BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: dianavan
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 05:20 AM

A very good story, Carol.

Its good to know that the American spirit is alive and well in New York city!

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 04:59 AM

From the general region. Things were pretty fluid. The Seldjuks come from the Oghuz Turks, who aren't Mongols, but related.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 04:44 AM

El Greko, are you sure that the Seldjuk (Seljuk?)Turks were from Mongolia? My understanding is that all Turkish speaking peoples were/are descended from a separate group of Central Asians unrelated to Mongolians (?)

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 03:45 AM

How do you think most of the classical texts were preserved?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: dianavan
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 12:27 AM

Correction - Most of our early scientific and mathematical concepts were borrowed from the Arabic centers of learning.

Don't forget that included parts of southern France and most of the Iberian penninsula long after the adoption of Islam. Thats when southern Europe was truly multicultural and ideas were shared.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,Shooosh
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 12:11 AM

El Greko is rubbish and big 'ead an all.
True.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 11:10 PM

Here's a nice story...

New York City cabbie returns forgotten jewelry to Montreal businessman

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Shakey
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 08:10 PM

most of our science and math was borrowed from Muslim cultures.

Ugh?

Some, fairly early science comes from muslim countries, plenty actually pre-date Islam. Using the word most is simply ignorant.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: dianavan
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 07:15 PM

Cultures share a common language, David. In that way they pass down their traditions and beliefs. In fact, those beliefs are imbedded in the language.

Traditional art, music and literature is different in every country of Europe. The English may borrow from other European cultures and vice versa but they are not the same culture nor do they share a common history. Speaking of 'borrowing', most of our science and math was borrowed from Muslim cultures.

Where do you think the cradle of modern civilization might be?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 05:49 PM

David Hannam, you claim to share a common heritage with the Portuguese.
I'm sure you do (just as they share it with others, no man lives in a continental vacuum), but when was the last time you read Camoens?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 05:22 PM

Surely a Sicilian has as much (if not more) in common with a Libyan as he does with a Swede.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 05:16 PM

I also reffer to something apart from the siege of Vienna.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 04:58 PM

If it's DH, why should I explain? Thought you knew so much about the culture and heritage of Europe?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 04:58 PM

Read some history, Guest. Scaramouche is no doubt alluding to the siege of Vienna by the Ottoman armies. And the fact that Turkish heritage (provenance, culture, language) is down to the Seldjuk Turks, of Mongolian ancestry. While Austrians trace their heritage to the Von Trapp family of course!

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 04:51 PM

If we are to follow your logic, then the Turks have the same identity and heritage as someone from Vienna

explain

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 04:44 PM

If we are to follow your logic, then the Turks have the same identity and heritage as someone from Vienna. If you can't tell me why then you have no idea about European culture.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 04:42 PM

An Ionian sponge-fisher shares the same identity as a financier from Luxembourg?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 04:34 PM

Europeans do not share the same heritage and identity.

This is the most ridiculous statement i have ever read

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 04:29 PM

Just because people are from the same continent, doesn't mean they share the same customs and beliefs. They did not have the same heritage and identity (whatever that means).

You'll have to think of a better argument than that. You just come across as ignorant.

There is absolutely no doubt that we, in western europe share the same distinct traits that make us so similar. We share:

Common blood-lines.

Cultural Similarities such as architecture, music, arts, science, progressive science, literature.

We share the same faiths, or straints of the same faith.

Our political institutions are similar.

Our history is entwined with our development as a civillization.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 06:59 AM

Istanbul (or Constantinople) was once the most multicultural city in the WORLD and guess what, it worked out just fine.
Our resident BNPer when faced with a short (and incomplete) list of the different sorts that made up his island, without a shared identity, tells me to get an education. Do the BNP have a scholarship programme?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 05:16 AM

The USSR tried to impose a monoculture.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 04:23 AM

Look what you started Sir jOhn. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: pdq
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 07:10 PM

Once upon a time, somebody said "those who repeat history are doomed to remember it".

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 04:21 PM

Oh, I just like history, that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: dianavan
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 03:11 PM

Europeans do not share the same heritage and identity.

Hundreds of examples prove you are wrong.

You are the idiot, David.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 03:01 PM

I told him so 8 posts back, Scaramouche. His response was to call others idiots and uneducated for believing that Europeans have a mix of cultures. Let's face it, he can't very well afford to say "yes, folks, you're right, multiculturalism works, I'll just pop back into the BNP office and rewrite the propaganda"...

Conversion of DH is not what we're after, therefore; it will never happen. I don't know about you, I do it for the fun of seeing how far logic and fact can be twisted to support the BNP positions. It's not proper humour, I know. But it's fun.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 02:50 PM

France, BTW is an example of a multi-cultural state even before the North Africans.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 12:45 PM

What of all the attacks against foreigners, notably the Flemish weavers and Hanseatic merchants?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: dianavan
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 12:32 PM

David - Educate yourself! Take a course in cultural anthropology.

Do you really think the Celts and the Romans had a common culture?

Just because people are from the same continent, doesn't mean they share the same customs and beliefs. They did not have the same heritage and identity (whatever that means).

You'll have to think of a better argument than that. You just come across as ignorant.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 12:04 PM

Oh dear, oh dear. lol.

Please get an education then come back thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 11:17 AM

Oh yes, an East-Anglian fisher shared the same identity as a Flemish weaver, Breton smuggler, Cumbrian reiver, German mercenary, Sephardi merchant, Welsh shepherd, Hebridean pirate, whatnot.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 10:57 AM

Only an idiot would say they didn't share the same heritage and idendity

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 10:47 AM

Only an idiot would say that because they are Europeans they share the same identity or heritage.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 07:13 AM

Surely it is ignorance that is dangerous? An ignorant mind is like a blank canvas upon which anything can be written.
There is, surely, in this 'information rich' age, no excuse for ignorance. I feel that, far too often, ignorance is wilful. In Western culture, at least, far too many people see education as being 'uncool'and willingly embrace ignorance. In Western, and many other cultures, I suspect, some religious leaders and political idealogues rely on the ignorance of others in order to sustain their power bases.
Those who rely on ignorance in order to sustain their power and/or wealth are like parasites on the human race. I believe that it is the political and moral duty of everyone on the planet to educate themselves and others so that we can eliminate these evil leeches forever.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 06:13 AM

Only monocultural states have been stable? What - Hitler's Germany? Mao's China? Shevardnadze's Georgia? Mugabe's Zimbabwe (or Smith's Rodesia before that)? Or the Greece of the Colonels' Junta, with their "Greece for Christian Greeks" slogan in the 1960s?

America, and Australia, and Britain, and my own home country, and Spain, and Italy, and the new South Africa and even France and the Netherlands, and even Belgium with its "Flams Blok" are all multicultural. And they're doing OK - nobody is completely free of problems, not all the time; and their tolerance can be taken advantage of; but as societies they work.

You really must find some new arguments, David - the old ones are frayed at the edge by now.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 05:41 AM

David, you quote others as saying "multiculturalism has failed". That is a nonsense statement, because multiculturalism is not an experiment; it's not something we try to see if we like it. It's a fact of life. The world is multicultural; Europe is multicultural; Britain is multicultural, since the Anglos and Saxons and Normans.

Multi-culturalism has failed, the reason i say this is because the immigration, if it can be called that, that you refer to were of european origin, normans, vikings, saxons, etc, were all of same heritage, identity, culture etc. We are one and the same people.

But when two completely distinct cultures try to merge, all that results is disharmony. No multi-cultural state has ever survived, and historically only mono-cultural states have been stable.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 05:35 AM

David, you quote others as saying "multiculturalism has failed". That is a nonsense statement, because multiculturalism is not an experiment; it's not something we try to see if we like it. It's a fact of life. The world is multicultural; Europe is multicultural; Britain is multicultural, since the Anglos and Saxons and Normans.

It's how it is. And in the modern age, with communications and transport so easy, cross-border movement is high. Sure, when large numbers of people move around, you get some bad ones amongst them too. And you get some brilliant ones; and many hardworking ones. You don't penalise the 999 good ones to save yourself from the one bad one. You have to be more intelligent than that.

Certainly more intelligent than using statements like "Afghanistan and such places". Need I remind you that one of the people killed in the recent London bombings was a young Afghani professional who had fled his home country to avoid the Taliban? Sweeping statements are not arguments for your cause.

Must try harder.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 05:25 AM

I think The Rt. Hon. Sir jOhn from Kingston-upon-Hull meant the title to be silly.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 03:49 AM

saying, get rid of muslims, kill muslims etc, theyre a bunch of terrorists, bunch of suicide bombers, etc.

these people are arse holes and dim-wits

Infortunately, not everyone can be as enlightened as yourself, however, i have never heard anyone talk about killing Muslims, but on the canvassing doorstep, i DO hear a lot of people saying it is time to stop immigration, and that multi-culturalism has failed.

You might not like it, but it's a fact. Another fact, is that the bombers were Muslim, and they intepretated the Koran to suit their agenda that terror bombings and murder were justified.

It is useless to blame all Muslims, as most are hard-working decent people, but when you consider 60% of immigrants coming into the UK are Muslim, and that most of them come from Afghanistan and such places, there is clearly a danger that only a dim-wit would deny.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: s6k
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 09:22 PM

yes, people are saying kill muslims.... you hear these idiot people now and again, either on TV or down the pub, saying, get rid of muslims, kill muslims etc, theyre a bunch of terrorists, bunch of suicide bombers, etc.

these people are arse holes and dim-wits

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 02:15 PM

harpgirl - You said,

"Why have religion in the first place? It's only ever caused death and destruction the world over."

You might say exactly the same thing about money.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 02:09 PM

Well I speak a Semitic language you see so none of this is new. Anyway, Arabic is a beast to pronounce properly.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 01:54 PM

Since I went off topic anyway, let me continue by responding to
Le Scaramouche's comment that "Actualy, Arab names aren't easy to pronounce by Americans".

I agree that we Americans have our own way of pronouncing different names from English and other languages. And I'll go further and say that African Americans have pronunciation traditions that often are different than those of European Americans.

For example, I believe that Americans routinely place the accent on the 2nd to the last syllable of a name. However, there's a difference in how we pronounce the 'a' vowel..as in the name "Tanya"

White Americans- TAN [rhymes with fan] yah

Black Americans- TAHN-yah

****

That "a"="ah" pronunciation by African American is used throughout our vocal music and rhymes. For example, there's a common starting chant for children that goes like this

a one
and a two
and you know what to do

-snip-

In this rhyme "a" is pronounced 'ah' and not like the 'a' in 'say'.

I just thought you might want to know more about this off topic info...


Azizi {ah-ZEE-zee}

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 01:03 PM

Well Azizi, i'm all for open free debate on any issue. I don't believe any subject should be out of bounds of free debate.

I openly welcome the debate on Muslim minority extremists, but the naming of this thread is silly. Are Muslims rubbish, only an idiot would answer yes. So, the thread question basically leads anyone who critisizes Muslim Extremists to be in the extremist catagory. As that person would presumably by his/her critisizm be implying that muslims are rubbish?

It is indeed a silly thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 01:01 PM

Ok, thanks for clearing up the gender of the name.
Article makes a few mistakes, especialy on Isaac which is nothing of the sort. It means 'will laugh' and is pronounced Eetz-khak.
Yeah, I know what a free name is and think Muhammad Ali's is the most ironic.
Actualy, Arab names aren't easy to pronounce by Americans, at least haven't heard them pronounced the right way.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 12:37 PM

Off Topic

Le Scaramouche, "Azizi" is a female KiSwahili name. This name almost certainly came from the Arabic female Arabic name "Aziza". The male KiSwahili and Arabic name is "Aziz".

See this information from Wikipedia:
"Aziz, originally a Syriac word and name, is also an Arabic name, and spans other areas such as Russia. Aziz is translated to Darling in the English language. Aziz is a common name for people from Assyrians to Kurds, and there are many famous people that went by the name Aziz, such as Aziz Karl, a ruthless warrior in the 2nd century. The name Aziz is also close to the Hebrew name Isaac but they two names are not of the same origin. Although now a rare name, it spans from mediterranean areas to Europe and Asia including of Russia, Armenia, and others."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aziz

-snip-

"Azizi" [Aziza] is usually given as meaning "precious". In the late 1960s when I was given this 'free' name, I was told that it meant "one who is rare and precious". In the 1990s-early 2000s several Muslims told me that the name "Aziz' means "powerful [one] or mighty [one]. I have read that the widely used two part name "Adul-Aziz" means "servant of the powerful one" or "servant of the mighty one"-abdul=servant; aziz=powerful. The powerful/mighty one is a referent for God [Allah]. I have also had Muslims tell me that "Azizi" means "darling". These three meanings may actually be related as ,presumably, if a woman serves God {Allah} they would be precious, well loved, and fondly thought of being a "darling".

I suppose that 'powerful/mighty' definition is considered to reserved mostly for the masculine form of this name, and the "precious, rare, darling" part for the feminine. But I like the fact that my name evokes all of these vibrations.

BTW, 'free name' was the term used in the late 1960s, 1970s by African Americans. The term refers to the traditional African and Arabic personal names that were used in place of European and Hebrew personal names which were called 'slave names". Traditional African and Arabic names were adopted in place of these birth names to reflect a hightened sense of pride in African heritage. Usually [afrocentric} African Americans changed their first names and retained their "European" surnames {last names}. However, some African Americans also adopted Arabic or African last names too..

As to why so many African Americans during that time and since have given themselves or their children Arabic names:
1.Islam was part of West Africa as early as the 9th century. And some enslaved African Americans were Muslim
[See Islam in West Africa ]

2. Arabic names [and the Arabic language} were more familiar to
   African Americans than traditional African names/language

3. Arabic names are easy to pronouce, largely conform to African
   American sound preferences and such European practices as having
   a female name end with an "a"

4. Arabic names were popularized by African American [jazz] musicians
   such as Ahmad Jamal and Jusef Latif and prominent sports figures
   such as Muhammad Ali and Kareem Abdul Jabbar.

etc. etc. etc.

Thanks for the question.

[Sister} Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 12:29 PM

bobad - I don't think the Israeli's should "go" anywhere. I do think they must begin to respect their neighbors and stop threatening them with expansion. I also think that they should seek a solution to the Palestinian conflict and quit leaning on the U.S. for support.   

I would like to see the Palestinians and the Israelis living in harmony.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 11:53 AM

No disrespect, but isn't Azizi a male name? it does mean the same as Aziz though doesn't it.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 11:29 AM

I think that the name of this thread is beyond silly. I think it is very disturbing, very negative, and very demeaning to Muslims as a group and to 'Catters as a group.

This does not mean that I believe that all 'Catters or most Catters accept that depiction of Muslims or the Muslim religion, or even think the question is a valid one for consideration. However, IMHO, for this question to even be raised in this manner does not speak well of us.

I'm wondering has there been a comparable thread titled "Are Christians Rubbish?" or "Are Jews Rubbish?"

Given the fact that there is currently rampant fear and bigotry against Muslims, to initiate such a discussion now plays into the hands of those who are just looking for an opening to spead their particular brand of poison.

I regret that this thread provides such an opportunity.


Azizi

PS:

Since some people may question my religious affiliation because they are unfamiliar with my Swahili name {which is similar to an Arabic name}, let me state for the record that I'm not Muslim and have never been Muslim. However, I do know good people of various races who are Muslim.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 10:40 AM

What a silly name for a thread. lol