From Max: State of the Union Address

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: s&r
Date: 14 May 06 - 05:11 AM

With a lot of pleasure I have pay-pal'd a contribution towards the expenses of mudcat.

This has been and is one of the finest resources I have used, as well as being an entertaining read. There's a lot of interest in the UK; we like the contact with the US and Canada and Australia and New Zealand and Guam etc etc. For myself I take mudcat to be non-ethnocentric.

It's a bit like a club - some members do all the work, some enjoy the facilities, and some moan.

I shall regard payment towards mudcat as a subscription to a club which I value.

Max - thanks. Joe et al - thanks for a thankless task. Dick, Pene etc thanks.

To all those who respond so positively for requests for info - thanks.

To those who share their (sometimes bizarre) humour - thanks

Stu

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 May 06 - 05:10 AM

There is no point in setting numerical limits on posting, as all that will mean is the ego and mono maniacs stopping when they reach the limit set, and either continuing as a Guest, or starting again after 24 hrs have elapsed. Don't forget the Mudcat covers so many time zones so the crap will continue on a 24/7 basis whatever.
Along with others I also think that those who are so sure that their opinion is more important than anybody elses including the site owner, should depart forthwith.
It is not necessary to be foul mouthed or insulting to be thought of as a pain in the arse, monotonous or self opinionated postings can be just as alienating.
I think that to regain the lightness of touch, and the depth of knowledge, that Mudcat has been reknowned for, the people whom Max has suggested might do better for a break, should take that break, and take it soon.
Giok

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: GUEST,pattyClink
Date: 13 May 06 - 11:23 PM

I'll get some cash on the way asap.

Chip24, good to see you de-lurk. Take the money you would gladly buy folks a pint or 2 or 3 with, and stick it in the mail. Dani too.

Folks, while it is nice to make suggestions about what would be more convenient to you, Max REALLY doesn't need a lot of 'gee, if you'd rearrange the site or charge fees, well THEN i'd pay'. Reprogramming a site means time and money, so it's up to Max when and if he wants to tweak it. It is imperfect, it is wondrous, get over it and stick some cash in the till regardless.

Now, as if I can't hear myself, here's my little suggestion, only because it seems glaringly needed, as evidenced by this hijacked thread.   We need Ignore lists.   That way, the site stays 'open' but the hundreds of genial contributors can block out the truly pesty posters. It would also encourage cookie-problem Guests like me to have a reason to go to the hassle of re-setting cookies and decloaking, in order to have their ignore lists function. I know there is a reason there have not been ignore lists, but maybe it's past time to reconsider that decision before all the fun is gone for everyone.

If not that, block for the rest of the day anyone who posts more than 30 times a day, or permanently block those who are just plain driving everybody crazy.

To simply keep saying, "please stop" to monsterposters is like listening to a mother say 'don't do that honey' five hundred times while the kid destroys the grocery store, it's even more agonizing than what the kid's doing. it doesn't work. After months and years, it hasn't worked. At some point momma's gotta stick the kid in the station wagon and remove him from the situation.

Again, if you have enough cash to buy a few beers at a session, you have enough cash to help foot the Mudcat. Do it.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 May 06 - 08:47 PM

Subject: RE: Mudcat Help&Trouble Forum? (Complaint)
From: Bill D - PM
Date: 11 May 06 - 12:04 PM

"CENSORSHIP" is a loaded word meaning "I don't like it"....some of us see it as "editing improvement".

How would YOU define censorship?

And how would YOU define online bullying?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 May 06 - 08:40 PM

Censorship and Attitude rolled into one
Music posts by Guests to be reviewed
Proposal for members only posting of BS
I may disagree with what you say-
Your favourite Shamblism
Why all the closed threads?
Non posting of judgements week
Do we need to curb the troublemakers
Do you need to be censored?
Censorship and Attitude rolled into TWO
Mudcat Help&Trouble Forum

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 May 06 - 08:25 PM

Dear Max

Can you confirm if the Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team's latest proposal to restrict the BS posting to members only and to 'review' all the Guest posting on the Music section - is going to be finally accepted by you or not.

This has already been answered - at this point, it is merely a proposal, one of a number of options we have been exploring. We do not currently have things in good technical order and cannot implement this proposal now, even if we wanted to. -Joe-

And if this not going to happen (in the near future) - is our forum going to continue to be divided by and subject to the current imposed and personally motivated censorship actions that the Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team has recently and publicy admitted have failed to impose the required 'peace'?      

We try to be objective in our editing, and not to show favoritism. We delete only the most blatant offenses, to the chagrin of some who would like us to exercise stricter control. You may not believe it, but we really do try hard to be fair, and we have no reason to show favoritism or prejudice - what good would it do us? We just want to keep the peace. -Joe-

Or is there now going to be a change to this approach? An end to anonymous editing button perhaps?

Editing is not anonymous. It's all done in my name. If you have a question, contact me privately. If I've already answered, don't ask the same question again. -Joe-

Without answering these questions - any requests for financial support are really asking posters to sign a blank cheque. Especially any posters who may wish to provide some support and to continue posting as a guest - but who may find themselves excluded - should this proposal be accepted.

Few, if any, of our donations come from our anonymous Guests, so this is a moot point.
Your questions have now been answered - although most of them had been answered before. Perhaps now it's time for you to stop asking them. -Joe-

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 May 06 - 06:30 PM

Particularly since none of the 3 people on the list (including the sociopath, who is now finally gone) have, as far as I can tell, volunteered personally to contribute financially to Mudcat. If you're not going to contribute in anything but absurdly aggressive argument with the owner of the site (with incredible remarks about laps etc., yet)--that proves Max's point beyond doubt.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 May 06 - 06:24 PM

If I were in charge, I wouldn't delete one post on this thread. For one thing it proves beyond question that Max was absolutely right in his short list of people who should pack up and leave--at least temporarily--til they realize why Max has had the reaction he did.

The most obvious observation--amazing that articulate and intelligent people don't seem to realize it--is that the people on the short list seem to think that their opinion is worth as much--or more--than that of Max. Dead wrong--and they'd best learn that.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 13 May 06 - 05:57 PM

"All I can do is shrug wearily and say..."C'est la vie!" No matter what anyone's personal style is, some people will hate it, some will love it, and others will be largely indifferent toward it or only slightly affected by it."

Hear hear... only without the 'wearily'

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 13 May 06 - 05:03 PM

Bravo, I'm with Frank on this pretty much. Bughouse Square in Chicago, and the Dil Pickle Club -- also in Chicago -- were great forums of free speech and Democracy while, also, being rather chaotic ---just like Mudcat. They all burned bright while they existed. I revel in the memories of those people, places, and times.---It was the freedom of the lives lived there and then that still inspire me.

Even those I differ with here inspire me, and they precipitate more clarity in my own thinking as we, hopefully, move onward and upward.

Be careful, folks. Jumping off a speeding train isn't exactly a smart thing to do. As Max said sort of, now that the train has slowed some, it'd be a good time for some to go.

Art

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: wysiwyg
Date: 13 May 06 - 04:20 PM

.... DT and the music archive will only have long term value to the music community if control of it is wrested away from Max & Dick....

Well, nothing has prevented anyone from taking their free copy of the DT and having their own way with it, no wresting needed. And anyone is free to archive and do what they wish with thread material, as far as I know. I archive the Spirituals permathread on a regular basis, for example, and it would not surprise me if others have saved material from their own area of interest as well.

~Susan

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: GUEST
Date: 13 May 06 - 04:19 PM

"Mudcat remains as a beacon to true democracy"

Sorry, Frank but as much as I admire you personally, that has never been the stated purpose or mission of the DT or it's related music archive at Mudcat.

The intended purpose of the DT & Mudcat forum was to provide a free, searchable online music collection with a searchable archive of music-related posts to support it.

If people want community, they can find it at meet-up.com or Yahoo groups. They could go to Jon's Annexe. They could stay here, for that matter, so long as Max & Dick give the database and archive to someone who values it enough to do the right things with it.

Just release the DT database and music post archive to responsible people who actually care enough and have the ability to make it into something of value to the online music community. Instead of just an appendage to a forum community w/a very high SNR.

Everyone is right. I don't care about this forum, except for the DT & music related posts in the Mudcat archive. I care about genuine and authentic community, and the contempt posters here show for the greater online music community isn't a community value I share.

IMO, Max & Dick should give up their proprietary stranglehold over the resource, and turn it over to people w/open source database and wiki expertise, and a commitment to doing the job right and getting it done.

People here care more about their personal forum community than they do the DT, the Mudcat music archive, or the online and offline music community they claim here to represent. No surprise there.

So why not split the difference? Give the DT & music archive to someone who will do what it takes to get it up to snuff & maintain it at a level that reflects state of the art RDBMS, and commitment to open source wiki type values that allows all users to easily add, remove, or otherwise edit all content quickly and easily, without the need for registration.

Of course, I also know most Mudcat regulars don't have a clue as to what I'm even talking about. This is their one and only online destination, hence their fearful posturing, head in the sand attitude any time people start making suggestions like I am to take the toy away from the children fighting over.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: GUEST,Jerry, Elaine, George & Kramer
Date: 13 May 06 - 04:01 PM

Yada yada yada.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 May 06 - 03:42 PM

In case that was not merely a rhetorical question, MBSLynne...

I go through periods when I read Shambles posts...partly out of genuine curiosity, partly out of morbid fascination...sometimes just for amusement's sake, depends what mood I'm in at the time...and then I go through periods where I get heartily fed up with the whole thing and, like you, just skip over them. I'm in one of those periods now, most of the time. It varies.

I think many others would say the same.

I agree pretty much with your evaluation of this thread at this point. It was a good idea for Max to start it, but it has served to demonstrate very well how badly the place has deteriorated, as you said.

One thing I am bemused by...that some ex-member(s) are lumping me and Catspaw49 together as something on Mudcat they find deeply objectionable in the same way. Wow! That surprised me. That, I was not expecting at all. My goodness!

All I can do is shrug wearily and say..."C'est la vie!" No matter what anyone's personal style is, some people will hate it, some will love it, and others will be largely indifferent toward it or only slightly affected by it. That's the way it goes when you throw together many different personalities and they have to deal with one another in one venue or circumstance.

No matter how hard I...or anyone...has ever tried, they could not please everybody. I am certainly glad not to be a politician, and not to be famous either. It would be like being in hell, trying to meet all those expectations other people have of you.

The best anyone can hope for in this life is to be left alone by other people, in my opinion, and not to be judged by them. Who has ever been so lucky as that?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: CarolC
Date: 13 May 06 - 03:38 PM

You very well may be right, Guest,Former member. I wouldn't know because, as I said, my interest is more in playing music than in studying it's origins.

Underestimating it how, exactly?

If you are only focused on studying what has gone before, you might not see this, but the forum can provide people who are interested in studying the folk process with an excellent window into how it works.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Stringsinger
Date: 13 May 06 - 03:33 PM

Max,

I sympathize with your position and am sad for the frustration that it causes you. I agree that there are people out there who only want to push others around with their ego and their resorting to vindictiveness. This is so unfortunate.

But Mudcat remains as a beacon to true democracy (which needs to be returned to the U.S.) I enjoy hearing about what's going on in the other countries as well as here and am grateful for the contributions of those from "across the ponds".

I think that the best thing to do is to totally ignore certain people who are not offering anything constructive to this forum.
There are certain names that come up and when they do, I gingerly skip over what they have to say because I can predict the mean-ness of their posts. Others I listen to very carefully because their wisdom is gratefully received. In a forum such as Mudcat, it's almost impossible to censor a passionate outcry even if it takes on mean and scatalogically immature references.   We live in a world where there are all kinds of views and some of them may appear completely nutty to others of us.

I completely understand your frustration and you certainly are entitled to it. I tend to pick and choose whose posts I read and find it a lost cause to react to some and will address others that I deem are sincerely opposed to my views if I feel there can be a constructive dialogue that can take place. Eventually we get to know the "players" in the Mudcat cast and can accept or reject on the basis of how they respond.

Keep up the great work! Mudcat is so important not only to the folk music community but for the very idea of fostering the free information in a democratic environment. I am so grateful for Mudcat and hope that I've been able to contribute something useful to it.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 May 06 - 03:32 PM

In Morocco when you're sitting outside having a drink you always stick a glass on the table with sugary mint tea and mint leaves, so the wasps get in there and stay in there and enjoy themselves being waspish, and they don't bother other people.

This thread is now rather like that. Enjoy, and hang around here, friend wasps. Stay as long as you like. Permanently perhaps...

Meanwhile the people who enjoy the Mudcat and are interested in helping it along had better mnove on to other parts of the forum, starting with that thread Big Mick is opening up.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Maryrrf
Date: 13 May 06 - 03:31 PM

Lynne is right. If I were a moderator I would already have deleted several of the messages that appear in this thread.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Midchuck
Date: 13 May 06 - 03:29 PM

Suppose everyone who has posted to this thread counts his or her posts so far and pledges to sent that many dollars a month to support Mudcat? That should give Max enough to get by, right there.

Peter.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: GUEST,Former member
Date: 13 May 06 - 03:26 PM

Underestimating it how, exactly?

I'm not saying DT & the Mudcat archive should turned into an exclusively academic resource. What I am saying is someone needs to rescue the DT & the music post archive before it is lost through inept and incompetent "maintenance" and relegated to the internet poorly managed archive graveyard.   

Many people active in the folk music community in North America, Europe and beyond who either never posted to the forum or no longer post here, happen to recognize that DT and the music archive will only have long term value to the music community if control of it is wrested away from Max & Dick.

Many people search the DT and never bother with forum, because it is obvious in a couple seconds perusing that the forum is made up of a bunch of boobs.

The standards need to be raised, and serious expertise, time, and money put into the collection & archive to make it viable and valuable to lay people, musicians, and scholars, now and into the future.

I have seen absolutely no evidence of that happening. Not now, not ever seems to be the motto. The forum playground is the thing now, the DT & music post archive be damned.

It is precisely that attitude that makes this place worthless to everyone in the folk music community, except the small handful of people who kidnapped the forum years ago, and continue to hold it hostage--guarded by bullies like Max, Joe Offer and Big Mick.

The only posts that have made any reasonable suggestions in this entire thread (like I said earlier, a lot of heat, no light here) are Cruiser's 12:49 post, and pdq's 1:46 post.

Now, I can even agree that Joe Offer might be doing a fine job of doing what he is doing. But my point is, that isn't what the DT & music archive needs people doing.

What Max, Joe & the clones are doing is likely just what a chat forum dominated by bullies and baboons needs to have done. But to equate/conflate that work with the work that needs to be done on the DT/archive for the benefit of the online folk & blues music community is seriously delusional.

If Max wants to know how this place turned into yet another Brit dominated "what's on" board w/an off-topic rant & rave section for adults w/stunted ego development, he need only look at what he put his energy and resources into.

There is a reason why you won't find bluegrass, newgrass, old time, gospel or blues music people here.

This place is complete and utter turn off to most people looking for online music resources and communities. Those of us who ever came here to begin with, left this place behind years ago. We found other more valuable music "treasures" both online and off, where we aren't made to suffer the fools and SNR one is forced to endure here.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: MBSLynne
Date: 13 May 06 - 03:25 PM

Just as a 'by the way' to this increasingly ridiculous and obnoxious thread.....does anybody else actually READ Shambles posts? I certainly don't.

Max this was a good thread to start and badly needed, but it's just proving the point of what everyone has been saying about the deterioration of Mudcat. What a pity.

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: CarolC
Date: 13 May 06 - 03:19 PM

Wear it as a badge of honor, LH. I know I would (and probably do).

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 May 06 - 03:06 PM

No, not really. There are some situations that are just like that, and there's usually not much that can be done about it, I guess.

The things I lose sleep over are mainly with people I have to deal with in 3-D. Family and stuff like that.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 13 May 06 - 03:00 PM

It's not unconsious, nor a routine... nor does Jerry have anything to do with it....

I hate -you-.... simple as that....

I don't lose any sleep over it, and I hope you don't either

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 May 06 - 02:52 PM

Now, don't unconsciously slip back into the "bad cop" routine just because of me and Jerry, Clinton... We all like you in your kinder, gentler version.

I'm glad to hear you care about solving Mudcat's problems. That's good.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: CarolC
Date: 13 May 06 - 02:47 PM

In your case, Guest, 13 May 06 - 02:33 PM, "anti-Israel" is in the mind of the beholder.

But you and the "Former member" are underestimating what will be left behind.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 13 May 06 - 02:45 PM

Off ya go LH.... and while yer at it, do us all a favour and stay there...

Some people are honestly interested in finding ways to resolve Mudcat's difficulties

If you don't wish to participate, bog-off

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 13 May 06 - 02:41 PM

Mild and reasonable?!?!?!

That's defamation of character Jerry! I'll have you DONE for that!!

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 May 06 - 02:40 PM

Boy, you can just feel the love, can't you...!

Well, I suggest that anyone who needs some relief from all this should turn off their computer and pick up their guitar or other instrument and practice it. Or have a good meal out with a friend.

Real life beckons...somewhere out there.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 13 May 06 - 02:38 PM

Man! This thread is exactly what Max and so many of us are fed up with ... a ramble with the shamble, with sudden mildness and reasonableness from Clinton. And nary a word from MG..

Can the Circle Be Unbroken? Apparently not..

Jerry

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 May 06 - 02:35 PM

In all seriousness........

Perhaps Max could be asked by those who wish to exclude the public and not see views from posters they don't like - to create AN ADDITIONAL private member's only club especially for Mick and Co?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: GUEST
Date: 13 May 06 - 02:33 PM

"One other thing: one day the current members will be gone, as in dead and. Others just gone, like me and many others who once came here for the music.

And what will remain?

A million post archive, almost entirely made up of fart jokes and Shatner threads.

Now there is a great legacy future generations will flock to in search of expertise on folk music."

No, there will still be thousands and thousands of the accordionist's endless anti-Israel rants.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Amos
Date: 13 May 06 - 02:32 PM

Skarpii:


DON'T YOU DARE do any such thing. I will hunt you down and force you to sign back in, using liberal doses of akvavit to have my way with you if you try it!! :D


A

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: skarpi
Date: 13 May 06 - 02:30 PM

Jesus Maria --    grow up people

this is enough....... I have had it ..... I have been through this
thread and Shamples he own more and less
the message in the thread ???? my friend what is wrong ? Max and Dick
are not controling people here and if you along with the
former member witch can´t come here with his/ her name think
they are so don´t let them you can ignore it noone tells you
that you have to take any part in any thread here, it´s your
choise. But watch your manners like I have said and Amos
as well " words can hurt " .

But who cares what I have to say about this .... these are just
my thoughts,

I have been called a racest here only few weeks ago , and I thought
of leaving Mudcat for good, and never come back , but I thought
about this for avile and why should I leave becouse some
sad people can´t watch theyr manners ? I feel sorry them
and how sad person they are .

My dear friends , take the swords and put them on the table
and start to act like we should be doing , be folks with
good manners and respect of each other.

I may be a fool ................bud I still love you all
you are all a great people in your own way

well folks , I am BBQ outside and it may be burned while I
am writing this down so All the best Skarpi Iceland.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 13 May 06 - 02:23 PM

"I would close it"
So, just because you disagree, other peoples opinions and suggestions are of no value?!?!
Get off your high-FN-horse Mick....

"I will be starting a different thread to talk about supporting the place"
So another pointless beg-a-thon? Great... that'll help a lot.... Even if you don't like it, THIS thread IS about supporting Mudcat.... I gotta ask, what are you afraid of about that?

"Max has quit posting"
D'uh... he always does when push comes to shove....

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: GUEST,Dani
Date: 13 May 06 - 02:18 PM

I am one who does not take time anymore to participate in threads. Anything I have to offer the Mudcat musically is totally eclipsed by the knowledge of so many others. And, feeling like I was at an overcrowded cocktail party, I hit the road a long time ago, rather than feel overwhelmed by the buzz, chatter and bullshit. So, it definitely is not what it used to be for ME, but it'll be something nice for someone somewhere.

Instead of spending time in the forum, I foster the friendships I've gained by way of Mudcat, try to make time in "real" life for music having been encouraged by the Mudcat, and would gladly pay an annual fee/contribute to a regular fundraiser so the work can continue.

Random acts of financial kindness are too scattered for me. I don't have time to pay attention to the auction. Just ask me to pay for membership and access to the database and/or forum, and I gladly will. Wait for me to remember that the whole thing costs money and Max does it out of the kindness of his heart, and it won't happen.

Dani

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 13 May 06 - 02:17 PM

"The real value of Mudcat isn't the community. It is the DT and music expertise..."

There's no reason at all why it can't be both

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 May 06 - 02:17 PM

You are entitled to your preferences, but you are not entitled to impose your preferences on others.

That sounds like far too much sense to be acceptable as Mudlogic. I am sure it reads like sedition to some.............

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: GUEST,Former member/current occassional drop-in
Date: 13 May 06 - 02:16 PM

One other thing: one day the current members will be gone, as in dead and. Others just gone, like me and many others who once came here for the music.

And what will remain?

A million post archive, almost entirely made up of fart jokes and Shatner threads.

Now there is a great legacy future generations will flock to in search of expertise on folk music.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Big Mick
Date: 13 May 06 - 02:15 PM

Actually what most people see in this thread is the current crop of mobsters taking over the thread. Max did what all of you wanted, and now you ain't happy because he told you what you are.

Let's see, we have the Minnesota Monster and other weighing in with their smug "know it all" "all you ignorant cretans should just listen to my wisdom" attitude.

You have Shambles continuing on with his pathetic and repetitious crap, even though he finally got what he wanted. Max responded and Roger didn't like what he said.

So you will take over the thread and it will become you all whining again.

Have you noticed that Max has quit posting in this one? So am I. But I will be starting a different thread to talk about supporting the place. It will be moderated from the standpoint that if anyone drifts off the topic, those posts will be deleted.

To those that detest the place and what it has become, it is my opinion that you should leave. The overwhelming majority of the posters are clearly in the camp of reasonable controls and leaving the rest as it is.

Max, it is your thread buddy. I would close it, but the decision is yours.

Mick

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Bill D
Date: 13 May 06 - 02:14 PM

gee, "former member", we didn't realize we weren't having fun or learning valuble stuff or establishing friendships or sharing lives.

How good of you to clarify for us what a miserable existance we lead in this woebegone old forum.

(...ummm...don't let the door hit you in the butt on your way out.)

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: CarolC
Date: 13 May 06 - 02:13 PM

I have to say, Guest, Former member, there is something I really have to disagree with about what you are saying.

There is more than one way to "care about the music". If you are a scholarly type and the kind of resource you want are all of the print variety, then perhaps you are right.

In my case, I am not at all a scholarly type. My interest is in playing music, much more than in just learning the background of it. (I am an instrumentalist, and there is only so much that can be discussed about tunes.)

Where this site has value for me (and the value of it is more precious than gold for someone like me), is in finding and meeting with people who can help me become a better accordionist. And people who can help me find good sources of tunes to play. All of these things I have found here, and continue to find here. Were it not for the forum, I would still be struggling in isolation with trying to learn an unpopular instrument (with no help from anyone at all), and with no idea where to find the kinds of tunes I like to play.

Because of the Mudcat forum, this past October I was finally able to meet, in person, the accordionist whose playing I most value and respect. The benefit to me of this one experience has been incalculable. It has set me forward in my playing and in my understanding of my instrument many years as compared to where I would be otherwise.

Your preferences for music sites on the internet are based on your particular approach to music. You are entitled to your preferences, but you are not entitled to impose your preferences on others.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: GUEST,Sheila
Date: 13 May 06 - 02:12 PM

Good afternoon.

I can't understand why those who keep complaining about this marvelous site continue to post their displeasure. I suggest you just drop out if you don't like it.

For my part, a daily pleasure is reading the music section on Mudcat, and I have learned much from the many threads I hadn't even known to question. It's an international Music 101, only better, and I was delighted when the B.S. area was sectioned off.

I have encountered only the finest and most rewarding responses to any query from me over the years, and acknowledge that my technical expertise is way below my musical interests. I can only be grateful to Mudcat and the many of you who endorse and encourage it.

My check is in the mail.

Sincerely,
Sheila

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 13 May 06 - 02:12 PM

Oops....

"All non-musical content should be shit canned."
Hear hear!

"You get it by having mature adults policing one another, and keeping the forum on-topic. "
Hear hear!!!!!!

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 13 May 06 - 02:09 PM

As far back as the first time I came here looking for information, I recall that the DT was of little or no value.... That has more to do with the nature of information I was looking for than what's in the DT...

Even with that in mind, I'd say that Mudcat has NEVER 'ceased to be about music'

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: GUEST,Former member/current occassional drop-in
Date: 13 May 06 - 02:05 PM

Blocking IPs as a means of keeping people out of the forum won't work. The simple technology to get around that is easily and readily available all over the web.

But one thing the luddites here have never understood, which explains everything. You don't get a good forum by blocking IPs and having an in-group play internet nanny. You get it by having mature adults policing one another, and keeping the forum on-topic.

That isn't a cure-all, because all web forums and groups have personality conflicts, get dull after a certain amount of over-use, and finally a shelf life.

If someone shut this forum down tomorrow and was willing to create a valuable digital collection with accompanying music information archive out of DT & the music posts, I'd be all for it.

The real value of Mudcat isn't the community. It is the DT and music expertise in what now would be a very small percentage of the posts.

Problem is, the current regulars see it the other way around. They consider themselves to be the more important resource. Ass backwards, IMO.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 13 May 06 - 02:02 PM

Sod you Roger, you got between me and myself again!

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 13 May 06 - 02:01 PM

for "been" read "bean", "being", "bing" or "be" - your choice

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 May 06 - 02:00 PM

User Name Thread Name Subject Posted [PM] Max Objectionable Material (50) RE: Objectionable Material 16 Apr 98
>snip<
Please critisize and disagree and bitch and moan all you want, I dig that.
Max

It remains a fact that complaints are NOT discouraged by Max but encouraged. And there is no rule limiting them on our forum. If the Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team cannot dig this - perhaps he and others who cannot dig this - can go form their own forum - where there is a different understanding and every possible limitation can be imposed?

If Max has changed his mind and complaints are not now welcomed by him from his invited guests - perhaps he can tell us this?

If our moderators do not like complaints but are happy only with threads full of compliments - perhaps if they cannot stand the heat - they should not be in the kitchen and feel they have some right to throw pots and pans at the customers?

Perhaps our moderators would not get any complaints at all if some of their conduct did not give cause and if they were prepared to make even the smallest adjustment to the example some of them set and to the complaints that are received?

For it now appears is only any complaints about the conduct of (some of) our moderators that are thought to be a problem. For any complaints made about and judgements made about the worth of fellow posters are positivly encouraged. Especially when they are in agreement with the personal judgements made about certain easy targets - by (some of) our moderators....

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 13 May 06 - 01:59 PM

Thanks for everything Max - PayPal duly visited.
As about the magic having gone: I 'll have to differ with you and Homeless on this; what magic I have found in Mudcat has been "brought in" by others. So from time to time the offerings might not have been to my taste (but much of the time they are). And some of that magic is of the lasting kind (witness several unions of 'Catters).

It might not have been the original intention, but (for me) Mudcat is more than simply a tool like the DT or a forum to post questions to and receive erudite answers. I treat it as a community of real people, a geographically dispersed village, with its village fools and argumentative types, its experts and its pontificators, and its workaday "salt of the earth"'s. It has many inhabitants with whom I might disagree from time to time - but plenty with whom I agree and several firm friends that I have made because I met them here.

So it has already played a significant role in my personal life, and that "magic" can never been taken away, even if it shuts down tomorrow.

Filakia