BS: Is Google getting political ?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 04:12 AM

Here's what the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament have to say about how the disarmament symbol has been used abroad and in other contexts:

"The Disarmament Symbol goes global
This "CND logo" was not however confined to these shores. The "peace symbol", as it is usually dubbed outside Britain, was first brought over to the United States by Bayard Rustin, a key figure in the civil rights movement of the 1960s and a protestor at the 1958 Aldermaston march. Consequently, the symbol was used in civil rights marches and later spread to anti-Vietnam War demonstrations. Since then it has appeared around the world not only as a sign for nuclear disarmament but also as the international hallmark of peace." [...]
"The Freedom of the Peace Symbol
[example of an advert using CND symbol was here]
Although specifically designed for the anti-nuclear movement it has quite deliberately never been copyrighted. No one has to pay or to seek permission before they use it. A symbol of freedom, it is free for all. This of course sometimes leads to its use, or misuse, in circumstances that CND and the peace movement find distasteful. It is also often exploited for commercial, advertising or general fashion purposes. We can't stop this happening and have no intention of copyrighting it. All we can do is to ask commercial users if they would like to make a donation. Any money received is used for CND's peace education and information work."

In response to a message below, I find it dissapointing somewhat that the CND logo has been diluted to more general terms. I find it dissapointing as I clearly remember when growing up in the Eighties the stand that the women at Greenham Common made against Cruise Missiles being stationed there (I believe this camp was the longest lasting in the world). The CND logo really meant something very specific in campaign terms, and people made vast efforts in campaigning against nukes (Greenham Common Peace Camp), it really wasn't just a token general 'symbol' and it still does mean something very strident to me.

I thought it interesting however that CND have chosen not to copywrite their logo, and have intentionally left it to be used by anyone who wishes to.
SO at the end of the day, I guess the choice was made by CND themselves to freely allow the disarmament logo to be used outside of their specific nuclear disarmament agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 03:56 AM

I am not comfortable with MtheGM speaking for virtually the entire british nation possibly including me - indeed he hints that much of Europe agrees with his viewpoint -

"50,000,000 people in this country, and who knows how many more in the rest of Europe, view it differently"

As someone who on his own admission was heavily involved in the CND movement his viewpoint is undoubtedly coloured by his experience

Things change and a great deal of time has passed since the symbol first appeared - as artbrooks suggests there will undoubtedly be many who have grown up since who know nothing of these origins

I accept that I can no longer tell people that I am feeling gay without conveying a false impression. MtheGM accepts that the semaphore signalling system is different now than it was when he was in the scouts. I also accept that the CND symbol has taken on a far greater meaning than it originally had and I would have thought that the originators would be PROUD that it has.

if 50,000,000 people agree with MtheGM let them or some of them join this thread and support the argument because at the moment all we can say for sure is that 3 people think that way and one of those seems prepared to accept that it has changed. "Clearly that was here and then. The symbol means something more general and apolitical now, throughout the rest of the world at any rate."

In the meantime this is one Brit who is quite comfortable (and proud) that the people of this land have created a worldwide symbol of peace however it originated

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 03:20 AM

Why, Ebbie: I think you should simply adjust to the fact that this sign under consideration was political in origin and retains such overtones to some; rather than denouncing this fact as, in some way I can't quite fathom, patronising to you and hence 'a load of fucking crap' [Kat]; or as not what 'most people' think [Jeri]. What else has ever been implied?

Google's Philosophy statement in their Culture segment runs in part:—

===Google's founders have often stated that the company is not serious about anything but search... Google puts users first when it comes to our online service===

I would interpret that as an intent of impartiality, wouldn't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: GUEST,Ebbie, away from home, house/dog sitting
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 01:54 AM

OK. What do you think we should do about it, Mike? Given that we obviously don't have the visceral   response to the issue that you and some others do, what would you like us to do? Or say? Would you like us to apologize? Would it suffice if we apologized for the insensitivity and ignorance of Google? I don't happen to be a s Google stockholder so I doubt that my opinion would count for much.

Incidentally, you have said or implied several times that Google is an "impartial" entity. Who says? Do they specifically say so?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 12:35 AM

Dear Kat, What's with this 'virtual pat on the head'? Why are you & Ebbie & Jeri having so much difficulty coming to terms with the fact that the way you view things over there are not always identical to the way we do over here [or, to accommodate artbrooks' last query, some of the older among us do]; and then, when this is pointed out to you, falling back [as you are doing here] with accusations that you are being patronised? Nobody is trying to patronise you; there are no 'virtual pats on the head' involved: we are just trying to point out that yours is not the only world-view in existence. But, oh dear me, that won't do! 'What a bunch of fucking crap,' you exclaim [if anyone doesn't believe me, just scroll up two to Kat's last post'.

So who, pray, is patronising whom? Who is virtually patting whom on the head. What a bunch of fucking crap right back 2U, Kat.

HNY just the same - Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: artbrooks
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 07:22 PM

I'd be interested in knowing if that symbol has the same restricted meaning to the adolescent and adult grandchildren of those who are so concerned by its "misuse" on this side of the ocean.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 07:03 PM

"Innocents, vanilla, bland"...how mature and great technique. Does that come with a virtual pat on the head?

What a bunch of fucking crap. Murray, I echo Spaw...luvyadarlin', but really!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 06:43 PM

My mistake... Eudora provided a WAY to remove it and substitute something else.

hmmm.. I distinctly remembered my version being changed.


But while Googling, I found this:
"I place this action in the same category as those Southern Baptists who
objected to the Unix checking software called "Satan" and caused a version
to be distributed renamed "Santa" - "
----------------------------------------------------------------------



(I know, Mike, this is different from your specific concerns. It is just one more illustration, to me, of the difficulties of navigating the complexities of political/cultural/religious references.)

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 06:32 PM

Well, the image has disappeared, except for this archive.

In context, it sure seems like it was not intended to be political. I wonder if Google knows it was seen that way by so many? I wonder what they will do next year?

In a world so polarized and divided, it is hard to avoid upsetting, offending or 'bothering' to some degree various factions.

[Just remembered that years ago, the Eudora email program used to use a rotating ☯ (Yin-Yang) symbol when waiting for mail. Some religious group... (Buddhist, I think) complained that it 'had deeper significance', and Eudora removed it.]

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 05:11 PM

Jeri - it still means the same here. If it didn't the OP would not even have started this thread, would he? But, since you persist in denying that it can still mean the same to us as it always did — though we are here to tell you that it does, and you are not — I still wonder what you can possibly have meant, within that context, by 'most people', if not that only American opinion counts IYO.

Nobody is 'offended', I repeat, Ebbie; there are just some who feel that a supposedly impartial forum-provider is acting inappropriately in using an explicitly political symbol as a logo. You say you now realise it has an explicitly political history, but still appear to be denying the implications of this.

If Google is a commercial enterprise, is it not being a little unwise in acting in a fashion liable to alienate, or at least give pause to [as it clearly has done - hence, I repeat, this thread] a substantial segment of its clientele?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: GUEST,Ebbie, away from home, house/dog sitting
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 04:52 PM

I don't feel heated in the least, Mike. But I will continue to point out that Google is not a governmental body or taxpayer-supported and has its roots in the US. As such, it is probably as "innocent" (read 'naive') as we. And is entitled to it own opinions. Google, as Susan pointed out, is a commercial enterprise. I'm sure that if it were aware of the sordid history of a peace symbol it would desist. :)

And if the display of the CND/Peace symbol is not "offensive", why is anyone offended?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Jeri
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 04:49 PM

Why would you assume I meant Americans by 'most people'? You say the symbol has a history. I'm not arguing about that. I just don't think it means the same as it used to.

As an aside, there are 'swastikas' all over South Korea--they mark Buddhist temples. (Sort of freaked me out when I first saw them, until someone explained to me.)

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 04:32 PM

'Offensive'/'offended' - used in last two posts: not quite the right word[s]. Let me draw your attention again to the title of this thread, which the OP chose to give it. The only point I have been making thruout is that the symbol under discussion has a specific history, having originated in what was unarguably a political statement — that the UK should unilaterally disarm itself of all nuclear weapons. Whether or not one agrees with that position or not [I did at first but developed doubts as to its viability later], it is a political statement. The fact that the symbol was later adapted for other purposes does not alter the fact of its original meaning. But a whole lot of the replies from the US were predicated on the suggestion that, because they didn't know that, it couldn't be the case; or if it was it didn't matter anyhow because only what Americans think matters [how else is one to interpret Jeri's 'Most people', for example?] — an odd sort of confused, illogical, being in denial as to the facts of the case. No point saying OK! OK! to me, my dears: I am not getting heated. But some of you seem to be getting a bit agitated at having unwelcome facts drawn to your attention — going into denial, I say again, aren't you?...

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: GUEST,Ebbie, away from home, house/dog sitting
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 04:09 PM

OK, OK, MtheGM!

HOWEVER. None of you has told us what is actually so offensive about the no-nukes symbol.

After I asked - but NOT in response to my question - someone did remark on the unacceptable 'UNILATERAL' nature of the CND effort.

Incidentally I take umbrage at the "vanilla" label. To me, the symbol is a powerful reminder of what we are all on about.

It is very true that we in the US have been most fortunate in not having to face war in our homeland in our memory but that is not something AGAINST us. May YOU be so lucky. And if that be vanilla..

Backatcha, jack.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Jeri
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 04:01 PM

I know there's another point of view. I simply don't believe it's significant to the vast majority of Google users, whether they're in this thread or simply not complaining about the 'peace' part of the logo. You certainly have a right to be enjoy being offended by anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 03:43 PM

Yes, Ebbie. But now that you have been made aware, you seem to be digging yourself behind a 'don't care if it was, so pooh·2·U' wall of subjective self-regarding inward-looking insouciance. You guys over there can think what you like, and Jeri can go on insisting that 'most people' view it as you lot over there do. But now you know that 50,000,000 people in this country, and who knows how many more in the rest of Europe, view it differently, how can you still persist in denying the possibility of another POV? And do you think that Google [who are the predominant provider in this country as well, you know] shouldn't have known the origin — it is their business to know such things, isn't it?

[BTW we didn't even do Halloween & pumpkins & trick-or-treat and all that bollox till the last few years when your pernicious commercialised influence caught on. It was certainly never part of my childhood.]

So there right back 2U -
; ~)§

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: GUEST,Ebbie, away from home, house/dog sitting
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 12:42 PM

It may not be more applicable to lambast us 'innocent Yanks' for not being aware or observant of the symbol's original meaning than it would be to berate us for not acknowledging or celebrating the 'original' meaning of the various aspects and icons of Hallowe'en. So there. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 12:01 PM

"I can only say that, if you over there persist in regarding this as just a symbol without known origin or meaning..."


gee... *I* was just trying to help last night by acknowledging real origins that I had not known about before.....while trying to put in perspective what it has become. I'm not sure if I'm supposed to feel guilty now for not 'knowing' earlier.

I marched in Washington DC in a couple of the huge war protests, and wore buttons with that symbol on them, and in those crowds of hundreds of thousands, I doubt there were many who were aware of CND origins. I guess the ocean was much wider then, without the WWW to keep us colonials informed. *wry smile"

I will now retire to the far corner and try on my hair shirt..... ☺

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: goatfell
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 10:34 AM

aye it is

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 10:00 AM

The "peace symbol" as it's currently understood in the US is so apolitical that it appears on greeting cards, shopping bags, baby booties, you name it. It has evolved into a secular symbol standing for the same "Peace on Earth, goodwill toward men" sentiments traditionally embodied in more traditional Christian symbols of the season, but without bringing Baby Jesus into the picture.

Such was not always the case even in the US. The symbol made its way to these shores during the Vietnam era and was closely associated with the anti-war movement. It was despised by more hawkish elements of US society as "The Track of the American Chicken". In 1969, walking into certain bars while wearing a piece of clothing emblazoned with a peace sign was a good way to get your ass kicked.

After the Vietnam war ended, the symbol pretty much fell from public view for about twenty years. When it made its reappearance, largely courtesy of the music scene, it no longer carried its former specifically anti-war message. The kids who were wearing it grew up after the war was over. They were not protesting against a war, but making a statement in favor of a more peaceful, sustainable lifestyle. It's in that light that most Americans view the symbol today. Yes, it's a statement of ideals, but those ideals don't necessarily have anything to do with politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 09:31 AM

Thank you indeed. And the like to you.

Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 09:20 AM

the opportunity for the German army to confuse

"Take Cover"

with

"Take Dover"

would appear significant !! :-)

MtheGM I wish you a happy and peaceful new year

Rafflesbear

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 09:09 AM

That, I admit, is indeed how I find it as I have just googled it.

But that was not, as I recall it, how it was when I passed 'signalling 2nd class badge' in Boy Scouts in 1944: when, to my recollection, A was down left, B horizontal left, C vertical left, D vertical right &c. Perhaps it has been modified. Certainly that must still have been how it was, when ex-Major George Parker suggested the design of the badge based on it to his colleague Peter Cadogan, one of original CND founders, in the staffroom at Chesterton School Cambridge in 1957 when CND was founded; when I was Head of English in that school, 1966-68, George Parker himself told me the tale [though Peter C had left by then & was fully employed by CND & Committee of 100, though his wife Joyce still taught Music]. The upstroke on that old system therefore did for the C & the D, while the N was the two down-at-acute-angle arms as still the case.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: artbrooks
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 08:52 AM

Not to be pedantic (oh heck, admit it, Brooks - you LOVE being pedantic), but what happened to that signaler's right arm - the one that is supposed to be up at a 45° angle?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 08:49 AM

am I missing something?

every point of reference I can find shows C as I described it

looking from the front

/   =A down and to the left
-   =B horizontal to the left
\   =C up and to the left
!   =D vertically up

all with left hand pointing to the floor = downstroke

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 08:06 AM

The upstroke is the C — do a semaphore C for yourself & you will find your left arm is vertical.

Oddly enough, I wasn't 'there' in the 60s - in the sense that, just married [Mar 59], establishing self in new career as teacher [Sep 58 ···], leaving London for Cambridge for my wife's 'mature scholar' education [62], I was inactive in folk & in the hippy thing [for which I was a bit old being by then in my 30s] & all the other manifestations of '60s culture': becoming a freelance critic — theatre {for The Guardian] and folk-music [for The Times] — as well as a teacher at end of 1969 [first reviews in both papers appeared in same week in Oct 69].

So forget the 60s — I can remember the 30s, Sonny-Jim: lived right thru WWii in 40s; National Service officer, University, & career-launch thru 50s — so as the [alas deceased] lady said to you: Dont·Come·The·Cowboy·With·Me...]

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 07:10 AM

"The symbol is based on the semaphore positions for the letters CND. Don't lecture me about it, please"

by the way - the semaphore position for C is a diagonal from middle to top left - notably absent

perhaps we can put this down to the old saying "if you can remember the sixties you weren't there" and therefore proof positive that MtheGM WAS there :)

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 07:03 AM

On what evidence? Expound your logic please, Rafflesbear. I don't follow. --

Intent is not all — there could well be political overtone without intent — indeed, does not this thread demonstrate such to be the case here?

I can only say that, if you over there persist in regarding this as just a symbol without known origin or meaning or arrière-pensée intent, then you wilfully reveal yourselves as nothing but a bunch of innocent Yankee·Doodle noodles after all.

Macaroni! - Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 06:53 AM

just type PEACE into google images

on that evidence alone there is no political intent - nor did they go down the rocky religious route

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 05:05 AM

If it gets Brown out - good news!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 04:48 AM

For anyone interested, the major story of the time was the women's peace camp at Greenham Common

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 04:41 AM

"The symbol almost at once crossed the Atlantic. [..] Simpler to draw than the Picasso peace dove, it became known, first in the US and then round the world as the peace symbol."

How interesting - I did not know that it had become adopted as a universal 'peace' symbol internationally!

When I was growing up CND (among middle-Englanders) was considered quite a radical and militant organisation. And my guess is that the overwhelming majority of members at that time were pretty left-wing.

Clearly that was here and then. The symbol means something more general and apolitical now, throughout the rest of the world at any rate.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 09:17 PM

Unbelievable...........Is this a "fight" over a symbol of peace? LMAO.....Only at the 'Cat.

There is no doubt to the origin but maybe we all need to take a detour to the CND Website and note they use it on the cover of their "PEACE Education Pack" as you can see. Now read the paragraph at the top. The first sentence really........It says(emphasis mine):

"CND Peace Education aims to empower young people with knowledge on peace and nuclear issues and support them in making their own decisions. Activities are all based on co-operative and active learning."

To help you a bit more if you choose not to go deeper on their sight, it also says, regarding the symbol history:

"The symbol almost at once crossed the Atlantic. Bayard Rustin, a close associate of Martin Luther King had come over from the US in order to take part in that first Aldermaston March. He took the symbol back to the United States where it was used on civil rights marches. Later it appeared on anti-Vietnam War demonstrations and was even seen daubed in protest on their helmets by American GIs. Simpler to draw than the Picasso peace dove, it became known, first in the US and then round the world as the peace symbol. It appeared on the walls of Prague when the Soviet tanks invaded in 1968, on the Berlin Wall, in Sarajevo and Belgrade, on the graves of the victims of military dictators from the Greek Colonels to the Argentinian junta, and most recently in East Timor.

I have to believe, based on that and the season and the other postcards GOOGLE used as the days went along, that it was simply another way to say "Peace On Earth"..........perhaps to a passing alien spaceship or whatever. I can't see how that is too political or at least it isn't blatantly so to my limited mind. Now if they had said "Kill All the Fuckin' Jews" or "Hang the Niggers" I would definitely have a problem as I would hope to believe the rest of you would as well.

........geeziz..............

Murray old friend, I love ya' and may I wish you a Merry Christmas or a Happy Holiday or even a Sloppy Easter Egg? Whatever you want I also send my wishes for peace in wherever and whenever through whatever!


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 07:14 PM

Google is, above all things, commercial. Whatever they feel will advance their bottom line, that's what they will go with. If anyone thought otherwise, they just bought into the last "stance" Google portrayed.

Biz is biz is biz. It's as true of newer startups as it is true nowadays of older, "trusted" brands-- biz is biz is biz.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 07:13 PM

Don, I fail to see what you are getting your knickers in a twist about.

Everybody would love to see a world free of nuclear weapons, but unilateral disarmament, which is what CND is all about, is a contentious platform, and whether you, I, or anybody else agree or disagree with that particular stance is irrelevant. The fact remains, it is a contentious viewpoint.

I drew attention to the fact that Google had, as I thought at the time, made just such a contentious political statement. If they had used a dove of peace symbol, I would have thought no more of it. I am now satisfied that they were in fact not making a political statement, they were simply the victims of their own lack of in-depth knowledge.

If you do not see that it might not be entirely appropriate for Google, Microsoft, AOL, YouTube, Sky TV, or any other globally accessed interface to openly advertise a contentious political stance, then I am afraid I cannot explain further.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 06:58 PM

The Eighties were the major era for CND work - the cruise missiles were the big issue then.

I've never really thought about it, but clearly different continents have different movements - which is why I think CND is 'classic' but folks your way might never have heard of them!

So, what's the US's equivalent of CND? There must be an organisation like it.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 06:50 PM

""There are however, many thousands, if not millions of people alive today who, like me, see what you call your "Peace Symbol" as a powerful, and specifically targeted anti-nuclear symbol.""

And the removal of nuclear weapons from the world would not be a significant step toward the attainment of peace worldwide?

Is that your point, or do you have some logical reason for seeing a desire not to be blown to hell as a political stance?

I think, notwithstanding the fact that the originators were left wing, that desire is shared by all shades of the political spectrum, making this a complete non argument to which I shall devote no more of my time.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 06:46 PM

If you had never heard of the acronymn, CS, not surprising at all. Classic or not, it appears to be/have been a UK thing.

Does the heat stem from the suggestion that Britain disarm itself (Does the UK have a stockpile of nuclear weapons?) unilaterally?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 06:41 PM

Oh, I'm 30's & English - so I imagine most anyone of my generation would recognise the same image pretty clearly?

AND quickly, the CND marchers were anything but non-political!!! Yes the CND sign is very political - for good or ill depending on how you feel about it - but what it ain't is fluffy hippy bunny's for huggy peace 'n' stuff.

I expect you'll hear more from those who were in the thick of it all, after the hols!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 06:32 PM

Mmm, rather surprised that anyone misunderstands the classic CND anti-nuclear symbol!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 06:17 PM

If nothing else, I hope that this discussion has proved educational to a few people.

I actually was unaware that the "no-nukes " symbol, which was such a powerful and iconic emblem when first minted , had become watered down across the Atlantic to become the "vanilla Peace Symbol" as MtheGM so aptly describes it. When I see the symbol, it still shouts CND to me. Obviously, that is no longer the case for a large number of people. More's the pity, IMHO.

Your swastika analogy is a red herring, Art, as there is nobody alive today who sees the swastika as anything other than a symbol of Nazism. There are however, many thousands, if not millions of people alive today who, like me, see what you call your "Peace Symbol" as a powerful, and specifically targeted anti-nuclear symbol.

"Two nations, separated by a common symbol" ...

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 06:15 PM

From Wikipedia:

"The Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament (CND) is an organization that advocates unilateral nuclear disarmament by Britain. It also campaigns for international nuclear disarmament and tighter international arms regulation through agreements such as the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. It opposes military action that may result in the use of nuclear, chemical or biological weapons and the building of nuclear power stations in the UK.

"CND was formed in 1957 and since that time has periodically been at the forefront of the peace movement in the United Kingdom. It claims to be Europe's largest single-issue peace campaign. Since 1958, it has organised the Aldermaston March, which is held over the Easter weekend from Trafalgar Square, London, to the Atomic Weapons Establishment near Aldermaston."

Is this what is troublin' you, cousin? I don't know about other Americans but I had never heard of such an organization/project. And since I have no energy invested in the pros and cons of the issue I still don't see any inappropriateness of a private body advocating nuclear disarmament in the cause of peace. If Google were a government (The State of Google), perhaps.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: artbrooks
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 05:29 PM

"Artbrooks copped out"? Oh, not really. I am always interested in historical trivia. However, you are beating a dead horse of your own invention. This discussion is rather analogous of a person saying the ancient Indians (either kind) were really Nazis because they used swastikas in their religious art. What either symbol represented once upon a time to a specific group of people has nothing to do with what it means today. If you don't choose to accept that, it's your issue, not mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 03:52 PM

==Since my comment was pretty much ignored, maybe because it was buried, that symbol doesn't mean anything more than 'peace' to most people==

Define 'most people', Jeri. I don't want to stir things up, but the rest of the world sometimes gets not unirritated by the bland American assumption that what they might think on any topic has to be the opinion of 'most people'. We are a small island, but there are quite a lot of people here too, you know? Europe is a smallish continent, but...   

BillD - you can run a takeover of the symbol to irrelevant websites till you are blue in the face: the fact remains that it is based on the semaphore for the letters CND.

Artbrooks saw reason and copped out. [So did Jeri, but has copped back in again!]

Murray, many thanks for your kind comment of 2.52PM.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 03:16 PM

Murray...since Google has many thousands of techs, it is anyone's guess exactly who designed and OR approved that particular little holiday logo. I'm sure they COULD have done any design,,, *shrug*

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 03:14 PM

☛clever, hmmm?>☚

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 03:13 PM

As the OP, I can assure everybody that I am not in the least "upset" by the appearance of the "no-nukes" symbol.

I do query the appropriateness of such a political statement on Google, just as I would query the appropriateness of such a statement on the home page of AOL or YouTube.

A dove carrying an olive branch flying in tandem with the space shuttle would not have been beyond the creative talents of the Google artists, surely ?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 03:11 PM

I did it in Opera, using this little program

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 03:05 PM

☮ ! ha!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 03:04 PM

Since my comment was pretty much ignored, maybe because it was buried, that symbol doesn't mean anything more than 'peace' to most people.