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BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 05 Sep 04 - 08:05 PM As someone who took a breather from this joint because of all the abusive posting, I'd encourage everyone to let this thread die from not so benign neglect. I haven't posted before and won't post again. Some of us are moving on, positively and enjoying life. Why not join us? Hang some black crepe over your rear view mirror. Jerry
Thanks. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: wysiwyg Date: 05 Sep 04 - 06:19 PM The picture is you, to a T, Joe! ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: Joe Offer Date: 05 Sep 04 - 06:06 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: The Shambles Date: 05 Sep 04 - 06:01 PM Wolfgang I do use words that tend to exagerate the case probably as much as I have come to expect it to be automatically minimised by some, in turn. I suspect that somewhere in between these two extremes, lies the truth and that most folk will realise this. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: The Shambles Date: 05 Sep 04 - 05:54 PM What a threatening sentence. Let it slowly sink in and digest it and you'll understand why these threads seems never to end. You could always post to agree - but I will settle for a least some comment actually on the issue. As a last resort, I will even settle for you posting anything that sends it to the top again. No one is forcing anyone to open this thread (except that you just can't resist having a peek) and no one forcing anyone to read this - it you really don't like it - don't keep refreshing it. If simply ignoring threads and posts that are not to your taste was encouraged - the problem of abusive postings would have gone away long long ago. The reason these threads never seem to end is the same reason it gets refreshed and put back up to the top of the forum every time someone posts to point out the blindingly obvious, of how pointless it is to post. While you are posting just to make a value judgement on the the worth of other's posts - you could at least address the issue or even answer the following question. Wolfgang et al - do you think that the routine deleting of entire threads and all their posts - to address a few posts judged to be 'offending' - is the best and fairest course of action to those Max has invited to contribute and who just happen to be unlucky to share this thread? And just because the volunteer in question "couldn't see spending much of my time sorting the wheat from the chaff?" [The full quote follows.] Do you think action should be taken to ensure that it does not happen again? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: Wolfgang Date: 05 Sep 04 - 05:48 PM we do tend to have anonymous executioners (Shambles) Always take the strongest possible analogy, Shambles. If you look at Mudcat you think of freedom losing to fascism, if you think of the JoeClones you think of executioners. You have no sense of proportion. The reviewers of my articles are anonymous for me, the post clerk deciding whether your parcel is too large is anonymous to you, most copy editors are anonymous. Lots of decisions each day are made by anonymous people, but the first instance that comes to your mind are executioners who BTW, have nothing to decide? Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: GUEST,GROK Date: 05 Sep 04 - 05:29 PM If I promise NOT to disagree with you, will you promise to stop posting to this thread? If so, plesae reply on the thread started in your honour. BS: Help Shambles Find A Worthwhile Cause |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: GUEST,GROK Date: 05 Sep 04 - 05:26 PM Mares eat oats, and does eat oats, And little lambs eat ivy, A kid'll eat ivy too, Wouldn't you? Fanatics can't change their minds and won't change the subject. You have fought the good fight and let's call it a draw, OK? Are you ready, Boots? Ba dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: Wolfgang Date: 05 Sep 04 - 05:21 PM Posting to disagree with me will probably just keep the thread going, as I will probably reply. (Shambles) What a threatening sentence. Let it slowly sink in and digest it and you'll understand why these threads seems never to end. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: wysiwyg Date: 05 Sep 04 - 05:10 PM Dear Bored in California, I believe there is a new pageful of requests rather recently added at Recordlady-- downloadable sound files for those out of the loop-- if anyone wants to consider posting some new SONGS at Mudcat.... did a few myself, and hey! Some of them already HAD THREADS I could add to (to which I could add)! And only one of them had any real arguing in it! ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: Joe Offer Date: 05 Sep 04 - 05:05 PM
Wondering in the night, what were the chances We'd be sharing love Before the night was through... -Joe Offer, bored- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: The Shambles Date: 05 Sep 04 - 04:59 PM If you're a parent, Roger, you undoubtedly on occasion -although perhaps not routinely ;~) - have found yourself telling a presistent beyond belief child, "No. That's it. Not another word." ?? Ebbie-. Yes I am a parent (although our youngest is now 23). When I was young and because, I suspect, of the example given by my parents, I always hated being told things like 'because I say so'. This was usually by someone in authority who supported and demonstrated double standards and expected me to do what they told me to, rather than follow the example set by their actions. I felt that these people demanded my respect but showed me very little respect. Because of this, I always made a point of trying to ensure that I never set this example to my own children and was as consistent in my approach as possible. I am quite sure that I never actually managed to maintain this high standard and did resort, at the times you mention – to words and actions that I would later, not be very proud of. We all screw-up. However, if/when I ever shut my children up by such tactics – rather than trying to explain and to reason – I would not expect my intelligent and questioning children to ever be satisfied with this and for this to be the end of it. No matter how unreasonable my children were acting - if they were telling me that I was being unreasonable and too set in my ways – they were usually right. If I wanted a quiet life – it was better (for all concerned) for me to make some small adjustment, in response to my children's requests – than to simply maintain - that because my intentions were always well-intentioned - everything I did was perfect and could not be improved. If I didn't make even a small adjustment, I could be sure that my children would never give-up, until I did. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: CarolC Date: 05 Sep 04 - 04:11 PM I'm sorry, The Shambles, but with my severe astigmatism and ADD, I find it very difficult to read through most of your long posts, and I don't really have any desire to get into a discussion with you or anyone else about this subject anyway, so I am now bowing out of it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: The Shambles Date: 05 Sep 04 - 03:32 PM That was not a song that was deleted, The Shambles. It was a taunt masquerading as a song. And it was an invitation for others to contrubute their own taunts and insulting verses. Thanks Carol, for responding to the issues raised. You may well be right - but now has the song has been deleted there is no evidence to support your value judgement that posters are currently encouraged to make on the worth of another's poster's contributions. It may well have been an invitation to others to contribute to the thread, as you say but this does not mean that folk cannot decide for themselves whether they wish to take-up this invitation or not. They are not thought to be able to make this choice for themselves, and now they cannot decide, for the decision has been made for them, with this value judgement and imposed editing action. I am just asking for an example to be set that does not first encourage this us to judge the worth of each other's posting and secretly report it to Joe or Jeff. But one that simply encourages us all to address what is said to respond or to ignore it. I think you may accept that this current example and inconsistent editing action and some poster's frustration with this - may at least be partly responsible for this song being posted in the first place? But I am not defending the posting of the song, am just evidencing that this instance, (that Joe refers below) was Joe excusing imposing deletion on this song, as being a straight-out attack - needing 'no value judgement' and different to Catspaw's post here that did seemingly require this value judgement. A post that by Catspaw's own admission was an intentional offensive personal attack! For without the value judgement - that you and Joe both made upon its worth - the song in this thread was just one for (possible) addition to the DT. "I don't make value judgements on stuff like that. If it's an attack and somebody calls it to my attention, I'm obligated to delete it. Sorry. -Joe Offer- " And the following from the HELP forum thread linked to below. I'm an equal-opportunity deleter. I don't care who's attacking whom. I don't go scouring the Forum for personal attacks, but if I find it, I delete it. { the quote goes on the mention the names of posters whose posts he has both deleted]. I never doubt Joe's good intentions but perhaps whether he is an equal-opportunity deleter or not – is not a value judgement for him to make - but it is perhaps one for Max and us? http://help.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=2684&messages=2 The following quotes demonstrate that our volunteers claim their fight to protect us from personal attacks does not protect us from personal attacks from our volunteers - like the following selected examples from Joe Offer. Shambles, go whine somewhere else, or maybe we should start threads about you and the sheep or something. But Shambles believes in this sort of thing, so I think that maybe this would be a good opportunity to smear his reputation. Shambles, I'm sick of you and your shit. Ah, Shambles - we make an exception for you, since you seem to think it's a good thing to have personal attacks. We want to keep you happy, after all. Your whining is so annoying. I am sure that value judgements will be made that I really deserve far worse (a point also made by Joe). But it is not the nature of the attack but where it originates. Is this kind of thing really the best example for our volunteers to be setting? If abusive personal attacks are supposed to be discouraged and the prevention of this is the whole justification for their existence and for their imposed editing actions – perhaps it is not the very best example and that it is time to set a better one? Just the smallest indication of even a little movement towards this - would be a welcome start. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: CarolC Date: 05 Sep 04 - 11:42 AM That was not a song that was deleted, The Shambles. It was a taunt masquerading as a song. And it was an invitation for others to contrubute their own taunts and insulting verses. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: GUEST Date: 05 Sep 04 - 11:33 AM Help The Shambles Find A Worthwhile Cause |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: GUEST Date: 05 Sep 04 - 10:59 AM Fred re your 04 Sep 04 - 08:18 PM and a new line of work for The Shambles. I was just thinking the same thing. Shambles, there are virtually millions of causes you could go to bat for, but let me suggest just one. Even though he's on the west side of the Big Pond, this guy could sure use your talents. Hmmm...that gives me an idea. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: The Shambles Date: 05 Sep 04 - 05:52 AM In most 'civilised' society - we do not tend to have anonymous court judges. However, we do tend to have anonymous executioners.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: The Shambles Date: 05 Sep 04 - 05:42 AM Good morning. It would be nice if a few more people who take the time and trouble to post, actually addressed the points and answered the questions.... The ingenous reason Joe Offer gives for not deleting Catspaws (admitted) personal attack in this thread, is as follows... Well, Shambles, I suppose you have a point there, if you want to get all legalistic. But generally, if a post is primarily a disagreement of ideas, that's one thing. If it's strictly an ad hominem (personal) attack, that's another thing. The personal attacks get deleted. If it's a personal attack that's mixed in with something that's mostly a discussion of ideas, then it gets messy. And then we have to use a bit of judgment. AND "I don't make value judgments on stuff like that. If it's an attack and somebody calls it to my attention, I'm obligated to delete it. Sorry. -Joe Offer- " The extraordinary fact is that above judgement, comment and the deletion - was from the music forum and was imposed upon a contributed SONG! kat says: There's nothing worse than a self-appointed crusader of a non-existent cause. I really suspect there is a lot worse but......Others can judge for themselves whether the 'cause' is non- existent or not. One of the less offensive things that Joe has called me recently, is a 'self-appointed busybody'! We probably agree on this, at least. Although the word, volunteer has a more respectable sound to it. Now one could talk about the kettle calling the pot black but we won't go there. It is less the point that I am a SAB that Joe objects to but more the nature of where I choose to stick my nose. For I would contest that the whole forum is currently being encouraged to be SABs. Encouraged to judge the worth of other's postings and to generally mind everyone else's business. To post and request that judgement is passed on the worth of the contributions of others and that editing action is imposed, based on this judgement. Joe has little problem with these SABs. In fact these constantly complaining sad souls are encouraged to complain about others and not thought of as being SABs but the very people who he is volunteering to serve. The rest of the posters who do not need to watch others or constanly complain about them and who just get on with posting are not really very much considered, until they are reported as 'out of line'. However, 'self appointed busybody' only becomes a term of abuse to Joe when the business that I am minding, is what Joe considers to be his. Those that volunteer to judge the worth of others on our forum, do not appear to take kindly to being scrutinised and judged in turn. One of the claims is that 'we are not on trial here'! Well if not our volunteers – who is on trial here? Perhaps no one should be...However, the way Joe appears to see it, those who are here to be judged obviously? Real court judges in society – (whether they actually achieve his or not) – are supposed to be subject to a higher scrutiny and willingly accept this as part of their privileged position. Encourage me to mind my own business by all means but why not at the same time take steps to encourage everybody to do this by setting a more positive example? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: katlaughing Date: 04 Sep 04 - 11:37 PM Roger has always been jealous of Spaw. I don't see anyone else trying so I will have to do my best as I don't see that I have much choice but to try. There's nothing worse than a self-appointed crusader of a non-existent cause. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: Ebbie Date: 04 Sep 04 - 08:24 PM If you're a parent, Roger, you undoubtedly on occasion -although perhaps not routinely ;~) - have found yourself telling a presistent beyond belief child, "No. That's it. Not another word." ?? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: GUEST,Fred Miller Date: 04 Sep 04 - 08:18 PM That's an interesting story Spaw. I once worked at a job where I had so many different responsibilities I eventually fired myself. Wonder now if I'd write myself a letter of recommendation. Shambles, not everybody is villifying you or attacking you, just not quite agreeing. Nothing personal in that. I admire your persistence, but really I think you'd be better suited to a bigger purpose. Can I call you if I'm unjustly imprisoned? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: GUEST,GROK Date: 04 Sep 04 - 08:16 PM Jaysus, Shambles. You remind me of a German Shepherd I oce had. She damn near drowned trying to bring a log into shore. It was a freshly-felled birch tree. Darn dog just wouldn't let it go. The tree must have weighed 200 pounds. The dog weighed about 70. Good dog: loyal and determined. However, at times I questioned how bright she was. Jeri, Wolfgang, BillD, Spaw, Joe, et.al.: none of these people presume to be the last word on ANYTHING, so why worry about it. They were just giving some advice and contributing thoughts on an issue. But right now, we all pissin' into the wind. There are ooccasions when censorship can be employed for the general good. Is it always perfect? NO! But, it's a damn sight better than you'll find anywhere else on the 'net, IMO. I admire tenacity. But, there are times I really gotta question the 'fundamentals' of some people. The fat lady has sung. Let's do a round of "Goodnight, Irene" and move on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: The Shambles Date: 04 Sep 04 - 07:55 PM Catspaw said: From Jeri and Wolfgang to McGrath and Bill D, you have received all kinds of reponse but nooooooo.....not enough and they don't match what you want. Joe gives you a factual answer of exactly the reality of the situation and you don't like it either. More debate is required. Yeah, right.....my fuckin' ass more debate......If that horse you're beating gets noticed by the local constabulary, you'll be arrested for abuse of a corpse! If I am being abusive to you....GOOD!!! Perhaps you will understand better because you HAVE to be masochistic!!! You have been told in a thousand ways that no one else much cares but you continue. Well that's okay I guess.....You deserve your opinion! Joe Offer said: Well, Shambles, I suppose you have a point there, if you want to get all legalistic. But generally, if a post is primarily a disagreement of ideas, that's one thing. If it's strictly an ad hominem (personal) attack, that's another thing. The personal attacks get deleted. If it's a personal attack that's mixed in with something that's mostly a discussion of ideas, then it gets messy. And then we have to use a bit of judgment. AND "I don't make value judgments on stuff like that. If it's an attack and somebody calls it to my attention, I'm obligated to delete it. Sorry. -Joe Offer- " Perhaps you could explain the difference to me in a bit more detail preferably with reference to the Official Line? Catspaw's post sure reads like an attack to me. Is that all one has to do then - wrap up one's attack? I can see many taking notice and ready to follow this example. Sigh. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: GUEST,GROK Date: 04 Sep 04 - 07:46 PM Shambles, G-d always answers our prayers. Sometimes the answer is no. Spaw has no more rights than anyone else here. I had a post removed once--in fact a whole thread I'd started. In retrospect, that was a good thing. You are making me think of people who don't want anything to change, ever. Man, the good ol' days weren't all that good. They were not all that much better than today. I have listened to people pine for days past when everything was better and the intellectual repartee was so much more refined and life was good under the apple tree. Know what? I have read some of the threads. They were no better than the average thread today. There were some gems to be sure. There have been some gems recently, too. So, what's to say? I wish you well with your crusade, but not too many people really care all that much. Editing happens. That's life. Accept it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: catspaw49 Date: 04 Sep 04 - 06:35 PM Ex-wife Joe???? Are you referring to the one who went missing that day you were fishing? Back in the War Between the States, there was a Confederate general named Braxton Bragg for which Fort Bragg is named.....Why they named it after him, I have no idea as he was a dyspeptic and unpleasant person prone to losing battles and snatching defeat from the jaws of victory on several occasions. He was widely disliked and not respected by his troops and other officers as well. But Braxton Bragg had one enduring and endearing quality and that was to call a spade a spade if he saw it that way from his point of view. A few years prior to the war he was the Quartermaster of a western post. The post commander died and Bragg was named to the job until a permanent commander could be put in place. As Quartermaster Bragg he wrote a letter/memo to the Post Commander complaining of something. As Post Commander Bragg, he wrote back explaining the situation, arguing with the points made by the Quartermaster. Quartermaster Bragg read Post Commander Bragg's response and wrote a scathing diatribe in return. Thus began a long correspondence between the two lasting quite some time. I have always loved that story and found it quite singular that a man could correspond seriously with himself to the extent that Bragg did. He didn't need anyone else to have an argument when he himself would do. I thought the story was extremely funny and I used to get a big laugh out of it. I used to......... Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: GUEST,GROK Date: 04 Sep 04 - 06:27 PM Mommy, he's baacckkkk. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: The Shambles Date: 04 Sep 04 - 06:23 PM I just hold and express my view. A view that I always had thought was shared by most of my fellow posters. Shooting me down now will not change our forum to the place that I and many others felt welcomed to when we first contributed many years ago and the fine example that was then given by Max (and indeed Joe Offer). This warm unconditional welcome that now seems only open to folk like Catspaw and others, who are permitted to completely ignore the Official Line and are excused from the punishment automatically meeted out to unlucky others for making offensive and abusive personal attacks - for the most ingenious of reasons [see above]. Folk like me, who ask perfectly valid questions are subject to offensive personal abuse from volunteers like Joe, who seem to think that being questioned is the same as being attacked and that this then entitles them to personally attack in response using offensive langauge, that was not first presented to them. The result of this weak attempt to impose this double standard, is to totally descredit this fine forum. And these very people post to invite me to stop contributing and to go somwhere I like better? At the moment a lot of people (including Joe Offer) are constantly setting the example of moaning about the worth their fellow contributors and the merits of this or that thread. Others are still encouraged to complain constantly about whether others should use a name or not etc. Pedant's complaints are now almost always listened to and our forum shaped to accomodate this moaning. Posters are still being encouraged to secretly request that the postings of others to be judged and editing action imposed upon oter posters without their knowledge. Now, unknown numbers of unknown volunteers are encouraged to make personal judgements on the worth of the contributions of others. Jeri accuses me of saying something that does not sound nice. Does any of the above sound very NICE? No it is nasty - if it were necessary and effective - there may be some justification for it - is there any? Does it really HAVE to be like this? I don't think it does. Have I been moaning about my fellow posters? Have I been making personal and abusive attacks upon them? I actually LIKE our forum and accept that I may not agree with the views of others - and that tolerating this IS pretty much the whole point of it. However I may not like the fact that our forum appears to have been taken over and a completely different set of values is now enshrined - as if this was always the way things were. It is not - and had it ever been - I, and I supect many others, would not have felt welcomed and repaid that welcome by many positive contributions over many years. This is my view and I am evidencing that view - if you don't agree - fine. Post and say so, that is debate and if we can debate everything from the universe to armpit hair here - we should be (if there really is a will) able to debate measures to prevent flaming and abusive posting - without being encouraged to resort to flaming and abusive posting. As for it changing anything - who knows? I don't see anyone else trying so I will have to do my best as I don't see that I have much choice but to try. I suspect that possibly some small things may already have changed? Given the stonewalling and blind support, it is ulikely that anyone will ever know. If so, it is a shame as I will just have to carry on trying. I don't accept everthing I say is so unreasonable or impossible - and even the smallest of movements in he right direction would be welcomed. Some simple answer to simple questions will help as none of my detractors, in their haste to shoot the bearer of the message, has yet answered or debated these. Why cannot this approach be always taken in such cases? Despite its nasty and counter-productive nature - why is such imposition thought to be the first, best and often the only method? Will the routine deletion of entire threads continue because volunteers 'can't be bothered' - only to delete what they judge to be the 'offending' posts or in future will deletions always be confined only to the 'offending' contributions? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: GUEST,GROK Date: 04 Sep 04 - 05:51 PM Myyyyyy Gawdddd! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: Joe Offer Date: 04 Sep 04 - 05:46 PM No, we've already decided Shambles is my ex-wife. Once or twice, Max has called me "Dad." The possibilities are frightening... -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: GUEST,Weekly Update Date: 04 Sep 04 - 05:31 PM GS, You have the restraint to post days and days apart. It is good to know someone is doing his bit. LOL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: Rasener Date: 04 Sep 04 - 05:16 PM Just a thought. Could The Shambles really be Max? :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: Jeri Date: 04 Sep 04 - 05:15 PM Yeah, Joe. You sure do! Now personally, I would never...wouldn't usually...alRIGHT I don't always get sucked in. I keep thinking people will miss what's really happening, even though I know folks are smarter than that, and I'm stating the obvious. You ever see the movie 'Groundhog Day'? I need to go wail in DADGAD a while and work on some songs. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: Georgiansilver Date: 04 Sep 04 - 05:10 PM Oh no Joe...you do a grand job...just keep it up!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: Joe Offer Date: 04 Sep 04 - 05:01 PM Yeah, and I keep getting sucked into it, despite my noblest efforts. Oh, I hate myself!!! -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: Georgiansilver Date: 04 Sep 04 - 04:35 PM Blah de blah de blah...and so some people...certain people keep it going for what?????? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: GUEST,GROK Date: 04 Sep 04 - 04:22 PM Let me see if I have this right. A guy goes to a restaurant. He doesn't like the food or the service. He keeps going back to eat at the same restaurant. He keeps complaining about the food and service. Well, fucking doh! Maybe it's time to find another place to eat. DING! If this thread was a blow job, it would have killed forty men by now. It's been going on for eleven count-them days. Doesn't that calf have a mother? Shambles, come up for air. Take a week off. When Lewis Carroll was asked how one should go about writing a story, he said, "Start at the beginning, and when you get to the end, stop." The END. Warmest regards, GROK |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Sep 04 - 03:59 PM Yes! More! More! I need this sort of stuff for my young cousin's psychology essay. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: Jeri Date: 04 Sep 04 - 03:31 PM Shambles, you admit it's Max's site. Face the fact it's also his prerogative to delegate authority/responsibility. You don't like that, but you're stuck with it. You can keep on trying to make Mudcat over into the image of what YOU think it should be, you can keep writing editorials and calling them 'questions', you can keep mis-paraphrasing, blowing things out of proporion, defending those who wish you'd mind your own business, twisting facts to fit your agenda, etc, post nauseum, and none of it will accomplish anything, except for ensuring people will likely avoid discussing these things with you. My guess is that you've alienated everyone who could change things. It doesn't mean people won't occasionally enjoy the debate, just that it's highly unlikely anything will change because of it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: Joe Offer Date: 04 Sep 04 - 03:13 PM Well, Shambles, I suppose you have a point there, if you want to get all legalistic. But generally, if a post is primarily a disagreement of ideas, that's one thing. If it's strictly an ad hominem (personal) attack, that's another thing. The personal attacks get deleted. If it's a personal attack that's mixed in with something that's mostly a discussion of ideas, then it gets messy. And then we have to use a bit of judgment. And no, we're not going to go into a big discussion or defense of that. We do what we have to do to keep the peace, realizing that it will be absolutely impossible to satisfy everyone. Most likely, it will also be futile to attempt to defend our decisions, so it ain't worth trying. We just do what we guess is best, and let the chips fall where they may. As for sending requests for deletion to Max, you're welcome to do that. Others may wish to send their requests (privately) to Joe or Jeff, the people Max has designated to handle that task. On the other hand, Max and Joe and Jeff really don't want to be bothered with deleting unless we have to do it. We'd much rather be doing music or other things. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: The Shambles Date: 04 Sep 04 - 02:47 PM Shambles, do you not understand that Max is the only person with whom to discuss or debate this? What I say or Jeri says or Wolf says or Joe says is completely unimportant.......It is only what Max says that matters here. In the face of reality - that is your opinion. I may well go along with it - if ALL requests for the judgement and deltion of the posts of others were also be sent to and dealt with only by Max.......How about it are WE at least in agreement on this? As these occasions are stated to be so rare - it should not be too much of a chore or take too much time.... Joe Offer said: in the following in the HELP forum thread I linked to above. Note that I have asked that requests for deletion be sent to me or Jeff privately. Thanks. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: The Shambles Date: 04 Sep 04 - 02:30 PM Pat - From one who has just stated that they have intentionally posted an abusive personal attack on me and used what many consider to be unacceptable language in that post - it is rather difficult for me and I suspect most of us, to take anything you may say seriously. If the object of all this censorship is to stop abusive and offensive - posting what example are you showing? By this action alone you have totally compromised all the people you take great care in naming - especially Max. Yet you are supported and I continue to be villified!! If you are not prepared to abide by the rules - but more importantly to respect the wishes of so many posters - perhaps it is time that you left our forum to those who can show the self restraint that you have shown over many years that you are unable or unwilling to do. Going by the Official Line, that is supposed to apply to others, without exception - your posting should have been deleted. For example the following has just been posted on the HELP forum.http://help.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=2685&messages=5 "I don't make value judgments on stuff like that. If it's an attack and somebody calls it to my attention, I'm obligated to delete it. Sorry. -Joe Offer- " http://www.mudcat.org/detail.cfm?messages__Message_ID=1263923 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Sep 04 - 02:05 PM Interesting point, 42. That's what it's all about...bringing people together to satisfy their mutual needs and desires. Like I say, the thread ought to be bronzed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: katlaughing Date: 04 Sep 04 - 11:05 AM I love you, Spaw, ya ol' litter-kicker... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: catspaw49 Date: 04 Sep 04 - 10:42 AM Shambles, do you not understand that Max is the only person with whom to discuss or debate this? What I say or Jeri says or Wolf says or Joe says is completely unimportant.......It is only what Max says that matters here. He has been open enough and caring enough to give us a place with great latitude where he rarely inflicts his will. But make no mistake, the site is his and were I in his position I would wonder what it is you are complaining about! Big picture? What is that? If it is made up many little pics and the people involved in the little pics are happy, what is wrong with the big picture? It doesn't make sense. Only if you are saying this does it make sense: "Although these people are happy, there are too many instances of this happening, therefore the big picture is bad, although the small pics are all good." Then the question becomes how much is too much and once again the only person who can decide that is Max. Personally I think you need to go out and try debating this shinola on another forum more typical of the net. Maybe then you could see just how minor and trivial your gripes are here. If what you say is happening 25 times a year here, I would still consider that very low taking into account the volume of postings and the great leniency given in the first place. And once again, if this is simply too much for you, go find or create something nearer to your ideal. I'd love to see it. Ya' know, Jon Freeman did that and I think he did a great job. Jon created what Jon wanted and made it work. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: GUEST,Fred Miller Date: 04 Sep 04 - 10:41 AM As a general topic, it's as interesting as reading obscenity and copywrite case histories, which I sometimes enjoy. The difference is that this is a site that has been provided, and although it closely follows the best thinking of public legal standards, although it fills a public service, it doesn't have to. There might be room for improvements, but I'm still not over my surprise at how good things are. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: 42 Date: 04 Sep 04 - 09:02 AM there are sadists. there are masochists. Most of them are on this thread. I commend them on making a totally appropriate choice of venue to push each others' buttons. j |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: Rasener Date: 04 Sep 04 - 08:33 AM Fred :-) and kisses |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: The Shambles Date: 04 Sep 04 - 06:37 AM Shambles, I think I started that trouble thread you quote, wondering what happened to my last post. I got a reasonable and timely answer, and was satisfied with it. I don't think anyone's saying everything is perfect, some people are saints, and your analogies are the root of all evil. I think people are taking a reasonable view of things, and registering some appreciation for considerable efforts made. Yes I can accept that. However, that is yet another problem with providing (some of) the supporting evidence that some demand to see. The individual case is examined, and very often the 'victim' is reasonably happpy with their treatment - or at least the later explantion for their treatment. So folk understandably think - just what is all the fuss about? The wider picture tends then to be ignored in all the agreeing or disagreeing with the wisdom of the individual judgement. Which leads me in to another important point, that if the 'victim' was first informed of the problem and proposed action - before judgement was automatically imposed upon them without their knowledge - they most probably would be just as happy for the action to be taken and would not then have needed to write and ask 'where has my contribution gone', I would not have seen this request and everyone may be 'happy'.. Why cannot this approach be always taken in such cases? Despite its nasty and counter-productive nature - why is such imposition thought to be the first, best and often the only method? But this is but one example - I can inflict others upon you - if you really insist. And this rather IS the point. Over time and reading a number of 'why has my contribution gone' threads, I just became more concerned at the effect less of editing itself - but of all this imposition of it and of the example it was giving. I just feel that it is time for a more positive example to be set - one that more in sprit with the reason why most of us came to post here and why may of us intend to carry on doing so. I agree that some and probably most folk may be "taking a reasonable view of things, and registering some appreciation for considerable efforts made." However not everyone is perhaps as informed as they probably should be and are possibly leaving a little too much to trust and placing too large a burden upon those who volunteer to make the efforts, on our behalf? There are however a few notable exceptions. Posts here that state their very intention is to be personally abusive and contain the 'F' word - remain without comment, perhaps because its poster is above censure? Or may be I am just tempting fate and this entire thread will now be deleted (or closed) as a result of this post (and my complaint about it). I make no complaint about being personally abused on the forum, not because I am a masochist. If I were such, abuse is not really likely to hurt me- is it? But even if this and similar posts stay on the forum - I nor anybody else needs to read it. If they do and are offended - then why choose to read it. Choice is rather the issue here or rather of having no choice - or of having things decided for you. But this is NOT an encouragement for personaly abusive posting to be made and accepted. It IS an encouragement for some folk, (as so many already can and practice this self restrait) not to respond in kind and not to respond at all. To accept they do not have any control over the posting of others and to always set this example. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Sep 04 - 01:33 AM Kee-Rist! I drop in here every now and then for a good laugh...and I am NEVER disappointed! No siree! Gotta love it... This thread, once it is finally done and buried, should then be bronzed and put on permanent display in the Famous Turds of the World Museum in Schenectady, don'tcha think, Spaw? Whoo-hoo! What a stench. That is the deadest goddamn horse I have EVER seen. That horse wouldn't get up and walk if you paid it to. If its hooves weren't nailed to the perch they'd be in a bar of soap by now. It is defunct. It is kaput. It is an Ex-horse! |