Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee

Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 08:09 AM

Exlnt point Amos. I would not want to sing this line at a Jewish social and hence anywhere else. It is no big point on the great scale of things but a point that some of us are making.

L in C

Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee
From: Amos
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 11:26 PM

I think the expression "as rich as any Jew" is not exactly racist but   is part of an economic, not racial, stereo-typing. That makes it no less humane and no less palatable socially. But the ancient stereotypes of the Merchant of Venice --unfair and bigoted though they were--are a genuine part of the context of the song. And it should also be stressed that the song in itself is about extremely humane impulses and attitudes, and the line in question is essentially merely accidental to its main narrative.

A

Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee
From: Gurney
Date: 29 Nov 09 - 06:57 PM

Thanks for the response, Kitty. It seems to me that your wince is a conditioned response, too.
I am possibly a generation older than you, my father fought in WWII, and most younger people seem to me to be conditioned in different ways to me. When I was young, Negros were niggers, we had jocks and micks and wogs and wops and dagos and chinks, and when I came here to NZ I was called a pom. Except by Maoris, who called me a Pakeha. All considered horribly insulting, now, except Pakeha. They were only very mildly insulting in years gone by.
People are raised mealy-mouthed nowadays. I can't see how implying Jews become financially successful is in any way insulting. Must be a generation thing.
I don't sing the song, but I would if I wanted to.

Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 29 Nov 09 - 05:58 PM

That should have been Warsaw ghetto, but War war might have been a Freudian interpretation....?

Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 29 Nov 09 - 05:56 PM

Re Gurney's post of 27 Nov at 1.23...

I can usually take a joke, but I never knew my maternal grandparents.. they were impoverished Jews who moved from Poland to Germany after the 1st World War to avoid pogroms, but ended up in the Warwaw ghetto (grandfather) and a death camp (grandmother), so the "Rich as any Jew" line made me wince, and the apparently conditioned audience response did too.

Kitty

Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee
From: GUEST,Bruce Michael Baillie
Date: 29 Nov 09 - 03:19 PM

Hey Les in Chorlton. You may not have noticed it yet but in the non music section is a thread about whether jokes about dyslexia are offensive? I didn't see your name in there but I'm sure you'll find something in it to make you full of righteous indignation?

Enjoy!

Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 29 Nov 09 - 09:58 AM

Jim

"Only joking though aren't I?"

It's a question not a statement........... isn't it?

L in C

Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Nov 09 - 09:45 AM

"Only joking though aren't I?"
Why?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 29 Nov 09 - 06:44 AM

Bruce Michael Baillie?

I guess anybody with such a stupid half *rsed name would be used to confusing abuse with humour wouldn't they?

So do what jennyr suggests and ...........................

Only joking though aren't I?

L in C
Clearly in a short tempered state of mindlessness

Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee
From: jennyr
Date: 29 Nov 09 - 04:21 AM

Suibhne, thank you for starting this thread - I have found a lot of the comments really helpful in clarifying my own thoughts about how to approach songs which don't agree with my political ideology.

May I suggest that the minority who have posted to say that they don't find the discussion interesting go and read something else instead?

Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee
From: GUEST,Bruce Michael Baillie
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 03:59 PM

...I tell you what, why don't we all just listen to people like you and ban humour altogether and then no-one can get offended about anything. You mean to tell me you actually left a club early because someone sang an old song (written in a time when people had very different ways of looking at things to what they do today)I quite honestly suggest you grow up and don't take life as seriously as you obviously are doing. A wry comment about someones race doesn't neccesarily make someone a racist, It used to be called a sense of humour, something the folk scene used to be remarkably good at.
Not anymore I suppose with people like you sifting meticulously through the words of old songs for any hint of un political correctness so they can be justifiably offended and damn anyone foolish enough to dare sing them.
And to think a few years ago the folkies used to laugh at the idea of people like Vaughan Williams changing the words of old folk songs so as not to upset Victorian sensibilities!
...Not a lot has changed has it?

Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 06:01 PM

Ronnie Drew, was a gentleman, he gave me a fiver once[no not a bunch of fives] when I was busking in Cork City.
he was rich, and rich in spirit.RIP.

Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 05:42 PM

"silly stereo types" - aren't they those people who get obsessed with fussing around with their expensive hi-fi systems?

Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 02:41 PM

It's actually Michael...

Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee
From: Gurney
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 02:40 PM

Sorry, Matthew. I hadn't taken in the significance of the name in your signed post. Sometimes I read too fast.

Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 02:38 AM

Mind you — *definition*, as we all know, is the bugbear of Catters when it comes to Folk — &, to introduce a new wrinkle, in a way when it comes to Jews too. My family were, & quite a prominent family in the Community too - my grandfather founded, & my father succeeded as editor, the only Yiddish daily paper in London. But I have been an atheist since about 15, except for trying Baptism·&·Confirmation to Anglicanism in early middle-age, when crises notoriously occur. But, as my late wife [who was Anglican from birth] said, it never really took, & after a few years I reverted to my default position of absolute Atheism. Still, one's genes are one's genes — so whether I am, by definition, qualified to respond to Gurney's post 2 back, is perhaps not for me to say.

Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 01:32 AM

You have just had mine, Gurney, on the 'sense of humour' get-out of the interrupters. As to the line: one must keep a historical perspective; it's the way people used to think & say. I had my say some time back about Jane Austen putting a similar line into the mouth of a particularly stupid & disagreeable charachter in 'Northanger Abbey' [7 Aug, 10.17 pm.

Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee
From: Gurney
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 01:23 AM

On the theme of members of the audience taking funny attitudes: One big young bloke threatened me for singing 'D-Day Dodgers.' Said it was insulting to his dad who was in the 8th Army during the war.

He was too big and too angry to treat with the contempt he deserved, so I explained carefully.

I still want to hear a Jewish take on the line. No-one out there?

Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 02:58 AM

Good point -

L in C

Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 01:24 PM

... indeed, L i C — & I sense a lot of ill-will masquerading behind a smokescreen, or leaving a backdoor of escape, of "Can't you take a joke?"

Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 01:00 PM

It smells of silly stereo types and I don't find it funny.

And I like a joke

L in C

Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 12:23 PM

I discussed this with a (non-folky) Jewish friend and he said that, had he been there, he would have joined in with the "Oyvay!"

It's not racist or malicious; it's the humour of the stereotype, like jokes about blondes and banjo players.

Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 10:43 AM

I `ad that Julian in my cab the other day. `e`s the one that`s got that poncy `airdressers on the Bayswater Road but `e does like `is folk music, for all that. I could see `e was a bit tearful, `is mascara `ad run right down to `is top lip.
I said, "What`s up Jules? You look like you just `eard Lord Rumba was going straight"
`e said, " Oh Jim. It`s worse than that.I sung an Irish song in the folk club last night and they all sung the chorus that quite put me off my stroke, they did. I came over all offended."
I said, " I thought that was the idea at a sing along. What did they sing then?".
`e said, " Fine Girl You Are"!!!"

Whaddam I Like??

Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 07:10 PM

"Where do you stop drawing the line?"
Unless you draw a line anything is permissable - as far as I'm concerned racism in any form is a line you don't step over - there are 6,000,000 reasons why if you've got a minute.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 06:24 PM

Being a woman is a lifestyle choice?

Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 02:45 PM

as rich as Ronnie Drew,I like that.,that is brilliant.

Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 01:57 PM

For example will German children grow up ignorant of the fact that the swatika (not allowed to be used in Germany today) was emblazoned on WW2 aircraft? (black belt...)

Of course, the swastika is allowed to be shown (the Horst Wessel song allowed to be sung) in films, or theater plays about the Nazi time. It would be allowed in history lessons in school. It is also allowed to use the swastika in a context which makes clear that it is used as part of criticism of Nazi thinking.

So for instance when neo-Nazis reported their opponents to the police for using a crossed-out swastika (or, in another cartoon, a swastika being thrown into a garbage bin) as a symbol against neo-Nazis, they (the neo-Nazis) had no success.

Forbidden are some songs and symbols only when used for endorsing the thinking historically related to them.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 01:03 PM

Bullshit. All the things you mention there are very much lifestyle choices. We're talking here about racial slurs here, not the risk of offending the prissy sensibilities of pacifists, vegetarians & the like.

Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 12:53 PM

Leadfingers, the handwringers have taken over.

Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee
From: Leadfingers
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 12:37 PM

So the ENTIRE folk world stops IMMEDIATELY singing ANY song that might offend ANYBODY - How many Traditional songs does THAT leave us with ???
"I am a Staunch republican , so NO songs about The Nobility , especially Kings and Queens"

"I'm a Vegan so NO songs mentioning Meat , Eggs , Milk or Cheese!"

"I am an Amimal Lover , so NO songs about Hunting or Whaling"

"I am a Pacifist , so NO songs about Wars"

"I am a VERY serious Naturist , so NO songs about Tailors or Clothing"

"I am a TeeTotaller , so no songs about beer or wine!"

"I am a Mysoginist , so no songs about the delights of women"

Where do you stop drawing the line ?

Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee
From: GUEST,Black Belt Caterpillar Wrestler
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 07:53 AM

At Saddleworth rushcart, yesterday, I heard an intersting variation.

"As rich as Ronnie Drew".

Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee
From: GUEST,John Hartford
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 04:23 AM

hi

I agree...who was it that once said the Britain and America are two great nations divided by a single language???...lol

cheers

john

Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 03:53 AM

"It's a song."
So is The Horst Wessel song - do   likewise
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee
From: GUEST,Bruce Michael Baillie
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 05:54 PM

Oh grow up for fucks sake! It's a song. Get over yourself!

Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 02:33 PM

""Mawkish Tripe" sums it up perfectly...."
Absolutely - the Scots refer to such songs as 'Kail yaird' poetry.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 10:33 AM

Isn't it actually a gentle take-off of that very mawkishness?

Perhaps it's not just the other side of the Atlantic that people sometimes have problems with irony...

Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee
From: Gedi
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 08:50 AM

"I hate the fecking song anyway; one of the draw-backs of living in Lancashire is having to wade the depths of mawkish tripe like this which is sung with great relish (however so innocent the racism) in folk clubs the county over."

Well said, Sweeney. This song makes me cringe every time I hear it, and not just because of the mention of Jews in such a fashion. "Mawkish Tripe" sums it up perfectly....

Ged

Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee
From: Peace
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 09:24 PM

Songs that have outlived their 'charm' often just go away. Perhaps that's a good thing. I can't see anyone on this thread being a Stalinist or a Stalin for that matter.

Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 09:30 AM

I don't agree with Stalinist airbrushing of history either, but I'm b####red if I can see who's been advocating it here.

Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee
From: Acorn4
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 08:58 AM

Racist attitudes were undoubtedly implicit if not explicit in quite a few old songs, and fortunately we've moved on to a more enlightened attitude with each generation.

I don't, however agree with the "Stalinist airbrushing" of history that one or two people seem to be advocating here.

Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee
From: GUEST,Black belt caterpillar wretler
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 08:19 AM

They may not have said so but it is obvious thay they do.

When a song is written it reflects the world as seen by the writer in his/her own view and vocabulary.

That world view may not be acceptable to another person at another time.

Or even the same time.

Do we deny history or remove the evidence? For example will German children grow up ignorant of the fact that the swatika (not allowed to be used in Germany today) was emblazoned on WW2 aircraft?

Can you offend by omission?

Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 02:46 AM

If you find the old songs offensive

Has anyone, on this thread or anywhere else, said they "find the old songs offensive"?

Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee
From: Peace
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 12:40 AM

KYSSAN MIN AERS

I find that offensive. It's very old. Age does not itself bestow either respectability or right. Sometimes songs outlive their usefulness. No offense.

Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee
From: fumblefingers
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 11:37 PM

You can't change history. If you find the old songs offensive, start or join a politically correct, revisionist, purer than thou folk club. And don't read The Merchant of Venice.

Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 11:07 AM

"He did however get barracked for singing a song "I Hate Wogs" by Eric Bogle"
Can anybody verify the story of Eric Bogle being popped in the mouth by an irate audience member for singing this?
"It's the perpetuation of one of the most persistent stereotypes in history,"
I agree with S O'P - first time for everything!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 09:32 AM

The 'Rich as any Jew' is hardly Anti-Semitic ,

It's the perpetuation of one of the most persistent stereotypes in history, one that has resulted in the deaths of millions. In what way is that not Anti-Semitic?

Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee
From: Leadfingers
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 09:20 AM

Sean - The 'Rich as any Jew' is hardly Anti-Semitic , though the Oy Vey chant is decidedly Impolite to say the least

Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 08:33 AM

My great-(great?)-grandfather was an Irish tailor who upon arrival in Newcastle set up shop on the Castle Garth Stairs, noted in the Traditional Tyneside song A U Hinny Bird for an associated with the trade:

The quayside for sailors - A U Hinney Bird
The castle garth for tailors - A U A
The Gateshead hills for millers - A U Hinney Bird
The north shore for keelers - A U A

The old shop fronts are still there...

Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 08:18 AM

Is it a coincidence that most somgs about tailers put them down as thieves, scalywags or fools and that tailering was principaly a jewish trade in the nieteenth and early twentieth century

Most songs about tailors are older than that and don't come from the places (particularly London) where tailoring was a Jewish occupation.

The usual stereotype you get about tailors is that they weren't very masculine, compared with ploughmen or sailors. Maybe the stereotype expressed an inchoate form of homophobia, but not anti-Semitism.

Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism : A Mon Like Thee
From: GUEST,folk1e
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 06:50 AM

I am not Jewish myself, but I am fat, follicly challenged and visually impaired, so am not totally oblivious to derogatory stereotyping!
Whilst overt racially based derogatory statements are obviously wrong I feel that we are getting into a silly situation where any implied slight to any race, colour or creed is met with a backlash that is more damaging than the original act!

A gun is just a gun. It only becomes a weapon of evil when somebody uses it as such! How the gun is used becomes the important issue, not what type and model the gun is. I think it is the same with songs. Overt editing of our songs will not only sanitize them out of all recognition, but will prevent anyone from appreciating the context they were written in!
I don't hear anybody (sensibly) saying we should edit out all the racist speeches made throughout history because we disagree with the sentiments expressed.

I have been sitting in my local folk club when "A Mon Like Thee" has been performed (with the "rich as any Jew" line in). At least one member of the audience was Jewish, but he took no offense!
He did however get barracked for singing a song "I Hate Wogs" by Eric Bogle (the song is an anti-racist song) merely because people were unable to look beyond the racist words to see the meaning of the song!