BS: Prince Harry - What a star!

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry - What a star!
From: Stu
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 02:28 PM

I agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry - What a star!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 02:15 PM

Well said, Kat.

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry - What a star!
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 11:17 AM

Those of you who are relating this to what you consider silly nicknames, etc. in your own lives, don't get it. Regardless of whether Harry and friends are used to using such "banter" he IS a public figure and held to higher standards of conduct, or should be, for the example he sets. Also, the things you have all cited, could be changed. A person's skin colour cannot be changed and what one is called applies to the whole community of whichever minority is being denigrated. The Baldy Bastard scenario was a good explanation of this. Institutionalised, low-level racism is alive and well and there are those of us who will speak out no matter the times you may castigate us for being too PC (that's another term which has been co-opted by the Far Right and made to sound dirty. Fuck them! Like Rick Fielding said, there is such a thing as "Ethically Conscious" and it harms none to be so.)

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry - What a star!
From: Stu
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 11:15 AM

Is it OK to call your dog "Nigger" if he's black then?

Plenty of people used to, so I presume it still must be OK if we're all to call Asians Paki's'? After all, they did it in all innocence before racism was bad.

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry - What a star!
From: GUEST,Ian
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 11:01 AM

Here in The UK, up until last year, we had a Disability Rights Commission. I took issue with them in my professional life and referred to them in the papers as being a committee of professional wheelchairs.

I got into a lot of trouble for that. But it was fighting unrealistic expectation.

Now... if I had applied that to a race rather than disability environment...

a) I would not have been as quick to criticise

b) Amazing how those who seem most offended are not those being criticised.

FOR CRYING OUT LOUD, banter amongst friends! I am fat and bald and am continuously being reminded. I play instruments well enough but my voice is as flat as a fart, (normally reminded as I am about to launch into a song...)

I get on with life.

About time the UK media did too...

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry - What a star!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 10:52 AM

"Racism and what happened in that video are two entirely different things."

You're wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry - What a star!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 10:24 AM

Oh..and his favourite joke used to be:

"Why is my sister like a washing machine? - Because she's a twin tub!"

Don't you just love brothers! :0)


Oh, and Rosie, if you see or hear someone saying something like that, you 'punch their lights out' (verbally, of course) :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry - What a star!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 10:23 AM

Disability isn't the relevant issue there Keith. Prejudice takes many forms. It's a very fair comparison.

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry - What a star!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 10:19 AM

Oh hell's bells. Racism and what happened in that video are two entirely different things. I'm with the people who say it was a private video Harry made...and I wonder how many other of Harry's mates call each other names. The NOTW is, imo, a bloomin' foul paper, dumbed down beyond belief. It's tried to make something out of nothing, and it'll have hurt and upset many people along the way. Why? Because they wanted to sell their sleazy rag and boot the Royals again, no other reason at all.

Heck, I'm often referred to in here as 'madlizziecornish' but I don't care, as I know it's purely a form of affection.   ;0) Those who are against names of any sort, be they nick names or other should have spoken out against that perhaps, but er...strangely..they didn't.

Double ;0)

When I was at school I was called 'Little Beck', because my older brother was 'Big Beck' and it came from his middle name, 'Beckwith' which was actually my grandmother's maiden name, on Dad's side. We never knew her, as sadly, she died when Dad was just 15, so I guess he wanted her name to be somewhere in his children's names as a way of keeping her close.

People always commented on the colour of my skin too, because I'm very pale, and they used to laugh like crazy every summer when they were golden brown all over and there was me, pale as a ghost, Seriously, I should have taken up 'haunting' as a profession.

But hey, you have to learn to develop a sense of humour about these things, nothing I could do would make my skin go darker, it just won't do that..and I learnt to love 'pale'.

I am what I am.

My brother's name for me is 'brat'

Hey ho... :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry - What a star!
From: Rasener
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 10:19 AM

Thats hypothetical Rosie.I haven't seen anybody do that and secondly, it would be out of my hands, just like Prince Harry. I will face that if and when it happens and would want to know the facts before taking any action. The trouble in this world, is there are too many nosy parker busy bodies interfering in other peoples business (especially if they are high profile). People in glass houses....

As it is, I do not have any influence on the situation, unless it was related to my daughter. Then I would have to go and deal with it.

Personally I have enough looking after my own family's interests, to want to get involved in other peoples issues. My family has to come first. So Rosie, if you have somebody in your family facing that problem, go and deal with it quitly and decently with all parties involved and get it sorted. Above all, make sure you have the facts correct before you begin though. Don't take other peoples word for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry - What a star!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 10:05 AM

Not a fair comparison Rosie, unless you regard Asian origins as a disability.

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry - What a star!
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 09:43 AM

The Villian, I have to ask, if you saw footage of someone in a supposed position of authority, casually referring to someone with a disability as "Our Retard (Spastic/Cripple etc.) mate over there" would you personally find that acceptable?

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry - What a star!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 09:30 AM

And when the "joker" is third-in-line to the throne, it does rather tip the scale.

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry - What a star!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 09:24 AM

but what's happening at the moment, Villan, is that she doesn't want to rock the boat. As I implied before, she doesn't "want to be mistaken for someone who seeks to find offence in virtually everything she sees and hears." Because there are people who may think that "she needs to learn to distinguish between banter and something that is meant in a nasty way", and that she is over-sensitive, and they may exclude her from the group.

I think there are probably a lot of black people in her position - they are in largely white environments (like, say, the army?) where a kind of low-level culture of racism is tolerated. Things are said that may be offensive and upsetting to the recipient, but they don't want to become a social pariah, so they just laugh it off. And then the perpetrator thinks that what they've said is acceptable. And the culture carries on.

I think this is one facet of what's known as "institutionalised racism".

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry - What a star!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 09:16 AM

As that rather more eloquent prince, Hamlet, puts it "No, no, they do but jest, poison in jest, no offence i'th'world."

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry - What a star!
From: Rasener
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 09:07 AM

On the contrary Ruth. If she is unhappy about it, she should report it to her teacher and parents. they should get together and discuss the best way to sort it.

Thats what I do, if something happens when somebody upsets my Autistic daughter. What I don't do, is go ranting and raving at the teacher or support person. I discuss calmly what the problem is and find a way round the problem. it's worked for me everytime.

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry - What a star!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 08:35 AM

So I guess my daughter's friend should just laugh it off every time one of her "friends" calls her a Paki. After all, she doesn't want to be mistaken for someone who seeks to find offence in virtually everything she sees and hears. She needs to learn to distinguish between banter and something that is meant in a nasty way - even if the banter makes her feel like shit. She should just keep quiet about it, and certainly not be tempted to tell her parents, or a teacher, that she's regularly being called a racist name by other students.

Right?

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry - What a star!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 08:20 AM

We-e-ell SJ, I understand your point, but sorry old lad, I choose not to take offence when I'm insulted - as distinct from some others who seek to find offence in virtually everything they see and hear. AAMOF, I chose my current Mudcat name because it was a word used by another Mudcatter, one given to occasional hysterical rantings, in an effort to 'insult' me and some of my friends - I was so 'hurt' (NOT! I decided to change my name forthwith to Backwoodsman. :-)

Call me anything you like, I'm an adult and I don't give a shit. :-) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry - What a star!
From: Rasener
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 08:13 AM

Sugarfoot
Thats exactly the point.
You have to distinguish between banter and something that is meant in a nasty way.
Of course Backwoodsman would put one on him, if he did what you had suggested. But then he wouldn't be a friend anyway if he did that.

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry - What a star!
From: Stu
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 06:56 AM

"FOR INSTANCE.... if I were to call Backwoodsman a 'Baldy Bastard' at the Folk Club..."

Fine - but that's a bit of banter between you two. If you were to call Backwoodsman "Baldy Bastard" whenever you saw him, all the time and described his entire family as "Baldy Bastards" and anyone of his race as "Baldy Bastards" until an accepted term amongst your race for Backwoodsman and his people was "Baldy Bastards", and then sat at home one night some over-privileged whelp unbeknownst to you films you and it's broadcast on the news with the commentary "Ah, there's our Baldy Bastard friend Backwoodsman . . ." I'm guessing the ability to brush it off as a harmless josh would soon wear thin with him, his family and everyone he knows.

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry - What a star!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 06:25 AM

The fact that Harry wasn't "deliberately trying to cause offence" by calling someone a Paki, that he was (possibly) using the term "affectionately", makes it no less racist.

There's an Asian girl in my daughter's class at school. Lincolnshire isn't a particularly culturally diverse part of the country, so she's one of a handful of non-white girls in the year group. My daughter came home one day quite shocked, because some of her friends had been referring to the girl as a "Paki". They even said it to her face. The girl laughted it off, because she felt she had to. She later told my daughter that she hated it, and that if her parents found out they'd go mad. But she continues to put up with it, because she doesn't want to have a row or alienate herself from the group.

Do these girls think they're causing offence? Probably not. Are they deliberately setting out to enforce racial hatred? Of course not. Are their words nevertheless hurtful and racist? Undoubtedly.

Thuis is the problem with low-level, culturally-reinforced racism. These were schoolgirls, probably just repeating what they've heard at home. Prince Harry really ought to bloody well know better. And I would have thought the same is true of some of the Mudcatters below who have defended it.

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry - What a star!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 05:04 AM

Try telling a USAian that he's not American but North American!!

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry - What a star!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 09:03 PM

Sooty? He was a TV star Teddy Bear. Here's a picture of him.
...............................

The thing is sometimes words get loaded with hate and contept, and you just have to stop using them in any context where that message is liable to be understood. Nothing wrong with the word "yid", just the word for "Jewe" in theYiddish language - one that and thousands of non-Jewish Spurs fans use it regularly to refer to themselves - but in other settings it's a word to be avoided because it is takes on that load of hate and contempt from the way it's been used too often.

And it's the same for Paki, and that's what makes it different from Aussie or Scotty. Those abbreviations don't have that loading of hate and contempt.

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry - What a star!
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 04:03 PM

There is more racism among coloured than white on black. Africans hate Jamacians, they in turn hate Indians.

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry - What a star!
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 03:14 PM

If black people want to call each other 'nigger' using the term in an ironic reclamation of a racist sneer, that's fine. I'm certainly never going to call any other human being by such a name.

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry - What a star!
From: GUEST,Mr Yeahbut
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 10:26 AM

yeah but..

Ok.. the royal family are a bunch or gormless parasitic cretins
who should be abolished and walled up permanently in a remote highland game park
at the earliest opportunity we have to vote on a referendum..

now then..

Does that sufficiently establish my anti-royalist credentials..

however, now lets stick to the main point that
these 2 wankhead individuals have been deliberately quoted out of context
by a maliciously profit motivated
irresponsible and anti social gutter press..

thank you and good afternoon..

Consistent identity does not mean in just the last few posts, rather a consistent identity always. I am going to allow this post, but if you start using multiple identities you will be deleted. Why not just join? But if you choose not to, you must stay consistent. Thanks.

---

Guest Policy, from Joe.

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry - What a star!
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 10:16 AM

What is Prince Philips excuse ? he didn't know the the Indians he insulted (over memorial to those killed by the British) or "Chinks" he insulted.

Are you saying he is excluded from blame too ?

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry - What a star!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 09:14 AM

Absolutely correct, GS.

As I said earlier, it's a modern fashion for the National Brigade of PC-Idiots to actively seek out offence where none is intended or need be taken. Quite deliberate over-sensitivity, for the sole purpose of taking some sort of imaginary 'High Moral Ground'.

And the gutter-press are guilty of whipping up racial tension by publishing something which was private, and should never have been published. When will someone take a grip on these flappy-mouthed dickheads in the media, and make them accountable for what they publish?

Whether Charles or Harry are freeloaders is totally irrelevant to this discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry - What a star!
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:58 AM

FOR INSTANCE.... if I were to call Backwoodsman a 'Baldy Bastard' at the Folk Club.... it would only ever be done in fun and he would accept that..... He would probably say something equally as funny to me and we would laugh about it........ neither of us would feel offended....
Can you imagine the newspapers the following day if they got hold of the story......
The whole thing is so pathetic.

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry - What a star!
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:55 AM

Neither Harry or Charlie were being offensive and that's the crux of the whole 'racist' issue.... When the names, words, phrases etc are used OFFENSIVELY ... then it becomes racial abuse...... not when used affectionately. When will people learn???

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry - What a star!
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:55 AM

If I called a coloured member here a paki, my comment would be deleted as stated in rules and rightly so. If a pack of freeloaders like Charles and young Hewitt do it, everyone finds a reason to defend them.

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry - What a star!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:09 AM

"It's just as offensive to insinuate (or plain outright state) that Prince Harry's father is not Prince Charles - but some of you are still doing it.

Paki, Nigger or bastard, they're ALL offensive."

Absolutely, Liz. As are 'Baldy-bastard' and 'Fat cunt'. But I'm not one of those who searches for things to be offended about, and I'm sufficiently adult to be able to disregard insults when they're aimed at me.

I stand by my earlier assertion - the guilt lies far greater on those who chose to publicise Harry's unfortunate choice of words in a deliberate attempt to whip up outrage and stir up racial tension than on his original use of those words.

Harry clearly wasn't trying to cause offence and outrage when he called his buddy "Paki", but the press definitely were when they published the video.

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry - What a star!
From: GUEST,goatfell
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 07:48 AM

just like Prince Charles calling a black friend Sooty

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry - What a star!
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 07:29 AM

It's just as offensive to insinuate (or plain outright state) that Prince Harry's father is not Prince Charles - but some of you are still doing it.

Paki, Nigger or bastard, they're ALL offensive.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry - What a star!
From: GUEST,Ian
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 07:08 AM

Racism?

Just a pigment of the media's imagination.

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry - What a star!
From: GUEST,Al
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 06:35 AM

Prince Philip insults individuals and nations for years and got off with it. In recent years both India and China took offence at remarks he made. So in the case of Prince Charles the apple never falls far from the tree, as for Harry, well I don't know enough about Major Hewitts father.

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry - What a star!
From: Rasener
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 05:11 AM

lol

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry - What a star!
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 05:08 AM

One for The Villan:

"Cosner keck a bow agen a wow?"

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry - What a star!
From: Rasener
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 04:24 AM

Kat

I think its a yorkshire expression

It can be used as a term of address, usually affectionate. E.g."Right cock, that'll be 46 pence please. Would you like it in a bag?"

If I remember rightly Charlie Williams (British Comedian) used to call people "cock". one of the first black players in British football after the Second World War, and later became Britain's first well-known black stand-up comedian.

In fact, he broke all the rules about being PC.

He caused offence to some by defending the Robertson's golliwog trade mark, and for saying that immigrants to the UK should conform to the British way of life.

Makes you wonder doesn't it.

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry - What a star!
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 08:42 PM

Well said Al. Prince Philip has been doing it for years and getting off with it. We could also explore "Jack the Ripper" he was a royal.

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry - What a star!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 07:47 PM

the thing is, if you were some minor public official - you might lose your job. certainly if you'd been working on the checkout and you used those termes, you'd probably get your cards for upsetting customers.

These people get zillions for the job they do. they will never have to worry about making a repayment, or wonder if they are getting the best medical advice or treatment.

they are not amateurs - they should know better.

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry - What a star!
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 06:06 PM

I think you boys have your genders mixed up. We girls would never call each other cocks!:-)

Seriously, another Mudcatter sent me a link to this commentary and I was esp. interested in the 8th and 9th paragraphs, i.e. the casual culture of racism.

Since white men, as a whole, have never been a part of minority it may be difficult for them to fathom just how much words can effect a whole community, not just one member of such. And, I am talking colour and gender here, boys, not yer accents.

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry - What a star!
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 05:23 PM

So will it be okay to request the new president to sing "Old man river" in a few weeks time ? Does he use Robertson's Jam ?

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry - What a star!
From: Rasener
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 03:48 PM

But Jasper is a Blues supporter LOL

Well you are not dosy BWM, but a twat at times, just like me LOL :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry - What a star!
From: Stu
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 03:10 PM

""people are branded on the tongue"

This is true, and when I first moved here I acquired the nicknames "Jasper" and "Birmingham Bill". The latter was a tad unimaginative, but being called Jasper I considered a compliment especially as Jasper himself lived close to where I lived and he talked about places we knew, such as our local chippy.

I've heard the phrase"Dummie Brummie", but I'd rather be a dummie Brummie than a clever twat.

Jeff Lynne is God.

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry - What a star!
From: Stu
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 03:02 PM

it's a good time to be a Villa fan - I hope to get to the Trinity Lane stand again before the season's out!

This is what they want!

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry - What a star!
From: MartinRyan
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 02:54 PM

Many years ago, I used to teach sailing with a French organisation (Breton, if you want to split berets) which had/has bases in Ireland. I would arrive at the base with a list of the Irish stagieres/trainees provided by the Dublin office. At the bottom of the page it would say - ".... Plus fifteen Frogs."! My French equivalent would arrive similarly equipped with a list of the French trainees, from the Paris office - at the bottom of which was the line "Plus fifteen Paddies"!

Parity of lack of esteem has its advantages - provided it preserves a sense of humour.

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry - What a star!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 02:50 PM

Reading some of the above, words like 'Grow', 'a' and 'skin' spring to mind.

I've been called all sorts of names by all sorts of people - usually by way of impolite and unpleasant reference to my being follically challenged and, until a few years ago, seriously overweight. I always found that the best way to confound someone who told me I was a 'baldy-bastard', or a 'fat cunt' was to ignore them. Works like a charm, and anyway who gives a flyin' fuck about a few words spoken by a prick? Life's too short to get in a lather about something so inconsequential.

And yes, Villan does call people 'dozy twat'. He's called me it loads of times, usually when I've behaved loik wun! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry - What a star!
From: Rasener
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 02:43 PM

>>the shopkeeper was asked his name and occupation, he replied that he "keeps the wee Paki shop in ****** Road". Case dismissed. <<

LOL That says it all :-)

Sugarfoot - up the Villa :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry - What a star!
From: Stu
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 02:31 PM

"I am a real Brummie"

Me to.