BS: Are we anti-Irish?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 10:35 PM

While I respect the intent of the thread, it seems ludicrous to me. Among the British folks in general, and the English specifically, I don't find them to be anymore anti Irish than anything else. There is no denying the culpability of the government in the events of the last 400 years or so, but I find that most I know don't support the policy of their government in the North of Ireland. But most of the folks I am acquainted with are working class.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 10:31 PM

"I don't think the English are particularly anti-irish at all" - David Hannam

No, neither do we, David.
Read Tiocfaidh's post again.

"I don't think we will get a particularly scientific answer here either, Tiocfaidh. But when all comes to all it is in response to a particularly un-scientific statement:-)" - Dave

(Let me, Paul...)
The fairly scientific poll we did on the Mudcat posts, showed a marked bias, Dave, and on the 'Loyalist' thread, you have sort of accepted that; you could name them yourself, you said...

"IF the 'average' Brit is Anti - Irish , how come Irish Music sessions are so popular all over Britain ?? - AND Irish theme Pubs ?? AND Guiness ???" - Leadfingers.

Combat 18 use Irish Pubs in Europe as 'headquarters' at England's 'away' games.
And sing a decent 'rebel' song (a British nomenclature, by the way) in some of these 'Irish' Pubs, and you'll get the "I feel offended..." story thrown back at you.

"And I don't think many who aren't anti Irish will feel the need to come in and defend themselves against someone's preconcieved idea of themselves either" - Guest

Perhaps not, Guest, but the discussion has been opened, and people will feel free (or otherwise...), to give their opinion, and to stick their monikers to it.
Anti-Irishness on the Mudcat has been accepted.
How subliminal is it within the psyche of the average 'Brit'
(... please note that 'English' people don't get called 'Engs'....)

And please note, also, that we are not looking for how far up the scale of racism, Anti-Irishness lies.... as being comparable to African, Asian, etc. Irish people are lucky enough in that there were other objects for 'British' people to throw their superiority complex at.

"And that prejudice was still thriving in Ireland into the last decade. I guess some people just take longer to let go and move on" - Guest

Not the 'Reverend' Ian's mob, I'm afraid.
One of his Ministers/Borough Council Representatives recently passed around leaflets protesting against the building of a Mosque in North County Armagh.
Sky News interviewed the guy, and as he was being interviewed, a small crowd of kids appeared to wave, and make faces into the camera. 'Man of God', Reverend Whatshisname, turns around to the kids and in full hearing of the 'British' public said "These Muslims eat their children, you know; we don't want them here, do we?"
Kids say "No"
Oddly enough, this kind of thing might be the catalyst..., as in 7-10 years time some of these 'Children Eaters' will be on the Electoral Register.

"The threads that occur here sometimes seem counter productive: it's easy to find bitterness and hard to relinquish it." - s&r

These threads do not set out to be counter-productive, s&r. They are created to make us think.
Has anyone actually researched what being 'British' entails?
Because it is fundamental to the premise being offered here

"I'm English. Being as England is part of Britain, that also makes me British" - Grab

... in a nutshell...

"In this country, the signs "No Irish need apply" was all about economics and jobs. had nothing to do with religion" - kendall.

In England, it wasn't necessarily related to religion, neither, kendall.
The Act of Union made any further 'Popish Plots' impossible.
They were quite happy to have us work down the tunnels and on the roads in England... they just didn't want us staying in their lodging houses.

" ... and Ireland as a nation has seen England/Britain/UK as an empire-building invader over the centuries, but individuals have of necessity worked closely with English people." - Celtaddict

That's just known as the dynamics of the situation, Celtaddict. France, England and Germany could equally fit there.
The British Government over the years since 1971 have been in secret contact with the IRA (probably un-beknownst to most English people), in direct violation of their own 'no negotiating with 'Terrorists' stance.
Who do you think the Government were trying to hoodwink on these occasions?
The Irish?

No, dear readers. The 'British' population had to believe they were actually winning the war against us.
Those 'free-thinkers' that Tiocfaidh talks about, are those that don't, or never did, buy in to the double standard

YEE - HA folks!

(I think we're actually getting somewhere...)

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Celtaddict
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 09:27 PM

My personal and unscientific observation from a good deal of travel in the past decade in Ireland, England, and Scotland, and from listening to a great number of songs and the commentary that goes with them from the singers, and sitting many hours talking with friends from various points across the pond, is that many English people like Ireland (when they see it) but are not eager to know Irish people, and many Irish people have no problem with English people but have a long-established antipathy toward England as a nation. Both of these views probably have historic roots, as many Irish were poor immigrant workers in England in the past (sometimes the very recent past, right up to Celtic Tiger days) but their homeland remains a beautiful place (and, sadly, possibly rendered more scenic to some by the reduction in population in the mid-19th century), and Ireland as a nation has seen England/Britain/UK as an empire-building invader over the centuries, but individuals have of necessity worked closely with English people.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,beachcomber
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 06:03 PM

Interesting thread this,
I lived and worked in London in the 50s -60s too and I remember well the indifferent acceptance of my fellow occupants,in a London Youth Hostel,of the arrival of two Southern Irishmen (my brother and I) among them. This lulled us into a sense of false security , to a large extent, and I can remember the shock of seeing "No Irish, No Coloureds" on the shop front advertising cabinets in areas like Maida Vale, Paddington, Earl's Court etc., etc.
There was a widespread attitude of "superiority" towards Irish people then, among Londoners, but we were mostly treated ( I think, provided that we behaved according to the same social rules, and why would we not !)like Pavlov's dog. Only once, on the Soccer pitch, did I receive racial insult from an English person (which I believed him to be)......well, I did kick him. Gratuitous offence , however, could be taken by anyone of a sensitive disposition, as it was constantly , mostly unwittingly, offered in every day conversation, newspapers, and radio broadcasts and, especially, at Speakers corner, Marble Arch. I suppose that these kind of attitudes did tend to force some of us into certain areas, Ghettos, almost, to adopt the language of the time.   
Nowadays , I find that the British Press, and not merely the "Red Tops", constantly adopt an almost sneering attitude , especially with regard to that of which we feel proudest. This would include our better international levels of sporting performance, economic performance and even our attempts to rationalise our relationship with Northern Ireland.
There has been no comparable , institutionalised, Anti English (or British) discrimination here for many years.
I also ran a small restaurant here in an Irish village for 10 yrs and was constantly being amazed by the number of middle-aged to elderly British/English people who came in and admitted that it was their first trip to Ireland and how wrong their preconceptions had been.
"We'll be back !" was the common attitude I found. I do not believe that has changed since those 90s although our roads sure have.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Celtaddict
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 02:31 PM

The economic concern has fueled bad feeling against immigrants in many times and places, and by extension probably bad feeling against the place from which they emigrated as well. At the risk of turning this into an actual music thread, there is a broad assortment of non-PC older, and tongue-in-cheek newer, songs which point this out.
Jan Christensen's song for the reopening of Ellis Island has a song, putting into words the feeling of earlier immigrants toward later ones, "They all look funny and they don't speak English and they're taking our jobs away..."
A somewhat older one is sung from the viewpoint of an Irish woman bemoaning that currently the Italian immigrants are taking the jobs because they will work for less, but things will be better "When McGinnis gets a job."
That gentle and tolerant Scots emigrant to Australia, where even more than in the U.S. the vast majority are immigrants of relatively recent time, Eric Bogle's tongue was probably bleeding from his fantasied Aussie lambasting of all unfamiliar newcomers in his ferocious, "I hate wogs, they live like dogs, some eat bananas and some eat frogs, some wear sandals and some wear clogs, it's all the bloody same to me 'cause I hate wogs."
There are plenty of these, of a variety of ages. In an earlier time when people did not travel as widely as often, distrust of the stranger was likely largely due to unfamiliarity of appearance and ways. More recently with increased worldwide mobility, the economic concern has probably played a larger role. Historically, newcomers, strangers in a strange land, have been willing to do jobs the local individuals may not be, or to do tough jobs for lower pay. The U.S. has had definite waves of immigration from different parts of the world in different times. I suspect that in difficult times, the brunt of bad feeling has been borne by whatever group happened to be the most recent large wave of immigrants.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: kendall
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 11:40 AM

Morticia is Irish. Anyone anti Morticia? Better not admit it!

In this country, the signs "No Irish need apply" was all about economics and jobs. had nothing to do with religion. American laborers resented them coming here and taking jobs, but of course, they couldn't admit that so they played the religion card.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Dave Hannam
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 11:28 AM

Or another great one:

Alan Partridge:

'Sunday Bloody Sunday'. What a great song. It really encapsulates the frustration of a Sunday, doesn't it? You wake up in the morning, you've got to read all the Sunday papers, the kids are running round, you've got to mow the lawn, wash the car, and you think "Sunday, bloody Sunday!". Alan Partridge.

Pure genius

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 11:21 AM

To quote the great Alan Partridge,

"ders more to ireland dan dis".

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 09:22 AM

If I think back 30 years, or so, ago there was a fair amount of disrespect for our Irish neighbours around (eg. 'Irish jokes' etc.). Thankfully, a lot of that seems to have died out. The reasons for this are probably quite complex, but I would suggest such things as the emergence of Ireland as successful European nation and a more positive portrayal of Irish people in the British mass media have all helped.
Personally, I grew up listening to Irish traditional singers and musicians (as well as English and Scottish ones)- they convinced me (if I needed convincing) that Irish people and Irish culture have always been worthy of the highest respect.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 08:38 AM

Grab - That makes you the kind of person that's good at geography! :)

Stu - It is certainly hard to reliquish bitterness, but though some threads may seem counterproductive to you and some others, I must say that they indeed have helped me see several issues in ways that I wouldn't have. Some have even helped me recognize some of my own biases and really confront that bitterness in order to let it go. So, while you may see them as counterproductive, at least for me they have been very helpful as well as educational.

E

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Grab
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 06:34 AM

The average 'Everybody else' couldn't care less if we dropped off into the Atlantic or not.

Yep, I've said that often enough, *but* only in relation to the IRA and Loyalist paramilitaries and their supporters. As I remember, my quote was something along the lines of "If both those bunches of evil bastards drop into the ocean and drown, I'll be happy".

Since most Irish and Northern Irish people share my view, I guess that makes me pro-Irish...

Graham.

PS. I'm English. Being as England is part of Britain, that also makes me British, and I'll use either depending on how specific I want to be about where I come from (if I wanted to be more specific yet, I'd say I came from Lancashire, or from Lytham St. Annes, or from Ansdell). "What kind of person" does that make me?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: s&r
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 06:28 AM

We're not remotely anti-Irish: we're both British, English, Northern Lanky (by adoption). We go to Ireland often, love the country and have never found anything there but open arms from the Irish.

We know little about the tensions in the North: in general it seems to be absent in the South where we visit. We would like to see a peaceful settlement that leaves all those in the North feeling that there has been a fair and just outcome.

The threads that occur here sometimes seem counter productive: it's easy to find bitterness and hard to relinquish it.

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: mooman
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 06:05 AM

I'm an Irish citizen and passport holder but was brought up in London and have a London accent, i.e. I don't sound discernabaly Irish except to a trained linguistics expert who would pick up a characteristic residual vowel sound typical of North-West Ireland.

As such, I have experienced some rather nasty and unpleasant "institutional racism" in several places I worked where it was not realised I am Irish.

But no... I certainly don't think it is endemic amongst the British but rather confined to a relatively small number of ignorant individuals. On the contrary, I think the British are a tolerant nation,

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 05:53 AM

I worked in England throughout the 1960s and I found that the English were certainly prejudiced against anyone Black or Asian.

And that prejudice was still thriving in Ireland into the last decade. I guess some people just take longer to let go and move on.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 05:46 AM

I worked in England throughout the 1960s and I found that the English were certainly prejudiced against anyone Black or Asian, the Irish would have come in a poor third.

The attitudes would have certainly changed during the past IRA campaign, I am taking into account the stories of Irish people who had to confront this on a daily basis, through there work, and also the stories of their children, who were given a terrible time at school.

With the present conflict in Iraq and the London bombings, the object of todays hatred would be Asians, God help the innocent among those Asians who have to work in England,it dosen`t matter where in the East they come from, their racial features will be enough to make them the brunt of racial hatred.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 05:18 AM

I don't think Anti-Irish people will come in here and defend their standpoint.

And I don't think many who aren't anti Irish will feel the need to come in and defend themselves against someone's preconcieved idea of themselves either.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome sans biscuit
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 05:04 AM

I don't think we will get a particularly scientific answer here either, Tiocfaidh. But when all comes to all it is in response to a particularly un-scientific statement:-)

Interesting point on the English/British bit btw. Perhaps we can take another straw poll? Who, in England, classes themselves as English and who claims they are British? I'll start. I am primarily English. Fiercely Lancastrian. Proud of both and equaly proud of being both part immigrant and fully European. I have never considered myself British and am very unsure even what it constitutes!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 04:13 AM

IF the 'average' Brit is Anti - Irish , how come Irish Music sessions are so popular all over Britain ?? - AND Irish theme Pubs ?? AND Guiness ???

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 04:06 AM

I don't think the English are particularly anti-irish at all.

You will hear the odd irish-put down joke, or perhaps enthusiastic rivalry, but as for actual hatred of the irish, certainly not. Maybe it Scotland the divide is more pronounced, but other than that...no.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 03:38 AM

On another thread you referred to yourself as 'English', Dave.
(Funny how I knew you'd be the kind of person that would be likely to do that....)

We're talking about a frame of mind here...

"Plus there is a difference between prejudices or stereotypes and hatred."
Exactly, Le Scaramouche.

Let's not confuse the issue here; we're not talking about hate.
We're talking about an Anti-Irish (Northern Nationalists in particular) bias among people who feel they have to call themselves 'British', as opposed to 'English' (Passport requirements, notwithstanding)

I think we wont get a scientific result though, Dave.

I don't think Anti-Irish people will come in here and defend their standpoint; most anti- anything sentiment you'd care to name, is a product of either historical predjudice, or decent 'marketing' on behalf of the 'pro-' whatever sentiment, side.

If the sniping that is done here on these boards by British people at anything remotely Pro-Irish, is anything to go by, take those comments, and juxtapose them into every living room in England, and tell me that those comments are not said, by your average guy with an over-developed Britannia Rules the Waves gene.

In the case of the Northern Nationalists, oddly enough it was the US Courts that made a few examples out of the 'British' Justice System.

Anti-Irishness is institionalised, Dave.

It is only free-thinkers who break that mould.

The average 'Everybody else' couldn't care less if we dropped off into the Atlantic or not.
Preferably the former, of course (... and there is documentary evidence in the archives of Mudcat, supporting this; I couldn't be arsed finding it at the minute, but that and worse is in there, you can take my word on that)

"... from apathetic to downright hostile"

As a Pro-Irish Brit is a contradiction in terms, our scale must start at 'apathetic'

Anyway let's see what the folks say...

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: harpmolly
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 01:49 AM

I still giggle when I remember my mom's story about my parents telling my great-grandmother Mom was pregnant with me. They said, "We're going to name her Molly," and Gaga sniffed and opined, "Tsk...sounds like a charwoman's name."

*snicker*

And my grandmother was Irish-Italian, but in total denial of her Irish side. Of course, she couldn't have been in too much denial, or she wouldn't have married a Cyril Doyle. *grin*

Molly (or did she mean fishmonger?)


P.S. Wasn't it Cromwell who said of the Burren, "There isn't water enough to drown a man, trees enough to hang a man, or soil enough to bury a man," or similar?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: artbrooks
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 12:01 AM

PoppaGator, it certainly still reverberates...unfortunately the "facts" mostly aren't.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 10:16 PM

Geez, artbrooks ~ are we talking about the same Cromwell?

He was not there to persecute the "native" Irish, and generally didn't go out of his way to do so;...

Didn't I once hear about someone proclaiming "to Hell or Connaught?" Wasnt there a bit about dispossessing all the native Irish in the fertile lands of Ulster, banishing them to the barren west, and replacing them with "plantations" peopled with Scottish Prebyterians? Isn't there still a lot of bad blood ~ also known as "Troubles" ~ over ths very issue lo these many centuries later?

Now, I'm still ready to believe any British individual alive today who asserts he/she has no problem with the Irish. But I'd wager than anyone still speaking as an apologist for Oliver Cromwell might well find that the average Irishman has a problem with him!

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 08:28 PM

Care to explain again for the Kerryman?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 07:26 PM

What does tend to irritate at times are some of the "Irish jokes".   The ones that just play on the "thick Mick" note, without even trying to be funny.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: bobad
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 07:12 PM

As were signs dissing Italians, Poles, Jews,"negroes" etc. This was the perceived perogative of the so called landed gentry unwilling to share their space with the dirty unwashed.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: artbrooks
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 07:10 PM

GUEST 6:35 PM: Cromwell was hardly a nice person, and his methods of making war would make Osama cringe, but they were pretty normal for his era. The fact is that he spent less than ten months in Ireland and the task assigned him by the House of Commons was to defeat the Royalist forces there, who were Anglo-Irish landowners or English (both Protestant and Catholic). He was not there to persecute the "native" Irish, and generally didn't go out of his way to do so; he treated his enemies in Ireland just about the same as he did those in England.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 07:05 PM

Hmmm... I may give my identity away here, but, what the hell. I was engaged to a lass, the one true love of my life, not so many years ago, secretly, for we planned to wed after she finished university. Until her grandmother found out that I was, indeed, half Irish Catholic and half French Catholic, whilst they were pure English Presbyterian. Didn't matter anymore that my bran muffins were a hit at coffee after service. I was turfed not long after. Good thing I wasn't skewered by those little old IODE's who use to lance their way down the aisle of the church every Sunday... fucking hypocrits.

And, this is is the "New World", thousand of miles and centuries away. On the average, of course, people are people. The Brits are some of the very best. But, the bad apples spoil it for all.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 06:54 PM

Oliver's times? Well, a hundred or so years ago, in the US and Canada, signs like "No Irish Need Apply" and "No Irish Beyond This Point" and "Paddys Out" were still common.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 06:54 PM

True, what are things like now was your question, Dave. And as we know, many things can change from one generation to the next. But, many things can also stay the same. It will be interesting to see the rest of the responses you get on this subject if everyone is truthful.

Amen, Sorcha!

E

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 06:53 PM

Brits as a group are neither pro, nor anti, Irish. Individuals may tend in either direction, based on their personal experience in dealing with Irish people.

Many Brits are undoubtedly anti IRA, but the IRA form a very small percentage of the Irish nation.

I don't know who it was, but sombody once said "All generalisations are wrong, even this one".

Hold that thought, it's a good'un.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 06:50 PM

It would me as well, Epona, but as you say that was your Mothers Grandfather. What are things like now?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Sorcha
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 06:48 PM

I'm not Brit, but I'm sure Pro Irish.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 06:45 PM

My mother's grandfather was English and even to this day, my grandmother tells me how he wouldn't allow his wife to talk about her family because she was Irish and the Irish weren't worthy of being mentioned. He felt they were beneath his English stock. Hah! If he knew me, he would be furious! And that thought makes me smile....

E

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 06:35 PM

Hmmmm.... Oliver Cromwell said he liked the Irish, for he could always find one to turn the spit whilst he roasted another. So, even in his time, the English were fond of the Irish. And, likewise, for 900 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 06:22 PM

Plus there is a difference between prejudices or stereotypes and hatred.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 06:20 PM

As a generalisation it's rubbish. It exists all right, but even at the height of the Troubles I don't think it ever reached the level of the other varieties of racism those merchants go in for.

Subject: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 05:57 PM

On another thread it has been stated categoricaly that the 'average Brit' is anti-Irish.

Is this true?

I am British and I am not anti anyone. No-one I know is anti anyone. Not by race anyway!

I have laid my cards down and said as far as I know the British, in general, are not anti-Irish so I am asking for either possitive proof or definate denial of this statement.

Out of the 60 million or so people on this Isle are the majority anti-Irish? Are a significant minority? Does, by any reasonable definition of average, the average Brit hate or even dislike the Irish?

I suspect not myself but I am willing to be shown the error of my ways. I am talking of today btw. Not in Oliver Cromwells time.

Be truthful please.

Cheers

Dave the Gnome