BS: Muslim men and white girls - again

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 10:00 AM

All such cases haven't, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 09:21 AM

The East European cases do not involve school kids.
No case involving gangs pimping, trafficking and serially gang raping children would ever go unreported whoever the offenders were.
So, why have all such cases involved BPs?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 09:21 AM

I'm fascinated by the assumption that we have "left-wing and liberal media". Most of the press and TV channels are quite to the right. The BBC used to strive for neutrality (even after Thatcher emasculated the balance requirement) but recent statistical analysis has shown that for example the panel membership on the flagship "Question Time" is strongly skewed in favour of the right. The Times, Telegraph, Mail and Sun are very very right wing. Every so often the Independent surprises me and fails wholly to toe the right-wing line, but I see it as generally right of centre. When the Star talks about anything apart from tits it is kneejerk ignorant right.

The Mirror is less to the right but you could not call it far left of centre, and the Grauniad while left of centre is so mostly in a fairly muzzled, muesli-eating, sandal wearing sort of way.

For example no part of the press or media other than the Guardian and the Morning Star (the latter a tiny tiny market) defend against the current government demonisation of the poor and less able as "benefit scroungers". And while Musket says some sensible things above (shock horror) he follows that media bias too.

Left wing and liberal media? I wish.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 09:20 AM

As we have seen over the last few days Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance - NOT.

The title of this thread is not accurate. These thugs are not 'men' they are paedophiles / pedophiles. Hence the term for the area where these thugs frequent - the old mill towns of the North of England such as Blackburn, Bolton, Rochdale, and other ghettos like Luton, Southall and Slough in the South - is paedostan / pedostan.

It seems that the Asians have a monopoly of abuse against women what with gang rapes and murders in India, and acid throwing Pakistanis.

But then acid throwing seems to be the action of choice now-a-days, even the reputation of the Russian Bolshoi Ballet has been seriously affected by the blinding of its Director over soe insignificant internal spat.

Allah and God and JC (if they exist - which I doubt) must be turning in their graves at such misinterpretation of their teachings of love and tolerance to all.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 08:46 AM

Is anybody here seriously suggesting that the techniques described in the Muslim trials are NOT used by Eastern European sex traffickers or by our indigenous sex-for-sale industry?
These cases are recent and they are occurring in communities which are traditionally recognised as being law abiding, industrious and unintrusive to the point of being accused to being "secretive" - all of which makes them "newsworthy".
Similar crimes in other communities are not highlighted because they are ongoing - the are reported in the local papers as local news, (and such crimes certainly are challenged as being "Exclusively Muslim" in left wing publications regularly) but they are part and parcel of the British sex scene in general.
While the national press does concentrate on Muslim crimes I can't recall any responsible newspaper (left or right) attempting to claim that these crimes happen nowhere else - can anybody else?
Keith and his ilk rush to quote "experts" (in some cases, having doctored reports) but they always ignore the fact that Jack Straw, judges, police and other involved warned that "it would be wrong and to draw any racial or cultural conclusions from these events".
Jack Straw actually described some of the criminals as being no different from any other testosterone-driven" young men from any racial or cultural group - a statement that Keith saw fit to omit from his cut-'n-paste.            
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 08:31 AM

Jim, like Don you claim that there are non-BP convictions but because all the media are racist we do not hear about it.
I think The Guardian and the BBC would strongly refute that.

You are reduced to making ludicrous claims to avoid addressing the fact that over the last 4 years there has been a stream of these appalling cases of gangs serially raping and pimping vulnerable children, and most of the offenders are BPs.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 07:54 AM

"So Jim and Don, why do all of the string of such cases involve mostly BPs?"
They don't, and even if they did, 200 out of 3,000,000 would not not even register on the abuse Richter scale.
We know (and have pointed out) that others use, and have always used exactly the same methods first seduction, then pimping - it is as much a part of or sex-trade culture as it is anybody else's.
Our press (and racists like your good self) choose to highlight only Muslim criminals for their/your agenda - that's what makes news in the popular press.
Still no explanation for your lying I see!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 07:42 AM

Don - You keep saying that, but the convictions were all for crimes related to underage sex. I will stick to the term underage sex rather than paedophillia if you like but the term is irrlevent. There are still 200 people convicted of crimes related to underage sex in the Moslem population of 3 Million and 2000 in the non-Moslem population of 57 million. A difference of almost 2 to 1. Now, I have already said I don't know the reasons for this. I have gone so far as to suggest it could be racial prejudice within the police force. But, whatever it is, something needs to be done to redress the balance.

Now, if you want to compare procurement, prostitution or living off immoral earnings then please feel free to provide comparative figures for those crimes but I believe that we are discussing crimes related to the grooming and sexual abuse of underage girls here are we not?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Musket
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 07:36 AM

Bridge's use of the resistor code takes me back to when I was at college, (ex colliery electrician for my sins) and the lecturer using the BBROYGBVGW acronym. A black colleague in the other class related that the BB became Bad Boys for his class.

These were outrageous then, never mind now. But they were also socially acceptable in most circles hence I remain unsurprised that some older people on this thread see no problem with voicing the prejudice that formed part of their background and experience. No difference between that and other cultures teaching that infidel women are expendable. Some are shallow enough to believe it, most are mature enough to see through it.

DtG mentions being stopped a lot when younger. Many years ago, I worked night shift but a Friday night was always 5.30pm till 12.45am, in order not to bugger up your weekend. So, as a young lad driving through the town centre at 1.30am on a Saturday morning, I was constantly stopped and breathalysed. Profiling does happen, and it is based on risk. Funnily enough, I was sometimes stopped, but once they saw the wet hair and "eye liner" asked if I worked at the pit and apologised for stopping me..... Most of my older colleagues rarely got stopped.

Stephen Lawrence's brother, a teacher in his '30s, said last week that he gets stopped and questioned at least monthly for no reason. Makes you think, it really does...

Not that agreeing with Bridge was ever part of my agenda you understand.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 07:33 AM

Don, you are claiming that there are lots of cases of non-BP gangs convicted of trafficking children, but not being reported.

Why would Left Wing and Liberal media do that.

One journalist tried to make that point in the Guardian a few months ago, but he could not produce a single case.
Instead he produced lone white paedos which we all know about and which had been reported anyway.
We had a thread about it.

So Jim and Don, why do all of the string of such cases involve mostly BPs?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 07:33 AM

""People who know about the culture said it led to the pattern of offending.
I see no reason to dismiss their opinions, but I really do not care why they offend.
There is certainly no excuse for it.

Now Jim, why do all these cases involve mostly BPs?""

1). Those same people made a point of saying very clearly that ""no cultural conclusions should be drawn"", yet that is exactly what you choose to do. It is your opinion, not theirs.

2). There is, as you say, no excuse for it......No matter who, or what, the culprit is.

3). These cases do not involve many British Pakistanis, nor do they involve mostly British Pakistanis, but those which do involve British Pakistanis are the ones which most often get the attention of our gutter press.

And, since you don't seem to get "hints", I have given them back the humanity you attempt to strip away by reducing them to BPs.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 07:21 AM

Aha - A glimmer of reason maybe? I would accept that the rate of conviction amongst the Moslem population is almost twice the national average due to policing methods.

Richard - Do you think that is feasible? We know for certain that certain 'profiles' are more prone to arrest because they are more likely to be questioned. Is this happening with the Asian population as well as those who are black now?

Funnily enough I experienced a very minor version when I was a young motorcyclist. I must have been stopped and checked out at least twice a week back in the early 70s. Never been stopped in a car or as an older motorcyclist. Unfortunately when the police are measured by arrest rate they will always go for what is seen as the 'easy' option. Whether it is right or not!

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 07:12 AM

""I keep saying be very careful with this statistic, Jim. It seems to be almost twice the national figure in 2006 of 2000 convictions for paedophillia in the non-moslem population of 57 Million.""

Dave, you keep referring to paedophilia, which (although there may be a few examples among this gang) is a different crime and much less prevalent than grooming of underage girls.

Paedophilia only relates to prepubescent children.

Grooming encompasses ages up to seventeen or eighteen, so your paedo figures don't equate to the cases currently under discussion.

Another point which Keith & Co don't want to hear is that cases of grooming and trafficking of young girls are dealt with in the courts every day of the week all over the UK, but the ones that make the Media get up on their hind legs are exclusively those involving the current Media whipping boy, the Muslim.

They can't openly make racist comments any more, so, like Keith and Ake, they gleefully jump on anything which supports their bias and can be called "NEWS!"

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 07:07 AM

I am vaguely reminded of the strange cults (some nominally Xtian) which encouraged conversion by "flirty fishing".

Anyway, I was discussing something vaguely similar (actually the prevalence of paedophilia which I think is very rare) with my girlfriend just the other day and she was adamant that the "community" in Catford (then pretty much a BNP area, was her experience)where she was brought up could identify about 200 local paedophiles - mostly known to the police but not convicted, without exception white, and many very specifically interested in her. She has a lovely skin tone - not white.

I suspect that the usual suspects here and the police (also verylargelywhite) see what they want to see - the old mnemonic for the colour codes of resistors.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 07:01 AM

Jim, they all said it was due to aspects of culture, e.g. attitudes to females, courtship practices (or lack of), arranged marriages, etc.
Our own Eliza made the same points.
Don, do you think I am pretending not to know much about that culture?
How much do you know?

People who know about the culture said it led to the pattern of offending.
I see no reason to dismiss their opinions, but I really do not care why they offend.
There is certainly no excuse for it.

Now Jim, why do all these cases involve mostly BPs?

And yes, saying most offenders are BPs does not mean most BPs are offenders.
I always acknowledged that they are not.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 06:53 AM

""Rape must be taken as an extremely serious offence, no matter of what race, religion or culture either the victims or the offenders are. Any other approach is by very definition racist and discriminating.""

And that Eliza, in two sentences, encapsulates exactly what the majority of this forum have been trying to get across to the anti Muslims for three years. Well said!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 06:47 AM

""Do not try to stigmatise me over the culture thing.
I only repeated what prominent and eminent members of the BP community stated, that cultural factors led to that abuse.
I myself have no knowledge of the culture.""

You really ought to have that "Get out of jail free" mantra tattooed on your forehead so that people would know that there is no possibility of real debate with you.

It covers your cowardly arse very neatly to have what the USA calls "plausible Deniability".

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 06:44 AM

200 nationwide out of a population of 3,000000

I keep saying be very careful with this statistic, Jim. It seems to be almost twice the national figure in 2006 of 2000 convictions for paedophillia in the non-moslem population of 57 Million.

No-one has, as yet, brought anything to the table which explains why the incidence of this crime amongst the Moslem population is double what it should be. Can you enlighten us maybe?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 06:29 AM

"Since then there has been a string of dreadful cases going through the courts, all involving BPs."
Less than 200 nationwide out of a population of 3,000000
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 06:24 AM

"I believed it because those people were saying it, like the weather forecast."
Then you have lied, and you continue to lie.
"Blatant lie Jim.
I stated, REPEATEDLY, that it was "not my opinion."

No politician or "prominent person" has ever made such an outrageously racist statement because:
A   They would be committing political suicide to do so
B   They would be breaking the law by inciting racial hatred and would stand a good chance of being prosecuted.
You are fully aware of this fact so you continue to lie; you have yet to provide one single example of this, yet you continue to make such a claim - it is simply not true.
I persist in pointing out your gutter attack on a whole gender of an ethnic minority (and will continue to do so) because I believe it represents the source of many of the arguments here – that there are communities in Britain whose culture makes them inferior to the point of degeneracy – a threat to our way of life.
The last to put this into words was Powell the Arch-Scumbag whose "Rivers of Blood" speech led to his being disowned by his own party and big cast into the wilderness of Ulster Loyalist politics – no better place for him.
The "degenerate culture" idea is certainly not new. I can still remember after the 'Windrush' days, being told that West Indians not only instinctively lusted after white women, but they were so abnormally physically endowed that they could seriously damage, or even kill any woman they laid hands on (of course, West Indian women were built to manage such abnormalities).
Jim Carroll
PS Who on earth believes the weather forecast?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 04:24 AM

Me below.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 04:20 AM

DtG - "I do not know if this is true or not but I have no reason to disbelieve you. However, your point makes things somewhat worse if anything. What you seem to be telling us is that they target any non-moslem girls. Is that correct?"

Dave, naturally, like the rest of us, I can only read what materials are out there about this type of crime and form my own 'suppositions' from them. I can't say that I'm 'correct' on anything. That said, I had a quick hunt online to try to find something to support statements made in my previous post for you. Here's an article from the Times of India (there may be other sources out there if you want to look further) which might be of interest:

QUOTE: "Feeling emboldened by Straw's statement, UK's Hindu and Sikh organizations have also come in open and accused some Pakistani men of specifically targeting Hindu and Sikh girls. "This has been a serious concern for the last decade," said Hardeep Singh of Network of Sikh Organizations (NSO) while talking to TOI on Monday.
Sikhs and Hindus are annoyed that Straw had shown concern for White girls and not the Hindu and the Sikh teenage girls who have been coaxed by some Pakistani men for sex and religious conversion.
"Straw does other communities a disservice by suggesting that only white girls were targets of this predatory behaviour. We raised the issue of our girls with the previous government and the police on several occasions over the last decade. This phenomenon has been there because a minority of Islamic extremists view all 'non believers' as legitimate targets," said director NSO Inderjit Singh.
Targeted sexual offences and forced conversions of Hindu and Sikh girls was not a new phenomenon in the UK, said Ashish Joshio from Media Monitoring group.
"This has been going on for decades in the UK . Young Muslim men have been boasting about seducing the Kaffir (unbeliever) women. The Hindu and the Sikh communities must be commended for showing both restraint and maturity under such provocation," he added.
Hardeep said that in 2007, The Hindu Forum of Britain claimed that hundreds of Hindu and Sikh girls had been first romantically coaxed and later intimidated and converted by Muslim men."

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-01-10/pakistan/28365413_1_sikh-communities-hindu-and-sikh-white-girls

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 03:45 AM

Yes Jim.
I believed it because those people were saying it, like the weather forecast.
Not my opinion as I stated many times in the next few posts.

I do not know or care anything about that culture, nor if that culture leads to this crime, and I am not going to play this silly game with you again you sad person.

That was three years ago and the pattern of offending was already clear.
Since then there has been a string of dreadful cases going through the courts, all involving BPs.

You think it is all a huge coincidence?
Fine, but you are alone.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 03:28 AM

"Blatant lie Jim.
I stated, REPEATEDLY, that it was "not my opinion."
Why do you insist on lying about something that's on record?

"Muslim Prejudice
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 07:10 AM
Don, no one on this thread has claimed any of those things.
Don I do now " believe that all male Pakistani Muslims have a culturally implanted tendency" but only because of the testimony of all those knowledgeable people, and always acknowledging that only a tiny minority succumb.
Do you dismiss all that just because it does not fit your preconceptions, or do you have some powerful evidence to the contrary that you have not shared with us?"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 02:36 AM

Hey Steve - My post was not conjecture. It was based on the conjecture in CS's post. Which was probably based on someone else's conjecture...

If you get three conjectures in a row don't you still win?

:D tG

BTW - 100!

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 08:18 PM

Trouble is, achy, Dave's post is mere conjecture. That's like Andy Murray having a dream about beating Roger Federer, waking up and claiming game, set and match to his mum. What it says about you is that you'll take anything anti-Muslim on board, uncritically and with glee, declaring game over. Actually, it says even more about you, but let's just see for now how this pans out, shall we?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 06:23 PM

Game set and match Dave!

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 05:33 PM

OK, CS

I don't think Pakistani / Muslim based gangs, have always targeted 'white girls' in particular.

I do not know if this is true or not but I have no reason to disbelieve you. However, your point makes things somewhat worse if anything. What you seem to be telling us is that they target any non-moslem girls. Is that correct? They use this awful crime to ensure that any girl not of their own religion is shunned by her own society. Yes? Sorry, but that makes them even sicker than I thought. To do this is bad enough. To do it in the name of religion is preposterous.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 05:04 PM

I agree Al.
The depravity in these cases is sickening.
There have been so many through the courts now.
Almost all the offenders are linked by ethnicity.
Some of us think it significant.
Some of us think it is a coincidence.
We are not going to agree, so let's drop it.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 04:39 PM

Can't see much more point in discussing this.

People are getting too worked up about a situation none of us can affect.

We are what we are.

America has been telling itself that problems can be solved by a man with a gun, since the first Wild West comics in the 19th century. its part of their culture = they believe it.

Ireland has been telling itself that violence is in the fabric of its being, political violence has forged its identity - Seamus Heaney writes poems about it. The national anthem is The Soldier's Song.

Two generations and less ago, many UK citizens were living in villages on the Indian sub continent - believing all kinds of weird stuff.

Eventually they'll get the hang of living in England. Its probably not going to be paradise for them (just as it isn't for us) but its probably one of the best deals going.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 04:22 PM

DtG - "We are also still not addressing why the Moslem gangs target young white girls while the other gangs - Be they East European, British, Yardies or Triads seem quite happy to target any females."

From various anecdotal sources I have seenin reading around this topic, it would seem that Sikh and Hindu girls were the first victims to be targeted by Pakistani gangs. I have also read that a source of serious racial tensions and resultant violence between Sikhs, Hindus and Pakistanis in this country, particularly during the 90's, were reputed campaigns by groups of young Pakistani Muslim men forcibly converting young Sikh and Hindu girls to Islam by seducing, beating and/or raping them, which - as these men know - makes their victims unmarriageable and often outcast according to the standards of their own communities - thus leaving them with no-where else to turn, but back to their abusers.

I'm not sure to what extent, if any, practices like raping a young Hindu woman to induce a 'forced conversion' are linked to the practices of gangs such as these today, perhaps not at all, but all I'm getting at is that from what little I understand, while the bulk of present day victims may be white, I don't think Pakistani / Muslim based gangs, have always targeted 'white girls' in particular.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 03:31 PM

but it doesn't matter - you put it forward as "my opinion"
Blatant lie Jim.
I stated, REPEATEDLY, that it was "not my opinion."

It was the opinion of all those eminent BP commentators.
You can claim it was not their opinion if you like.

I am happy to dispel your concern.
I have no opinion or any knowledge about BP culture.
I do not care if they do it for cultural reasons or not.
I just want them to stop.

Now Jim.
How many non BP cases of this crime can you recall?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 03:04 PM

"If 200 have been convicted, how many more are out there?"
We can only make an assessment on crimes we know about, not what might happen in the next five, ten - however many years.
Throughout the whole of Britain, (Muslim population 3,000,000) with not even a suggestion that there is any connection between them, 200 is a minuscule number.
Not all of these cases include the pimping of girls, some of them are acts of individual underage sex rather than procurement.
You would't even be right if these people were the only ones committing these offences, but despite claims here, these crimes are not exclusive to Muslims - seducing a woman, young or old in order to pimp her has been the long-standing practice of sexual predators, and recognised as such – our scabloid press (like our resident Islamophobe) has chosen to concentrate only on Muslim criminals.
Crimes of this nature have been present throughout history and all over the world for as long as sex has been a marketable commodity.
"I only repeated what prominent and eminent members of the BP community"
No you didn't, you failed to produce one single quote - but it doesn't matter - you put it forward as "my opinion" - it is an outrageously racist statement, making you a...... guess what?
Jim Carroll"

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 02:49 PM

Good points Don and all. There are no figures which tell us about the prostituation and trafficing so, as you say, there is no real comparison to be made. I still say though that, working purely under the KNOWN figures, those for underage sex and grooming, my comparisons stand.

Which means, Jim, that you really need to stop quoting your 200 cases in a population of 3 million. Yes, it is low, but is is still twice the number of the 2000 cases in the population of 57 million non-moslems. And that is a significant differernce. We are also still not addressing why the Moslem gangs target young white girls while the other gangs - Be they East European, British, Yardies or Triads seem quite happy to target any females. These gangs may be evil - But at least they are not racialy biased like the Moslem ones!

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 02:43 PM

Less than 200 convictions from a population of 3,000,000 is only a "pattern" to those who would wish to make it such

There have been a string of such cases that have reached the courts.
Everyone involved mostly BPs.
That is the pattern.
Workers in the field and local MPs say there have been many, many more cases over many years that follow the same pattern.

Do not try to stigmatise me over the culture thing.
I only repeated what prominent and eminent members of the BP community stated, that cultural factors led to that abuse.
I myself have no knowledge of the culture.
They have.
They grew up in it and live in it.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 01:46 PM

Agree CS. And 'culture' can encompass modern teenage culture in UK, where girls are seen merely as sexual oblects by lads, videoed and their photos passed around. There is a distinction between culture, race and religion. But sadly all three can have a bearing on how women are regarded and how rape is (or isn't) dealt with. I still feel that strong laws stringently enforced can do much to prevent abuses. Homophobia and racism have been addressed by legislation here in UK and the result is a lot less of both. Rape must be taken as an extremely serious offence, no matter of what race, religion or culture either the victims or the offenders are. Any other approach is by very definition racist and discriminating.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 01:34 PM

Sadly, the most effective way of being racist is to come out with racist generalisations.

Using the comments of bigots to justify your stance doesn't help either.

I'd stick to home made guitars and astronomy myself. More credibility and less chance to embarrass myself....

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 12:41 PM

Brain, as Eliza put it early on this thread abuses against women occur worldwide in all kinds of countries. It isn't just a 'Muslim' thing by a long straw. About 80% of the population of South Africa would consider themselves to be a member of the Christian religion, and yet South africa is also known as 'the rape capital of the world', it's a place where a young girl has a better chance of being raped than of learning to read.

Where I will likely differ from some other contributors to this thread is that I tend to believe that culture plays an important role in both collectively held beliefs about women (how they should act, what they should wear etc.) and to what degree physical and sexual abuses against women are either actively sanctioned or quietly condoned within particular communities.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Brian May
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 11:56 AM

To Whom It May Concern

Assuming your figures to be correct . . . that's 200 CONVICTED criminals who appear to working in gangs.

Like it or not, it appears to be a pattern and my apparent racist bigotry seems to be shared, if you bother to look, at the instances in the links posted by Keith of A, just because you don't like him or me or Akenaton, doesn't mean that what is being said is wrong.

If 200 have been convicted, how many more are out there? What I find most objectionable, and it seems to have missed your notice, is their attitude - a MUSLIM attitude that seems to regard women of any ethnicity as second class citizens. I resent that and that is why I keep pointing out that it seems to go with the territory. It seems to ring a bell with the Nazi ethos of inferior races and is unacceptable.

It's not MY attitude, its THEIRS. But you keep writing our opinions off as racist - which you will anyway. Sad fact is, you will eventually see because this is a growth problem. I sincerely hope that none of yours, or people YOU know are affected because that'll wreak havoc in your world when you finally realise how blinkered you've been.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 08:55 AM

Just a question really.   

Most commentators appear to be aware that repressed males become frustrated males and when culturally you are taught that females are different to the point of not sharing your day with them, it can be a problem. When females from other cultures are seen by those who teach you such things as sub human it becomes a huge problem. When the ignorant teachers invoke religion as the difference, it can lead to these horrendous situations.

However, to say that a minority of Muslims is about as useful as pointing out that BNP membership tells you something about white males. Or the number of ginger people who support SNP.

Christian teaching here in mainstream UK is that women are not worthy of responsible jobs in churches and gay people are not worthy of marriage.

As a result it is seen as acceptable to say so. Relate that to a poorly educated young man from a Pakistani family whose role model is a poorly educated imam who knows how to relieve sexual frustration without contravening his interpretation of Scripture and look at the horrendous results.

Then wonder why rational thinking precludes invoking religion to disguise more secular bigotry. ..

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 08:54 AM

"The particularly horrific abuse that is the subject of this thread does show a pattern in the offending."
Less than 200 convictions from a population of 3,000,000 is only a "pattern" to those who would wish to make it such - which is exactly why those working with the victims warned against drawing any racial or conclusions - aimed at people like you.
Claiming "all male Pakistanis are implanted..." is to accuse them of cultural degeneracy - want me to pull up the quote?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 08:12 AM

Don.
If Akenaton and Keith A really share my disgust with the criminals and concern for the victims, they might try applying that disgust and concern across the spectrum of abuse,

Who is not disgusted by child abuse Don.
Most occurs within families, and neither race nor culture nor ethnicity nor religion have anything to do with it.

The particularly horrific abuse that is the subject of this thread does show a pattern in the offending.
You can not be suggesting that such horrific crimes would not be reported if the perpetrators were not from a minority group.
How many such cases can you recall?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 07:29 AM

Jim.
Neither I nor anybody else ever claimed that all priests were guilty,
Obviously, and no-one has claimed all Pakistanis (BPs) are involved either.
Obviously it is a small minority.

their/your disgusting claims of "cultural degeneracy"
It is a lie that anyone claimed or said "cultural degeneracy" Jim.

There was certainly a culture within the catholic Church that allowed abuse to go on.
I have quoted members of the BP community who have stated that cultural factors are behind this abuse.
I wouldn't know, but see no reason to dismiss their lifelong experience and knowledge.
Why do you dismiss it Jim?
Don?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 07:04 AM

""I would add however, we aren't simply concerned with "young females working as prostitutes" but specifically the *sexual slavery and trafficking of underage girls*""

I agree C.S. and most of those prostitutes are groomed while underage and vulnerable, so despite the racial agenda of certain people, there is not sufficient evidence available to justify claims that grooming of underage and vulnerable girls is a "Muslim Crime".

It is the racism exhibited in the way they seize on any and every chance to denigrate that particular group which sickens me.

These men and all others who indulge in abuse are the lowest of the low and deserve to rot in jail for ever. They are criminals first and foremost because of what they do, not because of their race or religion (which our resident antis seem to wrongly believe are one and the same).

If Akenaton and Keith A really share my disgust with the criminals and concern for the victims, they might try applying that disgust and concern across the spectrum of abuse, rather than tagging "Muslim" onto every comment.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 06:31 AM

DonT - "You would need to know how many young females are working as prostitutes, having been groomed in exactly the same fashion by non Pakistani, non Muslim males, and factor them into your calculation."

Yes, this is the crux of it. The data isn't available in regards to internal trafficking, it's a newly identified crime in this country.

I would add however, we aren't simply concerned with "young females working as prostitutes" but specifically the *sexual slavery and trafficking of underage girls*

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 06:18 AM

"that it was not significant because most priests were not involved."
Neither I nor anybody else ever claimed that all priests were guilty, and certainly not "culturally implanted" to make them paedophiles, nor did we attempt to link their crimes to their beliefs.
Clerical paedophelia has been a known fact of life for generations and there is ample evidence to prove this. No-one here has produced one shred of evidence to back up their/your disgusting claims of "cultural degeneracy" but there has been ample evidence to the contrary which you and your 'band of brothers' continue to ignore.
Stop making this a one-to-one, address your arguments to us all.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 06:13 AM

""Now, I will be the first to admit that this argument could be wrong. My figures could be up the wall for umpteen reasons and I would love someone to prove me wrong. Can anyone do that?""

The only issue I would take with that is that you need to widen your approach.

You are equating these cases with cases of paedophilia and they are not necessarily the same. You would need to know how many young females are working as prostitutes, having been groomed in exactly the same fashion by non Pakistani, non Muslim males, and factor them into your calculation.

This figure is simply not available, so your comparison fails.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 06:06 AM

DtG - "I am assuming that the 200 convictions in in a set period - A year maybe? Or is it since time began?"

I really have no idea how many 'Muslim' men may have been convicted of sexual assault against minors in this country 'since time began', but as Jim correctly notes below, despite many reports and complaints being made to police (for something like twenty years in fact) until *very* recently indeed, sexual crimes by gangs of predominantly Pakistani origin against underage girls in the North in particular, were simply not acted upon by police and as such, also until very recently, will not be properly represented in any long-term conviction stats.

We have also been told by those working with the victims of these gangs, that current convictions for the internal trafficking of young girls also represent the "tip of the iceberg" in terms of the likely true volume of vulnerable girls being abused by gangs of men in this fashion, all over the country.

Even though these crimes are finally being addressed by a previously reluctant police force and the convictions against these pricks have now started rolling in, due to the slow nature of our judicial system, I'd guess that the true volume of these crimes probably won't be represented on any stats for at least a couple more years.

As such, unfortunately I don't think that stats can really give us any solid data concerning demographics at present. With respect of data, I think we really have too little knowledge of the full picture for stats to help us to come to any helpful conclusions. The testimony of both victims and those who have worked with the victims of gangs perpetrating these crimes are still probably a more reliable source for useful information about these crimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 06:00 AM

""Now I don't have any of the figures necessary to say whether the OP's assertion is correct in saying this is more common with Muslim prepetrators than any other group, but it seems a perfectly reasonable thing to analyse the court records and see if there is any statistical significance to the claim and if so to act upon it.""

Quite right DMcG, and the fact that is being ignored is that disaffected girls have been groomed by opportunist males and put to work as sexual slaves since long before the first Pakistani immigrant set foot on British soil.

Also ignored is the fact that the vast majority of new young prostitutes are either groomed British girls or Eastern European imports run by Eastern European men.

Those exploiters' religious orientation is unknown, but it seems likely that they either ignore, or pay lip service only, toward any moral or religious creed.

True, there are now gangs of exploiters who are variously described as Muslim, Pakistani, or both, and certain parties delight in being offered the chance to denigrate those they hate, but the fact is that they are just the ones who happen to be in the news at the moment, not because of their crimes, but because of their origins.

Far from being allowed to get away with it for racial reasons, their activities hit the headlines while East European and British abusers don't even reach local news.

What does that say about this nation?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 05:29 AM

Oh - And of course the other missed point is that it is specifically white girls that are targetted by these gangs. Do white gangs target girls of other colour by any chance? Does anyone have the figures on that?

D.