BS: Muslim men and white girls - again

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 07:13 AM

"It is just that one demographic seems to predominate "
Repeating this without proof and ignoring the proof that you have been given that this is patently not the case makes it a continuing racist lie and puts you on the side of the sword-wielding thugs.
I'll leave you to continue to wallow in our own swill
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 07:09 AM

"well what else would you expect from white working class Englishmen."

For what it's worth it was supposedly a gang 'turf war' style killing over drug sales, and the killers were a mixed group of black and white youths.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 06:29 AM

Fifteen sword waving thugs....well what else would you expect from white working class Englishmen.

I bet their poorly educated racist brains had been inflamed by reading Keith's posts on mudcat.

When will our streets be safe for peace loving Native Americans, Romany gypsies amd IRA men to walk in peace.....I keep asking myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 06:03 AM

They are no different Jim.
It is just that one demographic seems to predominate and, most disturbingly, for whatever reason, the police forces have ignored children's testimony and allowed the abuse to go on for years.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 05:53 AM

You have once again prevented this thread from disappearing into the sewer of Mudcat history that it was headed for and richly deserves to end up in.
You have still not produced one single shred of evidence to prove that the people involved in these crimes are no more than a bunch of criminals no different from those of any other race, faith and culture committing identical crimes throughout Britain today - you have continued throughout to ignore all the evidence provided which proves the contrary.
This morning's Times carries the story of a young Asian lad in Central London butchered by a gang of around 15 sword-wielding thugs.
If this turns out to be yet another race crime garbage threads like this will have contributed to the death of this lad - well done for continuing to keep the flag flying.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 04:44 AM

Court sees evidence provided to police nearly seven years ago.
There will be questions to be answered when this is over.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/jan/25/oxford-child-abuse-rape-trial

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,bigAl Whittle
Date: 28 Jan 13 - 03:36 AM

Why don't we end this racist spew
Jim says none of the above is trew
Ake's had a wee
Wee and spew
A good night out, from one point of view.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Jan 13 - 12:15 AM

How about we end this racist spew by banning/ignoring this thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: TheSnail
Date: 27 Jan 13 - 07:34 PM

Curious as to why Keith gave a link to that rather strange blog instead of the original Daily Mail article that it got its quotes from.

Near the bottom of the article it says -

But he [the judge] said that Rashid knew what he was doing was wrong.

'It was made clear to you at the school you attended that having sexual relations with a woman before marriage was contrary to the precepts of Islam,' he said.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Jan 13 - 03:02 PM

but that is not correct, there are different sects of the muslim religion just as there are different christian denominations.
is it true that all muslim sects teach that all females are worthless. i very much doubt it.
as i understand it and i am not an expert, some muslim sects allocate the amount of wives to a husband on the husbands worth, that would seem to indicate that they are not worthless, but are a direct indicator of a mans material wealth or material worth

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jan 13 - 10:14 AM

Yes. None of the broadsheets ran it.
The judge is not reported as having taken those claims into account, only his immaturity.
It is of interest in that the defendant claims his schooling and upbringing did not prepare him for life in a liberal society.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Jan 13 - 09:56 AM

Always assuming that the linked story is 100% true, and not some highly-spun anti-Muslim distortion of what really happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Jan 13 - 09:19 AM

A perfect illustration of what a bunch of wazzocks the legal profession are. Isn't there something in UK law that says "Ignorance of the law is not a valid defence" or something of the sort?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jan 13 - 08:35 AM

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/news-politics/i-didn-t-know-that-sex-with-a-girl-of-13-was-illegal-t37318.html

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jan 13 - 08:32 AM

An unusual judgement this week.
Not gang related, the girl consented, and the offender was only 18, but he groomed a 13 year old on face book and had sex with her.
He could have expected a custodial sentence but the judge let him go free because he did not know it was illegal, and because his Islamic school had taught him that females were as worthless as "a discarded lolipop."
http://www.rationalskepticism.org/news-politics/i-didn-t-know-that-sex-with-a-girl-of-13-was-illegal-t37318.html

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Jan 13 - 07:29 AM

Don

Ake is entitled to have a we, whenever the mood takes him.

This thread is all piss and wee. Piste and we...

There used to be this seaside postcard. I sent it one of my religious friends and his wife was traumatised.

Two young attractive girls at the seaside pass a young man wwho is wearing very tight swimming trunks.

First girl says, My! what a long pier!
Second girl says, Yes a nice smile as well....

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Jan 13 - 06:01 AM

""Oh yes we WERE!""

There he goes again, thinking the world is following in his footsteps......or is that the Pharaoh using the Royal We?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 06:36 AM

Steve..."
Who can demonstrate that it has been a mistake? We weren't complaining when we could, at long last, get a decent Polish plumber or a Czech NHS dentist a few years back, and we don't moan about the fact that thousands of young women from the EU and beyond are doing the kind of work in our care homes for way under a living wage that we'd rather not do ourselves."

Oh yes we WERE!   at the time I wrote several times about what the then labour govt said on unregulated immigration from Eastern Europe.

"To make this country more competitive in the global market place"

Code for cheap labour......At the time I was roundly abused as a racist in these pages.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 12:26 PM

Don't pay attention when he's obviously piste.....

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Musket
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 11:16 AM

I would make an effort but about to go to the airport to spend a week skiing. So, other than wondering whether this thread will still be there when I get back, you can all go shag Al's pet giraffe for all I care.

As to being respectful, well... sounds rather boring to me. If people won't be respectful to those they stereotype and look down on, why should I treat them with respect? Bad enough having to pretend to be sociable if you meet up with the buggers without offering false courtesy from the safety of a keyboard.

They come over here with their long necks and long eyelashes. Never integrate, you know! Always in their little enclaves in zoos. if they integrated into society, you'd give them time of day but they think blah blah blah ad nauseum.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 07:37 AM

Yes.
I will be more respectful.
I actually have been making some effort already.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 07:30 AM

I dislike any sort of bullying and abuse whether it is sexual or non sexual or internet abuse.
i do not care what religion or colour the abusers are.
whether they are jimmy savile[ who i believe was a so called christian] or a member of some other religion, be it catholic priest or muslim cleric.
i have met both don t and keith a, they both seem to me likeable people, so how about treating each other as you might if you were face to face, it achieves nothing in my opinion to resort to name calling

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 06:46 AM

Who can demonstrate that it has been a mistake?

No-one can Steve.
It is just an opinion, but is now accepted as a legitimate and mainstream view.
Labour now admits it was wrong to allow it to reach such proportions and that ordinary working folk were the victims of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 06:41 AM

I don't like it when Jim and Keith call each other names. Its very near to abuse - rather than argument. And i like to think of both of them as my friends.

I know....hypocrisy. This from the man who told Lizzie to go and shag a giraffe. (don't give a bugger about the Guest - all this rambling bollocks about crocodiles and reptiles REALLY gets on my tits).

I do find Lizzie's all encompassing empathy for obscure corners of the world, in tandem with a tendency to shout at the persons she's actually having dialogue with, as though they're rats arses - well pretty hard to take.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 06:29 AM

""It is the fact that your smug, self-regarding view of what constitutes "discussion" is shared by some of your regular opponents that makes these discussions tiresome and etches away at the contribution Mudcat has made to music.

Regards""

I can't let that one pass. If you are only interested in thew music what are you doing down here.

The BS section exists to remove non music discourse from the music section, so you kind of expect to find little if any music down here.

So, how come you think you have the right to lecture other members and try to control their actions.

I make no secret of the fact that I find Akenaton's and Keith's attitudes disgusting in the extreme, but I don't ask for them to shut up. I don't have the right to do that, so I try my best to persuade them to take a more balanced path.

I would suggest that if you aren't happy with these discussions, don't join them. There's a mile of musical stuff for you above the line. I know that because, unlike some, I also spend time up there.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 06:19 AM

I remember Keith being roundly abused here for daring to suggest that unregulated immigration could turn out to be a mistake.

Who can demonstrate that it has been a mistake? We weren't complaining when we could, at long last, get a decent Polish plumber or a Czech NHS dentist a few years back, and we don't moan about the fact that thousands of young women from the EU and beyond are doing the kind of work in our care homes for way under a living wage that we'd rather not do ourselves. The economic downturn that suddenly made immigrants look less attractive was nothing to do with them. And you don't moan about Spain allowing us to offload hundreds of thousands of our gin-swigging, elderly malcontents on to them, do you?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Musket
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 04:27 AM

Keith, you are right on that.

I must admit to a perverse pleasure in being outraged by some of the, well, outrageous comments and try to reply in kind. I suppose that for many of us, back in the real world we have to be more diplomatic and nod appreciatively when faced with obnoxious views. As someone who investigates as a regulator these days, I have to be seen to be far more "understanding" than my gut instinct would have me behave. Nor indeed was I quite so diplomatic before my retirement as a chief executive...

No, you are right. It is a character flaw, but all the same, it is hugely cathartic...

When Akenaton posts, rather than be dismayed, I see it as an opportunity to highlight how some attitudes, usually bleating about what is wrong with society, show us that such attitudes are indeed themselves what is wrong with society...

Channel 4? Bugger off. Dave all the way................. (Oh, and Discovery, because Dave hasn't bought the rights to Wheeler Dealers yet!)

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 04:24 AM

I remember Keith being roundly abused here for daring to suggest that unregulated immigration could turn out to be a mistake.
He was branded a racist for even making such a suggestion....now every political party has been forced to accept that what Keith was suggesting was true, yet I have seen none of those who did the branding issue an apology.

Myths can easily be presented as wisdom, if we are dumb enough to accept them.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 04:16 AM

I think it is important to be accurate in our discussions.
We are more than ever influenced by the media in our political and social views and this media influence often does not represent the real truth on important issues.
As a nation, we are being dumbed down by the media.....when was the last time you saw a proper serious play on TV.....anything remotely thought provoking requires a half hour trawl through the schedules.

The minority channel BBC 4 is about the only thing worth watching, but it is "no mans land" to most young people.

Popular culture is now a litany of myths.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: MartinRyan
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 04:03 AM

Keith

It is the fact that your smug, self-regarding view of what constitutes "discussion" is shared by some of your regular opponents that makes these discussions tiresome and etches away at the contribution Mudcat has made to music.

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 03:09 AM

I do acknowledge that enjoying these discussions is itself a character flaw.
Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 03:01 AM

Steve, I see where you are coming from, but I promise you I am no kind of bigot.
There have only been three such discussions, and I do not start them.

Someone posts something that I know to be wrong and easily disproved.
It was clear two years ago that BPs were over-represented in this, that there was plenty of evidence, and more would come rolling in.
It did, but still some had to deny it for non rational reasons.

Al had it right.
It is wrong and must be stopped, but there are likely to understandable causes and no reason to demonize a whole community.

Jim posted that "No Traveller" signs are common throughout Britain.
How could I resist?
McGrath had it right.
There are many issues of prejudice and discrimination to rail against, but the signs have gone.

There is absolutely no question that MSMs are at much greater risk of STIs, so I had fun with the deniers.

Another less clear cut case, that Israel is a terrorist state.

The only thing that spoils my fun is that, having no case, the other side starts shouting "racist" or "bigot" as if that is a defence.

Anyone who knows me knows that I am not what you think Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 02:53 AM

Never read a post of yours yet that wasn't on the wrong thread. Or planet for that matter. ..

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 09:01 PM

Sorry, posted that on wrong thread.....perhaps a mod could please remove it.

Steve....get a grip.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 08:56 PM

Don T.....I understand very what equality under the law means.

In the UK last week the govt announced that, as we were all in this financial mess together, child allowance to high earners should be cut.
The next day it was revealed that if these high earners payed more into their pension funds and brought their take home earnings under £50 thousand pounds per annum....they could continue to claim child benefit.
The law says that all citizens should be treated equally regarding benefit rights, but low earners require all of their take home earnings to live and are unable to manipulate the system as high earners do.

This is one example of "equality under the law"

Instead of wasting time and energy on the "marriage" rights of homosexuals, most of whom do not wish to be married in any case, perhaps we should be scrutinising the real inequalities which are becoming more and more obvious under the present system.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 08:46 PM

It would be a good idea, akenaton, to speak for yourself and not for other posters. I have had many an issue with Don, but he is a direct, from-the-heart, honest poster with decent, humanitarian views. You may think he's abusive (he can be a bit knockabout at times, but who am I...), but that is too strong a term in my opinion. If you feel got at by the likes of Don, you should reflect on the fact that the views you are so wont to express under your pseudonym are regarded by many people here, me included, as extremely abusive toward the masses of people you choose to denigrate, in your case gay people. If you feel abused by Don, and you're right, then that's one person abused. In many of your posts, you abuse millions of perfectly decent people. Your offence is no less vile just because you don't know all their names.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 08:27 PM

I think what Martin means, is that you are a personally abusive poster Don.

We all have different opinions, but some of us can behave here in a civil manner.
As Keith often says, address the issues without the name calling or abuse. You or I have no way of knowing what motivates other members to post here.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: MartinRyan
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 06:37 PM

Don

At no stage did I suggest you held or expressed racist views.

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 06:30 PM

""DonT

Mmmmm.... The pot calling the kettle non-white? ;>)>

Reagrds""

It's easy to prove that point Martin. All you have to do is find one single racist or homophobic comment from me and you're homw and dry.

When you fail, an apology would be nice.....but very unexpected!

Don T. (who is now out of this place).

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 03:58 PM

Keith, I've met many people who say "I'm not a racist, but..." and even one or two who say "I've got nothing against gays, but..." You are firmly in both categories I'm afraid. There are years of posts here that demonstrate it. You may never, in your view, have said anything "overtly" racist or homophobic. But you do have a serial and unhealthy habit of dominating discussions involving both topic areas, seemingly your main foci in life. And you do always seem to side pretty clearly with the kind of people who we all know are racist or homophobic. It's no good bleating that you're not and claiming that people don't respond to your posts. That's just sidetracking. Now, having said that, I'm giving over as well, before some bugger tells me to.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 02:34 PM

One thing people object to is personal abuse instead of discussion.
There is no racism or homophobia in my posts.
I oppose them too.
Why not just respond to what people post instead of demonising them?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: MartinRyan
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 11:24 AM

DonT

Mmmmm.... The pot calling the kettle non-white? ;>)>

Reagrds

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 11:09 AM

I've had enough of this crap.

Moderate minded people who oppose your racism and homophobia are being tarred with the same brush, and accused of harming this forum along with the likes of you.

I don't give a toss any more. You go ahead and turn this place into the kind of shithole you will feel comfortable living in.

But you won't find many wanting to join you.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 06:01 AM

I do not lie Jim.
I do and did believe that all those people were right.
Why would anyone doubt.
But, like a weather forecast or a cancer diagnosis, you might believe it but it is not your opinion.
That requires some knowledge.

Unless you accuse me of lying again, I will leave you two in denial.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 05:57 AM

Not true.
I have neither lied nor "fessed up" to anything.
"but it doesn't matter - you put it forward as "my opinion"
Blatant lie Jim.
Yes Jim.
"I believed it because those people were saying it, like the weather forecast."
You now appear to be lying about lying.
This is now embarrassing, you appear to have abandoned any form of self respect.
I entirely agree Martin - given over.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 04:58 AM

Straw and all the people you have used as 'witnesses' all warned against using these events to draw race/cultural conclusions

Not true.
None on my list did.
Straw actually blamed it on aspects of culture.

You have already fessed up to serially lying about the male Pakistani population -
Not true.
I have neither lied nor "fessed up" to anything.

We have been over all this so many times.
We should give it up.
You and Don are never going to accept there is an issue, but you are on your own.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: MartinRyan
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 04:37 AM

For fuck's fake, lads, give over!

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 04:32 AM

"Jim, this is why I believe BPs to be over-represented in this crime."
All those are utter gibberish as evidence -- there is nothing to link them with either the culture or race of those concerned - that is why you have produced no verification whatever to make them such.
They are your opinions and nothing more - and ones I would expect from you and people like you
Straw and all the people you have used as 'witnesses' all warned against using these events to draw race/cultural conclusions, and the fact that you continue to ignore this indicates that, while you are fully aware of this, you are deliberately avoiding it for your own agenda - you are using the behaviour of a handful of criminals to smear whole racial and cultural groups
These crimes are in no way different from those of criminals in any other community and from any other ethnic background, making the overwhelming racial group in Britain committing them the indigenous one - you have been given the evidence for this and refuse to even acknowledge it, which underlines you despicable racist bigotry and your open dishonesty.
You have already fessed up to serially lying about the male Pakistani population - why not go the whole hog and either disprove the evidence, or accept it?
Surprise us and answer a question honestly.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 02:54 AM

Don, Jim said "Simple - produce your evidence to disprove all that which has been put up" so I did.

He also said"And you've still to explain why Jack Straw and all the rest of your "experts" were so wrong in warning that this was not a racist/cultural issue" but that was wrong.
Jack Straw said it WAS a cultural issue, and all the cases I listed, hundreds or thousands of individuals, all reported abuse by BP gangs.

There is no point to this Don.
We have been over all the arguments many times.
You and Jim are never going to admit there is an issue.
I think you are the only ones, so let's give it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Jan 13 - 07:14 PM

""Jim, this is why I believe BPs to be over-represented in this crime.""

No Keith, you're twisting the question to answer what wasn't asked, because you have no answer to what was originally asked.

AS USUAL.

You were asked why you ignored the admonition by those you quoted as the source of your comments on Palkistani culture, ""NOT TO DRAW ANY CULTURAL OR RACIAL CONCLUSIONS FROM THEIR STATEMENTS"".

Once you ignored that admonition, whatever conclusions you drew were ipso facto, your very own conclusions, unsupported by your sources, so why are you consistently trying to make them responsible for your racially and culturally bigotted comment?

Answer the question this time, if you please.........IF YOU CAN!

Don T.