BS: Home Education UK

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 11:13 AM

I would take on any teacher, at any teacher's conference, Dave, if you're out there, willingly! I would talk, if necessary rant and rage, to any politician, any TV presenter, anyone from within the Edukashun System itself...and I would do so willingly, because I know, from my own kids, from my friends' kids how disturbingly unhappy many, many children now are.

No you wouldn't Lizzie. You'd be too busy organising the folk festival you promised to organise a couple of weeks ago and the march you promised to organise a couple of days ago.

Or haven't you started to do those yet? And I offered to organise a coach load of people in support. I have to tell you in all sincerity, I have stopped doing that and I have told the people who signed up that it may not go ahead.

What evidence do we have apart from yours that your children are as you say?

I am not, as some are, querying your right to educate your children as you wish. Since you have indicated in the past that both you and they have dyslexia I think it might have helped had you both had the benefit of a sympathetic dyslexia teacher. But hey ho, we can't all have what we wish for.

But you still haven't answered my question - are you still educating your child(ren) at home? If not, are they still being educated, where and at what level. Simple enough question I would have thought.

And before you answer "Personal, not telling you" - you brought them into the discussion in the first place. But you'll have forgotten that by now.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Acorn4
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 10:27 AM

Although I've now retired from teaching, I still get the government "propaganda" magazine published by the GTC through my letterbox.

In this months there is a feature about someone who has set himself up as a "laughter facilitator", teaching children and teachers how to laugh.

One of the things I noticed in the last years I was teaching was that a sense of humour was no longer to be found in the staffrooms, due to the fact that everyone was breathing down each others necks. The climate of fear can be doing neither children or teachers any good.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: theleveller
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 10:18 AM

To put it another way, you may have reservations about the NHS but you wouldn't remove your child's appendix on the kitchen table.

Would you?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 10:18 AM

In the 1970s Raymond S. and Dorothy N. Moore conducted four federally funded analyses of more than 8,000 early childhood studies, from which they published their original findings in Better Late Than Early, which concluded that, "where possible, children should be withheld from formal schooling until at least ages eight to ten."

According to the Moores their analysis suggested that children need
"more free exploration with... parents, and fewer limits of classroom and books," and
"more old fashioned chores – children working with parents – and less attention to rivalry sports and amusements."

However they only advocated a later start to formal schooling which they felt "encourages peer dependence"

In contrast Rob Reich wrote in The Civic Perils of Homeschooling (2002) that homeschooling can potentially give students a one-sided point of view, as their parents may, even unwittingly, block or diminish all points of view but their own in teaching.
He also argues that homeschooling, by reducing students' contact with peers, reduces their sense of civic engagement with their community.

As many children in America are educated at home for religious reasons (the last census stated over a third) other arguments against have included -

Lack of socialization with peers of different ethnic and religious backgrounds;

The potential for development of religious or social extremism;

Children sheltered from mainstream society, or denied opportunities that are their right, such as social development;

Potential for development of parallel societies that do not fit into standards of citizenship and the community. (as demonstrated in some of the more isolated 'cults')

Of course registration and effective monitoring, as carried out in other European counties where home schooling is legal,* should be able to recognize where education becomes 'indoctrination' in race hatred for example.

*Homeschooling is illegal in Germany (with rare exceptions).
'Generally Illegal' in Spain, the Netherlands and Sweden.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: theleveller
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 09:43 AM

"No, levels, it is the COMPLETE OPPOSITE!   You could not be MORE wrong. A child will learn what they love to learn."

Well, you know I'm going to disagree with you there. There are things that we NEED to know and these have to be taught even where there is a disinclination to learn them. That is the skill of a good teacher. Giving a child a well-rounded education gives them new insights and provides the tools they need to follow whatever course they later choose, having been able to sort through the options available. Someone who want to be a bricklayer must first learn to mix cement, cut bricks, use a spirit-level etc. no matter if these don't seem attractive. The end will well justify the means.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Gervase
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 09:27 AM

It's a lovely theory, but it comes unstuck when you get to university entry.
Cambridge and, for all I know, Oxford, will sometimes interview a home-educated applicant if they can be persuaded that the applicant is up to scratch, but that is as rare as rocking-horse crap - and in the wider university marketplace the only place where I know that happens is with mature students, and they have to undertake at least a foundation course to prove they can hack a degree-level course.
Thus the home educated child is effectively disbarred from tertiary education.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 09:19 AM

"By taking a child out of school you are, effectively, removing him or her from the education system for the rest of life, with all that that implies."


No, levels, it is the COMPLETE OPPOSITE!   You could not be MORE wrong. A child will learn what they love to learn. A child will learn at their own pace, their natural pace.

School is the most unnatural system ever devised...and most people have been so indoctrinated into it, that they will never think outside the box.

I have no boxes.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: theleveller
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 09:17 AM

"But most of all, MOST of all, they are deeply, DEEPLY unhappy!"

Lizzie, I know you have had this experience and I sypathise with you, but it is certainly NOT the norm.

Most children in my experience, and the experience of mrsleveller who is an education professional and works with a wide range of schools, often in deprived areas, is that, IF THEIR PARENTS HAVE THE RIGHT ATTITUDE, they have a good experience of school. All my 4 children have enjoyed school and, when my elder daughter was unable to attend for 2 years due to ME, the school went out of its way to help.

"They get detention, ridicule, told off, humiliated, verbally abused, bullied, kicked...."

I simply don't believe that this happens nowadays. Any school where it did would certainly quickly fall foul of OFSTED.

The scenario you paint, whilst serving to make the point of what happened in your isolated case, does not, in any way, represent the true state of education in the UK today.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: theleveller
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 08:24 AM

By taking a child out of school you are, effectively, removing him or her from the education system for the rest of life, with all that that implies. Even if you are a qualified teacher you will not be able to give the in-depth teaching needed in secondary education. The education system may not be perfect but must surely be better than leaving a child at the mercy of one or two opinionated and, perhaps, neurotic parents who are convinced that they know best and, almost invariably, don't - and who will simply be instilling their prejudices into their offspring without giving them the opportunity to form a balanced view, based on their own experiences.

Being part of the education system gives children a far broader, more varied and certainly more balanced education than they can possible ever hope to achieve at home, exposing them to views and activities away from the narrow spectrum of their parents.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 08:12 AM

Tug, I love you! :0) x

Maeve, I love you, too! :0) x

Glory Halleluliah!!!

And YES, read John Taylor Gatto and John Holt....then go into many of our secondary schools and see what is happening, not just in inner city schools either....

Our kids, as a nation, need love! They do not need any more effing bloody edukashon.....It's driving a vast amount of them to the brinks of suicide!

And yes, the numbers of children who are being removed from school by their parents and home-schooled, is rocketing..and THAT is another reason why 'they' are now trying to stop it all, making it harder and harder and harder to do.

Sod 'em and all who support 'em!

NEVER before have our children NOT wanted to learn as they do not want to learn at present. NEVER before has our young population been so dumbed down, so controlled, so apathetic.....and it's happening because, from the moment of their birth, they are put on that Conveyer Belt of Life, *by their parents*...

We have abused Motherhood. We have removed Femininity. We have stolen the parents from the children and stuck them inside Factory Farms of Edukashon, some so big that the teachers don't even know the names of the children.

Children go to school with knives, to protect themselves! They live their lives in hostile situations, 5 days a week, whilst having to learn things they hate! They get detention, ridicule, told off, humiliated, verbally abused, bullied, kicked....on and on .....and what do 'the parents' say?

"Oh, school has always been like that. That's life, that's the way it is and you have to toughen up, kid!"

So the kids toughened up, and they toughened out. They've lost compassion, kindness, sweetness....They buy books of the best 'put downs' to humiliate each other, they are cruel and rude and cranky...

But most of all, MOST of all, they are deeply, DEEPLY unhappy!

I would take on any teacher, at any teacher's conference, Dave, if you're out there, willingly! I would talk, if necessary rant and rage, to any politician, any TV presenter, anyone from within the Edukashun System itself...and I would do so willingly, because I know, from my own kids, from my friends' kids how disturbingly unhappy many, many children now are.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Gervase
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 08:06 AM

An education is only as good as the teacher. A good teacher, be it in a school or at home, is priceless, but for home educators the potential pool of inspiring teachers is rather small. And, sadly, I have met quite a few rather dim people who don't seem to realise that education is a full-time occupation and not simply a matter of plonking the kids in front of the PC or TV while they get on with other things. In my view, if you couldn't cut the mustard in a classroom you shouldn't be teaching at home.
The sort of attitude shown by the reaction to the NSPCC's comment is one that I've come across here in West Wales (where home education is very common among counter-cultural types, downsizers and would-be hippes) - a lot of parents seem to be paranoid about any LEA or social services involvement.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 08:00 AM

maeve brings a US perspective on this discussion which might be worth expanding a little

In America home schooling regulations vary widely from state to state.

Alaska, for example, has virtually no oversight of home schooling; parents do not even have to notify the state officials that their children are being home-schooled. - similar to the current situation in the UK where a child has never attended school

Most states however have some form of registration for home-schooled children and some requirements for what the child must be taught.

Some rescind the right to be home-schooled if a student does not reach a certain score on standardized tests.

For example, New York, which has some of the strictest laws, requires that parents teach a wide range of subjects (including substance abuse and traffic safety) and file quarterly reports to ensure that progress is being made. Furthermore, if the student scores in the bottom third of a standardized test, the state has the right to force the student into public school.

In freedom loving California, parents are now only allowed to home-school their children by filing as a private school and enrolling only their children.
Rachel F. Moran of the University of California, Berkeley, argued that regulation was necessary to protect children. "We want parents to have the freedom to homeschool, but we don't want children to become captives in a homeschool that doesn't prepare them for work or civic engagement as a functioning adult," she said.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 07:46 AM

Well, lots of good old prejudice flying around here. Huge numbers, not just a handful of cranks and religious fanatics, opt for home education and different degrees of flexi-schooling.They do so for al sorts of reasons, but too opften because their beloved children were not flourishing in the school environment, were often bullied or picked on because of a disability or difference, and came alive with a well thought out and guided programme of exploration in the real world.
   School is a necessary evil for society, it can never provide a natural and authentic learning environment. pwerhaps sceptics would benefit from reading some John Holt or John Taylor Gatto.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: maeve
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 07:46 AM

The majority of home school students and families with whom I've had the pleasure of working here (in Maine and New Hampshire) have been healthy, responsible, and productively involved in their communities. As an educator, tutor, librarian, and story hour presenter, I have observed a real dedication to and effective use of both state mandated and family generated materials.

When a family is equipped to handle the challenges involved in meeting State standards while focusing on the needs and interests of teach child, the quality, integration, and depth of learning is meaningful and life long. Such students are fortunate to have such a wealth of learning opportunities, and according to the North American studies I've seen, are more likely to do well in tech schools, college, work, and in social interactions when compared to conventionally educated students.

In my opinion and based on my experience, the best education results when schools and homeschooling families work together to ensure an excellent education for every child; something that is currently lacking in most communities I have known. Homeschooling, like other educational options, in not the best choice for every child (or every adult).

When I see how poorly-conceived testing has taken the place of excellent teaching and learning in so many schools here and in the UK, my personal choice would be to keep my children as far from most schools as possible. Your mileage may vary.

maeve

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 07:40 AM

"To home-educate children in the UK, one does not need a teaching qualification nor any specialist equipment and whilst some families follow a routine for learning, others do not.

There are families known to their LEA as home-educators and there are others that are not (Muckle 1997).

Currently, families home-educating children in England and Wales who have never been to school, are under no obligation to inform anyone

Whilst the school option involves formal assessment and inspection, the 'otherwise' alternative involves neither in any legislative form.

'LEAs, however, have no automatic right of access to the parent's home. Parents may refuse a meeting in the home, if they can offer an alternative way of demonstrating that they are providing a suitable education, for example, through showing examples of work and agreeing to a meeting at another venue.'

DfEE (1998a, point 4)" *


It appears to be particularly this last reccommendation of the Badman report that assessment and inspection of home schooling provision be more formalized, including the option of inspectors meeting with the children themselves, that has caused consternation and extremely angry responses amongst home educators who equate this with their children being perceived 'at risk'

A situation that was provoked by an NSPCC (an independent Childrens charity) policy adviser who during an interview unwisely made an inaccurate observation about a high profile child abuse case -

"Some people use home education to hide. Look at the Victoria Climbié case. No one asked where she was at school. We have no view about home education, but we do know that to find out about abuse someone has to know about the child."

This was immediately made a political issue by a UKIP MEP who demanded his resignation and claimed the NSPCC's "job is to vilify decent parents." advocating complete 'freedom' for parents.


*a description of the current situation by Dr Paula Rothermel C. Psychol. FRSA

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 07:34 AM

.Main Stream Education', for all you patronising people out there...is LIFE.

And your Education begins when you have LEFT school, not when you are incarcerated inside it....

Thank oooo.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Rasener
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 07:23 AM

I personally think that any parents who partake in Home Education, should be made to follow a curriculum and there should be a means of checking that the requirements are being met.
I do not have any issues with regard to the parents having to have a CRB.

Not everybody is cranky, although a parent could be made to seem as though they are cranky, when their child is being bullied and it is not stamped out. If that ever happens to my special needs daughter, I will have no hesitation in carrying out Home Education and be open to CRB checks and help and guidance in supporting the education.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: vectis
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 07:19 AM

I met some travellers in New Zealand who educated their children at home. The government provides them with the materials for all their formal schooling which is posted to the parents and returned by the parents for marking when completed. The parents are paid to ensure the work gets done.

One woman had raised 5 children in this way and four had gone on to college or Uni and she was rightly proud of their achievements. the fifth was still travelling with mum and hadn't yet finished her education but was expected to go on to higher education like the others.

If the Kiwi's and Australians (via bush radio) can organise schooling for at home and traveller kids why can't other countries?

In the UK travelling children really lose out and it is a national disgrace.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 07:18 AM

My daughter's partner is a home-schooled person, it was simply what his mother - a trained teacher - wanted to do with her children.

I think it is dangerous to generalise from the particular, but I would like to know what home educators believe is the optimum age for allowing people back into mainstream education. If ever of course.

And what would the key indicators be that the right time has arrived?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Gervase
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 07:11 AM

I'm with Jack. The majority of home educators I have met have had what one could politely call 'issues', and their offspring have found it difficult to re-enter the educational mainstream for higher education.
Of course there are exceptions, and I have met some very successful people who have been home-schooled, but the majority seem to emerge as the victims of a half-arsed experiment by their parents. As John says, there needs to be a proper framework to ensure that the kids are being properly educated. And not, as in one case I know, of having 12-year-olds taught history by having them colour in pictures of knights in armour and pick what they want to watch on American K-12 websites.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 07:05 AM

I think it's an excellent idea, BUT. There should be set textbooks that all parents should use. In this way a child's progress can be examined by inspectors, and their progress assessed.
The reasons for home education are many, from geographical isolation making travel to school long and difficult, to keeping severely bullied children out of an hostile environment.
In all cases, care should be taken to ensure the child develops social skills, and is allowed, nay required, to have social interaction with their peers.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 07:04 AM

I've met a few parents involved in this over the years. Without exception they were all neurotic obsessional cranks, and the idea of allowing anybody that weird to have total control over a child's experiential environment gave me the willies.

If the kid goes to school, at least you can expect bungling teachers and bungling parents to bungle in different ways and cancel each other out.

Subject: BS: Home Education UK
From: Rasener
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 06:47 AM

This is an attempt to discuss Home Education. Is it right? Should it be allowed? What regulations should be in place? How does it affect you as a parent? Are you a parent who does Home Education and how does it affect you?

Please try not to flame or swear. Put your points calmly and with respect for other people, no matter what their viewpoint.