Bob Brozman legal issues

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Gene- Adelphi/Sunsplash Records & Films, Inc
Date: 09 May 13 - 04:44 AM

May 9, 2013

Post #4 (again, so far so good) However, you might want to copy these posts to a safe "saved" location... it just might be that the "sunspot gods" are merely sleeping....better safe then sorry, many previous posts (by me & others)have disappeared by anomylous(sp?) sunspot activity.

OK, once again where was I, Oh yeah--- My Brozman interfaces circa
approximately 1972-1975- NYC.

I personally.........oops, OH CRAP, one of my other computers started screaming a while ago, which I've been ignoring, shame on me.....

The screaming computer has announced to me that there's "suddenly" a new Brozman thread on the main menu (Brozman on the backbeat).....however, upon examination we discover that it's NOT a new thread, but in fact, it's a five year old thread with only two posts on it dating from June of 2008, not counting MY new post.

It's highly unlikely that either of the original posters, exist anymore, if, in fact they ever did. I've offered a $200 reward to get to the bottom of it!

Do I suspect that one of the moderators here are Pissed, and that this new thread appearing on the main menu above the line, was installed/manufactured by a moderator in order to diminish the impact of this thread? You Betcha Red Rider, ONLY a moderator has the ability to resurrect or, dare I say, MANUFACTURE, such an old thread to "main menu" status, yep you'd better believe it dear friends, that's my opinion, coupled with the Heisenberg "uncertainty Principal" and Accams Razor as my scientific basis! Period!

They've already achieved one of their objectives by dragging me off topic.....Dear friends deal with that bogus red herring as you will, I'd suggest ignoring it, or venting your spleen at the moderators, you know who they are, and only at the moderators.

Speaking of which, I'm at a severe disadvantage here, I don't know who the moderators are, except for SRS & Joe, won't someone here please identify for me the other, on thread moderators, or won't you moderators please identify yourselves so I'll know whose ass to gently caress in the future! :-)

Best for now
Gene R.

PS- Part #5 to follow directly

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Gene- Adelphi/Sunsplash Records & Films, Inc
Date: 09 May 13 - 02:07 AM

May 9, 2013

Post #3 (So far so good)

BTW- Again, please, out of kindness, if nothing else, don't begin the apositional, evicerating counter response postings until I've at least had close to having my say...give me at least a few more posts
before the attacks & responses...I've already been sunspotted to death here----HAVE MOICY! :-)

OK, where to begin/continue...um, OK--- it's really tough to live and relive this stuff over & over again; BOTH the good & bad memories, actually ALL of these memories are defying of separation; and having to relive them in their entirety, over and over again is, in fact, cruel and unusual punishment!!

With that in mind, let me take this opportunity, to state the following: Both this post and all of my following posts, as well as Chapter 18 (in it's subject entirety) in my upcoming book entitled- "A Hard Act To Follow" are NOW Both/all dedicated to Dr. Duck!

In my almost 50 years in the music business I have never had the honor, first hand, of watching/interfacing w/an individual, let alone a Musician of serious stature, who "stood up to be counted"! Duck, believe me, after MUCH soul searching Angst, made the decision of his life----to come out from behind the "Anonimity" of a "Guest" post, and to identify himself as the "Statured" Artist that he is, with the full knowlege, that in doing so could/would absolutely impact BOTH his personal life as well as his professional career.....he made the hardest decision of his life by standing up in public and "telling the truth"! How many of you out there have EVER done such a thing?

I can say, in retrospect, that to much leser extents that I've similarly done such, but it's MUCH easier for a Record Company producer to do such, with little to no consequences, then it is for a Musician to do it with EVERYTHING on the line. I salute you Duck, forever!

How you managed to single-handedly, fend off the "slings & arrows of outrageous fortune"...is quite beyond me... if the sunspots hadn't "Bonked" me, I'd have been there too.

Next post, #4 will address my personal interface with Brozman in the early/mid seventies, and will begin the "Fahey" abuse saga, yep from MY personal experience, and then an even more personal horrific experience ALL with KNOWN Folk/Blues musicians.....umm hear me out, it's horrible, but a necessary documentation of the reality of our
"Folk/Blues" misbelief that our "Folk/Blues" heroes can do no wrong!

Sincerely
Gene R.

Next post #4, follows shortly!

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Adelphi Records- Gene R
Date: 09 May 13 - 12:33 AM

May 9, 2013

post #2 In an on-going sequence of posts which will eventually answer ALL of your questions, and also respond to all, or to atleast MOST of your posts, with particularity, to those posts that I believe to have been "undeserved" personal attacks, posted mostly in the rush of "taking sides", and or out of sheer ignorance. BTW "ignorance" is NOT an accusation, it merely indicates that the "posting" person is NOT aware of the facts, the history, etc. Lord knows, in my 70 years, let there be no doubt whatsoever that I'm guilty numerous times of "Statements" out of ignorance, because I had the full faith & belief that I was ALWAYS right! Duh, I wasn't and NO ONE is....I can explain psychologically how I became of that belief, but suffice it to say, I'm no longer "self delusional" that way! :-)

BTW, please allow me to do several of these short posts before you feel the need to totally evicerate and /or to otherwise cut me to ribbons, before I have my say......um much of my very "serious" (say) has already disappeared from this site due to extra ordinary sunspot activity.....all I want is my "uncensored" say..... much of which ALL of YOU will find, at the very least, extraordinarily mind blowing...
Particularly the "John Fahey" aspects, and the "Backwards Sam Firk" aspects....no shit.....

post #3 to follow shortly

Best
Gene R.

Subject: RE: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Gene -Adelphi
Date: 08 May 13 - 11:27 PM

May 8, 2013

Dear friends & others:

First let me thank, from the bottom of my heart, whomever it was that helped this "old guy" out on the "Obit" thread, in bumping this thread to "above the line", I didn't even know that there was a "below the line" seriously, and I apologize for my ignorance.

I also apologize for being AWOL for these past 24 hours plus, but apparently, the VERY high sunspot cycle caused my 6 (in house) computers to simutaneously crash, when trying to access this site, although interestingly enough, neither of the two house cellphones had a similar crash....hmmmmm modern technology, ain't it great!? "Bonk"!

I'm going to keep each of these update posts short, in the hopes that short posts might get through between the Sunspot flareups...

follow-up post shortly,

Sincerely
Gene R.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 08 May 13 - 08:53 PM

Brozman has had a charity name registered online since 2003-4, he doesn't seem to have a website for it, its in development and is listed on the pdf at his website.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 08 May 13 - 05:52 PM

Here is the link. The quote comes about the 14 and a half minute mark. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64Ua2lNmIK8

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 08 May 13 - 05:49 PM

There is an interesting video interview with Bob that is posted on another site talking about his charity. He speaks about getting donations to give kids instruments they can play. About 14 minutes into the interview, apropo of absolutely nothing he has talked about up until that time, he says: "I hope you don't get sued for me saying this but I believe every time you make a musician of someone, there is one less criminal in the world. Except Michael Jackson." I don't have the video in front of me so it is not an exact quote, but that is basically what he said.

It is a strange comment to make and it comes out of nothing other than his talking about the children he wanted to help. I'm not a psychologist, but I found the interview telling in lew of recent events.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Zitty
Date: 08 May 13 - 04:55 PM

There are indeed some disturbing grey areas in this story..

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,former student
Date: 08 May 13 - 04:08 PM

okay, time for some clarification.



Bob has been playing "bongo drums" with his hands on the "box" (called a cajon, spanish for ...yep, "box") on stage for at least fifteen years.   Not a recent addition.

Haley often accompanied him on his travels.


I'm not saying any of this proves anything, so cool your jets.   Just trying to rein in some of the wilder speculations and theorizing going on.


as to motives: some people on this thread have the best of motives and are genuinely trying to help the victims.   Others are lookieloos at the train wreck, vying with each other to see who can heap the most vitriol on the dead guy.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 08 May 13 - 03:38 PM

I am not sure what the motives have to do with it if people are being totally honest and their motives are non-harmful. What if there was a fire and you put it out. The highest motive would probably be altruism. But perhaps you wanted to be on TV. Perhaps you wanted to get an award. Perhaps you wanted to impress a cute guy. Perhaps you wanted to get points for purgatory. It probably would not matter to the person you pulled out of a burning house what your motives are.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Disgusted in Santa Cruz
Date: 08 May 13 - 03:37 PM

It sure seems like he had the perfect cover for carrying out these acts.
-Rarely played in the USA, due to "expensive travel costs". I'm sure a plane ticket to Singapore is much cheaper than to Ohio.
-Travel alone all over the world, rarely taking his wife along.
-Not bringing/hiring anyone to help with his 15 suitcases and guitars, although I'm sure there'd be young guys that would do it for free. They'd have to stay where he stayed, that'd be no good.
-Constantly staying at the homes of well wishers to "save money", although he was wealthy yet played the poor struggling musician part.
-Create a "charity" to teach young girls to learn the guitar.
-Videos posted elsewhere of his performance just two weeks before his death not only show he hadn't lost anything, but he had also added playing bongo drums with his hands on a wooden box to his act. Not necessary and certainly not something someone with oncoming problems with their hands would start doing. Then he has to selfishly off himself in his own home, making it heartbreaking to be around for his current wife and a tough sell for her should she want to sell it? A selfish act in itself. Noone was/is going to do any documentary on this guy. In the big picture he was a nobody outside of the tiny niche of people that were even aware he existed. Reading between the lines it seems his first wife in this discussion, who had two daughters prior to their relationship, found out after the fact he had indeed molested them as children unbeknown to her. That's crushing for a parent. As a parent with a daughter myself, I can only imagine the guilt she has felt for years for not being aware and preventing this. I can only assume Gary Atkinson has felt the same for many years. I for one am glad these details are coming out. I can only imagine the staggering numbers of potential victims around the world affected by this serial molester over the last 30 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Duck Baker
Date: 08 May 13 - 03:28 PM

Jack - please accept my apologies on that. I know Gene R personally and I like him, but I suppose it's fair to say he can be high-strung. As can I. And oddly enough, most of us would recognize this was an attribute of Bob Brozman's as well.

It's difficult to keep emotions in check, and I'm happy that most people have.

I'm off for some more of those deep breaths!

DB

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Jack Campin
Date: 08 May 13 - 03:08 PM

Duck, I wasn't saying you were part of the lynch mob. You've been admirably sensitive about how you've dealt with this. I had in mind Gene R's tone and the person who suggested that the appropriate response was to call in a TV documentary team.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Duck Baker
Date: 08 May 13 - 02:58 PM

I have stated what my motives are repeatedly. I have actually not said one word against Brozman. And since the families of victims have thanked me and others who are trying to get the word out and to get people not to target them (as has happened several times in this thread), I don't think the idea that we need to examine our motives is particularly compelling, no matter how tidily expressed. THEY think we are helping, others are free to think whatever they like.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Jack Campin
Date: 08 May 13 - 02:39 PM

The prospect of being the focus of a national TV news/documentary and spending the rest of your life with your entire identity defined as "poster child" by the mass media wouldn't be an appealing prospect for most folks either.

The lynch mob mentality isn't about getting the victims anything they might want or need. It's about satisfying the blood-lusts of people who badly need to examine their own motives.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 08 May 13 - 02:17 PM

One obvious reason people wait until the Evil Ones die is that they are terrified. Some have been threatened with loss of family income, harm to their parents, going to hell, and I presume serious physical harm..and the latest known alleged victim is 9??? I encourage everyone to start the day as I do with reading bishop accountability.org and see all that has been done to intimidate children..from a variety of religions. They talked about interviewing Native American abuse survivors and they said they all just shook when talking about it. Take it seriously and do not stand in the way of exposing the truth (and if you make false accusations..as many do in divorce situations.. the sky should be the limit on your punishment). Like I said, we are not worth the carbon in our bodies if we don't..they should just extract it and make a pencil of us and we would be more useful. And if you have ever seen a five year old who has been through this, you know. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 May 13 - 01:06 PM

Is it time for a seque into English Lit 101 to discuss the concept of "unreliable narrator" and "memoir?" Personae created along the way by one conducting a performance career in a public space may be part of the performance. This is to say that there is probably nothing you will read out there in interviews that will give you a smoking gun or lay this charge to rest.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 08 May 13 - 12:49 PM

A multi-millionaire migrant laborer. Now THERE's a concept...

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 08 May 13 - 12:09 PM

http://www.guitarseminars.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=41404#p41404

"I have to work outside the USA to survive and send my daughter to college. I am too old to lose money at work, though I would really love to live in the kind of USA that I could get sufficient work in. I never knew I would grow up to be a migrant laborer from a dying empire, but that is the actual reality."

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 08 May 13 - 11:49 AM



Not to mention the fact that his Post-Industrial Blues CD has song titles like, "Three Families Blues," "People Are Strange," and "Lonely Children."

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Duck Baker
Date: 08 May 13 - 10:41 AM

I just want to add a couple of things quickly.

Kudos to Michael for taking a positive approach re the legacy - that's what we need at this point.

As to how many victims and so on, my understanding is that those involved are trying to work out a comprehensive public statement and finding it tough going. For now, it's a little hard to piece things together but I think we can be very sure that questions about who was threatening legal action of what sort will become somewhat clearer.

Two victim families have identified themselves. I can confirm they are who they say they are, and again invite anyone to contact me directly through my website if you doubt my identity. So THAT much is certain, allegations were made by the Gary Atkinson and supported by Mary Christine. It appears there is also a third party as yet unidentified, and I think reasonable people can assume that the reason for anonymity is because of what the victim in that case is going through. I can't personally confirm this, but that seems to be what's going on.

The comparison to Saville is ONLY that that monster was never "proven guilty," and I really do doubt that any career of sex abuse so monumental as Sir Jimmy's is what we're talking about here. But again, Saville abused HUNDREDS of now-known cases. Rumors circulated, but no one ever dreamed of the extent. The absence of rumors, in other words, proves nothing.

Bob's dad was a very wealthy real-estate broker in NY, more than that I don't know. I don't see it as particularly pertinent but somehow the subject was broached and that much is certainly common knowledge. And by very wealthy I mean very wealthy.

Some people will never believe it and that's their choice. I have heard enough to convince me and then some, but I think I've done what I can with this and I'm going to have to leave it soon as I've got a little tour coming up.

To all those who have expressed support for my going public, I really thank you. I didn't aim to take the job on, but when people were ignoring me because I wasn't identifying myself, I felt there was no choice.

Peace, Duck Baker

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Flash - Austin TX
Date: 08 May 13 - 09:59 AM

--- Interesting to note (but then again perhaps not) that BB's last album was titled "Fire In The Mind" ---

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 08 May 13 - 09:57 AM

Am I correct in understanding that there were 3 alleged abuse victims who have been discussed here? Bob's stepdaughter (Mary's daughter), Gary's daughter, and a 3rd child who is currently 9 years old and is the subject of whatever legal action was underway? And that in the last instance, there were criminal charges pending? Had an actual indictment been issued?

Not trying to stir up trouble, just trying to clarify what has been communicated as the facts of the case.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 08 May 13 - 09:56 AM

That's not quite true though Helen is it? Savile was notorious in gossip in the UK for DECADES before his death. Numerous people reported suspicions to various authorities including the police and nothing was ever done. Perhaps being public friends with Prince Charles and the rest along with the long history of corruption among the UK police might have had something to do with it but I assure you that besides the Welsh story (blindingly obvious to all who read it) and the questioning by Louis Theroux on his program his doings were about as far from secret as is possible. Very clearly he was protected and abetted by people in power - both by fellow pedophiles and by those with financial and other interests in protecting him.

I agree with you and others who urge caution about jumping to conclusions, witch-hunts, etc - but there is a long history of powerful and rich men being protected and allowed to abuse children and much more being revealed weekly. Just look at the cover-ups of the borstals in Florida and Jersey and Wales. So when these sort of allegations are made it pays to watch closely to see whether they had allies and to ensure that those with money cannot use it to buy silence.

Subject: Hey Duck
From: GUEST,Mary Christine
Date: 08 May 13 - 09:49 AM

Clarification- I never had a case against Bob. I wasn't a primary victim. Being vocal was my thing. That said, the actions that went on after I found out, I will keep to myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Helen Roche
Date: 08 May 13 - 09:13 AM

I disagree that 'everyone knew what Savile was up to'. Within the worlds in which he moved (TV, hospital charities, etc) many people were aware of rumours, but nothing concrete. Many people have said since that, if they'd had any proof, they would have spoken up, but they never did have firm evidence. Those who did know for sure - the victims - were afraid to speak, and indeed, what 'evidence' did they have, either? Savile was clever enough and powerful enough (and on occasion, threatening enough) to keep a lid on it all.
Yes, it's tricky, because we don't want witch hunts against the innocent - but there you have it, the danger of waiting for positive, actual proof - and ignoring what we might call the anecdotal evidence. If we haven't learnt a lesson from that saga, then I don't know what to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 08 May 13 - 09:10 AM

"Mary Christine, the ex wife, has long been a pitiable character .."

And you wonder why people have trouble coming forward...

You should be ashamed of yourself blaming the victim.

Has a single member of the family stepped up to refute the charges?

there is your answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Michael Berk
Date: 08 May 13 - 08:27 AM

Spent most of yesterday in shock when I heard about all this.
Over the years I've seen Bob perform countless times and he inspired my guitar playing more than most.
Having spent the evening wondering whether I should even be playing resonator slide guitar (and using many of the techniques that I learnt from him), I'm now of the opinion that it's now become the duty of acoustic slide guitarists to reclaim that particular niche in fingerstyle Blues and so removing Bob's association with the style.
When people think of modern-day Delta Blues, Brozman's name is first on the list for more or less everyone. That's got to change.
I'm not certain it's even appropriate to be discussing music right now given the awful nature of his crimes but for those relatively few musicians that can play the style, it's become more important than ever for us to get out the house and into the bars and clubs to perform.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 08 May 13 - 08:24 AM

Savile's proclivities were so well known in the UK that he was featured as a necrophile/pedophile character in an Irvine Welsh story more than a decade before his death. He was notorious but was a friend of the most powerful people in the country and was protected. Everyone knew what he was up to but nothing was done.

This all seems much more questionable as of yet, but like Savile it appears Brozman was particularly wealthy and well-connected. Did no one really suspect anything if the allegations were true?

Who was his father and what was the source of this wealth? Information on Shep Brozman appears very scant online yet he is described as having been one of the biggest real estate developers in NYC. All a bit mysterious.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Helen Roche
Date: 08 May 13 - 08:22 AM

As for the poster who personally attacks Mary Christine - why not sign your name to your post? Without your name, it's plain cowardly. And will you still stand by it, when more of the story comes to light? You really want to attack the victims here?

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Duck Baker
Date: 08 May 13 - 07:49 AM

Thanks to the fellow I got in a tangle with yesterday for understanding why I flared up a bit. As or the sg guy - he makes it obvious that no one need pay any attention.

And I LIKED the joke about playing blues on a nylon string guitar. Something Davy Graham, Jerry Reed, and Charlie Byrd were all pretty good at. You could trust Charlie, though - can't vouch of the rest of us!   :-)

But the person who attacked Mary Christine - what in hell can that be about? You actually sit there and self-righteously hurl things at someone identifying herself as the mother of a victim here? Wow. Just wow. As I said before, attack me if you must. But you are going to have to live with attacks made towards victims if the allegations bear out (and believe me, much more is being said in private than in public at this point, and I don't think that the statements from the families of victims are just "hearsay," though I understand that unclear allusions to them from people like myself might be). PLEASE don't go there, people. DON'T ATTACK THE VICTIMS.

What is known is that Mary C. and Gary A are who they say they are, and they have communicated that their case was proceeding against Brosman. Until they feel they can tell us more details about the nature of that case, we are all speculating, myself included. If the timing of the impending revelations with the suicide don't raise suspicions, so be it.

I do understand the desire of some to withhold judgment until we hear a fuller explanation from the families of the victims identified so far, but the idea that we can ever get certainly from the legal process is very naive. I repeat that Jimmy Saville abused hundreds of kids over the years and was NEVER proven guilty of anything. Nor can Brozman be proven guilty,

It helped me a great deal to talk to a family member who is a practicing psychologist, just to get a handle on things. Leaving aside the fact that most of us knew Bob but not the victims or their families, what is known about predators is that they target the vulnerable. The fact that they are likely to come across as more apparently believable than the people they target is necessary to their survival, and we have seen that over and over and over.

Anyway, I shouldn't have gotten into trying to convince anyone of the facts of the case since even the most telling things I've heard are not a matter of public record. There are always going to be some who refuse to believe. My aim has been to let the community know that many in the musical community have accepted the allegations as true, and apologize for not being clearer at the outset that it is largely because of having heard things that aren't being made public yet. It seems reasonable that people could say, well, that being the case, I'll withhold judgment.

But it is NOT reasonable to suggest that people in my position should not speak out. It seems amazing in this day and age that such a thing even be suggested, especially here in Britain, where it doesn't seem a week goes by without another story of serial molestation getting the headlines. Some have gone to court, yes. Saville didn't, but others have - but only after decades of continued abuse. Did people who held their tongues about suspicions act responsibly? Not in my book. And the point here is not that the perpetrator is no longer among us, but that the alleged victims and their families are. And they are reading every word you post.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Helen Roche
Date: 08 May 13 - 06:59 AM

*that they will be heard = that the victims will be heard

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Helen Roche
Date: 08 May 13 - 06:57 AM

> How is the rampant hysteria that is this discussion
> helping to identify other potential victims or to encourage them to come forward?
> Ask yourselves honestly how the things you are typing help accomplish that goal
> that we can all agree on.

Because it counters the hagiographic obituaries and articles that were all over the place earlier in the week, and creates the likelihood that they will be heard. It's clearly an impediment to people coming forward, when the individual concerned is placed on such a pedestal that few want to believe ill of them. Why else did floods of accusations against Jimmy Saville start to come in AFTER he was dead and AFTER the first stories were made public? Because it was finally OK for the victims to tell their stories without being disbelieved.

Also, this forum is the equivalent of CNN in the acoustic music world, so it's not an unseen backwater. It *is* useful to have this discussion here.

Duck isn't conducting a witch hunt - he just feels strongly that any potential victims need to know that they're not going to be shot down in flames if they now come forward. Duck is my husband, so I know how he feels about it.

For those who refuse to believe it until it's proved in a court of law - for goodness sake, Brozman is now dead, so can't be tried! And when you ask 'why didn't people come forward sooner?', please remember that it's a common problem with sexual abuse. It can take decades before someone is ready to come out and talk about it. When it happens, obviously, they're children and it's rare that they want to tell the world about it, and their families don't want to put them through that - if the families even know about it, or believe them. Saville was never tried; do you doubt *his* accusers?
Possibly some of Brozman's victims had recently steeled themselves to face a trial, which will now not happen, and they have to deal with that.
I agree with Duck that since there are a lot of signs that the accusations are true, the hagiography needs to be countered. That's why this thread is useful.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 08 May 13 - 06:29 AM

"Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 May 13 - 07:03 PM

I am starting to wonder about the prevalence of a fondness for coercive sex among entertainers. How does it compare to others? Should we worry that a desire to be an entertainer shows a probability of a socio-sexual defect?"

No, I don't think so. It just so happens that a lot of such stories seem to be getting uncovered right now, as the snowball is rolling, more victims are beginning to feel safe to tell their stories - remember that until more recently many children were simply dismissed as fantasists, including by parents, it was simply too taboo to talk about.

Celebrity status from being an entertainer may help to generate the kinds of access to people's trust that many other professions may not, but the same is also true of caring professions, religious offices and teaching jobs among others. It's possible that the kinds of access that certain professions may provide, make some jobs more appealing to those with a desire to abuse but it's not a signifier of deviancy to want to do said jobs. I certainly don't think that a love of kids and a desire to work with kids is any sign of sexual deviancy, even if paedophiles are attracted to such professions. Nor do I think the same of the desire to be an entertainer. However the desire to work with children unfortunately must always be under scrutiny.
I did note early on the Obit thread, that Brozman was a wonderful charitable fellow, who gave his time taking instruments to children in poor countries. Sad to say, but that kind of focused altruism (as in the Savile case) would be more likely to make me want to know more about a persons possible motives, than simply the desire to be an entertainer.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 08 May 13 - 06:21 AM

I notice that while Richard Hoover's blog post is still up, SCGC has taken the brozman banner/eulogy off their website.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Mary Christine
Date: 08 May 13 - 05:32 AM

My name has never been withheld for the record. So you are an ignorant fool and a pitiable human being.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Mary Christine
Date: 08 May 13 - 05:25 AM

Wow. You are going to make my husband of 18 years very angry now. After Bob & I split, I privately and ignorantly prided myself on how talented my ex-husband was. But all my current husband ever heard from me was maybe once per year I might have called him an asshole, selfish and self-absorbed. Of course all that changed in recent years. Pitiable character? Owned my own enviromental business (and failed) but not after much activism which included several visits with my ex-governor, Gary Johnson, of NM and a private meeting with ex-US Senator Pete Domenici, who publicized my work in a local publication. Please identify yourself to say you have personally seen me make false allegations in the past. I am grateful beyond measure that my healing has led me to help others who have been brutalized in ways you probably couldn't even imagine. I do appreciate the word choice of pitiable. It is one of my favorites. Much better than pitiful. Really, I think there will be many others who would like to know your name, now, manly man.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 08 May 13 - 04:57 AM

Dear God, this thread causes me so much pain. I cannot believe this is being circulated like wildfire, and that so many people are saying that the world should just take their word as fact, with no real evidence offered.   I am grateful to see the posts from people suggesting calm scrutiny, and a request for a measured response based on proof.

I hate contributing to gossip, but since so many of you are quick to condemn any accusation involving a child, and are taking unsubstantiated claims as facts I feel that I must offer some perspective on the principal players. - Mary Christine, the ex wife, has long been a pitiable character ...exactly because she is willing to put her daughter through something like this. I'm sorry to report that she has a decades long personal history of volatility, paranoia, triangulation, and vindictiveness.   She may well have convinced herself that her story is true, and been able to convince others, but I can testify that she can also be someone disconnected from reality.   I have personally seen her make false accusations in the past.   How heartbreaking would it be if Brozman killed himself because of a false accusation that he knew would forever ruin his reputation. I hate to say this about any person, but given her publishing these rumors on the heels of Brozman's suicide., I feel this truth must also be told.

This is dangerous territory, folks. Tread lightly, and keep your eyes open as the story unfolds. There is a reason the law says beyond a reasonable doubt.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 08 May 13 - 04:44 AM

well i suppose they could send out postcards instead...and if you were convinced you were speaking the truth out of desire to protect children, you would tell your children the truth and expose them to it to protect other children, I would imagine. The stench coming from the Catholic church is because the truth did not come out and fear of scandal trumped protection of children. Personal gain? Does not make sense to me in this case but i could be wrong...the question is always going to be do you do nothing or do you do something....either way you could call it wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 08 May 13 - 03:48 AM

So far, I see some hideous allegations, but absolutely NO proof. An accusation is not proof. I do know this...there is ONE accusation that no man can ever recover from. No one wants to be seen as on the side of a person accused of this kind of behavior...if there is even the chance it might be true.   As this story circulates, I'm sure fewer and fewer will question it.    Please keep in mind that most of the statements Gary, the accuser, makes are statements of opinion - they are supported with no facts, and it's suspicious that he and the ex-wife want to use the internet to tell this story.   Why would they want to expose their own children to the publication of this information, if not for some kind of personal gain.   Just because someone makes an attempt to settle something out of court does NOT mean they are guilty. And a man might kill himself if he believed his reputation was going to be ruined by a hideous story. What if this was black mail...or worse, just plain meanness taken too far.

Gary and the "ex-wife" whose name is withheld do not provide one bit of information to support the claims that they make. The "victims" are not posting their stories, and I can't believe they want these stories publicized in such an ugly way.

Gary states quite publically that he believed Brozman to be a wealthy man...and claims to have co-authored a book with Brozman.

This whole thing is very fishy, and I will go on the record to say...I knew Bob, and I just don't believe Brozman did what he is accused of. And IF he did, it should be proven in a court of law, with evidence, and due process. People, please, hold the accusers accountable to some standard of proof, please, other than if they say it, it must be true.   
If it's proven beyond the shadow of a doubt, fine, I'll be the first to condemn the behavior...but I lived too long to just take a complete stranger at face value for this kind of accusation.    If there was real proof of this, why didn't these people have a case years before?

I'm just saying, we don't know the real story, and what has been published here should not be taken at face value.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 May 13 - 02:23 AM

. . . allegations turn out to be true, then all of us, as a musical community, need to pony up somehow to help the victims.

Even a non-legal mind can figure out that if there is standing to any cases that come forward than responsibility for settlements will be encumbered on his multi-million dollar estate, not on an particular part of the public, aside from legal aid and victims funds. His estate might not be ill-gotten gains, but it is the resource that would have been tapped in civil cases that would logically have followed criminal prosecution, were the criminal cases successful. Or not (see the O.J. Simpson case, where the criminal case said "not guilty" but the lesser standard required by the civil courts found him guilty and pretty much Hoovered up all of his assets.) Even dead, I imagine there is legal wrangling to come, that may shed light on guilt or innocence.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: PHJim
Date: 08 May 13 - 12:49 AM

It seems that this will never be settled legally since Bob is no longer with us. It will be left to individuals to make up their own minds or remain undecided.

There are still folks on both sides of the Michael Jackson and O.J. Simpson debates, even though in these cases the courts did make decisions.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 08 May 13 - 12:46 AM

we are far more than spectators. collectively we are the eyes and ears of our local and global community. we can piece together bits of information and put them out there for others to corroborate. Or refute. We make the world safer when molesters, trafficers, enablers, bishops who move predators around, know that the whole wide world is watching and will not tolerate. silence and confusion are their friends..public knowledge and watchdoging is their enemies.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 13 - 11:01 PM

Look, folks, the truth will eventually prevail... believe me. I have to say I was shocked by these allegations, but in retrospect, and looking back over the decades, and re-thinking all the interactions...

While I support the concept of "innocent until proven guilty," I have to admit the evidence is indeed piling up. As Duck said, nobody WANTS to believe these allegations, but in several private conversations with those more "in the know" than I am, it's beginning to look pretty bad.

Let me emphasize that I have made no 100% conclusion as yet. Like most of the rest of you, I am shaking my head in wonder that, if true, this went on for so long. There is only one REAL conclusion, though: IF (and that's still only an "if") these allegations turn out to be true, then all of us, as a musical community, need to pony up somehow to help the victims.

I'm sorry, but I have ZERO tolerance for child abusers. ZERO! And new victims may continue to come out of the woodwork.

Frankly I am hoping there is a reasonable explanation for all this, and I wish it all would just go away. But that doesn't look real possible right now. All (and I do mean ALL) of my sympathies are with victims and their families. If he is indeed innocent, then a pox upon rumor mongers! But if this all turns out to be true, then Bob became his own judge, jury and executioner. May both he AND his possible victims somehow all find some measure of peace, however difficult that may be.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 May 13 - 10:26 PM

"Inquiring Mind" - if you really "want to know" go back to the start of this thread and read it for yourself. It's there.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Inquiring minds want to know
Date: 07 May 13 - 10:12 PM

Perhaps it is time to sit back and see what public records reveal about what sort of legal issues might have come the way of Bob. I hope that these records will be shared on this thread.

At this time I am not prepared to reach a finite conclusion. If you put anyone under a microscope for long enough you will find some strange data and how you interpret that data is of great importance.

A few days ago; I read a comment somewhere from someone that claimed to be a past tour coordinator for some of Bob's European tours and made some allegations.

Those of you that investigate this matter please do share what you find here.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,stevesg
Date: 07 May 13 - 09:58 PM

Seems like I offended the King of Bongo-Bong!!!

oh my...


"attacked personally"
don't take it personally, Duck

"people with half a brain"
last time I checked, my half was where it should be; which half I'm not sure

"stupid"
no guitar player jokes, please

"David Lindley and myself know more about it than you"
impressive

"You think I'm not Duck Baker?"
I'm sure youre Duck Baker, I'm not sure why I'm trading flames with an adult called "Duck"

"None, no, and none, right? What a shock!"
correct. I can read hearsay easier, and I get to communicate with real guitar gods

"If you want to act like you're defending Brozman from a witch hunt"
read my post; "I don't care about Brozman"; anyway my wife's family includes in its tree Rebecca Nurse, so I'm careful with the "w" word

"I don't intend to address such distractions again."
sorry I distracted you.

sincerely yours, s.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 13 - 08:14 PM

This is the internet. The truth will come out.
>>>>


funniest thing I have read all day.



Some of the posts here make the valid point that there might have been other victims who haven't come forward, but would be emboldened to do so if others did so publicly
>>>>

yes, that is a valid point.   But we're not victims, are we? We're spectators.    Maybe the best way to encourage victims to come forward is to quiet down a little and treat it like the serious and incredibly sensitive subject it is.   Not slinging mud at those who disagree with us.

My comments are not directed at everyone on this thread. Many people are already treating this subject soberly and seriously.    My comments are directed at some posters only.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 13 - 08:04 PM

Guest... Gerardo was making a joke. I say a joke, son.   A very creditable attempt to get people to lighten up a little.


I think we could all save time by putting a boilerplate statement about how awful child abuse is.   Can we just stipulate that as a given, please?


I was asking a serious question.   How is the rampant hysteria that is this discussion helping to identify other potential victims or to encourage them to come forward?   Ask yourselves honestly how the things you are typing help accomplish that goal that we can all agree on.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Brozman legal issues (NOT obit)
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 07 May 13 - 08:04 PM

Duck Baker is a hero in my book. Caring that much about the 3 known victims at this point, not their parents but the girls who are now all grown women. Those women don't need to talk to anyone. They need only to control their own destinies. This is why it may never be known because they get to keep their privacy. Bob's taking his own life will have to speak for itself. Yes his wife is grieving but she isn't one of the abused. Just another one who believed the con artist.