will not correct that. All this arguing about gun control, waiting periods etc. is only arguing. Guns killed my native american ancestors. Guns are killing in yugoslavia. Guns are glorified in movies. Guns are part of all of our lives in this century and into the next. I wish i didn't feel threatened and feel a need for a gun for protection. I wish this country's military wasn't killing in eastern europe. I wish children didn't kill other children. I wish (insert gun control, waiting periods, background checks, whatever)
my grandmother told me that if wishes were horses beggars would ride. You can't wish away a problem. And i really don't think you can legislate away guns in this country though it might be possible to legislate more reasonable manufacture of such weapons.

Note to LLANFAIR, when i am playing my piano and singing i would hope that any other musician would be willing and able to relate and communicate through the universal language of music. I would hope that my choice to have a gun at home would not prevent you from sharing the joy of music with me or anyone. We don't have to agree to harmonize. And harmonizing is much more fun than agruing.

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Bob S.
Date: 18 May 99 - 01:26 PM

After watching a show about digging{literally) into the past and finding that masacres & killings have been going on forever, I must make the conclude that there is a basic design flaw in us.

Time to start over. Are you listening?

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Margo
Date: 18 May 99 - 12:41 PM

Uilleand: Only the lawless need laws. But you better be damned sure what you're doing is right, if you're going to disregard laws! I think in a society we will always need laws.

Cara: On the news from Oregon, two women were fighting over a barstool in a bar. One slashed the other's face from her mouth to her ear with her broken glass from her drink. Ought we outlaw glasses?

No. What she did is called assault. It is against the law. She broke the law. No matter how many laws you have, the lawless will continue in their manner, wreaking havok on the law abiding and others.

Ban guns, and the lawless will continue in their manner, wreaking havok with black market guns on a defenseless unarmed law abiding populace.

Margarita

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Bob Schwarer
Date: 18 May 99 - 10:55 AM

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: hank
Date: 18 May 99 - 10:42 AM

Cara, I think you mispoke, you said "The commmon denominator for most people who kill other people is...GUNS." I think you ment The commmon denominator for most people who kill other people is...alchahol. Drunks kill people every day, many murders with a gun are done by drinkers, many drunks without a gun get in a car and kill people. (just because it is an accident doesn't make those people any less dead) drunks with knives have commited murder. Look at this, I would ahve to say that banning alcahol is the best way to prevent senseless killings.

It is time that we all recignise how many evils are done by people who drink, and stop the problem at the source.

What do you mean I'm sarcastic? it is true that alcahol is involved in a large number of deaths, it just happens that most of you drink it once in a while (responsibally) so you don't want your own ability to use something potentially deadly infringed upon, but your willing to infring upon others.

Really people, there are no simple solutions. Bombs can be easially made from simple household chemicals, including flour from your kitchen cupboard. The bad people out there will find a way to kill.

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Uilleand
Date: 17 May 99 - 06:27 PM

Many Americans defend their right to bear arms as savagely as many Germans defend their right to drive as fast as they can. Being from both countries I should be entitled to do both any time I please. Come to think of it, why are there laws in the first place, besides make lawyers rich. Am I not responsible enough to lead my life as I see fit? I think as a responsible person I should be allowed to keep my own nuclear arsenal. After all I may need it to defend myself in case of the next world war. Can't trust the police to do their job, and forget about the military, they're too busy provoking another war. I had better stock up on some of those arms. And reflecting on Mister Franklin's quote, whose security and whose freedom are we talking about anyway? I think any law that cramps my style should be done away with in the name of freedom. So what, if a few kids get killed because I forgot to put my gun away. Just call them casualties in the war of personal freedom. Wait there is a word hovering around my consciousness, oh yes, - anarchy, that's what it was. Such a wonderful concept. Since we are all such enlightened infallible beings who would never harm anyone else, even in self-defense, or by accident, say by letting kids get access to guns, we don't need no stinkin' laws. Because, oh my God, I can't possibly be held responsible for that, just because I happen to own a gun. As a matter of fact I shouldn't be held responsible for anything. I didn't know what was going on in those concentration camps. I was just minding my business. --which right now is stirring the pot some more.

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Bob Landry
Date: 17 May 99 - 06:21 PM

I don't want to pontificate for or against guns. Let's just say that I don't and never will own a gun, but I do enjoy target practice. I look at it as playing golf or music, simply as a challenge to myself to do better. But the indiscriminate use of guns by the public is something I find very scary and I really want no part of.

For those Canadians who look to Canada as a safe haven, keep in mind we're not immune to the use of guns. Aside from the recent copycat high school shooting in Taber, remember the bicycle shooter in Halifax from the early 1960's, the McDonalds murders in Sydney, the kid here in St. Albert who killed his father, mother and step-sisters in the 1980's. That last one hit home as two of the little girls killed were schoolmates of my youngest son.

I do feel safer in areas where there are fewer guns as, apparently, did Mike Sadava, one of our local musicians, when he penned the following tune:

Bob

------------

NEVER BEEN TO TEXAS

(Music and Lyrics (c) 1997 by Mike Sadava, SOCAN/ASCAP)

Well Texas brought us western swing from Bob Wills and the boys
Hank and Lyle and Ernest Tubb made a joyful noise
From the Alamo to the Astrodome from Paris to Galveston
Texas has a lot to offer including lots of guns

No I've never been to Texas
No I've never owned a gun
No I've never been to Texas
Sure as shootin I'm never gonna come

They got shotguns, handguns, snub-nosed, magnums, guns for the little lady too
There's 50 million guns in Texas and one that's right for you
You can take one off to church with you; If you want you can take two
You can even wear one in your underwear and the cops there won't say boo.

No I've never ...

There's one thing I don't understand; I'll admit it bothers me some
Why people of such calibre need to own so many guns
They got shot guns handguns, snub nose, magnums, guns for the little lady too
There's 50 million guns in Texas and one that's aimed at you.

No I've never ...

No I've never ...

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Indy Lass
Date: 17 May 99 - 05:48 PM

I like how Cara makes her point against gun ownership in a populace such as ours (US). And I can't help looking over our border with Canada with envy at how their society, which isn't all that different from ours (although some of my Canadian friends would disagree) has addressed their own situation of "the gun question." We lived in Ontario while attending graduate school. And I still love to go there to travel, enjoying Toronto's nightlife--some good music there if you've yet to visit!

And my user name, annieglenn, was the name of one of my great-grandmothers.

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 May 99 - 05:12 PM

LLANFAIR and Cara,

I can understand your feelings. The world just isn't like it used to be, esp. when it comes to guns. Llanfair, your Wales sounds a much safer/saner place to be, cherish it.

Cara, as I said in my editorial in the other thread (there's a link in here, in a previous posting of mine), a good can of spray paint can really disable an assailant and it's not lethal.

katlaughing

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Cara
Date: 17 May 99 - 05:07 PM

Well, I hate to think of myself as an extremist but in reading my post again I do sound a little...excitable. I stand by the vehement disagreement part though. I just have yet to hear of a justification for gun ownership that can compete with the right for us all to have a safe society.

There are enough guns in the U.S. for every adult and every other child. Is that not crazy? Is it so surprising then that our violent crime rate is among the highest in the world?

I live in a major city, and have lived by myself at various times. Friends of mine have been attacked in my neighborhood, and I have been robbed several times, as well as having had a serial voyeur plague me. For years I routinely got off work and came home well after midnight, in waitress gear, establishing those patterns all of us savvy street smart women are judiciously taught to avoid. I know about being afraid, so afraid that you worry you won't have breath to scream if you need to, and I wouldn't hesitate to kick and scratch and bite to defend myself or my family.

But I would never own a gun. Never, never ever. That is not what I want to bring as part of my contribution to the place I choose to live. THe possible good (of defending myself) is far outweighed by the possible bad (of accidentally shooting someone, of accidentally being shot, of having the weapon fall into the wrong hands). I wouldn't necessarily want to take single shot rifles out of the hands of responsible sportsmen, but I would not be sad to see that happen, if necessary, as one facet of public disarmament.

Cara, calmer but firm.

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Llanfair
Date: 17 May 99 - 04:57 PM

Since i first came across The Mudcat, I felt that I had met up with a collection of like-minded people, who may, in the long-term, become friends. I have followed this thread with an almost morbid interest,and have just worked out why. This thread has clearly put a boundary between myself and a number of other Mudcatters, purely because we live in different countries with different laws and customs. I wasborn and brought up in an environment where gun ownership is limited and owners are known to, and monitored by the police. My eldest son aquired an air rifle in his teens, and I was appalled. The culture of owning and using guns on a day-to-day basis, reminds me that I am alien to a lot of you out there. That makes me very sad. Can the music be powerful enough to make these differences unimportant? Hwyl, from Wales, Bron.

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Bob Schwarer
Date: 17 May 99 - 02:16 PM

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Bob Schwarer
Date: 17 May 99 - 02:16 PM

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: LEJ
Date: 17 May 99 - 01:32 PM

I believe that the main problem here is the black/white guns or no guns issue. At the extremes are people, like Tucker who apparently believes that there should be little or no government control over firearms, and Cara who seems to advocate the outlawing of all guns. For the rest of us, the decision is not that clear-cut. Granted, the ownership of a shotgun may give a homeowner a measure of security- but does he need a Tec 9 or an AK47? And if the ability to overthrow a repressive government is the issue, don't we all need rocket-launchers and grenades to stand a chance? When they come knocking on my door to take Grandpa away because he is a member of the John Birch Society, how can I be assured of having maximum firepower?

What I want is to keep my shotgun and bolt-action rifle, yet see reasonable curbs on assault weapons and handguns, with reasonable determination of age and background for weapons purchases.

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Margo
Date: 17 May 99 - 01:01 PM

I'm pleased to see such diverse points of view.

Richard Bridge: I don't understand what you mean by "The permissiveness she condemns is the mercy which would have saved the "Geeks" at Columbine from being tortured on a daily basis by the "Jocks". " Could you please explain that? It seems that you may misunderstand me because I am talking about a pervasive permissiveness that is already present in our society, so how is it that the permissiveness would have saved the "Geeks" from being tortured? I don't get it. Also, I don't understand your reference to "Ode to Billy Joe". I'm sorry about not catching on.

Dwditty: I think you hit the nail on the head; our youth have been "desensitized to indecency". I think it would serve us well to take a look at what causes such desensitizing.

I'm with you, puzzled. We are armed here, and have our weapons in lock boxes that cannot be opened unless you know the push-button combination. Our purpose is to defend our family.

By the way, Ben Franklin put it succinctly when he said that those who would give up freedom for security deserve neither! (Sorry about not having the quote on hand and having to paraphrase.)

Oh, and Richard, I am thrilled that you want to hurl abuse at me but didn't! I can't tell you how happy I am to have found a place where I feel safe about voicing my opinons.

Margarita

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Cara
Date: 17 May 99 - 12:55 PM

I'd like to lend my name to the scolding of Alex, who was way out of line.

But I do agree with his stance (not about Tucker, but just about being crazily, rabidly anti-gun. This is my hot-button issue. The rights of a few to have their little toys does NOT supercede the rights of the rest of us to have a safe society. I cannot believe that this isn't evident to everyone in the U.S. The commmon denominator for most people who kill other people is...GUNS. People with guns kill people. It stands to reason that without guns, this wouldn't be such a problem. If everyone who felt so threatened by their fellow man went out and did something to improve society, to ease the problems that drive people to violence, instead of lurking around their houses stroking their muzzles and whatnot, perhaps they wouldn't "need" their guns so much. "If guns are outlawed. only outlaws will have guns"--I say that sounds excellent, then we will know who the hell those lunatics are and they can be stopped. It would make law enforcement a lot easier.

The steps taken in the U.K. in the aftermath of Dunblane seem eminently sensible to me. I am frustrated and unhappy that the U.S. hasn't followed suit.

I don't understand why people support the NRA, which has proven itself to be absolutely bonkers in my opinion. No child safety locks? No background checks? No waiting period? No law that prevents the purchase of more than one gun per month? The NRA's objection to any and all restriction is lunacy. They think anyone who can drag themselves to the counter or car trunk should be able to own a weapon of destruction. My blood pressure rises contemplating it.

The trend toward a libertarian, individual rights supreme over everything view scares me silly. People need to think big, on a community level. People who aren't part of the solution are a part of the problem.

Cara, who-learned-from-my-family-how-to-vehemently-disagree-with-someone-and-still-like-them

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 May 99 - 11:32 AM

I've been shot at and I've shot over the head of an ex who was beating my dog. I have only an old single shot .22 that was my dad's and that I have not shot in target practice in over 16 years. Sold the few guns we did have when we moved East. I have no desire to have guns in my house. Curiously enough, I felt safer in New England, where the laws are more strict about guns, than I do back here in Wyoming where a lot of people carry guns in their racks in their trucks. A lot of the people I know who do carry seem to be out to prove a point, have hair trigger tempers, and hunting season rarely goes by without one of them accidentally killing the other.

I am liberal, a pacifist, I like President Clinton and a lot of other people in our government, which after all is made up of American people, just like the rest of us.

I don't believe in censorship, killing animals, prejudice. I believe in trying to "walk in balance".

For more on where I am coming from and how I feel about the techno-perversions called guns, these days, please see this in another thread: click here

Thank you.

Katlaughing, trying to strike a balance in this thread,without offending

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Jon W.
Date: 17 May 99 - 10:59 AM

My vote of support for the right to bear arms: I believe there are two prices for freedom here in the USA: One is blood, the down payment of which was made during the Revolutionary War and installments from time to time thereafter. Unfortunately many of these installment payments come at the price of innocent people. We should do everything in our power, SHORT OF CURTAILING THE RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS, to eliminate those unnecessary blood payments.

The second price we pay for freedom is self-control. I love the lines of America The Beautiful: "America, America, God mend thine every flaw/Confirm thy soul in self-control/Thy liberty in law." Would to God that could be done in this generation. If we truly had the amount of self-control necessary to maintain freedom, we would not need to worry about government control.

To clarify where I'm coming from, I have done only a little shooting, almost all of it at Scout camps under the supervision of a competent (NRA-certified) firearms safety expert. The only gun I have in my home was received quite unexpectedly upon the death of my mother-in-law when we cleaned out her home (my wife being the heir). I've handled it rarely and never used it.

PS to Sam Hudson - I have never before heard that Switzerland had a problem with gun-related crime, although I know the Swiss are very well armed. If you can link me to a source confirming that statement, I would appreciate it.

Jon W.

Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: annamill
Date: 17 May 99 - 10:53 AM

Hi,

I'm only here because my name is Anna, and my honey is Glenn. I don't want anyone to think annieglenn is me.

How I feel about guns.... to me it's very purplexing. For years I've heard a lot of arguments for and against the selling and owning of guns. I have friends who have guns for hunting (I don't know anyone who has a gun for any other reason) and I have friends who don't have guns and hate the thought of them. I don't have a gun now and never will, but I enjoy skeet and I enjoy hunting. So... I don't know.

Annap