BS: if charged, would you leave...

Subject: RE: BS: if charged, would you leave...
From: kendall
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 07:44 PM

Guest, if you knew me, you would laugh at your own question! No one ever made up MY mind; ask my ex wives LOL. The thing is, I suspect that certain folks are so upset about being charged to be here, that they are touting the virtues of other (free)sites knowing full well that they dont measure up to Mudcat. Am I wrong? By the way, I apologize for over reacting, guess I didn't make myself clear about what I was asking.

Subject: RE: BS: if charged, would you leave...
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 12:52 PM

"no, this is about freedom to exercise our freedom of speech"

What freedom of speech? That's a myopic, American ideal that has very little to do with the internet...

Subject: RE: BS: if charged, would you leave...
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 08:59 AM

If you are looking for honest opinions, why rely on others for it? Fear that you might find that other folk music forums are safe to venture into?

If you want to be form an opinion about other forums, you'll have to go visit them yourself. Or do you always let the "group mind" do your thinking for you?

Subject: RE: BS: if charged, would you leave...
From: kendall
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 08:52 AM

Guess what Guest, I dont giva a rats ass whether you "buy" it or not. You shoot your mouth off and when questioned you cant manage an honest answer. I'm looking for honest opinions about those other sites, not childish crap.

Subject: RE: BS: if charged, would you leave...
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 07:50 AM

kendall, I'm not buying your excuses for not visiting any of the folk music message boards, newsgroups, and mailing lists, and why I'm here is none of your business.

Subject: RE: BS: if charged, would you leave...
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 11:49 PM

I don't think running the Mudcat for profit is what anyone has in mind. I think the idea is for it to be self supporting. I could be wrong about that, but it's certainly the impression I'm getting.

Subject: RE: BS: if charged, would you leave...
From: Kaleea
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 11:12 PM

no, this is about freedom to exercise our freedom of speech, and the freedom to choose traditional music. The for profit radio stations choose music which I do not like. I choose music based on my likes, not the likes & dislikes of others. I also choose to communicate with others about the subject of traditional music, and that is something which, if money were charged, could not be maintained on traditional music alone. Somewhere along the way, "pop" ular music would enter in to the mix, and change things, until the Traditional would be squeezed out in the favor of the majority of those who wish to persuade others into being interested in their own "for profit music."

Subject: RE: BS: if charged, would you leave...
From: kendall
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 10:51 PM

Carol C I was speaking strictly for myself. To me, it is a piddling sum, and I would gladly pay it. Guest, there is something wrong with my server, and I am unable to make any links work. No one seems to know what is wrong. Perhaps I did not make myself clear, what I want to know is, how does these other site compare with Mudcat? And, if they are that great, why are you here? They must have something going for them besides being free???

Subject: RE: BS: if charged, would you leave...
From: SharonA
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 04:37 PM

One other problem with paying a fee, I think, is that some people would become even more demanding of Max that he change the site to suit their own needs or desires, so that they would "get what they paid for."

My personal reaction to having to pay even a small fee would probably be to slowly drift away from the site. I find the donation/auction/t-shirt/calendar/grant-seeking solution to be much more palatable.

Subject: RE: BS: if charged, would you leave...
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 04:01 PM

About $10 a month being a small or piddling sum... I guess it is if you have it.

For those of us who don't have it, it's a lot of money. Everything's relative.

Subject: RE: BS: if charged, would you leave...
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 11:21 AM

Hey Gypsy,

I agree, The Well is WAY overpriced. But it is a high quality forum, of a professional standard as far as writing goes (they have writing contests they sponsor--I think the last winner was a regular contributing writer to Salon.com). But I don't think they are targeting an audience of our income levels. It seems targeted to middle class progressives and cultural creatives, for whom the money isn't an issue because they have substantial disposable incomes, very low overhead, or both.

But a person can dream of how nice it would be to have a folk forum of that caliber can't they? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: if charged, would you leave...
From: Gypsy
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 11:16 AM

The once yearly donation i could do......But 120.00 a year is more than i pay for any techie magazine, or even our local public radio. We too, make little money, and must husband it carefully.

Subject: RE: BS: if charged, would you leave...
From: annamill
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 11:16 AM

I wasn't suggesting we charge for Mudcat at all. I know how Dick, Susan and Max feel about it and I commend them (as well as love them). As I said, I was just curious as to how people felt about it. I think contributions are just fine though I think I would probably pay $10 a month to be here. I feel thats little enough to be able to talk to friends.

Love, Annamill

Subject: RE: BS: if charged, would you leave...
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 11:07 AM

kendall, in the last fortnight, I and others have provided at least two dozen links to other folk music website message boards, mailing lists, Usenet newsgroups, etc. If you never leave your safe and cozy Mudcat home, you have nothing to compare this place too. It is easy to find them, if what you want is to really do the research to find out what is available in the internet folk music world. But that isn't your intent, is it?

The most telling thing you have to say about your harrassment is the word "compete". None of the other websites are in a competition with Mudcat. None of them. They have co-existed in cyberspace--some of them even have been around longer than Mudcat!--and will continue to do so hopefully for many years to come.

As to the idea of paying for the DT, I wouldn't do it. It has become a less and less valuable tool over time, IMO.

When you compare DT to free sites like the Library of Congress, Contemplator, Cantaria, and the UK lyric websites like The Ballad Tree--they are so much easier to use, so much easier on the eye, they are more accurate than DT, not to mention regularly updated and maintained. So no, I wouldn't pay for a service to access DT, and I've already got my copy of the most recent DT, which I rarely have used.

Subject: RE: BS: if charged, would you leave...
From: kendall
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 10:54 AM

What are these other sites that compete with Mudcat?

Subject: RE: BS: if charged, would you leave...
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 10:12 AM

Interesting reading, this thread. Some say it would depend on the amount of money charged.

I would look at that too of course, but the thing I would look at first is whether I thought the forum itself was valuable enough to pay for. In that regard, I wouldn't pay for all the BS and flame war stuff. But if paying a registration fee or annual subscription would get rid of the BS and flaming (which other pay services have done--if you read The Well, you see it never happens there because of good moderation) by providing good moderation, I would subscribe.

There are a lot of good folk music sites now available on-line, and good mailing lists too. I don't know that any of them could have produced the Drumcree threads, though. One of the reasons why I stay. Another reason why I stay is because I can tolerate the knowledgeable music posters here much better than I can those who post a lot in the Usenet forums. For me, I have to be able to tolerate the personalities present in the threads I read and contibute to for the place to be worthwhile. But to be honest, the obnoxious, overbearing, egomaniacal personality has become more the norm here, just as it is in Usenet, so I guess my days here are numbered too.

I expect the time has come, that we are now going to see yet another splintering of Mudcat, regardless of what Max does. There is too much antagonism present here for people to discuss music without hassle, without hijacked threads, without BS creeping into everything, and the most obnoxious personalities "winning" while many of us just try and muddle through with it "as is"--which in my book isn't worth much right now.

Subject: RE: BS: if charged, would you leave...
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 10:11 AM

The whole "Pay Membership" idea opens up a huge can of worms that goes against the basic philosophies of both Max and Dick Greenhaus. Volutary donations, the auction items, and things like that are a far better way to go. We can say "Thanks for the place," and they can say "You're welcome, and thanks for the bucks."..........And we all win!

The BIGGEST contribution we could make to Max right now is to take control of ourselves and then take the pledge.

Subject: RE: BS: if charged, would you leave...
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 09:59 AM

Not if it was a reasonable fee. $5 or $10 for the year. And this would at least put a damper on some of the fighting as those folks could be restricted, or booted, and then if they chose to come back under another name they would be supporting the forum even more. There could also be a trial period that was free so folks could check it out and determine for themselves whether or not it was a space in time worth the registration fee.

This argument is so much like the debate of 1859 - 60 in the South. The Confederacy decided that contributions were better than outright taxation. Didn't work so well for them.

And anyone who believes anything is free is at best in denial of reality. Everything costs something. And if there are other resources out there then use them. That is the beauty of the world. For the most part if I don't like something I can choose to leave and go elsewhere.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: if charged, would you leave...
From: GUEST,tar_heel
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 09:49 AM

damn right i'd leave....charge?after all this time for free?...plus,there are so many places to get stuff for free ....and much of it you cant get here anyway,so hell yes!!!...i'd leave in a NEW YORK MINUTE!!!

Subject: RE: BS: if charged, would you leave...
From: kendall
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 09:44 AM

$10.00 per month is a piddling sum. Is there another site that gives you what the Mudcat gives you?

Subject: RE: BS: if charged, would you leave...
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 08:09 AM

I suppose it would depend on the price. If the $10 converted into 10 Pounds Sterling (as it often does on the web) I would probably find it rather high. At the Stony Stratford meeting an arangement to enable UK Catters to make VOLUNTARY regular DONATIONS has been proposed and agreed - I hope it all gets going OK and I definitely want to be part of it.

Subject: RE: BS: if charged, would you leave...
From: wysiwyg
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 08:00 AM

The internet is NOT stuff given away for free, it's stuff to keep the users sitting in front of ads and other ways it's supported. You can USE it to get stuff for free but that is not how it's designed! *G*

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: if charged, would you leave...
From: gnu
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 07:43 AM

CH... Deluding ? I thought I was making a funny. You too, I assume.

Subject: RE: BS: if charged, would you leave...
From: GUEST,diff guest
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 06:05 AM

Sorry - I'm by nature a scavenger. No I wouldn't pay - I'd find somewhere else for free - because I can.
I certainly wouldn't pay to read everyone and his dog's BS!!
A tightly controlled folk site that stuck to music I might pay for - but not if I could get the same info elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: if charged, would you leave...
From: Hrothgar
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 02:10 AM

And if we do pay, can we afford a whole spell checker?

Subject: RE: BS: if charged, would you leave...
From: Hrothgar
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 02:08 AM

I can afford it, but I'd rather not. I think that a lot of people would never appear here if they had to pay - and they are not just the problem people.

I am happy to make a donation whenever it's needed. That seems to me to be the way this whoe thing should work.

Subject: RE: BS: if charged, would you leave...
From: MichaelAnthony
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 01:25 AM

What are the monetary goals for the site?

Subject: RE: BS: if charged, would you leave...
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 11:51 PM

...and it looks like Dick may have addressed that issue for me. But I'm not sure what "congregate elsewhere" means.

Subject: RE: BS: if charged, would you leave...
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 11:49 PM

*Grin* Hey Clinton, I don't mind arguing with you a little bit from time to time, but it looks like your argument from the second paragraph on in your 12-Feb-02 - 11:08 PM post is with John P, and not with me.

However, I think I can address this one...

Look how uptight this place gets Members vs Guests when it's just about registration... can you imagine how wide the split would be if Mudcat also had a Members Only section???

I think we may be beyond issues of uptightness and into the realm of whether or not the Mudcat can survive as an entity. I guess a members only Mudcat could possibly be better than no Mudcat at all. At least from my perspective. I guess I can't really know for sure unless it actually happens. But that's what I think at this time at any rate.

Subject: RE: BS: if charged, would you leave...
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 11:46 PM

I can only speak for DigiTrad---not for Mudcat as an entity. If there's a charge to access the DT, it will congregate elsewhere. Happily, Max seems to feel the same as I do.

Subject: RE: BS: if charged, would you leave...
From: Blackcatter
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 11:39 PM

I'd be willing to pay a bit, but since I gross less than $8,000 anually, I don't have much.

I have a problem with spending money to join internet things - I really would need to know exactly what it is and if I really would find the money worth it before joining. At this point, $20 a year would probably be worth it here - but I doubt if I would have paid when I first found this place. I would have passed it by.

I have contributed to Mudcat he past - always annonymously, except for purchasing a t-shirt, of course.

pax yall

Subject: RE: BS: if charged, would you leave...
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 11:08 PM

CarolC

That 'smug' comment wasn't necessarily aimed at you... Look how uptight this place gets Members vs Guests when it's just about registration... can you imagine how wide the split would be if Mudcat also had a Members Only section???

"Your expectation that websites should be free is offensive if people are spending money and time to make them happen. "

That's not what I'm saying... I'm saying that with the plethora of information on the internet, I've never found a situation where what I've wanted from a pay site could not be found somewhere else for free...

It's the internet... everybody is giving everything away... whether it's theirs to give or not...

The question was asked that if mudcat were to charge, how many people would pony up and how many wouldn't... I have to say that IF it was the case, especially for the service as it stands, I wouldn't not pay...

I really don't understand the aversion to a few banner adds tucked on their own page somewhere...

Subject: RE: BS: if charged, would you leave...
From: John P
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 10:00 PM

$10 a month?
No.

$20 a year?
Yes.

Should internet sites be free?
Why should they be? They cost money to run.

Are ads a good idea?
Gag me.

Is visiting an internet site like going to a pub?
Yes.

Was the comparison to playing for money apt?
Yes. Clinton, when you start working for free you can start expecting others to do so. If you don't want to pay for what you get, don't take it. I don't care if you donate or not -- that's none of my business. Your expectation that websites should be free is offensive if people are spending money and time to make them happen. You sound just like all the people who expect me to play music for free because "it's folk", or because "it's good exposure", or because they know I love to play.

John Peekstok

Subject: RE: BS: if charged, would you leave...
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 07:22 PM

Well, Clinton, I never claimed that any of the things I was saying contained any logic. On the other hand, I don't think I was being particularly smug, either.

Subject: RE: BS: if charged, would you leave...
From: kendall
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 07:16 PM

I prefer to donate by things like putting a $50.00 book in the auction with 100% to the Mudcat, plus buying a calendar which I look at once. (There were a couple of pictures I looked at twice)If you want to know whose pictures I looked at twice, PM me! To answer the question, absolutely, yes I would.

Subject: RE: BS: if charged, would you leave...
From: Gareth
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 07:12 PM

Ahhh ! The real Spaw !

But remember folks

Charges Bad

Donations Good

or - " from each according to their capacity !"

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: if charged, would you leave...
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 07:10 PM

This is not a pub... it's a web site... there's a HUGE difference...

One is not ALLOWED to simply go and SIT in a pub... at least not around here... Yer either a customer or you're out on your ear! So that's just one fallacy in your logic...

And no... most of the places I play do not charge a cover charge...

I didn't say anything about donations... You wanna donate, knock yourself out... Just don't expect anyone else to, and don't look so smug because you do and maybe I don't.. you don't know if I do or not...

The easiest and most effective method of treating Mudcats money woes is banner adds... one full page of them that people can go and hit to generate revenue... anything else is a stop gap, and isn't gonna be HALF as effective... But Max don't wanna put up banner adds for reasons that are his own... fine...

The idea of a paid members only site works great for porn on the net... for Mudcat, it'd be the death knell...

gnu

Don't pray to your god or gods for me, and don't do things on my behalf without asking me if I WANT you to... you're just deluding yourself...

Subject: RE: BS: if charged, would you leave...
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 07:08 PM

Nah Carol....Ol' CH would just suggest the barkeep hang up another sign or two and then want a free brew...........LOL...........Belly-up to the bar CH, you can have one on me!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: if charged, would you leave...
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 06:12 PM

Hey Clinton. When you perform at pubs, I'm assuming you get paid. Does some or all of the money they pay you come from cover charges? I know that hanging around here isn't really like going to see someone perform in person, but for a lot of us, it is a lot like hanging around a pub. Would you go hang out at your local pub and not do anything to help support the establisment? Ever? You would at least buy drinks and not just take up real estate at the owner's expense, right?

If it costs money to cover the expenses of this site, what's wrong with pitching in to help carry those expenses instead of leaving it all to Max to sort out? Even if it's just in the form of donations rather than a fee?

Subject: RE: BS: if charged, would you leave...
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 05:58 PM

I would be willing to pay a fee. But I don't think I could afford $10 a month. However, if a fee had been required in order for me to check out the site when I first came here, I probably wouldn't have joined.

Subject: RE: BS: if charged, would you leave...
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 05:21 PM

Not ten bucks a month although on occassion I donate. Woiuld it be a better site?on't know. Maybe. Will it stop trollers. flamesrs and plain old rectal irritants? No. Have a good day all, Neil

Subject: RE: BS: if charged, would you leave...
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 04:42 PM

I would- and do- contribute periodically. I'm one of those persons who does not like monthly bills so I tend to pay ahead. Knowing how important this site is to me, I would pay if charged.

On the other hand, if I were new, I would NOT pay in order to check it out- and that means I would require an extended period of time free of charge.

I agree with the concept of requiring registration in order to start threads. We can (HA!) always ignore the occasional irrelevant or unpleasant or vicious post inside a given thread...

One thing that has not been discussed is whether it would be possible for a whatever-reason-nonmember to PM a member and request that a certain thread be started so that s/he could request info or contribute the same. If that is possible to do, might it not be a good suggestion on the banner or on the Newcomers' thread?

Ebbie

Subject: RE: BS: if charged, would you leave...
From: gnu
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 04:35 PM

No, not until my donation "ran out" and I didn't have enough $ to pay for the next month. Donate what you feel is appropriate and fits your budget... kinda like what's done now. It'll all work out as long as noone leaves it up to the other guy. Speaking of him, Clinton... don't feel bad - I gave part of my donations on your behalf.

Subject: RE: BS: if charged, would you leave...
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 04:21 PM

And if you left would anybody notice?? No agenda either, just thought I'd throw in the thought.
Failte.....Giok

Subject: RE: BS: if charged, would you leave...
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 02:49 PM

No, I wouldn't pay.

Most of my posts are answers to questions other people have. I wouldn't pay for the privilege of finding lyrics for strangers.

Besides, as others have said, there are lots of free alternatives anyway.

If there was a 'one off' charge for the DT, I'd probably pay that.

Subject: RE: BS: if charged, would you leave...
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 02:33 PM

Right! I can't afford $10 a month either. I said PER YEAR, though. Couldn't y'all afford $10-$20/year?

Now let's see, Max said there were 9000 members X $10/year--hey, that's a helluva website!

Though Jon is right too--if the management is bad, it won't matter how much you pay to keep the trolls out.

Subject: RE: BS: if charged, would you leave...
From: 53
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 02:28 PM

We could not afford $10 a month right now, but when I could I would.

Subject: RE: BS: if charged, would you leave...
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 02:16 PM

Would I be able? I'm not sure. My finances have improved a little over the last 2 weeks but I still don't think I could commit myself to a monthly $10.

Would I leave? I think that even if I was able to pay, I would leave, partly as I don't like membership subscriptions, partly as there are other free folk music resources that I could make use of and partly as I would rather invest that sort of money in a project of my own.

Re the comments on quality: I can see that charging a fee would discourage trolls - I mean you wouldn't want to keep paying to have your membership yanked or to have multiple personalities!

Overall though, I see quality as a management issue and you can have lousy paid managers and very dedicated volunteers who do a good job.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: if charged, would you leave...
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 02:02 PM

I have never paid for anything on the net after basic access, and I'm not about to start now...

Subject: RE: BS: if charged, would you leave...
From: annamill
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 01:49 PM

I know Susan. I would like to too. Bill, Kat and Sage, I wasn't ignoring you. I was just swept up by guests comment. I guess just donating is good.

A