BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: artbrooks
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 07:55 AM

Dianavan, since I support La Raza, which is news to me, and you are a craven chattel of the British Royal family, which I'm sure is news to you, why don't we just give it all up and go have a good cuppa tea and a laugh. My place or yours?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,Anti - Im
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 03:11 AM

Now THAT'S a high-powered rebuttal.

Canada has an ENORMOUS problem with illegals. The problem is you let anyone in, and they just pass through on their way to the U.S. Canadians are so stupid they don't even realize they're owned by the Queen of England. Crowns on everything, "dominion" stamped on everything, and you people don't realize you're the physical property of the English royal family. You're not even a country, you're a dominion. You are also muzzled by an occupational communo/fascist government that doesn't allow you to criticize anyone but Americans. You people never fought a war of independence, and now the royal family has arranged things so you go to prison if you criticize "protected groups." The one steam valve you're allowed is America, so you twits pass judgement on us constantly. But since you're the property of a bona fide nazi monarch, do you think anyone takes your judgements seriously? You are a pseudo-country, and you are the craven chattel of Elizabeth Saxe-Coburg-Gotha. Canadians know this too, and deep down you people hate yourselves for never having thrown off the English yoke. Until you do, your opinions about REAL nations are crap.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 02:08 AM

" Lots come in through Canada. They just pass right through that country like a dose of bran and very few of them speak Spanish."

That is not true. Canada does not have a problem with illegals. Its the U.S. that needs to revise their immigration procedures.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,Anti - Im
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 01:42 AM

You support La Raza, artbrooks. La Raza translates as "the Race." The group bases their ideology on their skin color. A racist group. And you are fine with that. Hence, you're a racist. I don't really care, because you have that freedom as an American. The problem I DO have with you is that you want to turn my country over to foreigners.

The bill was voted down in the Senate today, by the way. A true surprise. It seems our elected officials still have enough fear of the voters to follow the will of the people when it comes to the nut cutting. The Kennedy/Bush team will come back swinging, though, such is their hatred of America.

As far as who's behind the filling up of America with illegals, just read the news. The May Day pride bullshit of May 1, 2006 was coordinated by Rob Allen & company. They managed Bush's 2 presidential elections and Vicente Fox's (former president of Mexico), his last campaign. They were hired to stage manage the "spontaneous" protest of the criminal illegals in America in 2006. No attempt was made to hide who was behind the spectacle--Rob Allen instructed various hispanic leaders to throw a switch on May 1, and upwards of 20 million people were suddenly waving Mexican flags on the streets of America and shouting into cameras that they were going to kill the gringos. The event backfired on them too, and that's why it wasn't repeated in 2007.

Anyway, Rob Allen & company are doing the staging, but the usual players are behind the larger agenda. Vicente Fox was a Coca Cola CEO. Chase Manhattan bank owns Mexico, they installed Fox, and run the country. International conglomerate banking consortiums own Mexico, the US and Canada, and they're forging us into a single governmental unit. Or trying to. Beyond that, the usual couple hundred owners of the world are forcing the unions of the continents, and then it'll be multi-continental unions, then a world govt. That wouldn't be so objectionable if the people driving the bus weren't inbred satanists. The Windsor/Saxe-Coburgs, the Rothschilds, the Rockefellers, the Bushes, etc. Just follow the money and it leads back to the same couple hundred people over and over again. And they use religious and racial hatred to create turmoil. After the fighting is over and the races and religions have devasted one another, the elite move in and buy up things for pennies on the dollar, consolidate, then start over again.

America is their big obstacle, though. The US constitution, with its gurantees of free speech, and the right to own guns to keep govt in check, well that just doesn't fit in well with tyrannical world government.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 12:55 PM

"I've thought the immigration thing through. I know why it's being done, and I know who's pushing the legislation,..."

                Okay, clue me in. It doesn't look to me like this bill in the Senate benefits anybody. Of course, it looks like it's going to fail now anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: artbrooks
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 10:06 AM

Anti-human, I ignored your previous comments as being too stupid to be worthy of a response. No changes, I see.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,Anti - Im
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 09:47 AM

My rage is vented accurately. I've thought the immigration thing through. I know why it's being done, and I know who's pushing the legislation, etc. I also know that liberals are chowderheads and will parrot any nonsense they think is politically correct. I'm disappointed in "conservatives" who are turning out to be chowderheads too...supporting the Bush regime while they do this. Anyway, artbrooks can pop the champagne cork and embrace his fucking cutthroats now. All I can do is try to position my family safely and focus on the next America-killing legislation the Democrat/Republican monster will hit us with.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 07:45 AM

Anti-Im - It seems like now matter which side of the immigration debate you're on, the Senate Bill is a disaster. It doesn't seem to do anything for anybody, and it will make immigration enforcement next to impossible.

             It seems to me that the questions people might want to ask are 1. Who proposed it? 2. What was their purpose in proposing it? and 3. Who benefits if it passes?

             The last question might be the hardest to figure out, but if we had the answer it might provide a target to vent your rage at.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,Anti - Im
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 11:34 PM

Canadian. Should've known.

artbrooks...didn't we discuss your support of groups based on skin color? Was that you, defending La Raza ("The Race") and Mecha and all those pigs? I think we left that where I was pointing out that if you support La Raza then you're by extension supporting the Aryan nation. And the KKK, I suppose. Like I say, you liberals don't think things through. "The Race" is bad. They're bad people. Why do you support racist groups?

Anyway, you America-haters will have a happy day tomorrow when the Amnesty bill is passed. Here's the first commentary on it I've seen. Read it and weep:

http://sessions.senate.gov/pressapp/record.cfm?id=275456

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 11:17 PM

"They want to kill us. They say so." Data source, please. I'd guess that the percentage of Hispanic migrants who want to kill citizens of the US is much smaller than the percentage of active posters on Mudcat who want to murder migrants. And, BTW, Dianavan is Canadian.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,Anti - Im
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 10:52 PM

Please note, dianavan, that most people coming into America are OTMs (Other Than Mexicans, to use Border Patrol parlance). And please note that I feel the word "target" should be looked up in the "appropriate dictionary." People from all over the world are coming into America illegally. Lots come in through Canada. They just pass right through that country like a dose of bran and very few of them speak Spanish. But the people just to the south of the US present a special problem. They want to kill us. They say so. And national suicide is a bad idea. You are a typical liberal on the immigration issue. Your positions are fed to you as the needs of the corporate elite change. You will be for whatever they tell you to be for, even up to and including national suicide. But hey, you're an American, aren't you? If so, I defend your right to advocate national suicide. I'm personally against it, though, and I should be accorded the same right to my beliefs as you are. You're about to get protection for your beloved criminals with the most heinous immigration law to ever be shat upon America, and when some tubercular axe murderer is screaming at you in Spanish that he's taking over your house, don't forget that you invited him in.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 10:32 PM

and I'll take 200.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 10:32 PM

I think he just shot himself in the foot.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 10:31 PM

anti-Im's first post to this thread, "Illegal immigration and amnesty have nothing to do with race. It's all about waging war against America."

His last post, "No, my 'blast a few now so we don't have to blast them all later' idea is the only approach that makes sense."

This guy is not worth talking to.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,Anti - Im
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 04:39 PM

The 'punish the employers' argument is about to become academic. The Democraps are about to get their beloved 'hate crimes' bill passed, and then you won't be able to discriminate in employment based on national origin. Then you'll HAVE to hire the illegals. Probably even pass an incentive package to hire them too.

No, my 'blast a few now so we don't have to blast them all later' idea is the only approach that makes sense. Most humane approach.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 02:44 AM

Why would you want to brand and bag any human being? It won't solve the problem.

Thank goodness Ebbie, Riginslinger and others understand that punishing Mexican workers will not solve the problem.

The only way to approach this problem is to punish the employers of illegals. Nothing else will stop the flow.

Get some anger management skills, Anti-im! If we branded and bagged you, we would all be alot safer.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,Anti - Im
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 12:15 AM

Enforcement would be easy if we just branded a circle on their foreheads and then looked up the word "target" in the appropriate dictionary. Send them home after we're sure they grasp the concept, then if they show up again, pay a bounty to any lawful citizen who bags one.

And the illegals don't NEED any stinkin' identification. Haven't you folks been following current events? Remember the stink a few weeks ago when it was reported that illegals could open bank accounts with NO I.D.? YOU need 3 forms of I.D., but they don't need any.

A town in Texas recently voted to make it against the law to rent to illegals, but the courts have blocked that. The federal govt is importing illegals to break down American society. This is the gangster, multinational-controlled Republican/Democrat monster I'm talking about. They're job is to destroy America, and unchecked flooding by illegals followed by blanket amnesty is one of the ways they're going to kill the country.

I know my brand 'em and bag 'em approach may seem overly humane, but it's the only sure method of controlling criminal immigration now.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 11:04 PM

Good on ya, Rig.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 04:55 PM

Ebbie--I agree completely. Puhishing the workers is the wrong way to go. Punish the employers, after all they're the ones who are really breaking the law.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 04:49 PM

I've used this analogy before but let me use it again:

I had a poodle once that rescued any baby animal in need ranging from other dogs' puppies to baby rabbits to kittens.

This one Siamese kitten arrived, weak and way too young, having barely survived a distemper bug that killed his litter mates. I turned him over to my dog.

Did you know that nursing brings milk? It does. The kitten thrived and my dog was a zealous mother.

Time passed, the kitten became a half-grown cat - and he still nursed.

When I bred the poodle for her own litter, I didn't want her energies drained that way so I worked at breaking him of the habit. It got so that when I came in the room the cat ran, while the dog looked at me helplessly, as if asking 'What can I do?'

Then I had an epiphany. I punished her.

I'll tell you, she broke him of the habit in no time flat.

So: If we really are serious about preventing illegal entry into this country, forget about catching and punishing them. The first time illegal labor is found in a company, shut down the company for two weeks. Second offense: Shut down all of their stores in the region or in the nation.

Tell me that Walmart would tolerate their stores being shut down for a month.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 04:07 PM

"I haven't seen you come up with a way to chuck them out, Anti. As soon as they are out, they will come back in. Its a revolving door. A wall will not stop them. Prison will not stop them. In the long run, human smuggling becomes more profitable."


             I think all you would have to do is enforce the laws that are on the books now. If they would prosecute the employers who have illegally hired immigrants, and prosecute immigrants for identification fraud when they've committed it, that would eliminate the lure of American jobs. Then if they would simply follow the law, and prevent illegals from accessing social benefits, why would they stay here. It would cost more to live here than the country they came from.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 04:10 PM

Okay, I Googled it. They pay their workers 50 cents and hour. That's not what Ebbie was talking about. The discussion was about factories that payed well.

                These factories are slave labor camps run by multinational corporations that exploit both Mexican and Americn workers. The Mexicans are working for peanuts and American workers in places like Michigan and Ohio can't find any work at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: artbrooks
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 03:52 PM

Those factories have been there for a long time now - google "maquiadoras". Of course, if Gringos went there to work, I expect that they'd be expected to learn Spanish.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 02:56 PM

Anti-Im(migrant), should and could are two different words.

We in the US also should do something about what is happening in our government's name - do we? Can we?

As for US-assisted factories on the other side of the border- my guess is that the US would profit.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 02:44 PM

"There seems to be a confusion in terms, and I'm not sure it has been completely cleared up and understood. There is very little controversy about ESL (English as a Second Language), which is a class that teaches English to immigrants"

             That's absolutely true. While living in California, my son was a victim of "bilingual education." He was a native speaker of English and therefore could not take advantage of all the benefits, both from state and federal programs. Lavish amounts of money was available for these programs, and administrators wanted to get what they considered to be their fair share. The result was, every other aspect of education in California suffered.
               They were even issuing "emergency credentials" to speakers of Spanish, so they could qualify for the money. Children were simply being taught in Spanish. The text books were published in Spanish.
               In the end, the taxpayers finally went to the polls and mandated a stop to the program, which put non-native speakers of English in immersion classes and brought the system out of the dark ages, at least to some extent.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,Anti - Im
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 01:39 PM

No, Ebbie, escaping your country just because it's screwed up is a coward's way out. Jobs 'just over the border,' well why the hell aren't there jobs in Mexico? They took a large percentage of ours with NAFTA, and now they want MORE from us? They need to stay home and change THEIR society, not mess with ours.

And it IS criminal to sneak across a national border. Crime is crime. If I planted an axe in my neighbor's skull and then argued that it's the same as splitting wood, do you think I'd walk away from the charge? Well, maybe I would--need a better analogy.

Mexico has the MOST BILLIONAIRES OF ANY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD. If the people of Mexico are so impoverished that they have to come to the U.S., then they need to confront their problems. Mexico has three times more natural resources beneath the ground than the US does, so why are the so 'poor'? They're not. They're just ruled over by tyrants. They need to stay home and fix their government, disperse the wealth more effectively.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 12:56 PM

"If the US helped fund a string of factories that paid well on the other of the border, how many Mexicans would opt for the US?"

    If that should happen American workers would probably try to breach the border the other way in order to work in the factories. If they did that, I wonder how they would be received?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 12:27 PM

Equating 'crime' with 'illegal entry' to my mind is a stretch. One may be a law-abiding, productive person with a good work ethic- when there is work. If there is no work, one cannot feed one's family- if one is not willing to break the law and sink into moral degradation by dealing drugs or fencing a burglar operation or maybe settng up a prostitution ring.

What option would you take, if you knew that just over the border there is a place that needs the work you can do? As long as you are willing and able to pay big bucks to a 'coyote' and withstand heat and exhaustion, all while feeling great fear and stress- and knowing that you might have to do it over and over.

If the US helped fund a string of factories that paid well on the other of the border, how many Mexicans would opt for the US?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 08:52 AM

"I'd also like an answer to my observation that taking away birthright citizenship--especially if you also refuse to educate the children of illegals in public schools-- would create a young uneducated underclass with no stake in the country--as in France. Why would that be such a good idea? How has it worked out for France? And in France, the immigrants may not want education in public schools--but the illegals here definitely do---and it's essential for assimilation."


         Birthright citizenship was put into place after with Civil War as a means of preventing reactioinaries in the south from denying freed slave the right to citizenship. It has now become a cheap trick for people who want to bypass the immigration laws and provide themselves a means of staying in the country illegally. A pregnant woman is smuggled across the border to have her child on the American side, then the child becomes a US Citizen and qualifies for all of the benefits. The parents of the child, of course, are perfectly happy to exploit the status of their child to promote their own ends.
         In southern Arizona some small hospitals have simply shut down obstretic departments because they were simply overwhelmed by illegal pregnant women. Regular citizens who require this care are now compelled to drive to the larger cities further north.
         There is no reason why people who come here and have children could not go through the regular application process to citizenship.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 03:42 AM

Anti-I think we all understand the word criminal but you cannot punish the illegals without punishing those that hire them.

I haven't seen you come up with a way to chuck them out, Anti. As soon as they are out, they will come back in. Its a revolving door. A wall will not stop them. Prison will not stop them. In the long run, human smuggling becomes more profitable.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,Anti - Im
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 02:54 AM

Screw "educating" them. They're criminals. Deport them. Let them come in legally, THEN debate the niceties of how their kids should be educated. Best education in the world would be for them to see their criminal parents chucked out of the U.S. Make the kids learn there's a legal way to do things and an illegal way. All that you do by allowing their parents to stay is teach the kids that laws don't have to be followed. What the hell's wrong with you people? Home Depot has refreshment centers for criminals hoping to hook up with contractors for day labor. A criminal's a criminal, so maybe we should allow pedophiles to have refreshment centers in daycare centers. I mean, that's where they'll find what they're looking for, right? What part of "criminal" don't you folks understand?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 12:55 AM

There seems to be a confusion in terms, and I'm not sure it has been completely cleared up and understood. There is very little controversy about ESL (English as a Second Language), which is a class that teaches English to immigrants - most times, the teacher does not speak the native language of the immigrants, and only English is spoken in the class.

There is significant controversy about bilingual education - classes taught in English AND the native language of immigrants. I'm not sure what term they use for classes taught completely in the language of immigrants.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 12:16 AM

Staying with thread creep just a bit, I'd like to point out that ESL simply means English as a Second Language. It means only that English is not the language they were born into.

As a tutor, on occasion I had 5 different cultures and languages in the same group; there was a Pole, a Czech, a Russian, an Iranian and an American Navajo. Their ages ranged from 32 to 56 A couple of these people knew three and four other languages. and almost all of them learned fast.

Although I always learned a few words and phrases of the different languages just for fun, only English was taught.

English was not my own first language either but a dialect of German. When I started school I still didn't speak English but I learned very quickly and painlessly. I think that most children are like that, so I'm not convinced that English classes for them are essential. After all, the English speakers have to 'take' English right along.

Maybe it should be like what was done with my daughter. She read quite easily before she started school so the school assigned a tutor to her for the first three months, just to make sure that she understood the concept and utility of phonics.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 09:45 PM

Thanks for the info on ESL. As long as English is the only language spoken by the teacher in instruction, that's fine. I remember a course I took in German--in Germany. Only German was spoken--Frenchmen, Turks, Americans, Spanish, etc. were in the class---and it worked fine.

You're right--self-esteem as the highest good--meaning that a game must be never have losers, only winners--or no winners at all-- is a real problem these days--with some parents being willing to change the rules so their little darling's self-esteem won't be bruised. This does the child no good when he or she is away from home.

But I think we may be sliding into dread "thread creep".

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: artbrooks
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 03:48 PM

ESL, almost by definition is not first-language-specific. My brother teaches it; he is currently working in a program that teaches Puerto Rican Army enlistees enough English that they can go on to basic training. It isn't really different (except for being more systematic) from the English night schools that generations of our own ancestors attended (my French and German greatgrandparents and Jenn's Russian grandparents, for example).


These people, whether they originate from Mexico, Ireland, Poland (the three top sources of illegal migrants) or elsewhere mostly want to either become legal US residents (and citizens, some day), and pay taxes and assume all of the other obligations associated with residency, or to work here as non-citizens (paying taxes, etc), send money home and return home themselves some day. Living on the dole and letting someone else (i.e., clean livin' nat'ral-born (that is, White) Amercans) support them isn't their intent-we have enough people here already who have that as their goal.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 02:37 PM

I don't know how it is in the U.S. but in Canada, English instruction (ESL) is available to anyone who is learning English. Vietnames, Russians, etc. would have the same opportunity. In my ESL classes, there are many, many different first languages. They are all learning English and only English is used in class.

Yes, "many waves of immigrants have successfully assimilated" but that does not mean school was a pleasant experience for their children. Without English, a child will struggle and feel alienated. The sooner they are able to learn English, the sooner they are able to take part in the full spectrum of educational opportunities and socially integrate with their peers. Otherwise, the schools are faced with sorting out the problems that are associated with discrimination. The 'gang' problem would be totally out of control if students could only communicate with those who shared their first language. Its about social integration.

If you worked in France, would you place your child in a school where he/she was expected to learn French overnight? Do you really think it is fair to expect a child to sit in class and not understand a word that is being spoken? Far better to give them language instruction so that they can actually learn something and make some new friends.

btw - most of my ESL kindergarten students are able to fully integrate by grade 2 or 3 and compete quite well with their peers. In fact, they usually do better. Perhaps that's the real problem. Parents don't want their spoiled, little darlings to have to compete with kids who actually value education.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 02:11 PM

Also, when you get into ESL, you raise the spectre of special treatment. Why ESL for Spanish speakers--but not for Vietnamese, Russians, etc?   And many school districts cannot afford to cater to each ethnicity that might be involved. Do you have any idea how many ethnicities there are in the Los Angeles area?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 02:06 PM

OK Dianavan--many waves of immigrants have successfully assimilated--without ESL. Why should this be no longer true? There is a huge incentive in the US for children of immigrants to learn English--and there always has been.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 02:00 PM

Maybe its different in the States but in Canada ESL instruction is English language instruction. It does not mean that subjects are taught in the student's first language. Why would you want to end ESL instruction? Its our best method of preventing groups of alienated youth. The sooner a student learns English, the better. Otherwise you return us to the days of sink or swim which is no way to educate anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 11:47 AM

Ring--


There's no reason to speculate that Obrador would have fixed Mexico's problems. One problem appears to be the inefficiency of many government-run monopolies. From his background, it appears he may well not have tackled this. (It's unclear if anybody has the clout to do so).

Re: education of illegal immigrants' children:

Sorry, there are 12 million (at least) illegals right now in the US. You don't have the luxury to wish they were back in Mexico. That's not an option--and you should be careful what you wish for anyway--their departure would show you immediately to what extent the US economy depends on them.

It should be obvious that educating these kids is the right thing to do--among other things to bring in more tax revenue as they get better jobs---and that it has to be done in the US.


I'd also like an answer to my observation that taking away birthright citizenship--especially if you also refuse to educate the children of illegals in public schools-- would create a young uneducated underclass with no stake in the country--as in France. Why would that be such a good idea? How has it worked out for France? And in France, the immigrants may not want education in public schools--but the illegals here definitely do---and it's essential for assimilation.

ESL is another topic--I think a strong argument can be made for the end of ESL. English only in public schools--except if the subject itself is Spanish, for instance. And learning at least a bit of Spanish would be a good idea for all Americans. I actually find learning other languages to be very rewarding--and fun. Though obviously I can't expect everybody to share that attitude.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 10:19 AM

Yes, I have children. And yes, I can understand the huge number of reasons why people want to come here. But if the boat continues to pick up floundering people, which in the end causes the boat to sink, we'll all drown.

                   The answer to these people's problems is to straighten out the situation in their own countries. In Mexico they almost pulled it off. Lopez Obrador almost won the last election, and probably would have if so many of his countrymen hadn't run off to the United States.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 10:16 PM

Riginslinger - Do you have children?

If you could only find work in Canada and Canada had a better education system than the U.S., where would you want your children educated?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 05:02 PM

Ron--I did get what you were saying. The problem I have with someone like the speaker of the CA Assembly--and I'm not saying he is one--is they often wear the size of the family they came from like a badge on honor on their sleeve. I'm saying people from those kinds of backgrounds would be better served to realize the peril that kind of behavior puts the rest of humanity in.

"Therefore you ought to be a strong supporter of public education for children of illegal immigrants. Are you?"

            This is a hard question to answer, in that the education of the children is important both to the children and to the society of which they are members. Where it gets sticky is, once they're here, they're here to stay, so I would answer it this way:
            I'm all for educating children wherever we find them, but I would rather they be educated in their country of origin, and not imported to the US to become a burden on the public schools here.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Ron Davies
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 09:47 AM

Ring--

You didn't read what I wrote. The speaker of the California assembly did not really have much of a voice in the 12 children. He was one of them. Maybe next time he'll pick parents who are more responsible.

His family, however, is much smaller, I would guess. That's my point. That's the way it goes as people climb the economic ladder--especially since the old idea of needing a lot of kids to help around the farm dies out--as the US farming population declines. By and large, people are rational about this--as they get educated. Among other things, the "be fruitful and multiply" injunction of the Church tends to take a back seat to other concerns. Therefore you ought to be a strong supporter of public education for children of illegal immigrants. Are you?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 09:02 AM

Ron--I know as people gradually climb the education,
socio-economic ladder they have fewer children, but I just don't think we have time for that. That transition needs to take place in their country of origin, and that is happening. If we could just hold off the hordes for another 15 to 20 years, I think we'd be over the hump.
                Actually, I think it verges on the criminal that one family would have 12 children. If I were the speaker of the Califronia Assembly I'd be embarrassed to mention it. The fact that he's not tells me something of his values.


                And you're right, I would trust the government for 10 seconds to let me back in the country if I left. That's just one more reason this proposed "guest worker" program is a bad idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Peace
Date: 01 Jun 07 - 11:03 PM

Hell, I don't trust governments, period!

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Ron Davies
Date: 01 Jun 07 - 10:56 PM

Ring--

You have something against runaway population growth. Fine. So do we all. But as I said earlier, as people get more education, the size of the family tends to drop. Case in point: I was just reading about the Speaker of the California Assembly. Hispanic, came from a poor family--1 of 12 children. I'd hazard a guess that his own family is much smaller. That's the way it goes. You cannot extrapolate huge numbers of kids indefinitely into the future.

Also: a question for you. I'm just curious. Try to make the effort to put yourself into the shoes of an illegal immigrant. If you were told you'd have to leave the country--go back to your country of origin--in order to apply to come back, would you agree? Would you trust government bureaucracies to run efficiently--and trust the US government to let you back in? I sure as hell would not.   How about you?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Jun 07 - 03:57 PM

Agreed, they are. Which means we should all be supporting third party candidates. We ought a have an election like low-ball poker where only third party candidates can run, and the guy with the fewest number of votes wins.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Jun 07 - 02:27 PM

Bush and the Democrats ARE criminals! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Jun 07 - 08:10 AM

"As I asked before, do you really think an ethnic group will be "controlled" by the wife of a candidate--ever? Pushing this prediction into the future is a copout. I know you don't seem to think much of Hispanics--but they do have minds."

               Ron-I have nothing against Hispanics. I do have something against runaway population growth. But I think what is important as far as Jeb Bush's Mexican born wife is concerned centers around what the Republican politital operatives think will happen, not what really happens on the ground.
               If these people were reliably correct in their assumptions, Iraqi nationals would have happily greated American troops with smiles and flowers.


    "In the meantime, the present laws should be enforced, which means fines for employers who hire illegals."

               dianvan-I agree completely. The employers are the real culperts here. They are acting solely out of greed. I would go one step further and gleefully throw them in jail.