BS: Home Education UK

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 08:00 AM

'Cured' is such an inappropriate word. These are not illnesses, but a natural part of human diversity.
   What can be done is to teach behaviours which are appropriate to culturally normative institutions. An alternative is not to expose them to these ratyher artificial institutions.This altrnative is normally the reserve of those who have 'independent means.'
In the 1909 edition of the 'handbook of mental deficiency' Tredgold and Soddy noted that a fair proportion of the feeble minded were members of the gentry 'well suited to the amusements of their class', and therefore in no need of socital intervention.King George V's eldest son had 'learning difficulties' but was provided with a secluded cottage, servants etc. No need to cure the rich!

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 07:11 AM

We stopped with agreement from her, taking Ritalin. That is such a terrible drug

It's terrible for some people; others tolerate it well enough for a long time that they don't need any other treatment; for others it's a not-too-bad temporary measure to calm the whole situation down when starting some longer-term strategy. You're suggesting it should be banned, based on a sample of one? A parent of an ADHD kid is likely to end up messianically for or against it, depending on what happened with theirs; someone who sees how hundreds of kids react to it will be less likely to go to extremes.

I suppose you are going to tell me that Autistic children can be cured now?

Only very rarely (taking "cured" to mean "nobody could tell they were any different unless they asked"). But a great many can be helped by appropriate intervention, and the earlier it's done the more likely it is to be successful. (GF/CF diet in particular; waste of time trying years after onset). Getting from total muteness and faecal incontinence to complete sentences and normal toilet use is not cure, but it makes a big difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Rasener
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 06:40 AM

>>Most cases of diagnosed ADHD can be vastly improved or completely cured by changes to the environment <<

Completely cured is bunkem Jack.

They can be taught strategies to help them through their difficult times. I have a daughter who is 18 and has been diagnosed with ADHD. She has problems with her short term memory, socialising and in times of stress or excitement, can get so hyperactive. However she has learned strategies to help her in such scenarios. She will never be completely cured, but she will need to live with it, the best way she can. She has a sensible diet and has always had one. She knows that certain products make her go bonkers, so she avoids them as best as possible. We stopped with agreement from her, taking Ritalin. That is such a terrible drug. however in doing that she had to learn strategies.
We are very pleased with her, as she has managed to get herself into University (only people who understand ADHD will know how difficult that is). She is also spending a year in Holland as an Au Pair and is doing very well.

I suppose you are going to tell me that Autistic children can be cured now?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 05:15 AM

The reason the experts know that there is a difference in the brain "wiring" of people with learning disabilities and ADD as compared to other people, is because they've done brain scans and they can SEE that the brains of people with learning disabilities and ADD work differently than the brains of people who don't.

ALL of them? And PERMANENTLY, no matter what they eat or do? Are you supposing that brain activity can never be influenced by what you eat, what physical diseases you've got, or your daily habits?

Most cases of diagnosed ADHD can be vastly improved or completely cured by changes to the environment - removing dietary and environmental allergens and distracting influences that interfere with sustained attention. A hell of a lot of kids are TRAINED to be attention-deficient by parents to whom a structureless, frantic lifestyle of addiction to hyperstimulation and recreational electronics is normal. Sure there may be a few with some syndrome that isn't responsive to environmental intervention - the diagnosis is simply a phenomenological label. A lot of parents of kids diagnosed "ADHD" just LOVE the model you're advocating because it means they're never going to need to take responsibility for getting TV out of their life, thinking of something more constructive to do with time shared with their kids, and learning to cook. It's just his brain, whoop-de-doo, it's just fine if if I leave him at the Playstation all night.


This is what makes them different from people who have other kinds of problems.

It's a diagnostic label applied to certain kinds of behaviour. You know perfectly well that it is never in practice confined to people who have been through the sort of rigorous workup it would take to identify a brain syndrome that was genuinely and provably not responsive to somatic and environmental treatment. That would take thousands of dollars in every case. It's not like there's an immuno-assay blood test.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 04:30 AM

Home schooling can provide an environment in which children can become more independent rather than less so, because, for one thing, there is little to no peer pressure. And often, home schooled children are able participate in deciding how they will learn, which is usually not the case in schools. If a particular parent feels that they would not be able to allow that kind of autonomy for their kid if they were to home school, and if they felt that their kid needed that, then that parent would not be good candidate for home schooling their child.

As I said in an earlier post, when I was home schooling my son, we belonged to an association of home schooling families who would all get together frequently to provide the kids with opportunities to be with other kids, doing all kinds of activities. Many kids developed strong friendships with the other kids in the association. We lived in a very small town in a very rural and isolated area, but there were a couple dozen home schooling families in our group.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 04:13 AM

The list adds absolutely nothing to the discussion. I only posted it because someone wanted me to provide some background for something I said.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 03:32 AM

I am not sure what a list of famous people who have succeeded despite being disadvantaged adds to the debate.

It certainly does not add anything to the debate about home schooling.

Lizzie, just to make it clear - I have taught in schools - but the vast bulk of my teaching was with mature students whose learning for all sorts of reasons was curtailed when younger. This included those with specific learning difficulties (which covers dyslexia) but there were other reasons why they didn't succeed in school including for example spending a long time in prison.

The student I am most proud of was and still is quadriplegic, and couldn't talk or feed himself and needed 24-hour per day care.

He is doing an M.A at Leeds University having got a 2:1 degree in social policy.

As a matter of interest do you think you could have made a better job of teaching him than the professionals?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: theleveller
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 03:27 AM

"Do they really think that you can ONLY learn by sitting behind a desk with a blackboard in front of you..."

Sorry, Lizzie, but that really does show how out of touch you are with modern teaching practices. Even if you could find one in a school today, you'd have to call it a "chalkboard" - but you're much more likely, however, to find an interactive whiteboard and kids working in groups and on computers.

Aside from the education debate, there are a couple of other areas that worry me about home schooling and, before I attract a tirade of abuse, let be emphasise that I'm talking from my own, personal perspective here.

As we live in a small village with only a handful of children, my daughter's friends (and my son's before her) are drawn almost exzclusively from school. Without school, she would have few friends. Then there are the after-school clubs that she goes to - these, too, are an important part of her life.

I also believe that one of my obligations, as a parent, is to teach my kids self-reliabce and independence. I worry that, if they'd been taught at home, this might have been stifled. As I am 60 and my daugter is 9, there's a strong possibility that I won't be around to help with many of the important decisions she'll have to make so I want her to have the knowledge and confidence to make her own decisions (and not to be afraid to make mistakes)and I believe that this can best be achieved by interacting with as many people as possible and that her school is the right environment for this. It has certainly worked with our son and it is something that my parents were wise enough to do with me. I can honestly say that this approach has helped me get through a number of difficult periods in my life and I am eternally grateful for my parent's foresight.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Rasener
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 03:17 AM

Steve Winwood dropped out of school at the age of 14 which caused a right kerfuffle at the time.

Not sure if he carried on with tuition of some sort.

Don't suppose he was that bothered as music was his love and Spencer Davis group was his destiny.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jx3g_sOiOb8&feature=related

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 03:11 AM

1960 is a pretty arbitrary limit. There's no reason to use that one except for the purpose of skewing the argument in the favor of the ones who want to use it. What the list shows us (and most of the people on it lived far more recently than Joan of Arc) is that schooling outside the home is not necessary for people to accomplish great things.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Gervase
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 02:59 AM

I don't think citing Joan or Arc of Leonardo da Vinci as examples of home-schooled successes really adds very much to the debate. Far better to narrow it down to those educated at home post 1960. Then the household names drop to, er...

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 01:45 AM

Nope, I think it was definitely directed at me. I still would suggest going back and reading what I have said (hint: in more than one post, I said that parents should do what they think is best for their children, whether that is home schooling or public or privately run schools).

I did not say that home schooled people are commonly found in the top of the creative fields. I said that people with learning disabilities are commonly found among people who are the top in the creative fields. People with learning disabilities often have to be very creative and innovative just in order to get by in the world with their limitations. And often, since they are less encumbered by their disabilities when engaging in creative endeavors, it is natural for them to go into those kinds of fields when they grow up. This is a good combination of influences for people to excel in creative endeavors. Rick Fielding is an excellent example of what I am talking about.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 01:33 AM

Was any of that post directed at me? If so, I would suggest going back and actually reading my posts rather than inventing things for me to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 01:30 AM

So, before I go and get some sleep, what are we saying here? That the people who do well at school or put in hours of practice and hard work are to be decried because they followed the 'norm', whatever that is? That having an unkown percentage of gifted geniuses who were outside the standard educational system somehow proves that everyone who is home schooled is more likely to be gifted than those who do well in standard education? Just where is this line of reasoning taking us?

Let me state once again that no-one. apart from one person. is saying that one type of schooling is better than another. They are complimentary (or is it complementary? Lack of schooling for you...)What started off as a reasonable question has become, once again, a vehicle for tilting at windmills.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 12:37 AM

I started that list of famous people with learning disabilities on the wrong page. Here it is starting on page one...

http://www.greatschools.net/LD/managing/famous-people-dyslexia-ld-or-ad-hd.gs?content=696&page=1

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 10:39 PM

I don't have any percentages of top musicians and artists who did badly in school and who have/had learning disabilities. That's why I didn't give any before. But it is common. Here's a partial list of famous people with learning disabilities. A lot of them are people who were engaged in creative pursuits (and I include inventor in that category)...

http://www.greatschools.net/LD/managing/famous-people-dyslexia-ld-or-ad-hd.gs?content=696&page=3



Just for information, here's a partial list of famous people who were home schooled...

http://www.home4schoolgear.com/famoushomeschooler.html

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 09:47 PM

It might be devastating for the parents to be told of the problem and provided with label, but parents often don't understand what it's like for the person with the disability. The kid just wants to know that their problem is not total inadequacy on their part. Having a name for it makes it something that the child can understand and work with. If the schools are using that label to refer to anything other than the disorder itself and are pigeon holing kids because of it, that supports what some of us have been saying about how badly kids with learning disabilities are served in the schools.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 09:40 PM

The reason the experts know that there is a difference in the brain "wiring" of people with learning disabilities and ADD as compared to other people, is because they've done brain scans and they can SEE that the brains of people with learning disabilities and ADD work differently than the brains of people who don't.

This is what makes them different from people who have other kinds of problems.

To people who have had learning disabilities and ADD their whole lives without knowing it, it is extremely liberating to have a name to put on their problem. Accepting that one has a learning disability that isn't going to go away is hardly shutting the mind to only one alternative forever. It is the first step in finding a way to cope with the problem instead of beating one's head against it one's whole life.

And I didn't tell my son that there is nothing to be done. I told him that there are good reasons why he has the problems he does, and he shouldn't ever let anyone make him feel ashamed of the way he is. And I taught him to not ever be afraid to get help if he needs it, and I taught him to never give up on himself. My son has been the way he is since birth. Teaching him how to live a good life despite his differences is hardly the same thing as shutting my mind to all but one alternative forever.

What I object to the most strenuously is when the poster who believes that learning disabilities can be gotten rid of blames a parent who is doing a damned good job of raising their kids for their kids learning disabilities. Blaming the parents of people with learning disabilities is no more enlightened (and is every bit as ignorant) as hiding people with visible physical disabilities away in an attic where no one can see them. It's just as archaic, just as ignorant, and just as ugly.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 08:50 PM

"I totally disagree that the term learning disability should not be used by anyone but the professionals who are working with the child"

That is your experience Carol but my experience is that parents I have known have been devastated to have their children with quite mild specific difficulties in spelling etc - which can occur in people of all abilities - labelled with this particular all encompassing 'label' which has become synonymous with impaired intellectual development in the UK

According to the British Dyslexia Association.

"Dyslexia can occur despite normal intellectual ability and teaching.
It is constitutional in origin, part of one's makeup and independent of socio-economic or language background.
Some learners have very well developed creative skills and interpersonal skills, others have strong oral skills.

Some have no outstanding talents.

All have strengths."

Dyslexia does not confer creativity on people - I only wish that was true - but people with this condition are just ordinary Joes with the usual range of skills who sometimes are quite adept at developing personal strategies in order to cope with study etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 08:49 PM

I would suggest that a lot of the top musicians and artists did poorly in school, and many of the probably have learning disabilities. That seems to be fairly common with very creative people.

I would love to see some statistics to back up that statement. How many? What is the percentage of top musicians and artists who did badly in school? How does it compare to the number of emminent scientists who did badly? How does that compare to the number of everyday Joes and Jills who did badly. I would be very surprised if the differences were more than a couple of points but as I can find nothing to back that up I will not suggest it is true.

I do know that some top names in all fields were academicaly very gifted as well so I am not sure what the relevance to this discussion is I'm afraid. But then again it is 0150 in the UK and I have still got to 0700 to go...

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 08:42 PM

The system can be improved, no doubt but "formalized child abuse"? Maybe just a bit over the top?


   No, based on observations of my own kids and many talks with parents. SATS were always voluntary for my kids....teachers didn't like it because they were high scorers....they seemed glad if other kids were away on sats day though!.
   The symptoms are all too real....but kids are resilient, and with love and belief from significant others will survive well enough. sadly this isn't true for all kids.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 08:20 PM

CLEFT PALATE IS NOT A LEARNING DISABILITY. It is a PHYSICAL disability.

So what? In the conceptual scheme of most of humanity for most of history, it meant you wrote the person off and didn't think of trying to do anything about it. Just as people with brain disorders like absence seizures got written off. For the person on the receiving end of a disabling label, it makes no difference at all which bit of their anatomy the label is stuck on.


It's BECAUSE I taught him that although he couldn't get rid of his learning disabilities, he could learn how to compensate for them, and because I taught him to never listen to people who tried to make him feel like he wasn't doing his best, that he was able to compensate for the faulty brain wiring that was causing him so much trouble in the schools.

Brains are not made of wires and mechanistic analogies never helped anybody.

Do you in fact know that your son doesn't have something in the same category as absence seizures or gluten intolerance - a condition you don't know the aetiology of, one that maybe nobody knows the aetiology of yet, but which might be easily fixable by adding a chemical or subtracting an environmental toxin? (A lot of parents of autistic kids have now learned not to take the experts' word for it that nothing can be done).

There is often no meaningful distinction between "curing" a condition and "compensating" for it. But there is a distinction between wanting to learn more about what can be done for it and shutting your mind to all but one alternative forever.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 08:07 PM

I disagree that home schooling parents can't handle kids with ADD. The home schooling environment is perfect for the child with ADD, because the method of teaching can be perfectly molded to the child's style of learning so that the child is always interested and doesn't lose focus.   I know this from experience of having home schooled a child with ADHD.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 07:59 PM

I totally disagree that the term learning disability should not be used by anyone but the professionals who are working with the child. It wasn't until I learned that I have learning disabilities when I was in my 30s that I was able to find a way to benefit from a structured learning environment. It wasn't until I learned exactly what my problems were, and then found effective tools for getting around them that I was able to function well in a classroom setting. Where I had consistently gotten Ds and Es (the lowest grade being F) in school as a child (except in art, where I always got As), when I went back to college in my 30s (after having twice dropped out in my late teens, without ever finishing a semester), I got mostly As and a couple of Bs.

The reason I was able to do this is because I understood the nature of my problems. And I STILL have attention deficit disorder, and have had it all of my life (I believe that ADD is a little sister to autism), so that can't be pinned on my home life as a child. But when I understood why I had so much difficulty focusing, that was when I was able to find ways to create an environment in which I was able, with a lot of effort, to focus and learn, and get very good grades.

But the reason I was so successful after I went back to school as an adult was because I as an adult, and I had much more power and control over my environent. The learning disabilities didn't go way, I just learned how to compensate for them.

And knowing why I have the problems I do also helped my self-esteem a hell of a lot. Because then I knew that the things the schools had taught me to believe about myself weren't true, and that there were very good reasons why I had the difficulties I had in school.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 07:48 PM

I would suggest that a lot of the top musicians and artists did poorly in school, and many of the probably have learning disabilities. That seems to be fairly common with very creative people.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 07:46 PM

I'm not the one who said that learning disabilities can't be corrected. That was I have been told (and what I have read from) all of the experts on learning disabilities I have encountered, including educators. And clearly the person in this thread who thinks they can and that theirs was, didn't have learning disabilities. At least the language one was not. The handwriting one probably is, since that one, according to their own account, hasn't gone away. They've just found ways of getting around it.

CLEFT PALATE IS NOT A LEARNING DISABILITY. It is a PHYSICAL disability. Thank god I knew better than to believe the teachers who thought and believed like the person who is saying that learning disabilities can be corrected. If those teachers had been allowed to prevail, my son would have been as totally fucked up by the time he reached adulthood as I was. But instead, he has a university degree and a very good job.

It's BECAUSE I taught him that although he couldn't get rid of his learning disabilities, he could learn how to compensate for them, and because I taught him to never listen to people who tried to make him feel like he wasn't doing his best, that he was able to compensate for the faulty brain wiring that was causing him so much trouble in the schools.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 07:24 PM

It is also important to collect information about the family history/background to rule out any serious emotional disturbances.

And maybe a bit more than that. A lot of "ADHD" is the result of what might be called home antischooling - when what goes on in the home environment makes it impossible for the kid to learn anything either there or at school. Things like sexual abuse and parents keeping the kids awake all night with drunken arguments are the well-publicized ones. But even in the absence of anything that might attract police intervention, a kid is never going to learn to sit and think (either at home or school) while living in a home environment where there is never any silence, nobody ever settles down to a sustained task that takes any time, and the only escape from non-stop TV and videos is being left alone in your room to play millisecond-response computer games all evening.

One peculiarly sick situation I know of in a Scottish region near here: the local authority set up a very effective network for parents of kids with ADHD. The parents were largely in control of it but professionals were on call as needed. They used a wide range of interventions, everything from Ritalin to ensuring that kids ate meals on a regular schedule, laid off junk food and Red Bull, and didn't have TVs or computers in their bedrooms. None of this stuff is rocket science and it didn't take too long before the parents figured out how to manage the problem. It didn't take much longer before a lot of them decided not to manage it. The benefits paid out to families with an ADHD kid were high enough to make a substantial difference to the weekly budget. An ADHD kid was effectively an extra wage earner, so long as they stayed messed up enough.

Something like that is equally a problem for home-based or school-based education, but the answer is never going to come from the parents.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 07:24 PM

Michael, I totally agree with you...and you've touched on something hugely important, the fact that so many kids are put on Ritalin and other drugs, supposedly to make them 'behave' in school.

Let's put school on a drug, one that will make some of those who work inside it see clearly, perhaps for the first time in years....

"For someone who slags off teachers unmercifully she is remarkably reluctant to share her secrets."

I have only EVER slagged off crap teachers who damage children, sometimes for life. If everyone else did the same we'd er...have no crap teachers. I have ALWAYS praised and respected brilliant teachers, Dave, as well you know, so WHY do you persist in trying to spread entirely the wrong message about me, I wonder..............



"Her privilege of course - but I still believe it it selfish."

Yes, it is my privilege. No, it's not selfish, it's just damned annoying (for you) because you haven't got any more 'weapons of vocabularic destruction' that you can twist, spin and spit out against me and about me.

I think the expression, which I learned in school is 'Tough Shit' which just goes to prove that school CAN be good for the occasional thing.


"But at least we now know it consists of taking them out of school, and then on trips. Oh yes! and osmosis."

Yup. And two more lovely people you could never wish to meet. Unlike some bitter teachers who are so hellbent on proving their point that they make themselves looked er...somewhat odd.

School is absolutely the correct place for you, Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 07:14 PM

My younger brother used to scream and tear his clothes off and go running down the street. Now he's a software programmer making more money than I'll ever make. If he was a kid today, he'd be doped up on pharmaceuticals and/or institutionalized.

When did he change and what - if any one thing - changed him?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Goose Gander
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 06:54 PM

One-size-fits-all fits noone. Homeschooling works very well for some kids, not so good for others, could be disastrous in some cases. Same for formal classroom instruction. Ideally, there should be a range of choices open to parents and children. My younger brother used to scream and tear his clothes off and go running down the street. Now he's a software programmer making more money than I'll ever make. If he was a kid today, he'd be doped up on pharmaceuticals and/or institutionalized.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 06:52 PM

If a child is good in arithmetic but not in languages or if the child is good in languages and is poor in computing the numbers, it could be a case of 'Specific Learning Disability' although to be honest I hate these type of 'labels'.

I agree with Latha Vidyaranya, a counselor for children with learning, emotional and behavioural problems

"These labels (should be used) only to exchange information between professionals and to understand the remedial measures required for the child, but not to demoralize the child or the parent."

"Once we have identified a child with these difficulties, what do we do?
The child needs an assessment by an Educational psychologist or a Special Educator who may administer various tests to find out the its abilities in the areas of reading, writing, spelling and arithmetic.
It is important to rule out any hearing or vision problems before conducting these tests.
It is also important to collect information about the family history/background to rule out any serious emotional disturbances."

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 06:47 PM

Just another thought. (Best thing about working nights, waiting for something to go wrong, is that you think a lot...)

I wonder how many of our top musicians,artists and scientists agree that education is a bad thing? How many of them achived their status by osmosis and a little love? I wonder how many of them got to the top without some bloody hard work and lots of practice? I suppose they are all victims of the mysterious THEM as well...

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 06:26 PM

I would suggest that problems that are labeled "learning disability" but can be gotten rid of are not really learning disabilities, but some other problem.

A learning disability is a problem with the brain wiring, and cannot be corrected. It can only be worked around.

Who gets to decide what can't be corrected? You? How good are you at diagnosing absence seizures, parasite infestations or Wilson's disease? How good are most parents at dealing with sexual abuse within the family when it affects children's learning?

You're just playing with words. You've defined a condition there can be no real-world test for.   It's a secular version of the Calvinist doctrine of election.

Thank fucking Christ nobody took your attitude with the problems I had. And they certainly could have done - there have been times and places where nobody expected people with cleft palates ever to speak normally or take part in ordinary civic life.

Children need some sort of protection against being crippled by the low expectations of authority figures. And the authorities most likely to have disablingly low expectations are their own parents.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 06:09 PM

"Osmosis" is a great way for many children (and adults) to learn. That's how I learn the best.

I agree - some things are learnt by osmosis. It isn't the only way. Some things are learnt best by practise. Sporting skills for example. All I have ever done (constantly) is ask Lizzie to share the secret of the way she has educated her children - for educate them she says she has done.

For someone who slags off teachers unmercifully she is remarkably reluctant to share her secrets. Her privilege of course - but I still believe it it selfish. But at least we now know it consists of taking them out of school, and then on trips. Oh yes! and osmosis.

Never mind she'll be back soon to tell us how she is organising a march for all of us to go on with banners against the Labour Government saying "Fuck You" as she said we all ought to do.

Oh yes and she is busy organising a folk festival in Torquay for people who are kept out of "top of the bill" spots by conspiracy.

Not that she is a conspiracy theorist of course. Heaven forfend.

And Lizzie you only bother me when you write unsubstantiated garbage. The problem is that is quite frequent.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 06:09 PM

My son had some teachers who, like one of the above posters, believed that learning disabilities could be gotten rid of. They were the worst thing that could possibly have happened to him, because instead of helping him find ways of working around his problems, they were forcing him to be constantly beating his head against them. People like that should not be allowed to teach children.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 06:07 PM

Careful Dave. Too much examination of evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 06:03 PM

I would suggest that problems that are labeled "learning disability" but can be gotten rid of are not really learning disabilities, but some other problem.

A learning disability is a problem with the brain wiring, and cannot be corrected. It can only be worked around.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 06:01 PM

The person who had a good experience of the schools despite learning disabilities is very lucky indeed.

I had none of those good experiences. I was targeted for abuse and ridicule by my teachers (and also by the principal of the school I attended from the second grade to the fourth grade). This, of course, set up the social dynamic among my classmates that taught them that it was perfectly ok for them to also target me with abuse and ridicule. No help was given other than the advice that I needed to try harder.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 05:45 PM

Nobody can make dyslexia or any other learning disability go away. I know this because I have multiple learning disabilities myself. I've lived with them all of my life so far, and I will continue to live with them for the rest of my life.

Which means nobody's managed to make yours go away and nothing more. There are many problems labelled with the grotesquely stupid term "learning disability" that are COMPLETELY curable, by methods ranging from surgery on the eye muscles to dietary modification to hearing aids to pharmacotherapy, and it would be obscenely abusive to withhold such interventions.


What can be done is to help people find ways to compensate for their learning disabilities.

Which is something the collective expertise of a school system is more likely to figure out than a parent using their kid as the chosen battleground for a private grudge.

I had two successive things to compensate. With a cleft palate, I needed speech therapy to speak clearly. It worked well enough that the only people who can now tell there's anything odd inside my mouth are speech therapists. And my handwriting was bad enough at first that the teachers thought I might have a mild form of cerebral palsy. But first they tried a variety of different strategies until one clicked. My writing is still a bit slow, but elegant enough that I do calligraphic signs as part of my job using my natural script. Somehow I rather doubt if any of the homeschooling advocates posting here could have pulled either of those off, and with Lizzie as a mother I'd have been brought up to assert my right to speak with no intelligible consonants and scrawl stuff as legible as a barbed wire fence. (My own mother certainly couldn't have done it, but had the sense to defer to the experts).

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 05:45 PM

Do they really think that you can ONLY learn by sitting behind a desk with a blackboard in front of you

I have just spent a while going back through the thread looking for the people who have said that the ONLY way to learn is sitting behind a desk etc. I did not find any. Lots of examples of people saying that there is room for both. Lots of people supporting home education and many remarks claiming that schools are just plain wrong. None saying it is the only way. Just who are the people saying this?

While I was looking I also spotted who exactly was ridiculing the system and other posters, who was making long winded personal attacks and who believes that they know what is best, end of story. I suggest a look through to draw your own conclusions.

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 05:40 PM

Well I was luckier than you Carol as, although a classic dyslexic from an inpoverished background, I recieved an excellent education from teachers, who, although they had no concept of my inabilty to spell and absolutely dreadful dysgraphia, nevertheless were generally supportive and some were amazing mentors and role models that I will be grateful to for the rest of my life.

But these are all individual, personal experiences and do not constitute an argument for insisting that all state schooling is as excellent any more than it is all 'crap'

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 05:24 PM

By the way, most of my education, I provided my own self, since the schools taught me very little other than to believe that I was totally inadequate, stupid, and lazy. I will take all of whatever credit is due for my education.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 05:20 PM

And yet, ridiculing hasn't helped anyone to put forth their arguments. It only adds rancor to the thread.

I would suggest that the person venting against the system is entitled to their feelings based on their experience of the system, and that others are entitled to not agree. But I don't see the use of ridiculing anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 05:15 PM

Carol you have presented some impassioned but cogent arguments for home schooling in America; whatever form of education you received you are a credit to it as an independent thinker with a clear mind

However Lizzie has claimed some serious inaccuracies - such as all home educators are to be considered potential child abusers and placed on the 'at riak' register in the UK in support of her rather extremely expressed opinions, and I tend to agree with David el Gnomo that 'the ridiculous does beg to be ridiculed'

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 05:10 PM

Since "ridiculous" is a subjective term, I would think that someone with good social skills would know that if everyone engaged in ridiculing everyone else whom they found ridiculous, there would never be any constructive communication between people.

I notice also another behavior that children learn in the schools being displayed in this thread. That's the tendency to gang up on someone whom the larger group has decided to target.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 05:10 PM

Absolutely, Carol!   Absolutely!

Do they really think that you can ONLY learn by sitting behind a desk with a blackboard in front of you...


And tonight, I'm sitting here listening to News at Ten, hearing the story of a Nursery, down here in Plymouth, which was run by paedeophiles. 3 of them, 2 of them women, took photos, sexually abused the children, and the parents don't even know which children they abused...

One of my daughter's teachers was sent to prison for paedeophilia too.
He'd rigged up a camera in the classroom...got the young girls to reach up for books...and SNAP, photos of under their skirts were soon on the internet. Of course, one of the other teachers knew about it, he even warned the man concerned to stop it..but he didn't warn the children, or the parents...and so it went on for years....

Cool, huh...

School..it works..everytime.....?
Yeah, right!

But never mind, people, line up over there, put your babies into the nurseries, leave them with the childminders, put them in the hands of complete strangers...

Absolutely terrifying....but sadly....true.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 05:04 PM

Ridicule is far from a valid argument, Carol, but the ridiculous does beg to be ridiculed.

(Folkie)Dave, how long has it been YOUR education system? Hpw come you own it and can I have some of it please? Can you confirm that this is all YOUR doing? (Just as an example of the above...)

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 04:58 PM

BTW - I am part way through a 12 hour nightshift. It will get worse...

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 04:58 PM

Math is learned by osmosis when a home schooling parent bakes a cake with his or her kids, and shows them the numbers and fractions that are needed to make the cake. It is learned when a home schooling parent shows their kids how to measure and cut wood, and to draw a plan for building a bookshelf.

Really, the lack of imagination shown by people here shows me that the public schools didn't do them any service.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 04:57 PM

"But then when we look a little closer we find that she has done little to teach her children apart from take them away from school and on holiday. Their education has been by osmosis. Clearly all that guff about different learning styles means nothing. Learning is about osmosis. Osmosis is all it needs.

I feel maybe the education system need no longer tremble."


What the f*ck are you talking about Dave?   

You do realise that you've become totally obsessive about me, don't you?

I have no wish to share anything with you, let alone information on how I educated my children.

YOUR system 'educated' my daughter for 10 years, and failed, miserably. I did one helluva lot better.....and nope, you ain't gonna get a detailed lesson plan from me, because, unlike you, I'm not up my own arse about lessons.

I've two intelligent, kind, compassionate children. One had a job at 13 earning the money for his computer, on which he finds out anything he wants to know...The other has been headhunted by The National Trust, who knew she had chosen to not take any 'school exams' but were very VERY happy to employ her despite that fact. She now has two jobs and has recently bought her own car, paid for her own driving lessons too.

And your problem with my children is WHAT, exactly?

Your problem with *me*, of course, is that you have never got over the fact that I spilt the beans, way back, when you PMd me to say how much you liked the photo of me that Sam had put on his site.

Hell, hath no fury like a man scorned, eh?

Now, get off my back...and accept that for me, for my children, Home Education has been a great thing.

If I had my time over again, I would NEVER send my kids into a highly antiquated, patronising, de-sensitising system, but that is just my own personal choice.

Oh...and Dave...maybe you like to send children into a school where the teachers all have walkie talkies, where they have a 'Cooling Down' room for children who've been marched out of the classroom by teachers, due to the violent disruption they're causing. Maybe you, like other teachers, would choose to put the most disturbed pupils next to my gentle daughter, in the hope that some of her personality would rub off on them...maybe you think it's OK for every teacher to have a 'panic alarm button' under their desks.....maybe...

Maybe you think it's OK for older pupils to stand at the top of stairwells and pour boiling hot chocolate drink down onto the younger ones (ho ho ho, what a larf, eh!).....

I happen to think it's all a load of crap.

This is because I'm 54 and remember a time when school was NOTHING like it is now....and those things mentioned above, all happened, in Tavistock College and Sidmouth College too.

Maybe you think it's OK for gentle children, and girls at that, to be hit in the face by other girls. I don't.

I'm not gutless. I don't believe in ignoring the blindingly obvious....nor do I believe in accepting crap from other posters in here, Spleen Cringe, who also have an axe to grind over me, because I refused to accept their Myspace page on mine....

So, fellas, you can take you high fallutin' attitudes right away from me, because I've been through BOTH systems, school and FREEDOM...and I KNOW which one works!

So, put that in yer pipes and smoke it!

(Sorry, Joe...but Dave's had this coming for a long time!)