BS: Obama/____________ '08???

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: Alice
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 11:03 AM

CNN reporting that John Edwards has said "no" to being V.Pres.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 11:01 AM

I think this idea about Islam as a matter of heredity must come from an analogy with the situation as regards Jews, where it would have some validity. No doubt there are some Muslims who believe it to be the case, but the evidence seems to be that they out of step with mainstream Islamic religious laws.

There is some doubt whether Obama's father was in fact a Muslim, though his grandfather was.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: pdq
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 10:16 AM

"by the standards of other fundamental muslims he is indeed muslim having inherited his faith from his father"

Yes, and the punishment for a Muslim who does not follow his faith is rather severe in some circles: death. There are Moslim leaders in every Islamic country he would visit who would feel justified in ordering that such punishment be carried out.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: Amos
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 10:01 AM

PDQ:

Did you pull those numbers out of your butt? Or just make them up?

I don't think you have any idea what the majorioty of Americans think, and speaking for them without knowing what you are talking about is not a noble thing to do.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: MarkS
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 09:58 AM

Obama is no muslim by our standards. He can practice any religion he likes and we think nothing of it.

But - and a big but - by the standards of other fundamental muslims he is indeed muslim having inherited his faith from his father.

Not an issue for us, but could be a complication should he meet and deal with leadership from fundamental moslem states. By their standards they would feel like they are dealing with an apostate.

Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: pdq
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 09:39 AM

"...it shows me that Obama has a few tricks up his sleeve..."

That is what the vast majority of Americans are afraid of. (McCain 62%, Obama 34%, others 4%). Good times ahead.    *smile*

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 07:42 AM

Latest word is that Obama pulled off a late night meeting with Hillary last night... According to MSNBC he even tricked the press by telling them to be on his plane at such-a-such time and then having the plane take off without him on board...

Not too sure what came outta the meeting but it shows me that Obama has a few tricks up his sleeve...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 06:20 AM

Terry where are you?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: mg
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 12:39 AM

How could you appoint someone with either honesty issues or delusional mentality, remember Travel office, missing documents, FBI files, etc....with a husband with very questionable international ties, to Supreme COurt.   What a stretch of the imagination. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: Ron Davies
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 11:54 PM

Hillary was "forced out" by her own incompetence---running a disastrous campaign. We'll detail the aspects later--since some of her fans don't seem to realize there was no conspiracy--except in their lively imaginations.

Interesting how for some people their entire world is run by absurd conspiracies--if it's not the Mexicans, it's religion, or "the media" or...or...or

It's so neat--relieves them of thinking at all.


As to what she can do now:

1) possibly majority leader--eventually--not for a while
2) become power in health care legislation
3) possibly Supreme Court

But none of that will be remotely possible unless she breaks her neck to try to elect Obama first.

Right now.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 02:12 PM

Talking in terms of "the principles that this country was founded on" isn't really relevant in this context. Important, but not relevant.

What is relevant here is religious law, not civil law. And I still haven't been able to find any indication that Islamic religious law regards religion as a matter of heredity, any more than is the case for religious law in any Christian denomination.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: kendall
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 01:34 PM

Wilson was a sitting president.There is a difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 11:36 AM

Good question, Rigs, and one that has been asked in many a sermon...

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 10:36 AM

The real problem is, they keep practicing and practicing, are they ever going to get it right?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 10:24 AM

One of the principles that this country was founded on was freedom to "practice" whatever religion one wants to "practice"... The entire concept of "practicing" implies that thes freedom is based on a transcient verb, meaning that one must actually make some effort to "do" something...

It's beyond my comprehension that anyone who believes in the peremise that Americans have the freedom to practice a religion oif their choice can make any statement that narrows that freedom...

In other words, to brand anyone newborn as a Catholic, a Jew , a Christain, or whatever, is inherently un-American...

And given the nature of a post 9/11 world is nothing but a cheap and juvenilistic endeavor...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 09:18 AM

So, I am an Amish person? Just not a practicing one? Amazing.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 08:41 AM

Presidential candidate next time if Obama doesn't win. Or the time after that perhaps if he does.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 08:08 AM

"If she ever wants any kind of political future beyond NY Senator,..."


                      Which would be what, now that she's been squeezed out of the nomination?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: Ron Davies
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 08:07 AM

Also:   "No anti-war candidate has ever won the White House". Not precisely. Wilson in 1916 had as his main slogan: "He kept us out of war". You can say he was already in office. But it was primarily his anti-war appeal which re-elected him--in a very close election.   

That war was already in progress. As is the Iraq war.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: kendall
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 08:05 AM

Ron, you are right. Too many people see her as a foul mouthed vindictive witch. (Yes all you Wicca, I know what a witch really is)

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: Ron Davies
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 07:43 AM

Re: topic:

My respect for Obama continues to grow. His camp is squelching rumors of Hillary as VP. Good thing.

She would bring nothing but trouble to the ticket. Her role needs to be to start breaking her supporters in to the fact that her campaign is over.

Then she needs to start pushing--hard--to get those same supporters to get behind Obama. It should be an easy sell--they are close to identical on the issues, and his campaign, in contrast to hers, tried to stay positive as much as possible.

If she ever wants any kind of political future beyond NY Senator, she has to break her neck to try to get him elected. Now.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 07:40 AM

Islam and Judaism are passed on by birth That's not in line with what I've read, so far as Islam is concerned. Of course the Islamic scholars who've been quoted in this context may be out of line with mainstream Islam on this.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: Ron Davies
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 07:30 AM

Simmer down, Ake.

If you don't think Obama is huge progress for the US, and a rather better choice for the fall than McCain-- who will be elected if Obama is not-- you need to do a bit more reading.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:22 AM

And why does it matter??

Mr Obama's speech to the AIPAC, makes it perfectly clear that Mr Bush's policy on Palestine and the Middle East will be safe in his hands.
The rhetoric is already changing, you lefties have been hooked, you don't matter any more....now it's blue collar America, working class Conservatives, Southern racists....the whole ensemble.

By the time Mr Obama reaches the White House....if he does, his soul will certainly be the property of the Devil....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 02:57 AM

Well, the "mark" of Baptism is supposed to be indelible (although not visible) - so, from one perspective, a person baptized Catholic is Catholic for life.

If the person doesn't practice Catholicism, then it probably doesn't make much difference to him.

Islam and Judaism are passed on by birth - Islam by the father and Judaism by the mother. I don't know if either faith has a procedure for removing oneself from the religion. Once again, if the person doesn't practice the faith, then he is functionally not a member of the faith.

So, in terms of function, it would seem that a person must practice a religion to be a member. That's something that flows from within the individual. In terms of definition, the individual may not have much control - we are mostly defined by forces outside ourselves, whether or not that definition fits our essence.

I'm not well-versed in the legalities of membership in Islam, but I think it could be validly argued that Barack Obama both is and is not a Muslim. That depends on one's perspective - but for fundamentalists, having more than one perspective is anathema.

My four kids and my four siblings were all baptized Catholic, and none of them practice the religion. I would think I would be insulting them if I called them Catholic. If Barack Obama says he's not Muslim, than I'd say he's telling the truth. I was appalled by an e-mail I received this week that called him a liar for saying he's not a Muslim.

For all intents and purposes, Barack Obama is not a Muslim, although some people want to pin that label on him. And although my children and siblings were baptized Catholic by parents who believed it a wonderful thing to bring up children in a faith context, they don't want to be called Catholic - and I respect that.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: Amos
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 01:22 AM

In t is country, if a Catholic foreswears, and becomes a Buddhist, then by God he's a Buddhist.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: Ron Davies
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 12:49 AM

"branded a Catholic forever and ever". It would be interesting to know what a real authority might say about this. I suspect Joe has more expertise on this sort of question than many of us, who seem to often sound off on any number of topics without much logic or factual basis. Hope he comments.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: mg
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 12:38 AM

Well, you are not automatically a Catholic, but you are baptized at a few days of age. Someone sprinkles holy water on you and says some words and you are Catholic. You can decide later on you would rather be a Hindu, or an atheist, or a Mormon, but you are branded a Catholic forever and ever. It is not inherited though...you have to be baptized. I don't buy this you are totally free to choose your religion. That is a fairly new concept. It's a good one, to be sure..be what you want, but respect those who are in the older traditions. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 11:57 PM

According the laws of Islam, Barak Obama is a Muslim. There is no way he can get out of that." pdq

pdq's source? Jim Lad, I do believe."


"I was born to atheists, pdq." LH.

Little Hawk, it must grieve you that you have no choice but to be an atheist also. LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: Amos
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 11:52 PM

Obama was raised a Christian from the time he was six. He has never personally espoused Muslimism. As such the only opinion the millions of Muslim PDQ conjures up can have is possibly that he is an apostate. Being an apostate does not make you one the gang. I think this is just wild rumormongering.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 11:25 PM

"Obama's father was a faithful Muslim. According the laws of Islam, Barak Obama is a Muslim. There is no way he can get out of that."

And Hitler was a Jew.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: pdq
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 10:55 PM

Congratulations, TIA. You have reached the lowest level anyone has ever acheived in the history of Mudcat. Proud of yourself?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: Amos
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 10:52 PM

Not according to the experts of sharia which I have cited, But the truth is you don't know, and I don't know. So maybe it's one sect vs another. In any case it absolutely inaccurate t call Obama a Muslim in ordinary conversation knowing full well what can be misconstrued thereby. It would be a serious disservice. HE says he is not. In this country that's how someone's religion gets defined.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: pdq
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 10:49 PM

I did not say I believe anything about Obama's religion. I said that Islam has rules, and one is that the son of a faithful Muslim is, by birth, a Muslim. If you fools don't like that, take it up with the practitioners of Islam. I don't write the rules but I do like to inform the ignorant whenever possible. Have a nice day.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 10:40 PM

about 1.8 billion Moslems, if asked, would say he is a Moslem, then he is a Moslem

1.8 billion Christians might say I was Christian, that would not make me a Christian.

Why do you believe such an absurd statement? It matters NOT what anyone else thinks a person is; they are who they choose to be, no matter their birth, etc.

BTW, Joe, thanks!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 09:49 PM

It just is not true that you become a Muslem merely by virtue of having a Muslim parent, any more than you become a Catholic (for example) merely by virtue of your parentage. It's not analogous in this respect to Judaism.

Insofar as there may be Muslims or Catholics who think you do, they just don't know their religion too well.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: pdq
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 09:30 PM

Obama has a perfect right to reject his Moslem birth. I would . Really, I don't give a rat's ass whether Obama does or not. But, since about 1.8 billion Moslems, if asked, would say he is a Moslem, then he is a Moslem. Live with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 09:22 PM

No, Amos, he/she doesn't... Probably got the "20 second" media version which played 24/7 for 2 weeks...

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: Amos
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 09:11 PM

PDQ:

You obviously did not understand what Wright said about America.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: pdq
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 08:31 PM

Personally, I don't give a rat's ass what religion Obama is. I do object to Jeremiah Wright's anti-White and anti-American rants. If Obama ever shared those beliefs he is unfit to hold public office.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 08:28 PM

You can be human whether you like it or not. But can you be "Muslim" whether you like it or not? LOL! Obama is forced to be Muslim because his father was one???

And you say "Calling people ignorant because they know "the truth"????? What the heck is "the truth"? Who actually knows THE TRUTH? I know a of people think they do....

Well, it's a matter of opinion, right? And what is that opinion based ON? Opinions are based mostly on things people have been told by other people...who were told the same thing by other people...who were told the same thing by other people...trace that back to the very first time it was told in some ancient book and you go a looooooong way back!

So all people are doing is what a parrot does. They were told to say "Polly want a cracker!" and they say it over and over again. They were told to say "I pledge allegiance to the flag..." and they say it over and over again. They were told that "If you're born a Muslim, you're always a Muslim", and they believe it and say it over and over again. They were told that "All Jews think about is money" and they believe that too and say it over and over again.

Now list about 22,000 other stupid parrot-like things people are repeating over and over again because someone else told them to!!!

So, pdq, why would you choose to support a few million Polly Parrots who are repeating the notion that "If you're born to a Muslim father, you're always a Muslim"???? Why would you choose to believe that or give it any credence?

Because it's convenient to the argument you are engaged in right now, that's why. ;-) If you were arguing the opposite, you would laugh at the notion.

And you accuse Obama of hypocrisy???? Gad, man, take note of the beam in your own eye!

Obama is anything he wishes to be. If he wishes to be Christian, he is Christian, for as long as he wishes to be Christian and no longer. If he acts like "one of them" when he's visiting a Muslim community (meaning he dons some of their cultural clothing as a sign of friendship and respect for their culture)...he's not doing anything different from what thousands of politicians have been doing since time immemorial. He's attempting to create some goodwill.

Goodwill is something we could use a lot more of these days, specially between Christians and Muslims and Jews, wouldn't you say?

I was born to atheists, pdq. Now I have developed some spiritual beliefs over the years, but not in connection with any specific church or organized religion. Ain't I lucky? You cannot polly-parrot me as being a member of any specific religion, and that gives me a freedom that I am quite glad to have. But I bet it would get in the way if I was running for office in the USA. Yup, it could be a real impediment, I'm thinking. I might almost be forced to join some Christian congregation or else face the fact that I was unelectable.

The notion that Obama has no choice about whether or not he is (technically) a Muslim!...good Lord!!! Get serious, man. He is a human being, and human beings are all supposed to be FREE! That means free of someone else's stereotyping as to who and what they are. THEY decide who and what they are.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 08:25 PM

Yer sources seem to be a little on the skimpy side, pdq.... So until you come up with like, ahhhhhh, real sources... I think you can consider your assertion that Obama is a Muslim has been fairly well debunked...

But I reepect your right to say what ever you want, regardless of the truthfullness...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: Amos
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 08:08 PM

The NPR folks interviewed three leading Muslim religious leaders; they concurred that he is not a Muslim because of his birth, but only by his choice to become one. As such he never has been Muslim.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: pdq
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 08:01 PM

I have talked to people of the Moslem faith. They all say Obama is Muslim whether he likes it or not. Calling people "ignorant" because they know the truth is just plain mean-spirted. People who consider Barak Obama to be a Muslim include (probably) all the 9 million Muslims in the US. All must be considered "ignorant"? I hope not.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 07:51 PM

The "change" promised by Mr Obama is already starting to take place.
Unfortunately the change is in his professed stance on American foreign policy LINK

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 07:51 PM

That is a real stretch, pdq... Faith isn't something that anyone is born with... It's something that one accepts with search and learning... And for those of us of Faith, relearning from time to time...

And your sources for when Obama gave a speech to Black Muslims, por favor??? I haven't heard about that... Where and when did it occur???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: pdq
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 07:40 PM

Obama's father was a faithful Muslim. According the laws of Islam, Barak Obama is a Muslim. There is no way he can get out of that.

When the situation suits him, as in travels to Muslim countries or a speech to Black Muslims, he makes sure they feel he is one of them. He is a hypocrite, but most people are to some extent.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: kendall
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 07:31 PM

Bert, you are right. A recent poll says that 30% of the voters still think Obama is a Muslim. That's what we get for allowing ignorant people to vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 06:08 PM

Not to mention that he counters McCain's toughness...

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: GUEST,Cruiser
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 06:00 PM

Jim Webb. A very intelligent U.S. Naval Academy Graduate, Marine Corp Officer, author, and a true patriot.