So do we live to die and comeback ....?

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 05:26 PM

That looks like a pretty cool book, Bill. ;-) Nice picture.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 04:38 PM

nawww, Ebbie...the name on the "Critique" is A.P. Riory, a famous and important part of the flow of philosophic literature for the last couple of hundred years..

(published by "The Neo-Diogenic Society of Kansas"....whose motto is "we are dedicated to truth, understanding, and, whenever it's not too much trouble, the search for an Honest Man")

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 04:31 PM

Nope...that's not how I work, kat...I use 'criteria' for identifying assumptions.....and any criteria I use must themselves be in order and rendered as close to 'linguistically neutral' as I can make them first.

It is entirely possible that you..(and others) came to metaphysics without assumptions and inadvertently missed noticing that you were 'implictly' using unstated assumptions in various places....please understand that what I am saying is that certain claims and conclusions within metaphysics, when stated in certain ways, logically require and imply certain assumptions. It is not a statement about honesty or integrity, but about the very fabric of argument form.

You see what a tangled web this is to debate? It's like trying to make your friends ...or your kids ...understand that criticizing some of their behavior has nothing to do with judging their 'worth' or their motives.

In some of these debates, people pop in briefly, tell you "That's a crock of sh**!", make a few other disparaging remarks, and leave. They get MUCH less respect from me, even though we 'agree' on some things, than those I am debating.

I make an 'assumption'....that you, Amos, Little Hawk...etc, are honest, concerned folks who have had 'experiences' that you are trying to sort out and come to terms with. Why would I wear my poor, dyslexic fingers to the VERY bone..*grin*, debating with idiots who won't even pretend to listen to my side of it? I discuss & debate with folks I respect!...and when I get an inkling that they no longer respect ME, I quit.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 04:22 PM

'Critique of Pure Balderdash' lol Did you write it, Bill?

Just you wait, ma man.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 04:09 PM

I never realised being dead would be so complicated.

I have a feeling I got it right first time. My place will be with the earwigs, slugs, or maybe a mollusc. i wouldn't mind being one of those shellfish that gets stuck to the bottom of the pier. A limpet.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 04:04 PM

If your metaphysics requires lots of non-demonstrable assumptions.

That's a big "IF," Bill. Some of us came to metaphysics with no assumptions...just a desire to learn more about what seemed to be unanswerable questions. Perhaps, because of your background, you are making "assumptions" about metaphysics and thoose of us who believe in them?

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 03:55 PM

(The italics code was fine; the content was as usual ;>)......)

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 03:52 PM

'Wild' Bill D., frantically studying relevant scholarly works in order to answer Little Hawk's abstruse metaphysical peregrinations

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 03:25 PM

I look at every life as a role taken on in a drama...like a stage play. Some roles are more exciting than others. The difference is, though, you have free will to alter the script as you go along, and so does everyone else. That makes it way better than a stage play, but also way more difficult in some respects.

And you can't quit partway through...except by committing suicide, I suppose.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 03:21 PM

Meaning? "White -----"?

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: bobad
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 03:16 PM

In an alternate theory of metaphysics the concept of "soul" can be replaced by that of "blanc mange."

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 02:40 PM

Okay.

Where are all the souls stored?

Sheesh. Gimme a break! I might ask you: Where is all the electricity in the Universe stored? Same answer. Everywhere and nowhere. Souls do NOT take up physical space!

How is the soul of a dead person assigned to another body?

A soul is not exactly assigned to a body. It builds a body, one cell at a time, through normal biological processes after conception, fertilization or whatever is needed has occurred to start off the process. This would be as true of a plant or a jellyfish as it would be of a human being. Life, in the form of spiritual energy, coalesces and builds a body one cell at a time.

Are there a finite number of souls in existence?

No. There are an infinite number of souls in existence, just like there's an infinite amount of potential energy available at all times.

How does the sytem adjust to population growth (ie. are new souls created out of nothing)?

No problem whatsoever. Yes, new souls are indeed created out of what you would term "nothing", but you only call it nothing because you can't see it with your physical eyes. Population growth is of no significance whatsoever in the larger picture (beyond this planet), because there are probably a billion different worlds available on which to reincarnate, not just this one tiny little planet here.


Do other forms of life have souls (including bacteria and viruses)?

Yes, because everything is made of spiritual energy which could be called "soul energy" if you want to call it that. Soul energy is consciousness. More advanced levels of consciousness produce more advanced lifeforms.

If the answer to this question 'yes' are souls exchanged between species as Buddhists believe?

Some buddhists do believe that, and so do some Hindus. It may occur. If so, it would be rather similar to the process of evolution that occurs in the development of physical creatures, which gradually change and evolve into new forms. If that's believable on a physical level, then why not on a soul level? It seems unlikely to me that a highly advanced consciousness like a human would reincarnate as a simple consciousness like an ant...because it's too big a shift. Likewise, it's too big a shift to expect ants to evolve into human beings too, isn't it? But it's not so big a shift to expect apes to evolve slowly into human beings...our science community subscribes to that. I think it is quite probable that spiritual evolution mirrors physical evolution in a number of ways.

If only humans have souls what happened before humans existed and how and when did the re-incarnation 'system' come about?

Humans are NOT the only ones. Everything has a soul. Even a planet or a rock has a soul...but way different from yours or mine.

What happens after the human race (inevitably?) becomes extinct? Will there be lots of 'redundant' souls with nowhere to go?

No big deal. Life will move on and take new forms. Intelligent species will still exist in various place, but they might look very different from us. We would probably reincarnate AS them, in that case. We wouldn't BE "human" any more, and it wouldn't matter in the least.

If there is life elsewhere in the Universe does each inhabited planet have its own self-contained system or can souls be exchanged between planets?

I think souls can probably be exchanged between planets, no problem, but I do think that most souls get accustomed to a certain place and tend to keep coming back to it repeatedly for that reason. They don't HAVE to, but they do.

I can probably think of lots more questions - does anyone have any answers?

Shoot. This is fun. Besides, it drives Bill D wild when I say all this stuff. ;-) I hope I got the darn italics codes right this time.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Amos
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 02:23 PM

The definition of "objective" is a subtle but important issue when it comes to dealing with issues that are in some way transcendental to the normal continuum of objects. Because when you are dealing with this area, objectivity gets wonky. What's "objective" to God? It's a similar issue. Objectivity in Bill's sense is a self-fulfilling premise.

It's paradoxical -- one the one hand you have the self-fulfilling premise of material space time and objects, which by its nature makes "proving" anything outside that real impossible on its own terms. On the other hand you have the self-fulfilling premise that thought and consciousness are in fact where objective frames of reference COME from, and their "plasticity of authorship" makes objectivity an essentially hollow proposition. These two engines, both internally self-consistent and both mutually exclusive, like the battle between the sexes, make for a never-ending carousel ride of circular argument.

"Thought is a byproduct of matter and energy and its nature must be proven in alignment with the fundamental premises of objectivity as experienced in the physical universe."

"The whole framework of space-time is an artifact of perception, which is born from the creative power of the non-material viewpoint that is the true nature of selfhood; therefore the notion of objectivity is just another mock up to try to force the spirit into alignment."

These are poles in an arguing machine which has achieved perpetual motion.


A

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 02:17 PM

If re-incarnation is a fact I have all sorts of awkward questions to ask, Like:

Where are all the souls stored?

How is the soul of a dead person assigned to another body?

Are there a finite number of souls in existence? How does the sytem adjust to population growth (ie. are new souls created out of nothing)?

Do other forms of life have souls (including bacteria and viruses)? If the answer to this question 'yes' are souls exchanged between species as Buddhists believe?

If only humans have souls what happened before humans existed and how and when did the re-incarnation 'system' come about?

What happens after the human race (inevitably?) becomes extinct? Will there be lots of 'redundant' souls with nowhere to go?

If there is life elsewhere in the Universe does each inhabited planet have its own self-contained system or can souls be exchanged between planets?

I can probably think of lots more questions - does anyone have any answers?

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 02:05 PM

Here is where part of us is, Bill. The part that is centered in this physical body, and the part that associates itself consciously only with an ego it built around that temporary physical body.

I don't think that is all of what we are. You do. Therein lies our debate. All paths to enlightenment (and there are many) are concerned with getting past the limited consciousness that identifies itself only with the limitations of the mortal body-mind construct.

Janie, your last post was very well said.

"it can be very important to distinquish between what is belief and what is fact" Absolutely! And we all begin trying to distinguish that at a very young age. I was one of the first kids in my age group, for instance, to decide that the "Santa Claus" story simply had to be mythological, because it didn't jibe at all well with a whole lot of known facts! I was a very logical and observant kid, and have remained so, I can assure you.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Janie
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 02:00 PM

Little Hawk,

Internal experience is subjective. The person with schizophrenia 'hearing' voices telling that person to kill some one or themselves (they are called command hallucinations)experiences those voices as very real and therefore, very compelling. But there is no one telling him to do that. His brain chemistry is out-of-whack and is tricking him.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 01:50 PM

even better! Demons we can comprehend and study. Now, about nomenclature.. ;>)

Little Hawk...you continue to argue as if tautologies and circular definitions demonstrate some truth!

"The Afterlife is testable within the Afterlife" **IS** a claim in which a premise or two are assumed in order to support the conclusion!

If wishes were horses, beggars might indeed ride!...and so might I!

There 'might' be an afterlife, but you don't show it by stating it, and you certainly deal with the problem of testing it by shrugging and saying "it's not testable here"....HERE is where we are. I don't care what interesting images/'memories'/concepts you have swirling around in your head, there is no reason to assume you got them from some other life, afterlife or 'alternate plane of existance'. Glib assurances that I 'will be surprised' someday don't move me much.

I repeat...HERE is where we are. 'There' is merely a fascinating concept with no substance, like "Nirvana" "heaven" "phlogiston" "ether" and "Platonic realms". They are easy to believe in if you are programmed to like believing.

geeez...why not go whole-hog and immerse yourself in The Urantia movement? They gots a whole BUNCH of realms to explore!

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Janie
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 01:48 PM

I think the most relevant point Bill is trying to make (not that he needs me to speak for him, and if I speak incorrectly for him, I'm pretty sure he will let us all know) is simply that it can be very important to distinquish between what is belief and what is fact. To assert that something is a belief as opposed to a fact simply means there is not objective proof of its truth or validity and makes no statement about the actual validity of the belief.

Having said that, people all over the place, probably all of us, hold beliefs for which there does exist objective proof that invalidates those beliefs. We just are not aware that the proof exists. I mean, there is a whole bunch of information and objective knowledge out there that I simply have never run accross. If I recognize my notion as belief, then I am always open to the possibility that some information may come along that may require some revision on my part. If I do NOT recognize a notion as belief, but mistake it for fact, then I will ignore or even deny any evidence that may come down the pike that is contrary to that belief. If I fail to distinquish belief from objective truth, I may decide it is reasonable, logical, (not to mention holy,) to hijack an airplane and fly it into the World Trade Center. I may think it is irrefutably logical and correct to murder an abortion doctor. I may decide there is irrefutable logic in trying to kill all the Jews in Europe, or I may think that kidnapping and enslaving Africans and bringing them to work in the sugar cane fields is warranted without any question. In other words, instead of being rational about those beliefs, I rationalize my actions in service to those beliefs. When I fail to understand my beliefs to be beliefs but think they are truths, then when you believe differently from me you are necessarily an infidel, an apostate, a creep, or at best, sadly but absolutely wrong, 'cuz both of us can not be right.

LOve,
Janie

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: bobad
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 01:35 PM

"Unfortunately, words are all we've got to communicate with on this forum..."

What about vibes, man.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 01:30 PM

"Demons" in that context is basically a metaphor for "something bad that is hurting me". So? When one finds out some more details about what that something bad is, one uses different words to describe it. All words are just symbols. He who uses more complex or modern symbols may rest under the illusion that he knows all there is to know about the matter, but he is probably wrong about that. ;-)

You can't fully grasp reality with words, only with direct experience.

Unfortunately, words are all we've got to communicate with on this forum...

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: bobad
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 01:22 PM

"demons in your stomach" was a nice theory until science discovered that too many hot peppers gave you ulcers!"

It turns out that there really are demons in the stomach causing ulcers, they are known as helicobacter pylori.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 01:14 PM

Bill, a dream is testable within the dream. The Afterlife is testable within the Afterlife. Neither one of them is testable here in the physical because they are NOT here in the physical. ;-)

And the physical is not testable in a dream or in the Afterlife...but it IS testable here.

Your assertions are based simply upon your predilection to insist that one theatre of operations, the physical, is the only real theatre that exists. You're like a chess player who will not accept the existence of checkers, whist, scrabble, poker, or backgammon...except as (in your view) insubstantial mental notions with no foundation in reality.

Every game, as I said before, is played strictly on its own board (or within its own rules and conditions) and is not testable outside of those. Observable to some extent, perhaps...able to be commented upon and debated about...but not testable.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 01:01 PM

"Good thing Louis Pasteur didn't care if they *believed* in his unreasonable hypothesis!" ...yeah, but the cases are not comparable because Pasteur's were testable and provable....soon they HAD to believe.

"Occam's razor does not work well where it requires the suppression of information..."

"suppression"??? No one is suggesting suppression. 'Information' comes in various flavors. Occam's razor is a filter intended to taste-test ALL explanations OF information, compare it to other explanations, and see if it can be forwarded to other filters. If information fails to explain the phenomena, I guess you could say it is rejected until expanded or corrected.

" Pluritas non est ponendea sine necessitate!" ..it's that necessitate that is the rub. If your metaphysics requires lots of non-demonstrable assumptions, then the razor suggests that it is on shaky ground...as long as simpler, testable assumptions are available.

"demons in your stomach" was a nice theory until science discovered that too many hot peppers gave you ulcers! *grin*

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Cruiser
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 11:39 AM

My parsimonious answer with a song connection:

"When You're Hot You're Hot"
"When You're Not You're Not"

When You're Dead You're Dead
When You're Not You're Not

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 11:26 AM

If someone makes a claim that obviously breaks the rules for stating a reasonable hypothesis, we may be forgiven if we doubt...whether we can prove him wrong or not.

Good thing Louis Pasteur didn't care if they *believed* in his unreasonable hypothesis!

It seems to me we keeep going round and round with "you cannot prove this in a scientific manner" and a "you cannot prove it, scientifically, that it is NOT so."

Has anyone read any of the books by the fellow for which I provided a link? The one who studied and wrote about children and reincarnation? Bill, he seems like someone you might respect?

BTW, Bill...you would be an excellent Rosicrucian...a walking question mark who will NOT take someone else's word for anything and HAS to be able to PROVE what is postulated in the monographs. (I mean that sincerely!)

kato'ninelives

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Amos
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 11:21 AM

Occam's razor does not work well where it requires the suppression of information in order to choose the simpler explanation.

A

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: *daylia*
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 10:51 AM

I very much appreciate the vivid imagery and intriguing mystery of my dreams too, Alice -- but whether I enjoy it or not depends on context.
For example, if I'd been in ecstacy over a dream like the one I described above, I'd know without question that I DID really lose my head, and it was still lost.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 10:37 AM

"They're real in their own reality."

....like Popeye, I guess.

It's hard to argue with a tautology.

(William of Occam would have slit his throat with his own 'razor' if he had to sort thru your metaphysics, Little Hawk... ;>)

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Janie
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 10:28 AM

Alice, well said.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Alice
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 09:38 AM

I have had experiences that probably cannot be explained by the human mind. I just accept that they are inexplicable. After all, human beings are very limited in understanding all that is in the universe. I don't say yes or no to what comes after this life. After life I hope there is more understanding of something that is not this life. In the meantime, each moment now is what I live for... and I enjoy how detailed and dramatic my dreams are.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: *daylia*
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 08:31 AM

I've died in dreams many many times, LH. I've drowned. I've had the sun fall directly on my head. I've been stabbed in the back by a certain former acquaintance of ours. I've even had my head chopped off with a sword. Never in my life have I heard such an awful metallic whoooosh!, and I hope I never hear it again!

I was 'me' in that dream, but different physically; the voice was much higher in pitch, and the hair flying around my face was very long and black and tangled - looked like it hadn't been combed in a decade). In the dream I saw my head lying there on the ground in front of me. In absolute shock, I'd picked it up and tried to put it back on my neck, holding it in place while just screaming with hysterical rage - in some unfamiliar language I could not make heads or tails of - at the one who slew me.

And stole my babies after she slew me.

Now, that latter experience was no 'random firing of neurons' in some unknown location deep within my semi-conscious brain. I still suffered that horrible painful slicing through the left side of my neck for about a year or so afterwards. And there's a lot more to this story but this is already WAY more than enough for a Mudcat thread, I think! So just suffice it to say that in my best estimation to date, it was no 'dream'. It was a past life experience.

Or rather, a past death experience.

And nothing too surprising either. Times were pretty barbaric, way up there in Finland a thousand years ago ....

:-)

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 01:18 AM

Heh! Thanks for the various advice, people.

Here's the really weird part. My Dad, who never wanted to "waste his time" discussing anything spiritual had a surprise visitation from his brother's spirit a couple of months or so after the brother died. That was quite a few years ago. At any rate, the brother spontaneously appeared in the passenger seat of my Dad's van while he was driving down the highway and asked some pointed question about whether the inheritance money was going to his children! (my Dad was the executor of the will) My Dad said the money was all tied up by the lawyers at the moment, his brother glared at him and vanished!

Now, believe me, this was NOT the sort of thing my Dad was interested in, believed in, gave a damn about, or wanted to be bothered with. However, he did tell me and my mother about it when he arrived home. After that he showed no further interest in tbe matter.

He just basically wasn't interested in anything that wasn't rooted directly in this physical world, no matter what happened. In the last few weeks of his illness a business friend of his who was quite religious suggested he should pray for healing. He rejected that idea scornfully, saying, "Prayer would NOT help." The last thing on Earth you'd ever find him do was praying, because he didn't believe there was anything out there to pray to.

He also saw the spirits of slain soldiers passing out of their bodies during firefights in WWII...but this gave him no belief in life after death. I asked him where he thought their spirits went. He said that he figured they just sort of dispersed and vanished.

So there you go. Most people believe exactly what they want to believe, evidence be damned! ;-) They will just interpret the evidence to suit their desired beliefs. My Father certainly did.

Or...if all else fails...you can just fall back on ignoring things that raise troubling questions in your mind and focusing on something else instead. That's denial, and it's very common human behaviour.

Bill - You might be intrigued to know that I consider dreams to be real...but not in this physical reality. They're real in their own reality. The rules of the game are very different there, needless to say. Esoteric literature calls the dream reality the Astral dimension, and it's a dimension of emotionally charged thoughts. In it you can do a whole lot of stuff you can't do here, as we all know, and you can avoid certain mishaps that are not so avoidable here (like physical injury, illness, death, being trapped in one scene and timeline until it's over, etc...). It's less static than here, more fluid, far less predictable or controllable (unless you really know how), and can be great fun or really scary or anything else at all. It's also more transitory than here. What happens in the dream reality is certainly connected intimately with one's subconscious mind and emotional issues, but that doesn't mean it's not real. ;-)

I love those flying dreams too, but I haven't had any in some time now.

I did have a dream once in which I was shot and killed by some criminals! I rose out of my dead body, looked at it in some shock, realized I was a spirit now and nobody could hurt me anymore, and then got angry and went after them...and they could see me...and they KNEW I was a ghost! This terrified them and I chased them all over the place quite gleefully for awhile.

This disproves the old wive's tale that if you die in a dream you'll never wake up from it. (For me, anyway.)

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Amos
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 11:48 PM

LH:

If he persists, ask him when he decided NOT to change, and see if you can get him to find out what first began that decision. It might shift him.

A

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 11:32 PM

Funny...I have been having dreams about MY parents the last couple of years, and they have been gone for 27 and 14 years, respectively.
...I never used to dream about them much at all, but I find myself going 'back' to the old family house, or discussing things with my Dad...or helping my Mom find something...etc....strange little interludes in my even stranger dreams...

I know how dreams are part of the way we process the stresses and concerns of daily life, and I am astounded sometimes at the themes and details and convoluted situations I can create while asleep. I always liked 'flying dreams' where I could soar, levitate and bobble about in the air...but a few nights ago, I dreamed ABOUT having flying dreams and was complaining to (someone) that I hadn't had any recently....so I found myself getting a lesson ABOUT flying, so I could really fly ....and again have realistic dreams! I was VERY upset when I woke and found I had 'only' dreamed it.

Now, I submit that that ranks as a pretty creative, meaningful dream...but I suspect that, although it was probably a reaction TO something, it all happened totally within ME, and was not influenced by anything except my own chemistry, position in the bed and random firing of neurons, which my semi/sub-concious mind tried to make sense of by organizing bits of memory in some coherent story line.

...and I'd wager that ALL dreams work this way. I have had VERY intense dreams, like most of us, and sometimes they seemed almost frighteningly 'real'...but **NOTHING** ever happened to indicate that they were more than my subconcious coping with aspects of life that I had not adequately processed while awake.

People have had VERY startling experiences both asleep and awake, and research is slowly showing some of the processes within us that can account for visions, 'visitations', 'voices', sounds and other phenomena. So what? Well, I happen to think that Occam's Razor is a pretty good approach to deciding about unusual happenings....and the more science can tell us about what is really possible, the less we have to postulate arcane notions that stretch the imagination into what may be IMpossible.

I love a good yarn...and I love science fiction...but I also think that the truth may be more interesting than some of the most compelling 'maybes' that we winder about.

Your mileage may vary.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Janie
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 10:50 PM

Exactly, LH. All the rest is mystery.

I have known people who have prophetic dreams, usually, but not always, forseeing the death of a family member who is not ill or otherwise infirm or extremely old. For example, a friend's mother is prone to dream of the death of family members 6 to 8 weeks before they actually die. (What a burden!) Her oldest daughter, otherwise seemingly quite healthy and robust, died at age 18 from an acute appendicitis attack before she could reach the hospital. The mother dreamed the daughter was killed about 6 weeks before. The mother had been frantic during that 6 weeks because of prior experiences of dreams correctly predicting imminent death of other family members. I have no reason to doubt the mother's experience. I am certain there is an explanation, but what that explantion may be is a complete mystery to me.

On another thread, several months ago, I shared an experience I had immediately after the death of my sister where I 'felt' her consciousness move through my mind like butterfly wings, communicating "Janie, it's beautiful. I don't know why I was so afraid." Maybe that was a communication from the otherside of death. Maybe it was a stress induced hallucination. I don't know and neither does anyone else. That experience is a mystery.

LH, maybe the dreams you and your mother have about your father indicate he is still around. Maybe they indicate that both of you are still working through issues around how his workaholism made him unavailable and unreachable in life, and here he is, still unavailable in death. One explanation may be as plausible as the other. Maybe they both ,if provable, would turn out to be true. If one works best for you, then go with it. Belief is not synonymous with fiction or fantasy. But it is also not synonymous with fact or truth.

And, I did not know you lost your father this spring. My condolences.

Janie

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 09:59 PM

We can only prove things about this life, because that's where we are at the moment. ;-) If we were somewhere else, we could prove things about that state of existence, but not about this one. Proof is strictly limited to the board upon which the game is being played, so to speak...since the game is not able to be played anywhere BUT on that board. This does not mean that there may not be other games available at another time.

Bill, I am just as worried about Bush's reliance upon weird religious notions as you are. ;-)

All the things I mention when talking about reincarnation, Bill, are not absolute beliefs of mine, but they are things that seem quite probable to me. My absolute beliefs only concern matters I've experienced directly in this life. There's a lot of other stuff I think is likely or probable...among which is reincarnation, etc....

By the way, my Dad passed away back in May this year, and my mother and I keep having these dreams where he's in the house, wandering around, talking about his business like usual (he was a 7-day-a-week workaholic who basically was interested in nothing except his entrepreneurial business ideas, most of which were extremely unrealistic, to put it mildly).

I don't think he knows that he died!!! In fact, I'm sure he doesn't know it. I have directly confronted him in several of those dreams, saying, "Look, Dad, you passed away on May 30th this year at the hospital. You're not in a body anymore. There is nothing you can do with the business here anymore. Why don't you be done with it, and move on to the next thing? Wouldn't it be more interesting than hanging around here?"

He won't have any of that. He refuses to discuss the possibility that anything has changed. He doesn't want to talk about anything except the same old stuff like before. It's damned frustrating, I can tell you. You couldn't talk sense to him when he was alive, and you can't do it now that he's dead either.

And no, Bill, I'm not joking. My mother and I have both been having those same dreams frequently in the last couple of months. Some souls are so stuck on this Earthly existence that they just WON'T think about anything else. My father never believed in anything spiritual or non-physical, he never was willing to talk about it, and he still isn't, it seems.

Maybe this is what you will be like after you shuffle off this mortal coil, eh, Bill? You'll show up in relative's dreams and say, "Whaddya mean I died? I'm right here talking to you, aren't I? I never died. The dead can't talk or do anything, and I'm talking, aren't I? So prove I died. Where's your proof? The burden of proof is on you." ;-) (that IS a joke, Bill)

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: John O'L
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 09:44 PM

That submitted when I was trying to preview it, so sorry for the typos, and here's the paragraph I hadn't even written yet -

She had knowledge and experience of playing trombone in a band which she could not have possibly picked up in her (then) seven years of life. She had at that time had absolutely no contact with anything of that nature, even remotely.


Now, preview...

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: John O'L
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 09:37 PM

I have nothing mathematical, scholarly or even logical to offer, but the most accessable incident I can think of which keeps me believing is my daughter's first day in the school band.

She is a very reserved girl, not shy, but careful. Like her dad, she prefers to know exactly where she's going before she goes. The first band rehearsal that year for some reason was not in the hall but the library and when we walked in there were about thirty kids with instrument cases all over the place, some assembling their instruments, some setting up their music stands, some already seated and warming up, others apparently just walking or standing around talking, and parents, at least of most of the beginners all trying to find a spot not too much in someobody's way.

A riotous cacophony of sound and movement, I was intimidated by it and I knew that she would be too. But where was she? She'd found a bit of floor space for her trombone (which was at that time nearly as big as herself), had opened her case and was assembling it as natural as you like. She then took it to a chair and stood it on its bell on the chair, went back for her music and stand, set them up, sat down and waited calmly.

She had not looked for a lead from what others were doing, and neither did she wade in and bluff her way through. She simply fitted in, and watching her do it there was only one conclusion possible for me: She's done this before.

It is worth noting alsoo that after six months she was invited to join the Intermediate Band, and after another three months, the Regional Band. I won't bore you with the significance of these achievements except to say she still (Four years later) holds the record as the youngest ever member of the Regional Band.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Peace
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 08:18 PM

"Still....as far as we can prove, we get ONLY this life"

It comes for free, a gift. Now people want more? Sheesh!

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Janie
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 08:12 PM

As a psychotherapist, metaphor is my stock-in-trade. Much of the work is about helping people find the tools (and then to learn how to use them) to begin to identify their beliefs about themselves, others and the world. The first, and in many ways, the most important step in the process is to learn to recognize that much that we treat as truth is actually belief. The next step is to acquire the tools and learn the skills to exam those beliefs to determine if they work for the person and the survival of the species in terms of being able to function adequately or well in their lives, relationships and the larger society. If not, then they work toward altering those beliefs using a variety of techniques and tools, including socratic reasoning. More simply, I try to help people answer the question "Do my beliefs facilitate my ability to live life on life's terms?" (and do they allow others to do the same.) Metaphor is one of the most powerful tools of the trade, and in deciding on intervention strategies, I am constantly striving to find metaphors that work within a person's over-all paradigm.

I agree, Bill, that failure to recognize the difference between belief and objective reality causes much woe, not just for civilization, but for the individual.

Janie

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Crane Driver
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 07:30 PM

I'm with Bill on this one. Bill will no doubt castigate me for taking this position without rigorous proof but - hey, so what?

My current 'soul-analogy' is with a candle-flame. A flame isn't a 'thing', it's a process. But it looks like a thing, you can feel it (ouch), it responds to its surroundings, it can change its surroundings, but it's not a thing, it's the manifestation of chemical changes in the candle. The chemical changes in the brain are vastly more complicated than those in a candle, so the brain's 'flame', the soul, is more complex than a candle flame. But it is still not a 'thing', it's a process. And 'thought' is just a flicker of that flame. So no, I don't buy LH's basic premise that 'everything is made of thought'. That isn't a 'given' for me.

So, where does the candle flame go when it burns out? Same place the soul goes, I reckon. Of course I can't PROVE this, but I've never encountered anything to convince me otherwise. And I do recognise that this world isn't here for my benefit, so I don't expect 'the truth' to be comfortable. Just because a belief in an immortal soul someday may turn out to be helpful for me, wouldn't make it true. Our beliefs are facts about us, not about the universe.

I do accept that my 'belief' may well be wrong, so at least I'm not going to shoot everyone who doesn't share it. And since I don't believe we survive, I don't really think it matters, so - 'whatever helps you get through the day' - I just share the concern that others may try to force their tenets on me in the belief that they have to destroy my body to save my soul. THAT is the point at which belief begins to matter.

All badly put, as I'm sure people will be quick to tell me, but - you did ask.

Andrew

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Peace
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 06:59 PM

Reincarnation: The ultimate in recycling . . . .

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 06:58 PM

(and while I was composing, Janie made my point MUCH more succinctly than I would have..*grin*)Your 'drop of water' metaphor really does not address the point you tried to make.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 06:54 PM

Ebbie...yep, I have commented several times that it ain't fair that if I am right, I don't get to say "I told you so!" *grin*...but on the other hand, if YOU are right, you get to gloat for eternity!

Still....as far as we can prove, we get ONLY this life....and whether we do or whether we get infinite lives, we have to live this one, and as I said up there about suicide bombers, the details of what people believe ABOUT 'eternity' and the rules for getting there affect how they behave in this life, and thus affect you, me and the very fabric of our being! I HATE being threatened by other folks superstitions and off-the-wall interpretations of doubtful texts. You make a point about Rex Humbard...I consider that G. Bush may LISTEN to 'ol Rex and his ilk!


Janie...all that stuff may be "over your head" as far as technical language and detailed analysis, but you do have a knack for it. Your statement about metaphysics is really very insightful and remarkably close to what happens as we attempt to get a grasp on both existence, and how to TALK about existence. Indeed, the language of 'spirit', 'soul' & 'god' are quite useful to provide 'color' to our feelings and expressions of wonder. I use them myself, but always with the understanding that they ARE metaphor....and most everyone that knows me is aware that I don't specifically refer to a 'soul' that has proven objective reality apart from and in some other 'realm' than my body.

Do I think it's worth asking whather there might be objective truth to the notion of other 'realms' and 'spirits'? Sure...as long as we don't assume the answer in the very way we phrase the question.

Right above, Little Hawk states: "I'm sure there are some cases of human souls coming back in animal bodies,...".......mercy! Look at the embedded premises in that simple opinion. 1) There are souls 2) they can be separate(d) from bodies. 3) they can re-enter bodies 4) The supply of souls is unlimited, since there are enough for 6 billion people AND 'some' animals...etc... (There are other implicit assumptions about 'location' & 'status' of souls which have NOT re-entered bodies and some serious ambiguities about whether all souls which ARE now in bodies have been previously in OTHER bodies...and what this does to the 'soul inventory'.)

   The point is, L.H. may BE correct, but such statements are ONLY personal beliefs, even though they are presented as givens.

It is that "this is how it works" attitude that concerns me, and why I wish for a more careful expression of the concepts.

Up there ^ I made a long attempt to suggest the adoption of precise language for discussing these things. In the physical realm, we immediately see the need for a "bureau of standards" to define exactly what a 'yard' or 'meter' is...or what makes a 'pound'...Actual examples are kept in safe places, just in case...and we don't let just anyone sell us a tape measure with his own opinion of how long an inch is. The length of a second is determined by measuring the decay of Cesium atoms...we KNOW these things because WE define them, then secure the definition. In the same way, the mathematicians, philosophers etc. have spent considerable time working out 'standards' for examining claims and the language that we need to compare notes ABOUT the claims.
If someone makes a claim that obviously breaks the rules for stating a reasonable hypothesis, we may be forgiven if we doubt...whether we can prove him wrong or not.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Janie
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 06:45 PM

LH, I accept that you believe everything is made of thought. And mayhaps it will prove true one day. But it is still belief as opposed to fact. I suspect that your use of 'thought' is also a metaphor for something that is not yet understood.



Janie

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 06:35 PM

"Spirit" and "soul" are indeed metaphors, Janie. They are metaphors for thought. Everything is made of thought, and it is thought that both forms and informs matter. Matter is a thought that has been slowed down enough to be perceivable by what we term "the physical senses".

"God" is also a metaphor. It's a metaphor for the one original thought, the summation of all thoughts, the origin of all thoughts, and the power of all thoughts. Since it is thought that created the Universe, "God" is characterized as the Creator. Most people see "the Creator" as a larger and more powerful reflection of themselves, so they clothe God with human characteristics, just a thinking reptile might clothe God with reptilian characteristics.

God is beyond human or reptilian or any other such specific defining terms, being simply pure thought, in essence. Thought also manifests as light...hence...to be "enlightened". A thought appearing in a thoughtless void is a light appearing in the darkness. A void is simply a lack of anything. Thought can fill that void, give it meaning and form, and manifest itself in any way whatsoever.

;-)

(and now I await Bill's gigantic philosophical response to that....)

"Where is your PROOF???????"   (smile)

Does a drop of water attempt to prove the existence of the limitless ocean of which it is one infinitesimal part? No. If it is like most other drops of water, it is so fixated upon its own tiny concerns and desires, and the actions of its immediate neighbours, that it is barely even aware the ocean exists. Nevertheless, the ocean continues to provide a grand and generous field for the water droplet to act out its little dramas upon. (one of those dramas being "the search for proof" when the droplet has made an assertion or is questioning the assertion of another droplet)

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Janie
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 05:30 PM

-Thanks, Bill. To the extent that I get your meaning, I agree with you.

Now, I'm about to take a deep breath and wade in to stuff that is way over my head. It appears to me that metaphysics is about the use of metaphor to make meaning out of the incredible amount of phenomena and experience for which we do not have sufficient 'facts' to logically define, and also as psychological defense to keep anxiety about survival at bay. I understand 'spirit', 'soul', 'god' etc. as metaphor. I consider belief systems about the same to also be metaphor. "Chunky stuff", i.e. matter, is not metaphor. However, as science continues to explore the nature of matter and energy, we find we have to continually revise our understanding of what matter is, what its attributes are, what are the laws that govern it. One day, we may factually understand consciousness, and at that point metaphors such as spirit and soul will no longer be useful. It is likely, however, that we will then have awareness of additional phenomena to which we are currently oblivious, but for which we have not yet discovered or developed the knowledge base to understand, and there will be new metaphors to make meaning of those.

Therefore, I think it reasonable and logical to conclude that we just don't know what happens after what we call death, and the most we can say about it is that it is a mystery.

Janie



Janie

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 04:42 PM

I'm sure there are some cases of human souls coming back in animal bodies, Kat, I just think that most human souls are more likely to come back as humans...but...if a soul wanted to be a dog or cat in a given life and had good reason for the experience...then why not? I also think there are cases where an animal soul crosses the line and reincarnates as a human being. That again is evolution in process.

In the case of earwigs, though, it's a long stretch... ;-) I think an earwig might be more likely to come back as a grasshopper or a praying mantis, perhaps.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 04:40 PM

"but some issues are just too important to take on faith or authority......."

Ah. Bill? Since you truly do not 'believe' the perceptions and experiences that others of us do, in what way is this issue "too important to take on faith or authority"?

If your view is correct and when we die, that's it, then there was no issue worth bothering about. If the other view is correct and we get to give you a hug beyond...?

You know, a great many accepted views are inaccurate. For instance, I know you will agree that just a single exception to an aphorism negates the the aphorism, i.e. Black people can't swim (as I've heard it said!) then the first Black person you see swimming makes nonsense of the aphorism.

OK. Have you heard that horses are dumber and more unteachable than most other animals? Since I have known TWO horses in my life that were astonishingly attuned to human expectations and needs I cannot agree with that 'truism'. I KNOW that if a horse wishes to please you, at least some horses are capable of incredible understanding.

My brother told me that he can't imagine why he had previously been of the firm belief that there was no such thing as thought transference or valid extra sensory reports. A couple of experiences of his own set him back on his heels.

The 'mystery', by its very nature, is not easily graspable.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Amos
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 04:37 PM

All knowledge derives from postulated realities about which one has certainty, Bill. The distinction you are making is not between knowledge and belief, but between the genuine beliefs which inform one's perceptions, and the social or pretended believes one gives oral subscription to.   Believing one exists, believing in gravity, believing one is in space are all deepseated beliefs, and asserting they are not so is a pretense, like that of the faith-healer who dislikes what he fancies he feels.

Your Cartesian approach is a good one, especially for dealing with systems like geometry, math and material science, where it works to "prove by challenge" and where reason has a relatively simple role to play.

But reason is, itself, a construct in which one believes. It includes for example a premise about time, about perception, and about the nature of if-then relationships about which one must not presume ownership. They have to be postulated as externals or the sandbox falls apart.

This is the formula of success in dealing with the mechanics of things of a material nature; but these requirements are not the same as truth. And, they get much less robust when you apply them to issues of awareness, creation, perception, intentionality, and the like, none of which have any role to play in the sandbox, and are preferred to be ignored whilke operating within it.

A